Mounting electrical box to lally column?

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andy

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Aug 17, 2009, 1:14:58 PM8/17/09
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Hi Folks. I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. I hope
to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel lally
columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with
concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is
out. Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has anyone
seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe?

In my old space, I used a large hose clamp. The clamp went around the
column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of
steel rod, back out the knockout. This worked well, but it was a bit
"homegrown" looking.

Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to
mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns?

Thanks for any suggestions you may have.
Andy

Calif Bill

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Aug 17, 2009, 2:15:54 PM8/17/09
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"andy" <ah...@lynnwatersewer.org> wrote in message
news:3a35b65d-dcb9-4054...@18g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...

There are metal epoxies that would mount a plate to the column.


Pete C.

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Aug 17, 2009, 2:22:34 PM8/17/09
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Hilti powder actuated nail gun and Hilti threaded studs (1/2" long, for
steel). Shoot in two studs to line up with the holes in the back of the
electrical box, then secure with nuts and lockwashers. In the event the
box needs to be removed, you can readily grind off the studs with an
angle grinder and touch up paint it.

sta...@prolynx.com

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Aug 17, 2009, 2:37:27 PM8/17/09
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All sorts of masonry anchors out there, I've used tons to mount
various electrical boxes to concrete and block walls. I used to work
in one of the first poured concrete buildings, made about 1917, the
support columns were round and all electrical boxes were mounted that
way with conduit running up to the ceiling to junction boxes. The
column diameters were about 4' on the the floor we had the warehouse
on, would have taken a hell of a hose clamp to span that.

Stan

Bob Engelhardt

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Aug 17, 2009, 5:24:54 PM8/17/09
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Weld a piece of 1/8 x 1 across the column & screw to it. Bob

Pete C.

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Aug 17, 2009, 5:52:52 PM8/17/09
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Bob Engelhardt wrote:
>
> Weld a piece of 1/8 x 1 across the column & screw to it. Bob

That's a lot of effort to cut the piece of 1/8 x 1, drag in a welder,
find power, weld, cool, etc. vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti.

Bob Engelhardt

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Aug 17, 2009, 5:59:30 PM8/17/09
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Pete C. wrote:
> That's a lot of effort ... vs. spending 1 minute with the Hilti.

Not if you don't have a Hilti. And do have a welder <G>. Bob

Pete C.

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Aug 17, 2009, 6:05:37 PM8/17/09
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Home Depot rents the Hilti DX36M (I own one), I'm not sure if they carry
the threaded studs, but you can get them from the local Hilti store.

andy

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Aug 17, 2009, 6:49:16 PM8/17/09
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If I rented the Hilti, could I not just use short nails/pins and blast
right through the back of the box into the colunm?

I do have a welder, but new shop is not wired for it......Until I run
some conduit.

Thanks, and keep the suggestions comming.
Andy

andy

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Aug 17, 2009, 6:55:42 PM8/17/09
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> Stan- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -

The problem is that these columns (I call them lally columns in
Northeast USA) are steel tubes around 4 inches in diameter, filled
with concrete. Will a hammer drill with a masonary bit drill though
steel? I will have to experiment.

Thanks,
Andy

Gunner Asch

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Aug 17, 2009, 9:26:21 PM8/17/09
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Indeed!!

my Hilti has come up missing.....damnit


'In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith
becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact
equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man
because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the
person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...
There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American,
but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag,
the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the
English language.. and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a
loyalty to the American people.'
Theodore Ro osevelt 1907

Gunner Asch

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Aug 17, 2009, 9:27:11 PM8/17/09
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On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 15:49:16 -0700 (PDT), andy
<ah...@lynnwatersewer.org> wrote:

>
>I do have a welder, but new shop is not wired for it......Until I run
>some conduit.


You cant make an extension cord?????????

rangerssuck

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Aug 17, 2009, 10:06:13 PM8/17/09
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Piece of 1" plywood U-bolted to the column.

Larry Jaques

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Aug 17, 2009, 11:02:33 PM8/17/09
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On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 11:15:54 -0700, the infamous "Calif Bill"
<nospam...@ix.netcom.com> scrawled the following:

I don't know if it's to code, so check with an electricaltician (Bruce
Bergman, a Sparky here on RCM), but drilling the column with a masonry
bit is simple, and various methods of fastening through it are to
code. The simplest is a plastic insert in an oversized hole for that
particular screw. It's an additional 5 minutes over the 5 minutes
with the Hilti, but not if you have the masonry bit and don't have a
Hiltiwhammer.

--
If you are distressed by anything external, the pain is not due to the
thing itself, but to your estimate of it; and this you have the power
to revoke at any moment. -- Marcus Aurelius Antoninus

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

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Aug 18, 2009, 7:22:20 AM8/18/09
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rangerssuck <range...@gmail.com> fired this volley in
news:475b0d9a-dcbc-4948...@26g2000yqk.googlegroups.com:

> On Aug 17, 1:14�pm, andy <ah...@lynnwatersewer.org> wrote:
>> Hi Folks. �I am in the process of wiring a basement workshop. �I
hope
>> to have some 110 volt and 220 volt receptacles mounted on steel
lally
>> columns which hold up the first floor. �The columns are filled with
>> concrete, so just screwing my surface mount boxes to the column is
>> out. �Does anyone know how this is done "in the trade" or has
anyone
>> seen this done in a neat fashion that they would like to describe?
>

The common way here is to power-nail a mounting plate to the column.

LLoyd

dca...@krl.org

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Aug 18, 2009, 8:15:53 AM8/18/09
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On Aug 17, 6:14 pm, andy <ah...@lynnwatersewer.org> wrote:

> In my old space, I used a large hose clamp.  The clamp went around the
> column, into the back of the box through a knockout, around a bit of
> steel rod, back out the knockout.  This worked well, but it was a bit
> "homegrown" looking.
>
> Is there a commerically available clip or bracket that is used to
> mount surface mount electrical boxes or EMT to lally columns?
>
> Thanks for any suggestions you may have.
> Andy

I kind of like the hose clamp. Might look better if the hose clamp
was silver brazed to the box and the box painted to match the column.

The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is
cable ties. Quick, Easy, and Cheap. Would look better if some clips
were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box.

Dan

Dan

andy

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Aug 18, 2009, 3:58:00 PM8/18/09
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Thanks for all the replies.
So far, the ramset (Hilti) solution is out in front. I will post to
the dropbox with my solution.


Best Regards,
Andy

Charles Lessig

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Aug 18, 2009, 6:46:17 PM8/18/09
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Years ago I had to tap many 1/4 20 holes in steel angle that had
concrete
poured directly behind it. My solution was to have a bunch of #7
drills to
get through the steel and then I cleared out a space in the concrete
with
a punch so the tap would not get destroyed. The drills were good for
about
one hole before needing to go back to the sharpener.

You could start with a metal drill to get your hole location and not
go
through to the concrete. Then use a sharp carbide drill for concrete
to finish going through the steel and into the concrete. Don't use a
hammer drill while drilling in steel, just rotary. Then use concrete
anchors to hold your box.

Brian Lawson

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Aug 18, 2009, 10:22:30 PM8/18/09
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Hey Andy,

Metalworking group or not, the easiest thing to do is "box in" the
Lally column, with 2 X ?? or even "thinner". "Pin it" through the top
adjust hole of the Lally to keep it in place.

Brian Lawson,
Bothwell, Ontario.

XXXXXXXXXXXXX

Bruce L. Bergman

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Aug 19, 2009, 3:28:14 AM8/19/09
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On Mon, 17 Aug 2009 10:14:58 -0700 (PDT), andy
<ah...@lynnwatersewer.org> wrote:

I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural
steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete
inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced.

Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut
vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column
for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that
won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt
the steel column strength enough to matter.

If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off
to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the
column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when
you trip over an extension cord.

If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube
cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the
same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar
alone to carry the entire load.

(This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel
bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the
steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from
failing.)

You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely
and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a
Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot.

(Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra
hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done
that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...)

--<< Bruce >>--

Pete C.

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Aug 19, 2009, 10:10:52 AM8/19/09
to

"Bruce L. Bergman" wrote:
>
> I would not use a Ramset powder actuated tool on filled structural
> steel lally columns like that, part of their strength is the concrete
> inside, and if you fracture it the strength is reduced.

Not an issue. The concrete provides only compressive strength and that
is not compromised even if it has some cracks in it. The 1/2" long pins
won't fracture the concrete either.

>
> Myself, I'd stay with the hose clamps to attach a chunk of Unistrut
> vertically on the pole, or tack-weld a piece of Unistrut to the column
> for the conduit risers and some flat plate to mount the boxes - that
> won't affect the concrete filling, and small tack beads shouldn't hurt
> the steel column strength enough to matter.

If you're going to weld, just plug weld the box to the column via the
normal box mounting holes and be done with it. It will be a much cleaner
looking job, and again can be ground off with an angle grinder if the
box needs to be removed. I've plug welded several electrical boxes to
frames made of square steel tube and it works fine.

>
> If you attach the Unistrut to a floor bracket and anchor the top off
> to the beam, you only need one hose clamp in the middle around the
> column or a few short tack welds, mainly to keep it from bending when
> you trip over an extension cord.

Good grief, $20 in materials to do the job of $0.50 worth of Hilti pins
and loads, or $0.10 of weld?

>
> If these were open internally reinforced concrete columns (Sonotube
> cardboard forms) I'd still be wary of using a Ramset on them, for the
> same reason - fracture the concrete and you are counting on the rebar
> alone to carry the entire load.

You need to understand that concrete provides compressive strength only,
it could be dry stacked concrete blocks and provide the same strength.
The rebar is always what provides strength against flexing loads.

>
> (This is why they are reinforcing freeway bridge columns with steel
> bents on the outside - if the concrete fractures in an earthquake, the
> steel outer skin will hold all the pieces in place and keep it from
> failing.)

Which is exactly why fractures in the concrete inside a lally column are
irrelevant and why shooting the boxes on with Hilti pins is fine.

>
> You can put a 1/4" hole with a carbide impact drill fairly safely
> and use a plastic anchor or a zinc sleeve and pin fastener, but a
> Ramset can cause a lot of damage with a single shot.

A Ramset or Hilti can cause a lot of damage if used on the web sections
of a non-filled block wall, they will do no harm at all to a concrete
filled steel column.

>
> (Not to mention the fun of a "Come-backer" nail bouncing off ultra
> hard old concrete and moving at ballistic speeds. Been there, Done
> that, sweating my butt off in a heavy jacket for padding...)

Also not an issue when shooting the proper 1/2" pins into the steel
column.

rangerssuck

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Aug 19, 2009, 1:18:09 PM8/19/09
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Besides, the Hilti is kind of like a firearm, and the second amendment
ramifications of this job are huge. Sorry, I just couldn't resist.

Seriously, my initial thought was similar to Bruce's - that you could
really screw up the concrete and compromize the strength of the
column. But Pete's explanation sounds pretty good. The concrete is
only providing compressive strength, a fracture is not removing any
material (assuming that there arent any huge voids), so this should
work fine, and take all of couple of minutes, start to finish. And, it
will smell like gunpowder, which is always good for the folks in this
group.

N Morrison

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Aug 19, 2009, 5:36:41 PM8/19/09
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On Aug 18, 5:15 am, "dcas...@krl.org" <dcas...@krl.org> wrote:

> The obvious solution that would likely be used by an electrician is
> cable ties.  Quick, Easy, and Cheap.  Would look better if some clips
> were screwed to the box, instead of running them thru the box.

You can't attach the box with cable ties. We used saddle strap which
is a cut to fit type of hose clamp. If you can find large enough hose
clamps most inspectors would probably be OK - use two so the box
can't twist. If the box is below six feet feet from the ground you may
need to protect the cables with plastic conduit to that height.

Gunner Asch

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Aug 21, 2009, 7:06:55 AM8/21/09
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One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works
great, less filling.

Gunner

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your
wallet, your ass, and your guns because the sombitch is about to do
something damned nasty to all three of them.

Larry Jaques

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Aug 21, 2009, 8:57:13 AM8/21/09
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On Fri, 21 Aug 2009 04:06:55 -0700, the infamous Gunner Asch
<gun...@NOSPAMlightspeed.net> scrawled the following:

What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir?
(This I -gotta- hear. ;)

---
So far Mr. Obama has used his personally exciting presidency for initiatives
that are spending public money on a scale not seen since ancient Egypt.
-- Daniel Henninger
WSJ Online, 4 June 2009
"Obama's America: Too Fat to Fail
The age of the induced industrial coma."

Bob Engelhardt

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Aug 21, 2009, 9:00:16 AM8/21/09
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Gunner Asch wrote:
> One can mig weld an electrical box up in less than 15 seconds. Works
> great, less filling.

Doesn't the galvanizing fuck up the weld? I think I'd drill the
mounting hole just a touch bigger (to drill off the galvy) & plug weld.

Bob

Lloyd E. Sponenburgh

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Aug 21, 2009, 9:02:33 AM8/21/09
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Larry Jaques <novalidaddress@di\/ersify.com> fired this volley in
news:db6t85dvt8ksdgboq...@4ax.com:

>
> What filler rod do you use to fasten them to concrete columns, sir?
> (This I -gotta- hear. ;)

Larry,
Per this in the OP: "...steel lally


>>>columns which hold up the first floor. The columns are filled with

>>>concrete..."

I'm just guessing plain ol' 6011 ought to work fine <G>.

(I'd still Hilti 'em in)

LLoyd

Calif Bill

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Aug 21, 2009, 1:10:52 PM8/21/09
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"Bob Engelhardt" <bobeng...@comcast.net> wrote in message
news:h6m5o...@news1.newsguy.com...

It is an electrical box. How much force is it going to have to stand?


Calif Bill

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Aug 21, 2009, 1:11:17 PM8/21/09
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"Lloyd E. Sponenburgh" <lloydspinsidemindspring.com> wrote in message
news:Xns9C6E5BFD9AC22ll...@216.168.3.70...

Besides the Ramset is more fun than welding.


Gunner Asch

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Aug 21, 2009, 3:24:37 PM8/21/09
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JB Weld of course!

Didnt they teach you anything?


>---
>So far Mr. Obama has used his personally exciting presidency for initiatives
>that are spending public money on a scale not seen since ancient Egypt.
> -- Daniel Henninger
>WSJ Online, 4 June 2009
>"Obama's America: Too Fat to Fail
>The age of the induced industrial coma."

Whenever a Liberal utters the term "Common Sense approach"....grab your

Gunner Asch

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Aug 21, 2009, 3:25:39 PM8/21/09
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Isnt it amazing how some people just never bother reading ALL the words?

<G>

Gunner, who occasionally does the same.

Gunner Asch

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Aug 21, 2009, 3:27:39 PM8/21/09
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Not really, but if the urge strikes, hit the welding surfaces with a
coarse wire wheel or even a grinder. Just break the galv and the weld
will lift up the rest.

Gunner, who welded a bunch of electrical boxes to his shop walls and
supports (steel)

Pete C.

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Aug 21, 2009, 11:29:00 PM8/21/09
to

No, it doesn't, just don't breathe the zink laced fumes. For mounting an
electrical box to a column, metallurgical weld perfection is not
required, and the galvanizing burns off anyway.

andy

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Sep 1, 2009, 10:50:49 AM9/1/09
to
> Andy- Hide quoted text -

>
> - Show quoted text -

Update on my mounting electrical boxs to concrete filled steel lally
columns:
boxes were mounted using #10 x 0.5" drill-tip screws. The first batch
I drilled the hole through the steel with the drill tip portion of the
screw. I then chipped away a little of the concrete fill with a
hammer and nail. Next I ground the drill tip off the screw with a
bench grinder, finally I mounted the box with the "sawed off" screw.
This was a bit tedious, but still didn't take much time.

The second batch I just leaned into the drill-tip screw and mounted
the box in one shot. Some of these went in a little crooked, but will
hold the box on just fine.

I guess my summary would be: if you are not bothered by the screws not
going in perfectly normal to the back of the box, then to just bear
down with the drill tips and go to town. If you are a perfectionist,
you may want to go with the drill, chip, grind, mount program
described above.
I promised drop box photos, but it really is not that exciting and my
pics didnt' come out very well.

Thanks for the help,
Andy

Ray in NH

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Nov 19, 2021, 9:18:06 PM11/19/21
to
replying to andy, Ray in NH wrote:
Try two (2) Walker 35337 Hardware Clamps, available at auto-parts stores.
These are 3-1/2" diameter muffler clamps, with heavy-gauge steel "saddles" and
3/8" U-bolts. Drill matching holes through the back of the box and the saddles
of the clamps, then attach toe box to the saddles with machine screws and nuts.

--
for full context, visit https://www.polytechforum.com/metalworking/mounting-electrical-box-to-lally-column-195152-.htm


Michael Terrell

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Nov 19, 2021, 11:24:24 PM11/19/21
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You replied to a 12 year old post.

For context, polytechforum.com is a crap web portal to Usenet. Even Google groups works better.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 20, 2021, 6:56:17 AM11/20/21
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"Michael Terrell" wrote in message
news:9e7c250e-1f05-4fac...@googlegroups.com...
----------------------

Nevertheless muffler clamps are very useful to attach things to round tubes.
I have a steel shelf rack braced to a lally column with a muffler clamp and
3/8-16 threaded rod, and I used them to temporarily attach boat winches to
the legs of tripods to hoist the 200 Lb gantry track into position overhead.
For that I bought 1/4" larger clamps and padded under them with strips of
1/8" steel to avoid denting and weakening the legs. So far the ones I bought
all have had inch-sized threads.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 20, 2021, 11:16:16 AM11/20/21
to
And muffler clamps are cheap. I tend towards making a purpose built
round clamp/mount with one or two bolts (depending on application) out
of aluminum for jobs like this, but I recognize that not everybody can
do that or has piles of failed mold projects laying on the scrap cart
that they can salvage for the purpose. A muffler clamp the right size
can be implemented in mere minutes. Well... not counting the time to go
to the store and buy one, which could take longer than making something
in my shop.



--
This email has been checked for viruses by AVG.
https://www.avg.com

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 20, 2021, 1:08:10 PM11/20/21
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"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snb70b$9fi$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
----------------

I watch for common items that can be misused to solve unexpected design
problems quickly, if not permanently. For instance EMT has the ID of Sch 40
pipe sizes while chain link fence posts and tubing has pipe OD. Some sizes
of EMT telescope into fence tubing.

The rubber bulb from a $5 siphon hose is part of the gas tank pressurizer I
made to prime the carbs of small engines that I ran dry before storing.

I do like you and machine clamps for permanent outdoor use from scrap
aluminum. In the 80's I traded something I couldn't use for 60 Lbs of bar
stock ends from a scrap dealer and haven't consumed more than half of them
yet. One such custom clamp supports the top end swivel ring for my rotating
antenna's guy lines.

I don't have CNC (or a DRO) and need to cut the round opening with a boring
head, so for me a trip to the store may be quicker.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 20, 2021, 2:02:46 PM11/20/21
to
My last two orders of bar stock were over 500 lbs each. Not big as
orders go, but decent size orders for me. Some days I do miss when a
haul like yours felt like a real score. There is a a certain inherent
appeal to scoring some stock you can just use for whatever you need it
for isn't there.

I think with a more basic shop I might make a clamp like that mostly on
the lathe. It could be done all on the lathe, but its easier I think to
drill for the clamping bolts on the mill or even on a drill press.

If I ever have time to do any foundry work I've got lots of little melty
bits and a little alloying bits metal to mix in to make it pour better.

Michael Terrell

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Nov 20, 2021, 3:41:47 PM11/20/21
to
I didn't say they were bad. I was pointing out that the OP likely wasn't waiting 12 years for an answer. se see replies to old post on other newsgroup from this same web portal, and they are mostly to ten year or older messages.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 20, 2021, 4:45:33 PM11/20/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snbgoi$uc0$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

On 11/20/2021 11:07 AM, Jim Wilkins wrote:
> ...

I think with a more basic shop I might make a clamp like that mostly on
the lathe. It could be done all on the lathe, but its easier I think to
drill for the clamping bolts on the mill or even on a drill press.

-----------------------

I would too, if my lathe's tailstock was in good enough condition to drive a
hole saw to rough out the opening (and save the plug). The trade school kids
used its spindle as an anvil horn. The dealer swapped in another old spindle
but it's not perfect either.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 22, 2021, 2:34:34 PM11/22/21
to
Sounds like maybe a sleeve job would be a good project for that tailstock.

While not ideal you could trepan out the slug if you are that gungho to
save it.

David Billington

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Nov 22, 2021, 3:21:29 PM11/22/21
to
This gives you one person's approach used by someone with a Harrison
M300
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/m300-tailstock-refurb-boring-and-sleeve.39064/
.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 22, 2021, 5:28:38 PM11/22/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:sngrc6$1c6l$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

On 11/20/2021 2:45 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

>
> ...The trade school kids used its spindle as an anvil horn. ...


Sounds like maybe a sleeve job would be a good project for that tailstock.

------------------

That's my plan, if the lathe ever rises high enough on the to-do list. What
would you sleeve it with?

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 22, 2021, 6:06:52 PM11/22/21
to
"David Billington" wrote in message news:sngu45$qbl$1...@dont-email.me...

This gives you one person's approach used by someone with a Harrison
M300
https://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/threads/m300-tailstock-refurb-boring-and-sleeve.39064/
-----------------------

Thanks, that's pretty much what I had in mind. The first step might be
fitting a narrow ring of drill rod steel into the mouth of the opening, and
if it's not good enough reboring the entire hole.

Most of my work is short, held in collets or the 6-jaw, and the tailstock
only drills a pilot hole that I then bore straight, concentric and to a
running or press fit with another part.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 22, 2021, 7:11:32 PM11/22/21
to
I guess that would depend really. I think most tailstocks are just cast
iron, but I'm not sure I would feel very comfortable pressing in a cast
iron sleeve in cast iron. Maybe some sort of bronze bushing material.
I've used hardened straight shank collet chucks spinning in oilite
bronze bushings before. I don't know what the longevity would be. When
I wear one out I'll let you know. I don't think the moving wear would
be significant with a material like that in that application. The only
issue might be side load forces. Since its full supported if done
right... Heck I don't know Jim. I'm making this up as I go along. LOL.

I'd probably spend more time stressing over getting the size right and
on center. Drill fast, bore straight, ream to size except a reamer that
size might cost as much as a whole-nuther tail stock, and recently I've
found even name brand reamers vary a little more than I might like.

David Billington

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Nov 22, 2021, 7:53:23 PM11/22/21
to
Maybe keep an eye on ebay for a spare tailstock if the lathe is common,
that's what I did with my M300 as I wanted one to convert to a lever
tailstock as I do jobs that require deep peck drilling or drilling of
multiple items and the screw tailstock was getting tedious with all the
winding and unwinding. One eventually came up at an acceptable price so
I bought it, turns out I knew the guy as he was a local engine machinist
I had used in the past. He had been unfortunate when moving the lathe
with a mate and a moving skate had shifted  and wasn't noticed so when
pushed it fell on its front and wrote the lathe off, he sold all the
salvageable parts on ebay to my benefit with the tailstock.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 23, 2021, 8:17:59 AM11/23/21
to
"David Billington" wrote in message news:snhe1v$75m$1...@dont-email.me...
------------------------
People collect and restore the South Bend Heavy 10 lathe so good parts have
become harder to find now than in the early 90's when I bought it, and every
useful spare part I saw.
https://www.ebay.com/b/South-Bend-Metalworking-Equipment-Replacement-Parts/258169/bn_7116077721

I did a little necessary restoration and found that some pieces were
individually hand-fitted and don't easily interchange. The tailstock might
be one of them, the one on mine may not be original and seems slightly low,
though wear and play make it difficult to measure. The clamping plate under
the tailstock was obviously a student project.

Except for the 70 position threading gearbox there's little difference
between my 1965 lathe and the one described in the 1914 edition of "How to
Run a Lathe". In it the tumbler that drives the leadscrew is called a recent
improvement.

Bob La Londe

unread,
Nov 23, 2021, 3:18:15 PM11/23/21
to
It could also be low due to heavy use. I seem to recall one
conversation where somebody said if you have a choice in setup between
ever so slightly high and overshooting to be a tad bit low its better to
leave it alone and let it wear in over time. I think a mechanism that
can be adjusted over time makes more sense, but that's what they said.
I'm not sure how being a little bit bad in one direction would be better
than being a little bit bad in another direction, but that was the gist
of it. It reminded me of shooting pool with people who ask if its
better to miss by a little bit or miss by a lot. "Um, you missed.
That's all." LOL. " Its still my shot."

Like every other surface on your lathe it will wear over time. As to
the clamping plate on the bottom. It may be original. I have three
lathes with similar tail stocks and plates for clamping in place. There
is nothing special about any of them. They are all just the right size
piece of pretty generic plate with a hole tapped through it.

David Billington

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Nov 23, 2021, 3:30:43 PM11/23/21
to
A mate used to have one of those here in the UK, it was ex WW2 lend
lease and pretty beaten up but it was his and it worked. It had to go
when he divorced and downsized but he does have access to his father's
Myford 7 which he acquired from the widow of a family friend for little
money as she just wanted the garage cleared. A mate has the Hayes
Diemaster mill, and the dad also had a decent sized UK made pillar drill.

I was fortunate the M300 tailstock was in good order and aligns very
well and I've not had to touch it. It has little wear in the barrel as
it had a 8mm wide collar of congealed oil at the back of the bore which
stopped it moving fully back, once cleaned out the quill moves fully
back and I can feel a slight increase in the force required. The
congealed oil ring was why it wouldn't eject Morse taper items without a
tang. I like the lever tailstock as it gives more feel when drilling but
can't generate as good a clamping load so some jobs I have to revert to
the standard tailstock.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 23, 2021, 4:57:52 PM11/23/21
to
Totally silly idea. Find a straight shank Morse taper adapter with an
OD slightly larger than your current opening. Bore to fit. Longer
"might" be better, but even a couple inches of stroke is good enough if
it comes with a nice no slop sliding fit.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 23, 2021, 6:44:25 PM11/23/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snjo4s$1a0r$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

Totally silly idea. Find a straight shank Morse taper adapter with an
OD slightly larger than your current opening. Bore to fit. Longer
"might" be better, but even a couple inches of stroke is good enough if
it comes with a nice no slop sliding fit.

----------------------

It's not silly, I have such an MT2 to straight adapter and matching bronze
sleeve for an incomplete endmill sharpening fixture project. Unfortunately
the adapter's OD is 1.000" while the tailstock spindle's is 1.062".
Hardening made the sleeve expand slightly at the ejection slots, apparently
after it was ground. A HiRoc bit could drill through the end for a collet
closing screw but doubt I could thread it or mill the key slot.

I rely on the depth graduations on the spindle because I sometimes lose
track of turns while peck drilling small deep holes. My attempts to engrave
and number graduations on tools haven't been impressive.

I was planning to make a tool holding fixture that resembled the Quorn's,
but initially simpler, since the swiveling head of my Delta Rockwell
Toolmaker surface + cutter grinder appears to be the inspiration for its
design. As usual, shortly after buying the parts I found a second-hand
commercial fixture for sharpening the spiral flutes of endmills.

The fixture I did complete is for grinding S&D and other large drill bits in
a 5C end mill sharpening fixture. It consists of a 5C closer nut bored out
1.000" behind the threads, a light-press-fit reducer to 0.500", and a ring
spanner to tighten the nut. The 0.500 hole centers the drill shank. The back
relief setting of the fixture tilts the bit 30 degrees, for a 120 degree
point angle and ~5 degree back rake.

Again, after finishing it I found a 3/4" collet that fits my originally 1/2"
Drill Doctor. It's like I have to prove I'm worthy before finding what I
seek.
jsw

Jim Wilkins

unread,
Nov 23, 2021, 7:24:43 PM11/23/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snji9v$ph7$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

>...As to the clamping plate on the bottom. It may be original. I have
>three lathes with similar tail stocks and plates for clamping in place.
There is nothing special about any of them.
They are all just the right size piece of pretty
>generic plate with a hole tapped through it.

----------------------

If it's original then Mickey Mouse worked for South Bend.

The 'stud' is a loose-fitting Grade 5 galvanized hardware store hex head cap
screw, and the bolt head recess is a milled rectangular pocket the width of
two sides with little half-round clearance cuts in the ends for the points.
I machined a flange nut with a 13/16" hex to fit the proper style of
short-handled forged box wrench.

Jim Wilkins

unread,
Nov 23, 2021, 8:30:06 PM11/23/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snji9v$ph7$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

It could also be low due to heavy use. I seem to recall one
conversation where somebody said if you have a choice in setup between
ever so slightly high and overshooting to be a tad bit low its better to
leave it alone and let it wear in over time. I think a mechanism that
can be adjusted over time makes more sense, but that's what they said.
I'm not sure how being a little bit bad in one direction would be better
than being a little bit bad in another direction, but that was the gist
of it. It reminded me of shooting pool with people who ask if its
better to miss by a little bit or miss by a lot. "Um, you missed.
That's all." LOL. " Its still my shot."

------------------------

Since it came from a trade school I think it saw relatively little use, and
less care. The obvious problems were the D-shaped tailstock spindle and
missing compound handle. The dealer told me that the instructor spent his
yearly maintenance allocation on school-color paint to hide defects, and the
rest on whiskey. The hardened ways look perfect and I observed less than
0.0001" spindle ID runout before buying it. The only serious wear was on the
underside of the compound slide which I surface ground back to flat.

I didn't see another Heavy 10 for sale for 15 years, and then at the price
of a new 10" Grizzly. What really kills me is that I had to surplus a
pristine 14" long bed South Bend at Mitre with no chance of bidding on it
afterwards. As Air Force property it was supposed to go to a school or
non-profit, on its tortuous way to Iran. I surplused millions of dollars of
older equipment I would love to have owned, but never saw again. Perhaps
it's best that I've collected only a couple of Hewlett-Packard boat anchors,
a digital storage scope and a spectrum analyzer.
jsw

Bob La Londe

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Nov 24, 2021, 11:45:50 AM11/24/21
to
On 11/23/2021 4:43 PM, Jim Wilkins wrote:

It's like I have to prove I'm worthy before finding
> what I seek.
> jsw

I feel your pain. I've got multiples of tools for that reason. Last
time I needed a powder actuated pin driver I couldn't find mine. I knew
I had two of them One hammer actuated, and one trigger actuated. After
spending three days searching I gave up and bought a new one. I figured
at some point an ex-employee forgot to return mine. I hadn't even
opened the package when I found the one I already had. The new one is
still in the package some years later. LOL. I figure if I ever
misplace them again I can just threaten to open the package and they
will re-appear. Now I know all I need to do to find a tool or figure
out an easy way to fix one is buy its replacement.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 24, 2021, 12:43:57 PM11/24/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snlq7q$gq5$1...@gioia.aioe.org...
---------------------

After buying and using the new one I look for a logical place to store it,
and more often than not that's where I find the missing one. Why couldn't I
have remembered to look there before?

Gerry

unread,
Nov 25, 2021, 11:32:20 PM11/25/21
to
I have a rack of assorted tool boxes (yard sale dollar or less finds)
for items like pin driver, oscillating tool, etc. which keeps the tool
together with its pins, bits, or spares; which does help somewhat.
Sons find this helpfull when they come to borrow as well.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 26, 2021, 7:27:06 AM11/26/21
to
"Gerry" wrote in message news:1do0qgh6l7fq2oa5o...@4ax.com...

I have a rack of assorted tool boxes (yard sale dollar or less finds)
for items like pin driver, oscillating tool, etc. which keeps the tool
together with its pins, bits, or spares; which does help somewhat.
Sons find this helpfull when they come to borrow as well.

------------------------

That's a good idea that can be hard to implement. I've found stackable
plastic cases with latching lids for the manual , tools and spares for
chainsaws and generators that may be used away from the house, but not for
air tools, especially those with whips for easier handling. They are all in
cardboard boxes with the hoses and packages of sanding belts and disks
protruding from the top. As my power tools evolved from NiCds to replacement
NiMH batteries that are slightly larger I had to carve up the fitted case's
interior or remove it completely. For at-home use the lack of restraint
doesn't hurt them.

I've given up trying to separately package angle and die grinders since
their parts often interchange, especially since I machine spindle adapters
to misuse them such as making a compact right angle drill from a grinder, or
jack up my car with a drill.

Some of my small bench-mount tools are on rolling stands with invertable
two-sided tops on trunnions, one tool on each side. In one case a single
motor on a hinged base drives the table saw or belt sander that is on top. A
box or drawer below stores parts for both.

It might have been better to mount two unrelated tools on each stand so I
could have all the sheetmetal or woodworking tools on top simultaneously
instead of frequently swapping between two on one stand.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 26, 2021, 1:05:51 PM11/26/21
to
Yep. No matter how much stock and parts storage you have its either
empty or over flowing. There never seems to be a "enough." I've
thought about getting another shipping container just for bar stock.

My current dream project is a 56(ish) foot long monolithic steel top
bench along the back wall of my shop with bench top to floor drawers
with 6 foot long wings about every 8 feet with 6 foot deep drawers for
long stock and long tools. I have the steel for the top, and some of
the steel tube.

"Hey dad, I need a shovel."

"Third wing bottom drawer under the grinders."

I actually hope to be able to get rid of my three roll-a-way tool boxes.

Jim Wilkins

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Nov 27, 2021, 1:33:52 PM11/27/21
to
"Bob La Londe" wrote in message news:snr7ls$aqj$1...@gioia.aioe.org...

My current dream project is a 56(ish) foot long monolithic steel top
bench along the back wall of my shop with bench top to floor drawers
with 6 foot long wings about every 8 feet with 6 foot deep drawers for
long stock and long tools. I have the steel for the top, and some of
the steel tube.

--------------------------

That's not much different from the benches in several labs I've worked in.
At Segway a rep from MSC came in periodically to make sure the hardware
drawers under the long bench in the machine shop remained fully stocked.

Long open benches tended to acquire a population of small bench-mount
equipment that has to be far enough apart to not interfere with turning,
cutting, grinding, drilling or tapping long stock, and soon the open space
isn't that long any more. That's where I got my preference for mounting it
in pairs on carts that could be temporarily clamped to the edge of the
bench, then stored compactly together.

Bob La Londe

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Nov 27, 2021, 2:55:16 PM11/27/21
to
My plan is to break it up into sections dedicated (mostly) to a
particular type of work. Grinding, injecting, welding, general
assembly, etc. I plan for some bays to be covered in small pieces of
equipment as that's the way they will be used every day. I even plan
for wings on the wings for things like the 6 ton arbor press and mid
size drill press. Of course plans/mice/men/spouse/kids/etc
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