Opinions

[Steve B]

I bought a tachometer from Northern Tools. It sat in a box for a few years,
and was never connected. I then connected it, and got nothing. I contacted
them, and they said that after a year, they would make no adjustment. If
the device did not work the first time out of the sealed box, I feel it was
defective, and they should replace defective goods. I have bought things
from them, and enough to the level that they send me a hard cover catalog.
What would you do, and what is your opinion of this situation.

I feel that the item was defective as it did not work out of a sealed
antistatic envelope, and they should either give me a credit, a replacement,
or a refund. It was about $40.

Steve

[Cross-Slide]

You are right that it was defective.
Buying cheap Chinese junk, is itself, a defective strategy.
Expecting an unlimited warranty until you are ready to use something is not as reasonable as you hoped it would sound.

You spend cheap, you get cheap service. Lesson learned.

[Steve B]

"Cross-Slide" <3t...@centurytel.net> wrote in message
news:ce332581-248d-4ac2...@googlegroups.com...

The tach and my Northern Catalog have been sent back with a note that both
are worthless to me now.

Steve

[dpb]

On 11/2/2012 11:29 AM, Steve B wrote:
> I bought a tachometer from Northern Tools. It sat in a box for a few years,
> and was never connected. I then connected it, and got nothing. I contacted
> them, and they said that after a year, they would make no adjustment. If
> the device did not work the first time out of the sealed box, I feel it was
> defective, and they should replace defective goods. I have bought things
> from them, and enough to the level that they send me a hard cover catalog.
> What would you do, and what is your opinion of this situation.

...

I've not bought anything from Northern in at least 5 years and I'm still
on the hardcopy catalog mailing list, so that's not particularly
exclusive company... :)

While unfortunate that it didn't function, after "several" years before
being used, I certainly don't feel they've much obligation on a specific
product. My opinion? Chalk it up and go on...and remember to check
stuff out when get it from now on.

--

[Steve B]

"dpb" <no...@non.net> wrote in message news:k711hc$uao$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

Comments noted, but already place in policy as of yesterday.

Steve

[Rex]

On Friday, November 2, 2012 11:28:44 AM UTC-5, Steve B wrote:

Did you speak to the store manager? If it was still a current product, I can't imagine a reasonable person making a "policy" exchange on a low-cost item like that. But the counter clerk can't make that call.

[Carl Ijames]

I know you have already mailed it back to them but you asked for opinions.
I think most people expect that a retail warranty period begins at the time
of sale. Many companies that sell to oem's follow the same policy - I do a
fair bit of the purchasing at work and we've bought electronic modules that
sat on our shelf for a few months before we built them into a product, and
then had them fail more than one year after our purchase but much less than
a year after our sale to a retail customer. Most of the time we have to eat
it, our suppliers say their one year warranty starts at the time of their
sale to us, not our retail sale to an end user. Some suppliers will cover
them, and we highly value our relationship with those vendors :-), but the
majority don't.

The purchase contract on a large piece of lab equipment when I was in
college explicitly stated that the warranty started on the date we accepted
that the equipment met all performance specs, and spelled out some number of
days after our physical receipt of the box that we had to test the unit and
accept or return it.

Anyway, you asked for opinions :-).

-----
Regards,
Carl Ijames
"Steve B" wrote in message news:k70sbn$g14$1...@speranza.aioe.org...

[Steve B]

"Rex" <burkh...@gmail.com> wrote

> Did you speak to the store manager? If it was still a current product, I
> can't imagine a reasonable person making a "policy" exchange on a low-cost
> item like that. But the counter clerk can't make that call.

It was Northern Tools. That is a mail order catalog. I sent it to the
return department's e mail address.

Steve

[Steve B]

"Carl Ijames" <carl.delt...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:k71jp...@news1.newsguy.com...

My whole case is that this is a circuit board. It had never been connected.
I do not know what the shelf life is for it. But it failed to operate first
thing out of the box. That would compare to me, at least, to be like any
tool that fails to perform on the first use no matter how long it sat on the
bench. Four years in a sealed box should be within the shelf life of the
item.

Steve

[Michael A. Terrell]

Steve B wrote:
>
> My whole case is that this is a circuit board. It had never been connected.
> I do not know what the shelf life is for it. But it failed to operate first
> thing out of the box. That would compare to me, at least, to be like any
> tool that fails to perform on the first use no matter how long it sat on the
> bench. Four years in a sealed box should be within the shelf life of the
> item.

Not with lead free solder. Tin whiskers can grow a lot faster than
four years.

[Spehro Pefhany]

Takes a lot less than 4 years to spend $40 too, even in China.


Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany
--
"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com

[Michael A. Terrell]

Spehro Pefhany wrote:
>
> On Fri, 02 Nov 2012 22:18:31 -0400, the renowned "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> >
> >Steve B wrote:
> >>
> >> My whole case is that this is a circuit board. It had never been connected.
> >> I do not know what the shelf life is for it. But it failed to operate first
> >> thing out of the box. That would compare to me, at least, to be like any
> >> tool that fails to perform on the first use no matter how long it sat on the
> >> bench. Four years in a sealed box should be within the shelf life of the
> >> item.
> >
> >
> > Not with lead free solder. Tin whiskers can grow a lot faster than
> >four years.
>
> Takes a lot less than 4 years to spend $40 too, even in China.

Takes less than three minutes at the grocery store.. :(

[Ignoramus24757]

Steve B, my opinion is that while you are legitimately disappointed
with the product, and to look for a better source in the future,
asking a manufacturer to take an item back after several years, is
asking too much.

i

[DoN. Nichols]

Have a look at the paper 2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf to be found at
<http://nepp.nasa.gove/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf>

PDF page 41 contains the first photo of whiskers on a PCB. And
page 42 shows whiskers shorting a multi-pin connector.

Page 46 shows whiskers bridging traces on a PC board.

This also explains the "unintended acceleration" problem in cars
with computers monitoring the accelerator position.

In particular -- look at page 57 through 59 to see that documented.

The next page documents potential failures of pacemakers caused
by the whiskers.

Since the circuit board has failed, and is officially outside
warranty, you have nothing to lose by trying to clean it of potential
whiskers.

Good Luck,
DoN.

--
Remove oil spill source from e-mail
Email: <BPdnic...@d-and-d.com> | Voice (all times): (703) 938-4564
(too) near Washington D.C. | http://www.d-and-d.com/dnichols/DoN.html
--- Black Holes are where God is dividing by zero ---

[Steve B]

"Ignoramus24757" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.24757.invalid> wrote in message
news:W-KdnQcsAv2YGwjN...@giganews.com...

Well, it's how you keep or lose a customer, to me. YMM(and probably does)V.

Steve

[Michael A. Terrell]

"DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>
> On 2012-11-03, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
> >
> > Steve B wrote:
> >>
> >> My whole case is that this is a circuit board. It had never been connected.
> >> I do not know what the shelf life is for it. But it failed to operate first
> >> thing out of the box. That would compare to me, at least, to be like any
> >> tool that fails to perform on the first use no matter how long it sat on the
> >> bench. Four years in a sealed box should be within the shelf life of the
> >> item.
> >
> >
> > Not with lead free solder. Tin whiskers can grow a lot faster than
> > four years.
>
> Have a look at the paper 2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf to be found at
> <http://nepp.nasa.gove/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf>
>
> PDF page 41 contains the first photo of whiskers on a PCB. And
> page 42 shows whiskers shorting a multi-pin connector.
>
> Page 46 shows whiskers bridging traces on a PC board.
>
> This also explains the "unintended acceleration" problem in cars
> with computers monitoring the accelerator position.
>
> In particular -- look at page 57 through 59 to see that documented.
>
> The next page documents potential failures of pacemakers caused
> by the whiskers.
>
> Since the circuit board has failed, and is officially outside
> warranty, you have nothing to lose by trying to clean it of potential
> whiskers.

Don't you find it interesting that military, aerospace & medical are
exempt from using lead free solder?

[DoN. Nichols]

On 2012-11-04, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> "DoN. Nichols" wrote:
>>
>> On 2012-11-03, Michael A. Terrell <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:

>> > Not with lead free solder. Tin whiskers can grow a lot faster than
>> > four years.
>>
>> Have a look at the paper 2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf to be found at
>> <http://nepp.nasa.gove/WHISKER/reference/tech_papers/2011-kostic-Pb-free.pdf>

[ ... ]

>> This also explains the "unintended acceleration" problem in cars
>> with computers monitoring the accelerator position.
>>
>> In particular -- look at page 57 through 59 to see that documented.
>>
>> The next page documents potential failures of pacemakers caused
>> by the whiskers.

[ ... ]

> Don't you find it interesting that military, aerospace & medical are
> exempt from using lead free solder?

Personally -- I find it quite reassuring. (Except for that
batch of pacemakers which had to be recalled in the medical category.
:-) The problem is that components without lead free solder are getting
harder and harder to find -- unless you purchase in really massive
quantities and thus have leverage over the manufacturer.

But I also consider the whiskers in the speed pot in the Toyotas
(and likely other "fly by wire" cars as well) can be similarly
life-threatening. Not just to the driver of the car involved and his
passengers, but to others sharing the road.

I'm glad that the Nissan Cube which is my most recent auto --
and my only "fly by wire" one -- has a way to force the engine to shut
down at speed. Either hold the "start" button down for over three
seconds, or poke it several time in quick succession. I hope that this
will get past the usual whisker induced catatonia. At least whiskers
across the "start" switch should force a shutdown. :-)

And yes -- I *did* experience a floor-mat induced runaway
accelerator -- in a Datsun 240Z that a co-worker was buying and which
had problems with the SU carbs, which I was familiar with from the MGAs
which I owned and drove. At least that had both a clutch (to allow me
to uncouple the engine a bit) and a true ignition switch, to allow me to
shut down the engine. :-)

Enjoy,

[Michael A. Terrell]

There is a seperate industry that cleans up & replates new components
for real solder. It adds a lot to the component costs for hi rel,
exempt applications.

[Larry Jaques]

Don't you find it interesting that politicans and campaigners are
exempt from the Do Not Call list? They can call your number all day
and all night with complete immunity, the CSing MFing SOBs.

Don't you find it interesting that CONgresscritters are exempt from
Medicare and have an extremly more expensive and sophisticated care
package than the rest of the country?

And don't get me started on their retirement packages...

--
The great thing about getting older is that
you don't lose all the other ages you've been.
-- Madeleine L'Engle

[Michael A. Terrell]

Larry Jaques wrote:
>
> On Sat, 03 Nov 2012 21:01:54 -0400, "Michael A. Terrell"
> <mike.t...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>
> > Don't you find it interesting that military, aerospace & medical are
> >exempt from using lead free solder?
>
> Don't you find it interesting that politicans and campaigners are
> exempt from the Do Not Call list? They can call your number all day
> and all night with complete immunity, the CSing MFing SOBs.

Stop answering the phone, and let it go to voicemail, or your answering
machine till the election is over. OTOH, what other time would you get
robocalls from people like Clint Eastwood, Mike Huckabe or famous old
singers telling you why you shouldn't vote for an empty chair?

> Don't you find it interesting that CONgresscritters are exempt from
> Medicare and have an extremly more expensive and sophisticated care
> package than the rest of the country?

they claim to serve their country, so they should be under the care
of military doctors. If one is close enough, and has time to see them.
If not? Tough luck!

> And don't get me started on their retirement packages...

Should be tied to military retirement levels, for the reason given
above.