OT - The Lancet's Vaccine Retraction -- A medical journal's role in the autism scare
Joseph Gwinn
to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504154411579195
2.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop>
The Wall Street Journal, 3 February 2010.
There is a news article on page A8 of the same issue:
"Lancet Retracts Study Tying Vaccine to Autism",
<http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504121243736442
0.html>
Access is gratis today.
Joe Gwinn
Pete Snell
<http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php>
Pete
Joseph Gwinn wrote:
> In short, vaccines do not cause autism. So, get your shots. And, more
> to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Hell is other people.
Jean-Paul Sartre (1905-1980)
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ---------------------
For a secure high performance FTP using SSL/TLS encryption
upgrade to SurgeFTP
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgeftp.htm ----
Existential Angst
news:joegwinn-1638ED...@news.giganews.com...
> In short, vaccines do not cause autism. So, get your shots. And, more
> to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
Heh, I guess yer Wife don't work in a hospital..... hospital workers avoid
this stuff like the plague.
Good, honest Docs are caught between a rock and hard place -- how do you
tell yer patients that yer profession is fullashit (and thimerosal), and
still be able to make a living?
And I'm not even taking sides on the vaccine issue, really, altho I wouldn't
take them myself. In principle, a valid concept, in practice, very sloppy
chemistry.
The bigger point is, the world population is but a cageful of guinea pigs
for Big Med and Big Pharm... need I cite countless example after example
after example? Or the invention of disease just to sell drugs. Restless
Leg Syndrome, inyone?
So, need you take more than one guess at WHY Lancet printed a retraction?
Proly someone got fired for printing the original article to begin with.
>
>
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504154411579195
> 2.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop>
>
> The Wall Street Journal, 3 February 2010.
>
>
> There is a news article on page A8 of the same issue:
>
> "Lancet Retracts Study Tying Vaccine to Autism",
>
> <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504121243736442
> 0.html>
>
> Access is gratis today.
Yeah, proly sponsored by the AMA....
--
EA
>
>
> Joe Gwinn
William Wixon
"Existential Angst" <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote in message
news:4b6993dd$0$31285$607e...@cv.net...
> "Joseph Gwinn" <joeg...@comcast.net> wrote in message
> news:joegwinn-1638ED...@news.giganews.com...
>> In short, vaccines do not cause autism. So, get your shots. And, more
>> to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
>
> Heh, I guess yer Wife don't work in a hospital..... hospital workers
> avoid this stuff like the plague.
>
> Good, honest Docs are caught between a rock and hard place -- how do you
> tell yer patients that yer profession is fullashit (and thimerosal), and
> still be able to make a living?
>
> And I'm not even taking sides on the vaccine issue, really, altho I
> wouldn't take them myself. In principle, a valid concept, in practice,
> very sloppy chemistry.
>
> The bigger point is, the world population is but a cageful of guinea pigs
> for Big Med and Big Pharm... need I cite countless example after example
> after example? Or the invention of disease just to sell drugs. Restless
> Leg Syndrome, inyone?
>
> So, need you take more than one guess at WHY Lancet printed a retraction?
> Proly someone got fired for printing the original article to begin with.
>
and agri-business w/ genetically modified products (animal/vegetable). a
massive open uncontrolled experiment. madness driven by greed.
b.w.
Ed Huntress
"Pete Snell" <sne...@rmc.ca> wrote in message
news:4b698d84$1...@win9.rmc.ca...
> Another good link, but slightly different topic.
>
> <http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php>
>
> Pete
>
> Joseph Gwinn wrote:
>> In short, vaccines do not cause autism. So, get your shots. And, more
>> to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
Speaking of interesting things coming from the UK, the BBC is running a
great radio series about people voting against their own interests, called
"Turkeys Voting for Christmas." The first one is about populist voters in
the US. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see clearly what's going on here,
like de Toqueville's _Democracy in America_:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
--
Ed Huntress
Existential Angst
>
> <http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php>
>
> Pete
Heh, cute, Avogadro's number.....
I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted in
science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
I think chiropractic is where TeleEvangelists got their healing stunts from,
cuz you can literally walk into a chiropractor's office near-crippled, and
walk out cured, in a few minutes.
Hard to believe if you haven't experienced it, but I know first, second,
third hand.
Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to even
comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per 10,000,000) is
homeopathic, imo.
So homeopathic tinctures could indeed have legitimate and meaningful
effects.
I think the real problem is that there are just too many variables to really
know what's what.
And let's put it another way:
Whatever fraud you can cite and document in various alternative health
modalities -- and I'm sure these are legion -- you can cite 100 times that
in Big Med and Big Pharm, fueled by Big Lobbyists in Big Corrupt Congress.
With the dollar value of the hustles in Big Med/Big Pharm dwarfing that of
alternative medicine by factors of 1,000,000s. Yes indeedy, FACTORS of
millions.
Big Med/Big Pharm, along with Big Oil and Big Insurance, are literally
bankrupting this country.
With just a little help from the Bushites and his Wall Street friends.
Hope you enjoy your kids never ever ever ever being able to move out of your
house -- assuming they aren't already autistic..
--
EA
Pete Snell
Existential Angst wrote:
> "Pete Snell" <sne...@rmc.ca> wrote in message
> news:4b698d84$1...@win9.rmc.ca...
>> Another good link, but slightly different topic.
>>
>> <http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php>
>>
>> Pete
>
> Heh, cute, Avogadro's number.....
>
> I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
> chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted in
> science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
Please explain how Homeopathy is rooted in Science.
>
> I think chiropractic is where TeleEvangelists got their healing stunts from,
> cuz you can literally walk into a chiropractor's office near-crippled, and
> walk out cured, in a few minutes.
> Hard to believe if you haven't experienced it, but I know first, second,
> third hand.
No doubt Chiropractors can help people with in certain situations.
Some of them do make outrageous and unsubstantiated claims.
>
> Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
> 10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to even
> comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per 10,000,000) is
> homeopathic, imo.
So dilute solutions of medicines and hormones work? No surprise
there. That's Medicine, not Homeopathy.
>
> So homeopathic tinctures could indeed have legitimate and meaningful
> effects.
> I think the real problem is that there are just too many variables to really
> know what's what.
>
> And let's put it another way:
>
> Whatever fraud you can cite and document in various alternative health
> modalities -- and I'm sure these are legion -- you can cite 100 times that
> in Big Med and Big Pharm, fueled by Big Lobbyists in Big Corrupt Congress.
> With the dollar value of the hustles in Big Med/Big Pharm dwarfing that of
> alternative medicine by factors of 1,000,000s. Yes indeedy, FACTORS of
> millions.
>
> Big Med/Big Pharm, along with Big Oil and Big Insurance, are literally
> bankrupting this country.
> With just a little help from the Bushites and his Wall Street friends.
>
> Hope you enjoy your kids never ever ever ever being able to move out of your
> house -- assuming they aren't already autistic..
Yes. Easier to claim conspiracy than look at real problems.
Homeopathy takes money from peoples wallets and gives them false hope.
That's what it does. Pointing out any shortcomings in other 'modalities'
doesn't change that.
Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped.
Groucho Marx (1895�1977)
dca...@krl.org
wrote:
> Heh, cute, Avogadro's number.....
>
> I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
> chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted in
> science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
>
> Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
> 10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to even
> comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per 10,000,000) is
> homeopathic, imo.
>
> So homeopathic tinctures could indeed have legitimate and meaningful
> effects.
> I think the real problem is that there are just too many variables to really
> know what's what.
>
> And let's put it another way:
>
> Whatever fraud you can cite and document in various alternative health
> modalities -- and I'm sure these are legion -- you can cite 100 times that
> in Big Med and Big Pharm, fueled by Big Lobbyists in Big Corrupt Congress.
> With the dollar value of the hustles in Big Med/Big Pharm dwarfing that of
> alternative medicine by factors of 1,000,000s. Yes indeedy, FACTORS of
> millions.
>
> EA
Okay you understand Avogadro'sl number. So what do you think about a
medicine that is diluted to one part to 100^200? See below.
Oscillococcinum, a 200C product "for the relief of colds and flu-like
symptoms," involves "dilutions" that are even more far-fetched. Its
"active ingredient" is prepared by incubating small amounts of a
freshly killed duck's liver and heart for 40 days. The resultant
solution is then filtered, freeze-dried, rehydrated, repeatedly
diluted, and impregnated into sugar granules. If a single molecule of
the duck's heart or liver were to survive the dilution, its
concentration would be 1 in 100200. This huge number, which has 400
zeroes, is vastly greater than the estimated number of molecules in
the universe (about one googol, which is a 1 followed by 100 zeroes).
In its February 17, 1997, issue, U.S. News & World Report noted that
only one duck per year is needed to manufacture the product, which had
total sales of $20 million in 1996. The magazine dubbed that unlucky
bird "the $20-million duck."
I think that Homopathic medicines ought to be held to the same
standards as any other medicine. That is they would have to prove
that it has some effect.
Dan
Jim Wilkins
wrote:
> ...
> Heh, I guess yer Wife don't work in a hospital..... hospital workers avoid
> this stuff like the plague.
> EA
The same way they avoid weight control advice?
Dave__67
Homeopathy may not be rooted in science, but seems to be firmly rooted
in econmics 101!
Dave
F. George McDuffee
=========
There is a reason why "I'm from the gumment and I'm here to hep
you" is the punch line in so many jokes.
It should be clear that granting or ceding "government" the right
to decide anything, without also holding the individuals actually
making the decisions civilly and criminally accountable, for the
outcomes of their actions is a sure recipe for disaster and
continual meddling.
In many of these cases we are seeing a difference in taste, and
in other cases a difference in priorities. In other cases we are
seeing simple direct and overt power grabs.
Experience has shown in many cases the most intelligent course of
individual action is to determine what the governmental
bureaucrats, functionaries and apparatchiks want you to do and
then do the exact opposite. The current economy is a case in
point. If the government is not exercising many of its
functions, responsibilities and duties now, why would any sane
person let them acquire additional power and responsibility?
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
Doug Miller
>I think that Homopathic medicines ought to be held to the same
>standards as any other medicine.
Oh, I agree.
>That is they would have to prove that it has some effect.
Homeopathic "medicines" would pass that standard easily.
Fortunately, that's not the standard that's used to assess the effectiveness
of a medicine. This is: in a placebo-controlled, double-blind study, it needs
to be more effective _than_the_placebo_ by a statistically significant margin.
Homeopathy works because placebos work.
Too_Many_Tools
I strongly agree.
TMT
John R. Carroll
Because it's been extremely succesful in - - - - Canada.
You must have noticed that their own banking and financial services industry
avoided ( by direction ) the noose the rest of the world ran it's neck
into.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"F. George McDuffee" <gmcd...@mcduffee-associates.us> wrote in message
news:0qajm51pgc1j935l5...@4ax.com...
If you haven't read it before, it's a good time to read "The Paranoid Style
in American Politics," by Richard Hofstadter. It was published in 1964, and
it rings like a bell today:
http://karws.gso.uri.edu/jfk/conspiracy_theory/the_paranoid_mentality/the_paranoid_style.html
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:_d6dnS0YssU3LfTW...@giganews.com...
> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:28:51 -0500, "Ed Huntress"
>> <hunt...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>>
>
>>
>> Experience has shown in many cases the most intelligent course of
>> individual action is to determine what the governmental
>> bureaucrats, functionaries and apparatchiks want you to do and
>> then do the exact opposite. The current economy is a case in
>> point. If the government is not exercising many of its
>> functions, responsibilities and duties now, why would any sane
>> person let them acquire additional power and responsibility?
>
> Because it's been extremely succesful in - - - - Canada.
Uh, just to be sure, you're quoting Unka' George, not me. I haven't bought
into the Paranoid Style. <g>
--
Ed Huntress
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
>If the government is not exercising many of its
>> functions, responsibilities and duties now, why would any sane
>> person let them acquire additional power and responsibility?
>
>Because it's been extremely succesful in - - - - Canada.
>
>You must have noticed that their own banking and financial services industry
>avoided ( by direction ) the noose the rest of the world ran it's neck
>into.
=========
A good argument for outsourcing. How much do you think Canada
would charge to run the US? Nothing else seems to have
worked....
rangerssuck
wrote:
>
> for Big Med and Big Pharm... need I cite countless example after example
> after example? Or the invention of disease just to sell drugs. Restless
> Leg Syndrome, inyone?
No thanks, I've already got it. And I can assure you, it is no joke.
Now, the interesting thing is that I got RLS as a side effect from
another "safe" drug.
If you want to talk about drugs in search of diseases, take a look at
statins. They were looking for a drug to lower blood pressure. They
found that statins lower cholesterol. They knew that people with high
cholesterol levels had lower life expectancy, so they marketed the
hell out of this stuff. As far as I know, there has not been a single
scientific study that shows that lowering cholesterol levels by taking
statin drugs increases life expectancy. But they sell this stuff by
the boat load.
I'm trusting that Ed will correct me if I'm wrong about the statin
studies :-)
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:_d6dnS0YssU3LfTW...@giganews.com...
>
> Uh, just to be sure, you're quoting Unka' George, not me. I haven't
> bought into the Paranoid Style. <g>
>
Yeah, that was strange.
Quote Fix usually gets the attributes right but this is twice now today that
it's messed them up.
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> <snip>
>> If the government is not exercising many of its
>>> functions, responsibilities and duties now, why would any sane
>>> person let them acquire additional power and responsibility?
>>
>> Because it's been extremely succesful in - - - - Canada.
>>
>> You must have noticed that their own banking and financial services
>> industry avoided ( by direction ) the noose the rest of the world
>> ran it's neck into.
> <snip>
> =========
> A good argument for outsourcing. How much do you think Canada
> would charge to run the US? Nothing else seems to have
> worked....
I doubt that you could wrap a big enough ball of cash around that order to
get them interested.
LOL
I wish I'd saved the link to a piece Christia Freeland wrote for the
Financial Times recently.
You might have seen it anyway.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"rangerssuck" <range...@gmail.com> wrote in message
news:b7d08519-4fcc-40ab...@r19g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
I've put that stuff out of my mind. I just take the suckers and hope I don't
keel over. So far, so good. <g>
It would be a ten-minute research job on PubMed, if you're bored today. All
you need for those efficacy tests is the abstract.
--
Ed Huntress
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
It's here:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/db2b340a-0a1b-11df-8b23-00144feabdc0.html
Worth reading, IMO.
--
Ed Huntress
Pete Snell
> A good argument for outsourcing. How much do you think Canada
> would charge to run the US? Nothing else seems to have
> worked....
>
Simple really, you just have to become the 11th Province! (insert big
grinning emoticon here)
Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In a car everything you see is just more TV. You're a passive observer
and it is all moving by you boringly in a frame. On a cycle the frame is
completely gone. You're completely in contact with it all. You're in the
scene, not just watching it anymore, and the sense of presence is
overwhelming.
Robert Pirsig
Zen and the Art of Motorcycle Maintenance. (1974)
John R. Carroll
Off the subject completely but LaHood made a statement today that Toyota
drivers ought to stop driving their cars until they can be fixed.
How's that for poking your biggest competitor right in the eye!
I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad as hell
if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to mess with
sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
--
John R. Carroll
Pete Snell
> Speaking of interesting things coming from the UK, the BBC is running a
> great radio series about people voting against their own interests, called
> "Turkeys Voting for Christmas." The first one is about populist voters in
> the US. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see clearly what's going on here,
> like de Toqueville's _Democracy in America_:
>
> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
>
Thanks for that Ed. Looks very interesting.
Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
In space, no one can hear you sing.
------------ And now a word from our sponsor ----------------------
For a quality mail server, try SurgeMail, easy to install,
fast, efficient and reliable. Run a million users on a standard
PC running NT or Unix without running out of power, use the best!
---- See http://netwinsite.com/sponsor/sponsor_surgemail.htm ----
Ed Huntress
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>
>> Speaking of interesting things coming from the UK, the BBC is running a
>> great radio series about people voting against their own interests,
>> called "Turkeys Voting for Christmas." The first one is about populist
>> voters in the US. Sometimes it takes an outsider to see clearly what's
>> going on here, like de Toqueville's _Democracy in America_:
>>
>> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/8474611.stm
>>
>
> Thanks for that Ed. Looks very interesting.
>
> Pete
You're welcome, Pete. BTW, if you want to hear the radio show (15 min.),
which adds a bit to the article, you have two hours (as of roughly 2:22 PM
EST) to hear it, before they replace it with Episode 2:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/b00qgyfc
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
Hahahahahaha......
"Shares of Toyota rebounded slightly following LaHood's clarification, but
they are still trading down about 5 percent, well below the overall market
performance. "
--
John R. Carroll
Existential Angst
> And away we go............!
>
> Existential Angst wrote:
>> "Pete Snell" <sne...@rmc.ca> wrote in message
>> news:4b698d84$1...@win9.rmc.ca...
>>> Another good link, but slightly different topic.
>>>
>>> <http://www.1023.org.uk/the-1023-overdose-event.php>
>>>
>>> Pete
>>
>> Heh, cute, Avogadro's number.....
>>
>> I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
>> chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted in
>> science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
>
> Please explain how Homeopathy is rooted in Science.
Some of its principles, see below.
>>
>> I think chiropractic is where TeleEvangelists got their healing stunts
>> from, cuz you can literally walk into a chiropractor's office
>> near-crippled, and walk out cured, in a few minutes.
>> Hard to believe if you haven't experienced it, but I know first, second,
>> third hand.
>
> No doubt Chiropractors can help people with in certain situations. Some
> of them do make outrageous and unsubstantiated claims.
>
>>
>> Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
>> 10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to
>> even comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per
>> 10,000,000) is homeopathic, imo.
>
> So dilute solutions of medicines and hormones work? No surprise there.
> That's Medicine, not Homeopathy.
Except medicine traditionally doesn't use natural substances. In fact, you
can go to jail claiming vitamins can cure anything -- a proscription so
absurd, it's like.... it's like.... sheeit, it's like WT#7 falling down
all by its self!!!
The Q is: are there natural substances (typically plant extracts) that work
at 10^-12?
Proly.
The Q is: which ones?
>
>>
>> So homeopathic tinctures could indeed have legitimate and meaningful
>> effects.
>> I think the real problem is that there are just too many variables to
>> really know what's what.
>>
>> And let's put it another way:
>>
>> Whatever fraud you can cite and document in various alternative health
>> modalities -- and I'm sure these are legion -- you can cite 100 times
>> that in Big Med and Big Pharm, fueled by Big Lobbyists in Big Corrupt
>> Congress.
>> With the dollar value of the hustles in Big Med/Big Pharm dwarfing that
>> of alternative medicine by factors of 1,000,000s. Yes indeedy, FACTORS
>> of millions.
>>
>> Big Med/Big Pharm, along with Big Oil and Big Insurance, are literally
>> bankrupting this country.
>> With just a little help from the Bushites and his Wall Street friends.
>>
>> Hope you enjoy your kids never ever ever ever being able to move out of
>> your house -- assuming they aren't already autistic..
>
> Yes. Easier to claim conspiracy than look at real problems. Homeopathy
> takes money from peoples wallets and gives them false hope. That's what it
> does. Pointing out any shortcomings in other 'modalities' doesn't change
> that.
I won't dispute that much of homeopathy is a con.
But if you're going to bash, bash equitably, in proportion to the total
rip-off.
The conjobs foisted on us by Big Pharm dwarfs that of homeopathy et al by,
heh, mebbe Avogadro's number.
If you can't see John Q Pubic as but fleeced fish in a barrel, then you are
not seeing "real problems".
Conspiracy is actually how things work. It's really just a matter if the
conspiracies are legal or illegal.
Most are certainly immoral -- sheeit, the formation of HD was a conspiracy.
Dats why you have to now drive 15 miles to get hardware.
But, for some strange reason, HD, Staples, and Merck are legal, so we don't
think of them as conspiracies.
Cuz, well, we are fish.
--
EA
>
> Pete
>
>
> --
> Pete Snell
> Department of Physics
> Royal Military College
> Kingston, Ontario,
> Canada
> -----------------------------------------------------------------------
> Either this man is dead or my watch has stopped.
>
> Groucho Marx (1895�1977)
Existential Angst
news:4c5e7f2b-53a6-4295...@k41g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
====================================================
Heh, you should see the nutritionists!!! goodgawd....
And virtually every doc I've ever seen -- and I've seen more than 99.9% of
the population has seen -- are pillsbury doughboys.... outright critical of
me for weightlifting! Holy shit.... while not knowing the difference
between chlorine and chloride.... holy shit.....
The Truth IS out there.... but where?
And in the statistically unlikely event that you stumble upon a Truth, will
you even recognize it?
Proly not. Cuz False Facts sound so much better than True Facts.
Orwell anticipated mind control, ala jihadic islam. He didn't anticipate
the power of the free-market MindFuck, where's all you have to do is drown
the little truth that is out there in mountains of Rush Limbaugh-like
bullshit.
How brilliantly elegant!! Just create a MisDisInformation Superhighway!!
--
EA
Too_Many_Tools
I seem to remember one being released last year...I am sure it is out
on Google if you look.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well John...it is the truth.
Why would anyone knowingly drive a death trap?
This is also the reason why management needs to listen to their
engineering staff...the company knew they had a serious problem and
continued to sell a defective product.
Finally this is the reason for stock holders to hang the management by
their gonads...they did this to you while merrily pocketing their
bonuses.
TMT
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> In article <735a91bd-c5df-47b9-95d8-8feba2c6f...@t21g2000vbo.googlegroups.com>, "dcas...@krl.org" <dcas...@krl.org> wrote:
>
> >I think that Homopathic medicines ought to be held to the same
> >standards as any other medicine.
>
> Oh, I agree.
>
> >That is they would have to prove that it has some effect.
>
> Homeopathic "medicines" would pass that standard easily.
>
> Fortunately, that's not the standard that's used to assess the effectiveness
> of a medicine. This is: in a placebo-controlled, double-blind study, it needs
> to be more effective _than_the_placebo_ by a statistically significant margin.
>
> Homeopathy works because placebos work.
Exactly.
And much of mainstream medicine works for the same reason.
TMT
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
He was a little over the top, but, as you mention in another post, he pulled
back from that one.
It's an interesting question: Should the government keep its mouth shut
about a safety problem in order to preserve the profitability of
stockholders at some particular company? It's too bad that LaHood overstated
the case, because I'd like to see that question played out in the Murdoch
Press versus the mainstream.
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
> On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>> news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>> <snip>
>>
>> Toyota drivers ought to stop driving their cars until they can be
>> fixed.
>> How's that for poking your biggest competitor right in the eye!
>> I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
>> as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
>> My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
>> mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
>>
>> --
>> John R. Carroll- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Well John...it is the truth.
There are a lot of "truths" that the government doesn't speak in order not
to distort the market.
The difference here is that GM and Chrysler are Uncle Sam Inc.
They provide fewer jobs combined in America that Toyota.
This is really the definition of self dealing and a great example, from the
other side of the looking glass, of moral hazard.
LaHood should be replaced ASAP. He's obviously either to stupid or
insufficiently self aware to serve in any capacity.
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these matters Ed.
Something else disturbing in the weekend news was Obama/Holder's statement
that we were going to try, convict, and then execute criminal defendants.
He's contaminated the entire US jury pool. WTF?
Such statements aren't without precedent but they are extremely ill advised,
prejudicial, and cause for a mistrial.
They make a mockery of the purpose of bringing the Gitmo detainees to US
soil for their day in court and I thought that was the entire reason the
administration wanted to proceed that way in the beginning.
Idiots......
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
Free speech. <g> I don't think that jury pools are contaminated by a
statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is. Prosecuters argue
for execution right in their faces, while they're sitting in the jury box.
>
> Such statements aren't without precedent but they are extremely ill
> advised,
> prejudicial, and cause for a mistrial.
If it was a judge saying that, I'd agree with you.
John R. Carroll
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> news:y7WdnaJvBoLLbfTW...@giganews.com...
>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>> news:WL2dnYWfbalBWPTW...@giganews.com...
>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>>> news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
>>>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>>>> <snip>
>>
>> Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was Obama/Holder's
>> statement that we were going to try, convict, and then execute
>> criminal defendants. He's contaminated the entire US jury pool. WTF?
>
> Free speech. <g> I don't think that jury pools are contaminated by a
> statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is. Prosecuters
> argue for execution right in their faces, while they're sitting in
> the jury box.
Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as a practical
matter Ed.
Judges grant changes of venue every day because of exactly this sort of
thing.
You know all of this so I'll assume you are jerking my chain.
Maybe Tom Gardner will jump in with an inane burst of polemic for us all.
>
>>
>> Such statements aren't without precedent but they are extremely ill
>> advised,
>> prejudicial, and cause for a mistrial.
>
> If it was a judge saying that, I'd agree with you.
Death penalty cases have gone to life sentence maximums more than once.
I can't cite a case for you.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
> Ed Huntress wrote:
>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>> news:y7WdnaJvBoLLbfTW...@giganews.com...
>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>> news:WL2dnYWfbalBWPTW...@giganews.com...
>>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>>>> news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
>>>>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>>
>>> The government ordinarily exercises great restraint in these matters
>>> Ed. Something else disturbing in the weekend news was Obama/Holder's
>>> statement that we were going to try, convict, and then execute
>>> criminal defendants. He's contaminated the entire US jury pool. WTF?
>>
>> Free speech. <g> I don't think that jury pools are contaminated by a
>> statement by a prosecutor, no matter how high up he is. Prosecuters
>> argue for execution right in their faces, while they're sitting in
>> the jury box.
>
> Presidents of the Unted States don't actually have that right as a
> practical
> matter Ed.
What did Obama say? I thought it was Holder. I must have missed something.
> Judges grant changes of venue every day because of exactly this sort of
> thing.
> You know all of this so I'll assume you are jerking my chain.
Well, if Obama said something prejudicial, that's different. But Holder is
just the government's chief prosecutor.
> Maybe Tom Gardner will jump in with an inane burst of polemic for us all.
Why not? He probably doesn't know anything about it, so it's his kind of
topic. <g>
Too_Many_Tools
> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in messagenews:WL2dnYWfbalBWPTW...@giganews.com...
>
> - Show quoted text -
Considering that we have MILLIONS of cars out there RIGHT NOW on the
roads that can become a deadly missile AT ANY TIME I think the warning
was warranted.
If any of us have family members killed by this defect, their opinons
will change.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
And Uncle Sam Inc. is the taxpayer..you.
There is no conflict of interest.
If you believe there is, I encourage you to buy stocks of GM and
Chrysler at their low current prices.
If your theory is correct, you will die a rich man.
TMT
rangerssuck
> "rangerssuck" <rangerss...@gmail.com> wrote in message
OK, I stand somewhat corrected, though didn't this whole thread start
with not trusting Lancet articles? And, when you start looking at the
side effects... well, it's better to just maybe put it out of your
mind and hope that you don't keel over.
---
Title:Efficacy and safety of cholesterol-lowering treatment:
prospective meta-analysis of data from 90 056 participants in 14
randomised trials of statins.
The Lancet
366.9493 (Oct 8, 2005): p1267(12). (7298 words)
Abstract:
Background Results of previous randomised trials have shown that
interventions that lower LDL cholesterol concentrations can
significantly reduce the incidence of coronary heart disease (CHD) and
other major vascular events in a wide range of individuals. But each
separate trial has limited power to assess particular outcomes or
particular categories of participant.
Methods A prospective meta-analysis of data from 90 056 individuals in
14 randomised trials of statins was done. Weighted estimates were
obtained of effects on different clinical outcomes per 1.0 mmol/L
reduction in LDL cholesterol.
Findings During a mean of 5 years, there were 8186 deaths, 14 348
individuals had major vascular events, and 5103 developed cancer. Mean
LDL cholesterol differences at 1 year ranged from 0.35 mmol/L to 1.77
mmol/L (mean 1.09) in these trials. There was a 12% proportional
reduction in all-cause mortality per mmol/L reduction in LDL
cholesterol (rate ratio [RR] 0.88, 95% CI 0.84-0.91; p<0.0001). This
reflected a 19% reduction in coronary mortality (0.81, 0.76-0.85;
p<0.0001), and non-significant reductions in non-coronary vascular
mortality (0.93, 0.83-1.03; p=0.2) and non-vascular mortality (0.95,
0.90-1.01; p=0.1). There were corresponding reductions in myocardial
infarction or coronary death (0.77, 0.74-0.80; p<0.0001), in the need
for coronary revascularisation (0.76, 0.73-0.80; p<0.0001), in fatal
or non-fatal stroke (0.83, 0.78-0.88; p<0.0001), and, combining these,
of 21% in any such major vascular event (0.79, 0.77-0.81; p<0.0001).
The proportional reduction in major vascular events differed
significantly (p<0.0001) according to the absolute reduction in LDL
cholesterol achieved, but not otherwise. These benefits were
significant within the first year, but were greater in subsequent
years. Taking all years together, the overall reduction of about one
fifth per mmol/L LDL cholesterol reduction translated into 48 (95% CI
39-57) fewer participants having major vascular events per 1000 among
those with pre-existing CHD at baseline, compared with 25 09-31) per
1000 among participants with no such history. There was no evidence
that statins increased the incidence of cancer overall (1.00,
0.95-1.06; p=0.9) or at any particular site.
Interpretation Statin therapy can safely reduce the 5-year incidence
of major coronary events, coronary revascularisation, and stroke by
about one fifth per mmol/L reduction in LDL cholesterol, largely
irrespective of the initial lipid profile or other presenting
characteristics. The absolute benefit relates chiefly to an
individual's absolute risk of such events and to the absolute
reduction in LDL cholesterol achieved. These findings reinforce the
need to consider prolonged statin treatment with substantial LDL
cholesterol reductions in all patients at high risk of any type of
major vascular event.
Source Citation
"Efficacy and safety of cholesterol-lowering treatment: prospective
meta-analysis of data from 90 056 participants in 14 randomised trials
of statins." The Lancet 366.9493 (2005): 1267+. Health Reference
Center Academic. Web. 3 Feb. 2010. <http://find.galegroup.com/gtx/
start.do?prodId=HRCA&userGroupName=bergen_remote>.
Gale Document Number:A137547733
John R. Carroll
He was answering a reporters question in, I believe, an interview and he
said we were going to try, convict and execute the guy that was going to be
moved to New York for trial. I saw the video but can't remember where. I
think either "Face the Nation" or "This Week"
He said it just like that.
He can't do that.
>I thought it was Holder. I must have missed
> something.
>
>
>> Judges grant changes of venue every day because of exactly this sort
>> of thing.
>> You know all of this so I'll assume you are jerking my chain.
>
> Well, if Obama said something prejudicial, that's different.
He did, and now that I'm thinking about it, George Will was the one that
made the point about how prejudicial it was and would end up guaranteeing a
predisposed jury pool.
>But
> Holder is just the government's chief prosecutor.
>
>
>> Maybe Tom Gardner will jump in with an inane burst of polemic for us
>> all.
>
> Why not? He probably doesn't know anything about it, so it's his kind
> of topic. <g>
LOL
The glove DO fit <G>
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
'Don't know. I didn't read the whole thread. But FWIW, *I* don't trust
Lancet articles. <g>
They're too enamored of speculative research. If BMJ, JAMA, or NEJM doesn't
pick it up within a few months, I tend to be wary of Lancet.
>And, when you start looking at the
>side effects... well, it's better to just maybe put it out of your
>mind and hope that you don't keel over.
I take five pills and pump insulin into myself every day. I have other
things to think about when it comes to medical treatment. Statins don't
bother me. I laugh at statins. d8-)
John R. Carroll
You don't see the conflict when a government regulatory agency that owns two
competitors indicates that it's unsafe to use the product of a third party
thet it competes with?
HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
That is the very definition of conflict of interest. Legislators have been
removed from office for less.
--
John R. Carroll
Joseph Gwinn
<5338f8b6-1e0c-48b3...@q30g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> On Feb 3, 8:24�am, Joseph Gwinn <joegw...@comcast.net> wrote:
> > In short, vaccines do not cause autism. �So, get your shots. �And, more
> > to the point, make sure your kids get their shots.
> >
> > <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504154411579195
> > 2.html?mod=WSJ_Opinion_AboveLEFTTop>
> >
> > The Wall Street Journal, 3 February 2010.
> >
> > There is a news article on page A8 of the same issue:
> >
> > "Lancet Retracts Study Tying Vaccine to Autism",
> >
> > <http://online.wsj.com/article/SB1000142405274870402280457504121243736442
> > 0.html>
> >
> > Access is gratis today.
> >
> > Joe Gwinn
>
> I strongly agree.
One thing about the vaccine scare versus other scares is that the other
scares cost only money, while the vaccine scare has been killing people,
especially children.
It's behind a paywall, but some years ago The New England Journal of
Medicine published an article from The Institute of Medicine that
analyzed all evidence then available and found no connection between
vaccines (with or without mercury) and autism.
Out of the 44 replies in this thread, only a handful were on vaccines
and autism.
Joe Gwinn
Too_Many_Tools
Yes...I see the "possible" conflict of interest...and I understand
your argument.
But John...it is TRUE.
If this defect were applied to aircraft, entire fleets would be
grounded.
This recall is not like others.
This is a defect that can and has killed.
And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
defect waiting to happen again.
If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
have the same opinion?
Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
your pitchfork for their management.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> In article
> <5338f8b6-1e0c-48b3-9282-5cec116db...@q30g2000vbi.googlegroups.com>,
>
> - Show quoted text -
I agree with you...it is an important issue.
My other comments were not meant to distract from its importance.
TMT
John R. Carroll
> On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>> On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>>>>> news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>
>>
>> You don't see the conflict when a government regulatory agency that
>> owns two competitors indicates that it's unsafe to use the product
>> of a third party thet it competes with?
>>
>> HAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHA.
>> That is the very definition of conflict of interest. Legislators
>> have been removed from office for less.
>> >
> your argument.
>
> But John...it is TRUE.
What's true?
>
> If this defect were applied to aircraft, entire fleets would be
> grounded.
They didn't ground the Airbus A340 (?) fleet a year or so ago when it turned
out that sensor errors, compounded by a software defect, had been crashing
A340's for a decade.
The DC-10 fleet wasn't grounded, even when engines started falling off or
when it became known that the elevator jack screw mechanisms were defective
and the fleet started flying into the ground FCS.
You are entitled to your own opinions but not your own facts.
>
> This recall is not like others.
Not like the Corvair, Pinto, or Vega recall's?
LOL
>
> This is a defect that can and has killed.
Like Fords "Exploder's".
You know, when the entire fleet of those vehicles over ten years had been
built without enough tire on them.
>
> And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
> defect waiting to happen again.
The defect is easily overcome when it manifests. You shut the damned car
off, and no - they steering doesn't lock.
You can't turn the key that far without shifting the transmission.
That cop in San Diego died because he was a retard. He got his Darwin.
He killed himself and his friends needlessly.
>
> If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
> have the same opinion?
I spent last week moving stuff hundreds of miles in an affected Sequoia and
Tundra.
>
> Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
> your pitchfork for their management.
Toyota realized about a year and a half ago that they needed to step up
their quality management.
They'd reduced vendor survey's and a bunch of other stuff to lower costs.
They have been restoring the quality management structure that their
reputation was built on and had replaced the top dog with the guy that is
now, and has been, doing that.
Toyota shareholders have already taken that haircut.
--
John R. Carroll
dav19...@nowhere.invalid
<joeg...@comcast.net> wrote:
>One thing about the vaccine scare versus other scares is that the other
>scares cost only money, while the vaccine scare has been killing people,
>especially children.
You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.
Dave
John R. Carroll
You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply during
her stint running the Red Cross.
There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as the
result of her "expert" management.
--
John R. Carroll
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
Apparently it's not like this GM recall either.
http://www.time.com/time/magazine/article/0,9171,910184,00.html One of
the differences being that back then, when a much higher percentage of
a larger number of affected vehicles suffered the problem, a much
higher percentage of drivers knew to stand on the brake pedal and shut
off the engine. Unlike today, when even a whiff of such a thing will
send scads of owners to the dealership to moan like hysterical
Nancies.
Here's a plain-old mechanical defect example of the same irrational
fearfulness. http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=20014 The
problem is that a piece of flexible tubing was used for oil transport,
and it sometimes fails. Unheard of, right? <guffaw> Anyway, it seems
that most who read about the problem freaked out, creating what may be
the longest thread on that forum. Most of the participants were
compelled to substitute an all-metal alternative. Apparently flexible
hoses can no longer be trusted... except for all the other uses these
owners haven't heard of, because the only thing that most of them
understand about mechanical things is whether or not the waiting area
at the dealer service dept. has WiFi. :-)
>> This is a defect that can and has killed.
>
>Like Fords "Exploder's".
>You know, when the entire fleet of those vehicles over ten years had been
>built without enough tire on them.
>
>>
>> And you have millions of affected cars on the road each day...with the
>> defect waiting to happen again.
>
>The defect is easily overcome when it manifests. You shut the damned car
>off, and no - they steering doesn't lock.
>You can't turn the key that far without shifting the transmission.
>That cop in San Diego died because he was a retard. He got his Darwin.
>He killed himself and his friends needlessly.
But, but, but, we must reward his driving "skill" by identifying with
him! <snorf>
BTW, here's a rather unclear illustration of the actual Toyota gas
pedal mod. http://rav4world.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=24773
>> If your family was killed tomorrow by an affected car, would you still
>> have the same opinion?
>
>I spent last week moving stuff hundreds of miles in an affected Sequoia and
>Tundra.
>
>>
>> Since you sound like a Toyota stockholder, I would be sharpening up
>> your pitchfork for their management.
I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.
I expect that it will turn out to be hundreds of genuinely affected
parts, with perhaps even dozens of accidents. Which isn't very earth
shattering. More importantly, there will be hundreds or maybe even
thousands of lawsuits, many of which will be filed by oldsters who
stepped on the wrong pedal and seek to blame somebody else for it. The
Sturm und Drang is going to have far more affect than the actual
problem. It will become another unnecessary drag on the economy,
another distraction from taking care of far more important issues, and
add more grease to the skids of national neurosis. The whole thing is
shaping up much like the Audi nuttiness.
http://www.automobile.com/audi-investigated-for-unintended-acceleration.html.
Sensible people won't want to be cheerleaders for sequels to that
delusional behavior. Alas, sensible people have become the minority.
The rest see even the shortest snippet of overwrought sensationalism
on the tube, and feel compelled to become zombies for the cause.
What's really frightening is to see how easily people can be whipped
into a frenzy.There are probably going to be accidents caused by
people who don't even own Toyotas, driving off the road to avoid them.
I suppose it's a corollary of lottery ticket buying - both caused by
an absolute inability to put things into a reasonable perspective.
>Toyota realized about a year and a half ago that they needed to step up
>their quality management.
>They'd reduced vendor survey's and a bunch of other stuff to lower costs.
>They have been restoring the quality management structure that their
>reputation was built on and had replaced the top dog with the guy that is
>now, and has been, doing that.
>
>Toyota shareholders have already taken that haircut.
Wayne
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
I can't find it. What I saw was Gibbs saying, on CNN's "State of the Union,"
that he was going to "meet his maker," and that "he's likely to be
executed."
Bad news, but Gibbs is just a press guy.
Anyway, it's something that I don't like to hear, but the specific effect it
will have on a trial sort of...depends. If Obama said it himself (a
stupidity that he's not likely to engage), that could wreck the case. With
Gibbs....'dunno.
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
Obama: U.S. Will Convict, Execute Mohammed
"In one of a series of TV interviews during his trip to Asia, Mr. Obama said
those offended by the legal privileges given to Mohammed by virtue of
getting a civilian trial rather than a military tribunal won't find it
"offensive at all when he's convicted and when the death penalty is applied
to him.""
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2009/11/18/politics/main5694765.shtml
And yeah, he quickly "explained" his remark but so what?
Any half assed defense guy worth his salt is going right after this.
--
John R. Carroll
Ed Huntress
"John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
<g> Ok, we'll see where it gets him.
--
Ed Huntress
John R. Carroll
It gets him in a dunce cap in my book.
It's as dumb as making crude remarks when you are miked because you thought
the mike was off.
There might be real consequences in this case. Some bells can't be
unrung....
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
> I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
> defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.
The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih
this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.
The recognized that something might be problematic as far back as 1999.
--
John R. Carroll
F. George McDuffee
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
<snip>
>I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad as hell
>if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
>My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to mess with
>sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
>
>--
>John R. Carroll
How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?
It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
gas peddles.
Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
appears to have software bugs.
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/?hpt=T1
Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
<snip>
The company changed its braking system software in January as
part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.
Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
to take hold.
<snip>
================
Anyone know who developed Toyota's software and what kinds of
validation/checking were performed, and if software quality
control was recently "right sized" or software development was
"out sourced?" Also what other vehicle manufacturers are using
this software/program?
Unka George (George McDuffee)
..............................
The past is a foreign country;
they do things differently there.
L. P. Hartley (1895-1972), British author.
The Go-Between, Prologue (1953).
John R. Carroll
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> <snip>
>> I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
>> as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
>> My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
>> mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
>>
>> --
>> John R. Carroll
> ===========
> How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
> important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?
They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and they
could easily have taken official action if they thought lives were
significantly at risk.
>
> It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
> deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
> gas peddles.
>
> Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
> appears to have software bugs.
>
>
http://edition.cnn.com/2010/WORLD/asiapcf/02/04/japan.prius.complaints/?hpt=T1
> Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
> Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
> to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
> <snip>
> The company changed its braking system software in January as
> part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
> not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.
>
> Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
> vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
> than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
> will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
> to take hold.
The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before the
brakes come on.
That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more of the
wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
That wouldn't be good.
Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?
--
John R. Carroll
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>wmbjk...@citlink.net wrote:
>
>
>> I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
>> defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2 million.
>
>The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last decade wih
>this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.
That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?
>The recognized that something might be problematic as far back as 1999.
That too seems unlikely. The pedals at issue are the throttle by wire
type, which didn't come into wide use until 2002. It's hard to believe
that they've been using the exact same problematic design all this
time.
Obviously unintended acceleration itself has a long history, with a
bunch of different makes and models.
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2009/12/sudden-unintended-acceleration-sua-analysis-2008-toyota-lexus-ford-gm.html
Notice how the number of Toyota complaints increased after the
publicity. Check out this one: �My 2008 Prius accelerated almost out
of control. I was merging onto an expressway when the accelerator
seemed to have a life of its own and took off at an incredibly high
rate of speed�� I can go along with the claim that the throttle
pulled a hissy fit, but "incredibly high rate of speed", in a Prius?
That driver's credibility is toast.
As with everything else these days, nobody wants to admit driver error
after an accident. A whole lot of these cases are oldsters, sometimes
like this one yesterday, and frequently with nothing more than
anecdotes in place of independent investigation of the cause.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&ArticleID=35965&TM=51498.13
A year ago there was an even stranger one.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?Search=1&ArticleID=30863&SectionID=1&SubSectionID=1&S=1.
There must be thousands of these every year, and from now on a far
larger percentage will be blamed on unintended acceleration. The
number of complaints about the issue for *all* makes is going to
skyrocket, and the belief that Toyotas have a mind of their own will
become as true as that one can catch a cold from going out in the
cold. In fact, I won't be surprised if the new Toyota narrative
becomes the leading "cause" of fender benders, late to work,
unfinished homework, etc. :-)
This article http://suddenacceleration.com/?p=327 echoes some of my
comments, but ones like that are about to become lost in the noise.
Ironically, all the attention will result in better investigations,
which once again, will show that most of this stuff is blown all out
of proportion. Not that it will make any more difference than telling
people that colds are caused by viruses.
Wayne
John R. Carroll
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
>> wmbjk...@citlink.net wrote:
>>
>>
>>> I saw one exec claim that there were something like 8 confirmed
>>> defective parts (pedal pivots dragging or sticking) out of 2
>>> million.
>>
>> The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people in the last
>> decade wih this defect than every other maunfacturer combined.
>
> That seems highly unlikely. Got any cites?
NPR here in LA had an hour on this last week.
SHAPIRO: What, specifically, is the committee looking at here?
LANGFITT: Well, they're asking for lots of documents. And what they've said,
is they want to know when Toyota and the National Highway Traffic Safety
Administration first learned about these potential safety problems and what
they did to investigate and try to resolve them. Now the committee said this
in a statement, I'm kind of quoting here, our government figures show nearly
twice as many people died in Toyotas from sudden acceleration problems in
the last decade than in cars from all other automakers combined. So thats
another thing theyre really very interested in, is the number and the volume
and how many of those are Toyotas.
http://www.npr.mobi/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123098947.
--
John R. Carroll
Pete Snell
> "Pete Snell" <sne...@rmc.ca> wrote in message
> news:4b69a557$1...@win9.rmc.ca...
>> And away we go............!
>>
>> Existential Angst wrote:
<SNIP>
>>>
>>> I'm not a big fan of the shennanigans that go on in homeopathy (and
>>> chiropractic), but you should know that homeopathy is at least rooted in
>>> science, and reputable chiropractic is a god-sent therapy.
>> Please explain how Homeopathy is rooted in Science.
>
> Some of its principles, see below.
I'm still unclear on this assertion.
>>> Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
>>> 10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to
>>> even comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per
>>> 10,000,000) is homeopathic, imo.
>> So dilute solutions of medicines and hormones work? No surprise there.
>> That's Medicine, not Homeopathy.
>
> Except medicine traditionally doesn't use natural substances. In fact, you
> can go to jail claiming vitamins can cure anything -- a proscription so
> absurd, it's like.... it's like.... sheeit, it's like WT#7 falling down
> all by its self!!!
What advantages do 'natural substances' have over other substances?
>
> The Q is: are there natural substances (typically plant extracts) that work
> at 10^-12?
> Proly.
> The Q is: which ones?
What do you consider to be a 'plant extract'? If the substances work,
why must they be diluted to such degree? And for the record, Homeopathic
dilutions are far beyond those, typically 10^20 to 10^50 (!) Try this
link for a better explanation than I could give here.
<http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BWE1tH93G9U>
>
>
<snip>
>> Yes. Easier to claim conspiracy than look at real problems. Homeopathy
>> takes money from peoples wallets and gives them false hope. That's what it
>> does. Pointing out any shortcomings in other 'modalities' doesn't change
>> that.
>
> I won't dispute that much of homeopathy is a con.
> But if you're going to bash, bash equitably, in proportion to the total
> rip-off.
Why? Why am I not allowed to bash the worst first?
> The conjobs foisted on us by Big Pharm dwarfs that of homeopathy et al by,
> heh, mebbe Avogadro's number.
>
> If you can't see John Q Pubic as but fleeced fish in a barrel, then you are
> not seeing "real problems".
> Conspiracy is actually how things work. It's really just a matter if the
> conspiracies are legal or illegal.
> Most are certainly immoral -- sheeit, the formation of HD was a conspiracy.
> Dats why you have to now drive 15 miles to get hardware.
>
> But, for some strange reason, HD, Staples, and Merck are legal, so we don't
> think of them as conspiracies.
>
> Cuz, well, we are fish.
Well, maybe. But the difference (as I see it) Is that Home Depot et
al actually give me something for my money.
Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
It is a miracle that curiosity survives formal education.
Albert Einstein (1879-1955)
Bill McKee
Homeopathy is the basis for modern drugs. Modern Aspirin, is manufactured
Willow bark. A big percentage of modern drugs are based off of natural
chemical compounds. How come so much research is being done in tropical
forests?
dav19...@nowhere.invalid
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>dav19...@nowhere.invalid wrote:
>> You wanna see a vaccine body count? Google "simian virus 40". This
>> virus made its way into the polio vaccine supply and caused millions
>> of cases of cancers in the vaccinated population.
>You could also look at what Elizabeth Dole did to the blood supply during
>her stint running the Red Cross.
>There are quite a number of hemophiliacs with AIDS and Hepatitis as the
>result of her "expert" management.
My sister is a nurse who happens to manage a hospital unit that cares
for people who are being slow killed by Bayer pharmaceutical's (and
the others involved) hemophiliac products.
These people:
John R. Carroll
It's pretty bad.
A lot of people have payed for Elizabeth Dole's mistake managing the blood
supply.
Many commercial companies got, and still get, dignificant quantities of
their blood from the Red Cross. It's the largest bank in the world, or was
anyway.
Dole went on to the US Senate after her run at the Red Cross.
--
John R. Carroll
Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
Sounds like a lot of excuses John.
Tell us...if your family was killed by this defect, would your opinon
be the same?
Your concern is over the current economic haircut you are getting for
betting against GM and Chrysler.
You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of my
family on the road with the Toyota death traps.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
You might want to include Ronnie Regan in that too.
His ignorance killed many Americans in regards to AIDS.
Several of them were my friends who were hemophiliacs.
Stupid bastard.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
associates.us> wrote:
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
> <snip>>I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad as hell
> >if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
> >My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to mess with
> >sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
>
> >--
> >John R. Carroll
>
> ===========
> How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
> important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?
>
> It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
> deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
> gas peddles.
>
> Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
> appears to have software bugs.
>
As I have predicted.
It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> F. George McDuffee wrote:
> > On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 10:50:27 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> > <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> > <snip>
> >> I wonder if these turkey's EVER think before they speak. I'd be mad
> >> as hell if I were a Toyota shareholder right about now.
> >> My tax payments would have just enabled one of my competitors to
> >> mess with sales figures and the valuation of my equity.
>
> >> --
> >> John R. Carroll
> > ===========
> > How are the "sales figures and valuation of my equity" more
> > important than the live and limb of the taxpayers?
>
> They aren't necessarily George but you know, LaHood runs the DOT and they
> could easily have taken official action if they thought lives were
> significantly at risk.
>
>
>
> > It now appears Toyota's accelerator and brake problems go far
> > deeper than a too thick floor mat or excessively "value analysed"
> > gas peddles.
>
> > Their entire "fly by wire" vehicle computer control system
> > appears to have software bugs.
>
>
> > Tokyo, Japan (CNN) -- Without issuing a recall of its iconic
> > Prius hybrid vehicles, Toyota said Thursday a software glitch is
> > to blame for braking problems in the 2010 model.
> > <snip>
> > The company changed its braking system software in January as
> > part of what it called "constant quality improvements," but did
> > not say what it would do about vehicles manufactured before then.
>
> > Toyota officials described the problem as a "disconnect" in the
> > vehicle's complex anti-lock brake system (ABS) that causes less
> > than a one-second lag. With the delay, a vehicle going 60 mph
> > will have traveled nearly another 90 feet before the brakes begin
> > to take hold.
>
> The braking isn't what lags George. It's the ABS control.
> CNN makes it sound as though a vehicle is going to travel 90' before the
> brakes come on.
> That isn't the case. You might, however, travel 90' with one or more of the
> wheels locked before the ABS system cycles.
> That wouldn't be good.
>
> Let's all tilt at windmills, shall we?
>
> --
> John R. Carroll
John...it sounds like you love your money more than you love your
family.
A safety defect is a safety defect.
It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
compared to the loss of life.
It is also interesting to note that these defects were allowed to
fester during the Bush years.
TMT
John R. Carroll
> On Feb 3, 9:32 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>> On Feb 3, 5:48 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>>>> On Feb 3, 3:46 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>> Too_Many_Tools wrote:
>>>>>>> On Feb 3, 12:50 pm, "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>> Ed Huntress wrote:
>>>>>>>>> "John R. Carroll" <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote in message
>>>>>>>>> news:dJKdnYSMoO6gKvTW...@giganews.com...
>>>>>>>>>> F. George McDuffee wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 09:20:03 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>>>>>>>>>>> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>> <snip>
>>
>
> be the same?
Yes, it would.
>
> Your concern is over the current economic haircut you are getting for
> betting against GM and Chrysler.
No it isn't.
>
> You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of my
> family on the road with the Toyota death traps.
I have no concern for the safety of your family at all.
It isn't even relevant in the context of this conversation.
The DOT hasn't given owners any guidance at all and they could.
Had LaHood really believed what he'd said, it would have been simple enough
for him to have issued a DOT directive to owners.
He didn't.
--
John R. Carroll
John R. Carroll
> family.
>
> A safety defect is a safety defect.
OK then.
Why didn't the DOT do something?
They still haven't.
>
> It is unfortunate that you have lost money on Toyota but it palls
> compared to the loss of life.
I haven't, not on Toyota.
--
John R. Carroll
Pete Snell
>
> Homeopathy is the basis for modern drugs. Modern Aspirin, is manufactured
> Willow bark. A big percentage of modern drugs are based off of natural
> chemical compounds. How come so much research is being done in tropical
> forests?
Bill;
I think you are confusing Naturopathy with Homeopathy. That probably
makes the Homeopaths happy.
Pete
--
Pete Snell
Department of Physics
Royal Military College
Kingston, Ontario,
Canada
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
The reasonable man adapts himself to the world;
the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself.
Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.
George Bernard Shaw (1856-1950)
Joe
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
>Considering that we have MILLIONS of cars out there RIGHT NOW on the
>roads that can become a deadly missile AT ANY TIME I think the warning
>was warranted.
>
>If any of us have family members killed by this defect, their opinons
>will change.
>
>TMT
Last year I ws thinking that the Michael Jackson death/funeral story
was going to be the most tedious, repetitious news item ever. Turns
out that the Toyota recall has eclipsed it by leaps & bounds. It's the
leading story everywhere, with Chicken Littles flopping around all
over the country.
"Educated" people can sit around all day and skillfully field a "dream
team" for their favorite sport using reliable game stats, then track
the putative performance of said team throughout the season.
Unfortunately, the same people are woefully unable to grasp the
concept/odds of a few dozens of failures out of millions of vehicles.
Science and logical thinking is anathema in this country nowadays.
When I hear reports of people rejecting Toyotas because of the bad
press, I can't help but wonder how many of these mutha-, err, folks
think nothing of pulling out their cell phones and yammering away as
they drive in blissful solitude. A 3 ton missile controlled by a very
defective "logic module".
Toyota needs to fix the problems, and the US needs to get on with real
issues.
Joe
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
Well, there you go. The guy said he was "kind of quoting", and I can't
find anything to back up his recollection. The link I posted shows
that before the most recent round of publicity, Toyota was at 41% of
the U.A. (unintended acceleration) complaints, which is more than
double their market share. Except that obviously the complaint stats
are based on relatively small numbers of mostly unverifiable and
highly subjective owner reports, which appear to be instantly and
hugely affected by negative news stories. In fact, the number jumped
to 48% in just a few months after reports about the cop who forgot
that his shifter had a neutral position, and that one ought to know
how to shut off a vehicle before starting it up. Death rates could be
different from complaint rates, but at least one other article I
remember reading claimed that there weren't any official unintended
acceleration death numbers for any manufacturer other than Toyota. Yet
this article http://www.just-auto.com/article.aspx?id=101983 says: "It
reported the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people
died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota
vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such
deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers". Notice the qualifier
"possible", which reflects the fact that in a lot of these cases,
especially those of potential electronic or software anomalies, it
might be impossible for anyone to know for sure which accidents were
truly due to U.A. It would only take a few erroneous anecdotal
accident reports to skew the figures.
Anyway, thanks to all the hysteria, six months down the road Toyota's
complaint numbers will be substantially worse even though the cars
haven't really changed a bit. Death numbers will probably increase as
well because drivers will have a handy and socially plausible
scapegoat. and cops will be more likely to take their word for it.
Drivers of all makes will consider it more acceptable than ever to
skip learning how to stop their car in an emergency. And five years
from now when the dust settles but we're still paying off about a
billion spent on addressing the hysteria, we could well be looking
back at the whole thing as the automotive equivalent of Y2K.
Now, just for fun, let's say that there are 30 million Toyotas built
in the last decade and still on the road in the US, and for the sake
of argument only, that 20 owners really did die in them from U.A. That
would mean that if one drove a Toyota for a decade, his odds of being
killed in it due to U.A. are 1 in 1.5 million, or about half as likely
as dying from dog bite. http://funny2.com/odds.htm Therefore, if the
US share of Toyota's costs is 1 billion, and we think that's a good
investment, then we ought to be spending 2 billion to prevent dog
bites. :-)
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.
Every manufacturer has always had the same "problem". There will
always be defects, and some of them will get blown out of proportion
by people who should have learned from the Audi fiasco. You in
particular should know better. I bet you didn't enjoy the phony
narrative about the GOP being tough on national security, and neither
did you think much of the people who fell for it. So why fall into the
same trap with this new one? Here's a simple fact: a lot of lives and
money could be saved if people would take minimal responsibility for
learning more about a lot of things, including how better to operate a
motor vehicle. Compared to that, all the machinations that will come
of the latest fear mongering will save next to nothing. For example,
imagine if the *billions* that are about to go down the drain mostly
to counter negative publicity, was spent instead on say, improving the
traction of galoshes. :-)
Wayne
John R. Carroll
Frnak McKenney
On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:27:40 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools <too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
[...]
--- Now chopped completely out of context: --
> You sound more concerned about making money than for the safety of
> my family on the road with the Toyota death traps.
This statement bothers me because, if you expand "money" to
"deriving benefit", this statement would seem to apply to all
concerned: Toyota, the USDOT, and the media. Heck, _I'm_ getting
another three seconds of fame (from my fifteen minutes) simply by
joining in the discussion.
I admit that I'm not the CEO of an automobile company -- and so far
no-one has offered to pay me to play one on TV -- but if I were, and
my first concern was the safety of my customers (I suspect that
being killed in a Toyota significantly reduces the chances that that
particular customer will purchase another any time soon), wouldn't I
have taken some sort of preventative measures as soon as it became
clear that this was a problem?
I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as
possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so
I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if
the problem occurred anyway.
(It's entirely possible that some group already _has_ issued some
straightforward "If you see this, here's what you do" advice, and I
just haven't noticed it. If that's the case, then please feel free
to ignore this little rant and skip ahead to the next-in-thread.)
I'm not talking about a massive recall. That might or might not
have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about
the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter --
illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing:
o What kind of problem has been reported in general terms, just
so people don't start worrying when they see (e.g.) a rust spot
on the fender.
o What models are (might be) affected.
o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). A
properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
o Include a paragraph clarifying what should and should not be
done in a Toyota (or those specific Toyota models) if the pedal
sticks, whether as a result of this problem or any other reason
(including the customer failing to ever have the accelerator
cable greased bucause he/she/it skipped their 5,000-through-
50,000 mile service visits).
o Finally, let the owners know that Toyota is about to provide
a fix through its distributors, and recommend that the owner
register their car model, s/n, and any information they care to
provide via the internet or the above 800-number.
Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast
through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully)
have two effects:
1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any
possible upcoming lawsuits), and
2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured.
And yet, I don't see Toyota doing this. I don't see the USDOT doing
it. And I don't see the "investigative journalists" in the media
doing it. I've seen a number of suggestions here and elsewhere, but
a Toyota-engineering-issued recommendation for appropriate actions
could settle all sorts of critical issues that we on the sidelines
debate with a lot more time at our disposal than a Toyota driver
with a stuck accelerator pedal would have:
o Shift gears? Or Not?
o Turn the ignition off? Or not? (the "locking" problem, power for
steering)
o Use the brakes? Or not?
Of course, making up things like this is a lot easier for me. I
don't have to worry about millions of customers, multiple thousands
of stockholders, or the image of my administraton. But the
discussions of the details of the problem and the debates about its
workarounds -- in the media and elsewhere -- would likely result in
an increased awareness of what can go wrong with an automobile, and
what one could, should, and shouldn't do if it did.
And _that_ should please many (most?) of those following this
newsgroup. <grin!>
I think it's time for another mug of tea.
Frank McKenney
--
The journey of a thousand miles begins with a broken fan belt or
a leaky tire.
--
Frank McKenney, McKenney Associates
Richmond, Virginia / (804) 320-4887
Munged E-mail: frank uscore mckenney ayut mined spring dawt cahm (y'all)
Too_Many_Tools
>
> - Show quoted text -
Then why the focus on Toyota's stock price?
And you had nothing to say about GM or Chrysler's stock price drops
earlier?
TMT
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Wed, 3 Feb 2010 15:22:16 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
The reason is the Toyota problem has killed and will kill again.
It can kill you and your family at time...even if you do not own a
Toyota.
If you do not understand that, your family should kick you in the
pants for your total lack of regard for their welfare.
Jackson's story was the typical celebrity story that Americans
love...remember the buzz around Elvis?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 12:40:56 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
>
>
>
>
>
> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
> >> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 10:55:11 -0800, "John R. Carroll"
> >> <nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
>
> reported the NHTSA said its records show that a total of 15 people
> died in crashes related to possible sudden acceleration in Toyota
> vehicles from the 2002 model year and newer, compared with 11 such
> deaths in vehicles made by all other automakers". Notice the qualifier
> "possible", which reflects the fact that in a lot of these cases,
> especially those of potential electronic or software anomalies, it
> might be impossible for anyone to know for sure which accidents were
> truly due to U.A. It would only take a few erroneous anecdotal
> accident reports to skew the figures.
>
> Anyway, thanks to all the hysteria, six months down the road Toyota's
> complaint numbers will be substantially worse even though the cars
> haven't really changed a bit. Death numbers will probably increase as
> well because drivers will have a handy and socially plausible
> scapegoat. and cops will be more likely to take their word for it.
> Drivers of all makes will consider it more acceptable than ever to
> skip learning how to stop their car in an emergency. And five years
> from now when the dust settles but we're still paying off about a
> billion spent on addressing the hysteria, we could well be looking
> back at the whole thing as the automotive equivalent of Y2K.
>
> Now, just for fun, let's say that there are 30 million Toyotas built
> in the last decade and still on the road in the US, and for the sake
> of argument only, that 20 owners really did die in them from U.A. That
> would mean that if one drove a Toyota for a decade, his odds of being
> killed in it due to U.A. are 1 in 1.5 million, or about half as likely
> US share of Toyota's costs is 1 billion, and we think that's a good
> investment, then we ought to be spending 2 billion to prevent dog
> bites. :-)
>
>
> - Show quoted text -
It is now coming out that Toyota has been killing the majority of the
complaints coming in...
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:43:49 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>
Go read the latest news...Ford has the same problem.
Wanna bet that all the manufacturers have their engineers working on
their systems to make damn sure they don't have the problem?
TMT
Too_Many_Tools
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
> XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota
>
Good comments.
I agree that more info needs to be presented to the user.
That will not happen...unless forced.
The more the company admits to the problem, the larger the economic
hit due to lawsuits.
So companies hide the bad news until it blows up in their face.
The other problem is even if the info is out there, few people pay
attention and will respond properly during an unexpected event.
When you are dealing with a multi thousand pound missile driven by the
typical driver, the last problems you want are unexpected acceleration
or lack of deceleration.
TMT
Jim Wilkins
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
> X...
> o Specific symptoms that precede an actual failure, or how to test
> whether or not a given car is "close to failure". In this
> case, perhaps something along the lines of "With the engine
> OFF, quickly press your accelerator pedal all the way to the
> floor (Figure A), and then quickly release it (Figure B). A
> properly functioning accelerator pedal will immediately return
> to its rest position (Figure C); if this does not occur, please
> call our 800 support number immediately: 800-xxx-xxxx"
> Frank McKenney
I've written test procedures for use by production floor personnel a
few times, and you can't imagine how badly some of them can
misinterpret simple instructions.
"Press any key to continue" is a good example. I had to add a check of
the BIOS memory that shows the CTRL, ALT and SHIFT key states to make
it work. For wise@$$ engineers I made those keys simulate the BSOD
briefly.
jsw
Eregon
b9f4-21c...@f11g2000yqm.googlegroups.com:
> You might want to include Ronnie Regan in that too.
>
> His ignorance killed many Americans in regards to AIDS.
>
> Several of them were my friends who were hemophiliacs.
The best thing to do with hemophiliacs is to let them bleed to death
_before_ they pass along that genetic defect.
John R. Carroll
Because the guy that making statements that influence that valuation works
for one of Toyota's competitors as a member of a national government. This
is the sort of thing you see in places like Venezuela. The 401 K's of a lot
of Americans have just taken a hit because of a built in conflict of
interest.
>
> And you had nothing to say about GM or Chrysler's stock price drops
> earlier?
Neither were the result of a statement made by a senior official of a
foriegn power that happened to own one of GM or Chrysler's competitors.
--
John R. Carroll
dav19...@nowhere.invalid
>The best thing to do with hemophiliacs is to let them bleed to death
>_before_ they pass along that genetic defect.
This is exactly the eugenics attitude and goal that the drug companies
followed when they knowingly distributed the tainted blood factor
medicines they had produced. Normal people generally view this as
murder.....not that you are normal.
Dave
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
J.R.C. (above): "The Toyota brand has killed or injured more people
in the last decade with this defect than every other manufacturer
combined."
By posting a link to the NHTSA site, are you trying to say that one
can find evidence of your assertion there? Then why not post the link
to that search, or at least the details of how you or Langfiit arrived
at your conclusion? Why do you suppose that the LA Times, who
apparently mined the same data, didn't get the same results? And why
do you think that they used the very qualified phrase "related to
possible sudden acceleration", while you were able to be so
definitive?
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>On Feb 5, 9:15�am, wmbjkREM...@citlink.net wrote:
>> On Thu, 4 Feb 2010 23:43:49 -0800 (PST), Too_Many_Tools
>>
>> <too_many_to...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>> >It is now reported that Ford has the same problems.
>>
>> Every manufacturer has always had the same "problem". There will
>> always be defects, and some of them will get blown out of proportion
>> by people who should have learned from the Audi fiasco. You in
>> particular should know better. I bet you didn't enjoy the phony
>> narrative about the GOP being tough on national security, and neither
>> did you think much of the people who fell for it. So why fall into the
>> same trap with this new one? Here's a simple fact: a lot of lives and
>> money could be saved if people would take minimal responsibility for
>> learning more about a lot of things, including how better to operate a
>> motor vehicle. Compared to that, all the machinations that will come
>> of the latest fear mongering will save next to nothing. For example,
>> imagine if the *billions* that are about to go down the drain mostly
>> to counter negative publicity, was spent instead on say, improving the
>> traction of galoshes. �:-)
>>
>> Wayne
>
>Go read the latest news...Ford has the same problem.
You're repeating yourself.
>Wanna bet that all the manufacturers have their engineers working on
>their systems to make damn sure they don't have the problem?
Well sure, because they never gave it a moment's thought for the last
decade, even after the Audi debacle, right? Seriously man, you've gone
off the deep end trying to fuel this nonsense. Don't be whinin' next
time some idiot announces "death panels" or whatever, 'cause what
you're doing here is every bit as stupid.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
If one googles "toyota accelerator recall", this is the second result
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/toyota/toyota-consumer-safety-advisory-102572.aspx,
which among other things, takes the reader to here
http://pressroom.toyota.com/pr/tms/customer-faqs-regarding-the-sticking-153495.aspx.
If one doesn't trust Toyota, then the same info along with tons of
comments is widely available. Here are some examples
http://blogs.consumerreports.org/cars/2010/01/how-to-stop-a-runaway-car-five-steps-that-can-save-your-life-toyota-sua.html
http://www.autoblog.com/gallery/how-toyota-is-repairing-sticky-accelerator-pedals/#2
Or just google "runaway toyota" for a half-million hits. Clearly, the
info is there for anyone who wants it. If anything, there's too much
info. All any owner really needs to know is to take his car in for
service when he gets the recall, and in the meantime if there's a
problem, then stand on the brakes immediately and shift into neutral
if necessary. I'd add that *everybody* should be familiar with how
their car's brakes and steering feels when the engine is dead.
Wayne
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<too_man...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>It is now coming out that Toyota has been killing the majority of the
>complaints coming in...
Let's see your evidence for that. And make sure it's something
factual, and not just "somebody says".
Wayne
John R. Carroll
You can get the testimony of any hearing, reports and a lot of other
information.
>Then why not post the link
> to that search, or at least the details of how you or Langfiit arrived
> at your conclusion?
He attended the hearings as part of his job. That is why he was on the
show - to share his observations.
He's a responsible journalist with a good record and my experiance with his
reporting has indicated that he's truthful.
>Why do you suppose that the LA Times, who
> apparently mined the same data, didn't get the same results? And why
> do you think that they used the very qualified phrase "related to
> possible sudden acceleration", while you were able to be so
> definitive?
I'd post the material, it's one ot the links on the page references, but
can't open the file on this computer.
I get a "corrupt file" message.
I know why that is an it's not the file, it's this box and the software
product combination running on it.
I'll publish it here when I'm able.
I'm working a project on the base at Pendleton and only have this box with
me.
I'm only posting at all through a VPN, something I learned to be sure and
set up after my first trip to Iraq.
--
John R. Carroll
Eregon
news:41som51a4bqoovr0g...@4ax.com:
You're quite wrong in both of your ass/umptions, Davy Boy.
Only YOU mentioned anything resembling "treatment". <grin>
In an over-populated world such as ours, there are lots of things that we
can all do without: queers, hemophiliacs, "progressive elements" (an old
Soviet euphemism), crooks, gang-bangers, malaria, cancer, Greenies, etc.
Ed Huntress
"Eregon" <Era...@Saphira.org> wrote in message
news:Xns9D16B058...@74.209.131.10...
Fortunately for the sake of the republic, the conservatives are going to
start pushing their end of the life expectancy scale downward. It's been
discovered that sausage gravy and chicken-fried steak are direct links to
massive heart attacks. Wisely, the medical researchers are keeping it close
to the vest. d8-)
--
Ed Huntress
Edward A. Falk
Existential Angst <UNfi...@UNoptonline.net> wrote:
>
>Hormones, PGs, et al have powerful effects in concentrations as low as
>10^-12 molar, poss. even 10^-13 -- which are dilutions that are hard to even
>comprehend. True, not 10^-23, but even 10^-7 (1 part per 10,000,000) is
>homeopathic, imo.
Yes, but homeopathy works in concentrations like 10^-60 or even 10^-400
for the really "powerful" stuff.
Also, things that work in very low concentrations still work through
understood and tested mechanisms. AFAICT, homeopathy seems to work
on the theory that water has memory of having interacted with other
chemicals, and when dilluted, have the opposite effect, *and* that
opposite effect becomes even stronger with more dillution.
Further, homeopathy has no clinical studies behind it that show
it to work beyond the placebo effect, and plenty of clinical
studies that show that it does *not* work.
>Hope you enjoy your kids never ever ever ever being able to move out of your
>house -- assuming they aren't already autistic..
And once again, the vaccine-autism link has finally been dismissed once
and for all.
--
-Ed Falk, fa...@despams.r.us.com
http://thespamdiaries.blogspot.com/
wmbjk...@citlink.net
<nu...@bidness.dev.nul> wrote:
Sure. But the data needs to be mined, and I don't see how that mining
could ever support Lingfiit's claim. Obviously the Times felt the need
to qualify their conclusion, since there couldn't be NTSB-level
investigations of most of the accidents. And even if there had been,
those investigations could at best only point to possible
accelerator-issue involvement.
>>Then why not post the link
>> to that search, or at least the details of how you or Langfiit arrived
>> at your conclusion?
>
>He attended the hearings as part of his job. That is why he was on the
>show - to share his observations.
>He's a responsible journalist with a good record and my experiance with his
>reporting has indicated that he's truthful.
I don't doubt that, but his statement that he was "kind of quoting"
shouldn't count for much unless he or you can show the actual results
of the data mining.
>>Why do you suppose that the LA Times, who
>> apparently mined the same data, didn't get the same results? And why
>> do you think that they used the very qualified phrase "related to
>> possible sudden acceleration", while you were able to be so
>> definitive?
>
>I'd post the material, it's one ot the links on the page references, but
>can't open the file on this computer.
>I get a "corrupt file" message.
>I know why that is an it's not the file, it's this box and the software
>product combination running on it.
>I'll publish it here when I'm able.
>I'm working a project on the base at Pendleton and only have this box with
>me.
>I'm only posting at all through a VPN, something I learned to be sure and
>set up after my first trip to Iraq.
By now there's no question that the situation has been exaggerated,
and we're only at the beginning of what promises to be the mother of
all be-vewwwy-afraid hype bonanzas. I'm looking forward to seeing any
factual evidence you have in order to estimate how much exaggeration.
In the meantime, here are some previews of the types of issues that
will be generated. http://www.manhattan-institute.org/html/cjm_18.htm
http://www.autosafety.org/audi-sudden-acceleration Last line of the
second article: "In closing the investigation, one factor NHTSA relied
upon was the fact that there had been three recalls and a service
campaign attempting to correct the human factors design errors;
87V-008, 87V-009, and 87V-170. None of these recalls eliminated sudden
acceleration in the Audi 5000." And it will be the same this time,
because when you have millions of vehicles, it's predictable that a
small percentage of their drivers will perform some interesting tricks
with them, and then try to blame the car. In fact, it would be a
miracle if there *weren't* hundreds of attempts to blame the car.
BTW, the initial reports of "possible medical issues" in the runaway
vehicle example I quoted yesterday have been revised.
http://www.kingmandailyminer.com/main.asp?SectionID=1&subsectionID=1&articleID=35990
I mention that to point out how subjective these reports can be. And
check out the comments... there's already speculation about the
Pontiac Vibe being subject of the recall. I wonder what the driver's
defense will be based on? <sigh>
Wayne
John R. Carroll
It isn't either his claim or mine.
It's something that was given in testimony at the hearings he attended.
I should have poined that out in my original post.
--
John R. Carroll
Frnak McKenney
> On Feb 5, 9:56�am, Frnak McKenney
><fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>> XMetal-Content: accelerator pedal, cable, wrecked Toyota
>> I know that if I were a Toyota owner I'd want to know as early as
>> possible (a) if I were likely to be affected, (b) warning signs so
>> I could avoid the problem before it occurred, and (c) what to do if
>> the problem occurred anyway.
>> I'm not talking about a massive recall. �That might or might not
>> have been appropriate early on, depending on what Toyota knew about
>> the problem and when. I'm thinking of a simple letter --
>> illustrated with Charts'n'Diagrams -- describing:
>> Mailing such a letter -- and having the information broadcast
>> through the USDOT, state xxDOTs, and the media -- would (hopefully)
>> have two effects:
>>
>> 1) Demonstrate Toyota's concern with its customers (useful in any
>> possible upcoming lawsuits), and
>> 2) Decrease the number of persons killed or injured.
>>
>> I think it's time for another mug of tea.
>>
>> Frank McKenney
Thanks, TMT. I appreciate the feedback.
> I agree that more info needs to be presented to the user.
>
> That will not happen...unless forced.
>
> The more the company admits to the problem, the larger the
> economic hit due to lawsuits.
>
> So companies hide the bad news until it blows up in their face.
Sounds like the same kind of situation that so many politicians have
faced... and then tried to cover up. The "accepted wisdom" as
voiced by the media is that it's better to come clean early on and
then do one's best to "work past it", but I can understand why
that's hard for most people to do in practice.
"Going public" with a problem -- of any kind, to any audience -- is
long-term thinking, and long-term thinking requires some kind of
faith in the future. It requires a belief that dealing with the
consequences of one's screwup, however bad it might have been, are
_not_ the worst thing that could happen. For small screwups this is
easier, as the consequences are generally smaller; being able to
deal with the really big stuff requires believing in something
larger and more important than one's self.
> The other problem is even if the info is out there, few people pay
> attention and will respond properly during an unexpected event.
This is one place where I believe that directed communication can be
more effective than a simple "broadcast" of information. You want
(anyway, _I_ would want <grin!>) this mythical letter to be directed
specifically to the owners of any potentially affected Toyota
models/years, perhaps followed up by robot-calls to make sure the
letter was received.
Sure, follow up with a general announcement directed at the media,
but the key would be to directly address those likely to be
affected, rather than informing (harassing?) the general public.
Now, I admit that I'm speaking from a position rather distant from
the fray (and today, a somewhat snow-covered one <grin!>), since I
don't own a Toyota and I don't run the company. Still, I'd think
that owners would be more reassured by hearing about a problem first
in writing, from the manufacturer, and directed at them personally,
than they would be by hearing rumors from the media, politicians,
and bureaucrats. If the company missive gets there first, the
company might be seen as "screwing up but concerned"; otherwise,
they're "uncaring and had to be forced".
> When you are dealing with a multi thousand pound missile driven by
> the typical driver, the last problems you want are unexpected
> acceleration or lack of deceleration.
>
> TMT
Agreed. And you can't expect every driver to always be expertly
trained on handling vehicular emergencies and constantly aware of
every facet of driving: the road, the vehicle's behavior, other
vehicles (visible and not-yet-visible), passengers, pedestians,
falling trees, etc. By the same token, you cannot absolutely
guarantee that every potential design flaw in a vehicle is
identified and fixed before that vehicle hits the showroom.
It's a tough universe.
Frank
--
Never test the depth of the water with both feet.
Too_Many_Tools
<fr...@far.from.the.madding.crowd.com> wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
Again good comments Frank.
It is unfortunate but it is quite apparent that Toyota has been riding
their reputation for some time while squashing complaints both
externally and internally.
They will pay dearly for it...as they should.
That is the price of not dealing problems when they are small and
easily dealt with.
Reminds me of the health care situation...
TMT