Opening a Machine shop
oddjo...@my-deja.com
do companies look for in a machine shop? Would
they look at experience? Should I go to nearby
companies advertising my service? If so, who
should I talk to?
Jody
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mickey
one-off ?
There's machine shops and machine shops... In any business, the clearer
you are about what you want to do, the better your chances for success.
Of course, sometimes a market appears that is not the one you thought
you had and the tail ends up walking the dog, if your eyes are open and
you can take advantage when opportunity presents itself.
Good luck
UntMaintco
Starting a shop is not quite as easy as it seems. Usually you need a good
customer and a promise of work before you do any thing.
Even in my own experiance with having a machine shop, even if you set up to do
a specific job say a lathe and tooling. This does not mean that you will get
lathe work. Get the work and all of the rest will fall in place as you go. Its
not quite the field of dreams "if you open it they may not come" Sad but true.
Some of the most successfull shop I know were started by salesmen. They had the
contacts for what they needed to sell. Its the secret..
Good Luck
Tom
Gunner
>Production? General repair ? Specialized repair (Farm, Marine)? Custom
>one-off ?
>There's machine shops and machine shops... In any business, the clearer
>you are about what you want to do, the better your chances for success.
>
>Of course, sometimes a market appears that is not the one you thought
>you had and the tail ends up walking the dog, if your eyes are open and
>you can take advantage when opportunity presents itself.
>
>Good luck
Excellent point! I dont know how many of my customers started off doing one type of part/industry,
but wound up making completly different stuff, in totally differnt ways... quite sucessfuly btw.
Gunner
---------------------------------------------------------
"A human being should be able to change a diaper, plan an
invasion, butcher a hog, conn a ship, design a building, write
a sonnet, balance accounts, build a wall, set a bone, comfort
the dying, take orders, give orders, cooperate, act alone,
solve equations, analyze a new problem, pitch manure, program
a computer, cook a tasty meal, fight efficiently, die
gallantly. Specialization is for insects." Robert Heinlein
Ben Shank
But I have spend much time over the last few years, trying to figure out how
I might do it tho. From my research, many hours talking to people, I have
come to the conclusion unless you are VERY WELL CAPITALIZED they best way to
approach this to first decide what you enjoy doing first, production,
repair, one offs, etc. Then start figuring out what you need to accomplish
this in the way of basic equipment, the start aquiring your machines. Then
start doing some work on the side, keeping your day job, this way you can
find out if you like doing this type of work, if you make mistakes on
pricing write it off as experience, then as the grows or you decide this
isn't for you, you can make adjustments acordingly. This will call for long
nites and weekends, not doing some things you would like to do, but once you
have established yourself you make the move to a full time business.
Remember there are some other little things that go with running a business,
taxes, insurance( health, liability, building, equipment, etc), utilites,
etc.
Ben
Mark W.
Ben Shank wrote in message ...
>Remember there are some other little things that go with running a
business,
>taxes, insurance( health, liability, building, equipment, etc), utilites,
>etc.
>
>Ben
>
Things that cost money... yeah.....
payroll
osha
epa
local taxes
fire inspection/regulation
hazmat regulation
hazmat registration
accounting fees
internet costs
cell phones
regular phones
phone advertising
customers who aren't
deadbeats
timewasters
"inventors"
salesmen
bookkeeping
building maintenance
equipment repairs
equipment replacement
and on... and on.... and on...
Spehro Pefhany
> Of course, sometimes a market appears that is not the one you thought
> you had and the tail ends up walking the dog, if your eyes are open and
> you can take advantage when opportunity presents itself.
> Good luck
Yes, the first year+ in operation is often best described as "Market
research". Keep enough capital and capacity around to be responsive,
maybe even opportunistic. It's chicken and egg, you won't see the
opportunities to do 'B' until you try to do 'A'.
Best regards,
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany --"it's the network..." "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com Info for manufacturers: http://www.trexon.com
Embedded software/hardware/analog Info for designers: http://www.speff.com
Contributions invited->The AVR-gcc FAQ is at: http://www.BlueCollarLinux.com
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Dan Caster
machine shop. He had it in his mind that he needed $100,000 in
equipment per employee to open a shop. Would some of you machine
shop owners like to comment on this idea? I would think that you
could do it with less, but on the other hand I can also see where one
employee might be able to keep several expensive CNC machines runing.
So what do people think would be the ideal amount of equipment per
employee? Keep in mind that the money you have in equipment could be
invested easily at 6 to 7 % interest, and equipment does depreciate.
So $100,000 in equipment is costing you at least $10,000 a year.
Dan
mull...@advinc.com
Dan Caster <dca...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> Quite a few years ago I had an acquaintance that wanted to open a
> machine shop. He had it in his mind that he needed $100,000 in
> equipment per employee to open a shop.
Hmm. Actually at the shop I work at at night, this number is
about right. This is for an established shop, with a built-up
customer base.
For a startup I could imagine doing it for somewhat less, and grow
into the work.
Jim
Robert Bastow
teenut
oddjo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> I'm thinking about opening a machine shop. What
> do companies look for in a machine shop? Would
> they look at experience? Should I go to nearby
> companies advertising my service? If so, who
> should I talk to?
>
> Jody
>
PLAlbrecht
>
>payroll
>osha
>epa
>local taxes
>fire inspection/regulation
>hazmat regulation
>hazmat registration
>accounting fees
>internet costs
>cell phones
>regular phones
>phone advertising
>customers who aren't
>deadbeats
>timewasters
>"inventors"
>salesmen
>bookkeeping
>building maintenance
>equipment repairs
>equipment replacement
>and on... and on.... and on...
He can avoid at least a few of these by pitching his tent in Bulgaria. See
related thread elsewhere. It's a sure-fire way to get Gary Coffman as a
customer. <g>
Pete
Mickey
I have been involved in quite a diversity of business ventures over the
years, and I counld't help but notice that not matter how good a
machinist (software developer, hand weaver, painter, underwater welder,
engineer, musicical instrument repair man, baker, chef, etc, etc...) you
may be, you also need to be, or to hire, or to partner with, an
accountant, a bookkeeper, a salesperson, a marketing person, etc, etc.
Even if you can do all these things yourself, you don't want to, aren't
interested in all of them, and don't have the time. There is a lot more
to any successful business than one person who is good at some
particular thing.
Jack Fisher
Ben Shank
begining, but he should start the business as a busines from the begining,
even working part time. It would be a smart move to go over his business
plans with a lawyer to discuss his exposures and how to setup the business
from this standpoint and to work with a CPA to setup the financial end of it
to stay out of trouble with taxes. These in a small start up business are
not expensive, but can save much expense in the future. Starting out with
the right habits on the business end can save much frustration in the
future.
Jim Harvey
your head really hard. Open a Machine shop??? Are you SURE you want to screw
up your life that way?
IF you can't be dissuaded, then you need to do some investigation in your
area to see what is working and what isn't. If you have a lot of industry,
you will probably get some work from that area. If you are in a more
residential area, you will need to network with auto repair shops and parts
houses to try to siphon off that kind of work ( which can be fairly
lucrative). Unless you're making something that is so specialized, whit a
tremendous profit margin built in , you can expect to make a fair living,
but not a great one by today's standards.
You also need to be prepared to float your business for at least 2 years
before you see any profit at all. That means, you're not going to take a
paycheck out of the place for at least that long.
The secret is to do everything and contact everyone who might have a need
for a machinist or machine work. The path you'll take will shake itself out
on its own.
Jim Harvey
<oddjo...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8fk321$4oj$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Dan Caster
"Jim Harvey" <jhar...@optonline.net> wrote:
> First thing you should do is go get a CAT scan to make sure you haven't hit
> your head really hard. Open a Machine shop??? Are you SURE you want to screw
> up your life that way?
A guy that I know that has a machine shop was asked what he would do
if he won the lotto. His reply was that he would keep running his
shop until the money ran out. Two person shop with about forty
something machines in a old building on prime waterfront property.
You can barely move from one end of the shop to the other because of
all the machines.
Dan
James Estes
when you go into business, and that is " customers!" everything else can be
obtained at a later time. if your customers are willing to give your
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of business then you can afford
hundreds of thousands of dollars worth of equipment. but if they are not,
then you had better try and get by with what you need rather than what you
want.
"Mickey" <mickey...@home.com> wrote in message
news:391E3CF3...@home.com...
> Another point ....
>
> I have been involved in quite a diversity of business ventures over the
> years, and I counld't help but notice that not matter how good a
> machinist (software developer, hand weaver, painter, underwater welder,
> engineer, musicical instrument repair man, baker, chef, etc, etc...) you
> may be, you also need to be, or to hire, or to partner with, an
> accountant, a bookkeeper, a salesperson, a marketing person, etc, etc.
> Even if you can do all these things yourself, you don't want to, aren't
> interested in all of them, and don't have the time. There is a lot more
> to any successful business than one person who is good at some
> particular thing.
>
> oddjo...@my-deja.com wrote:
>
> > do companies look for in a machine shop? Would
> > they look at experience? Should I go to nearby
> > companies advertising my service? If so, who
> > should I talk to?
> >
> > Jody
> >
Jack Erbes
>
> I'm thinking about opening a machine shop. What
> do companies look for in a machine shop? Would
> they look at experience? Should I go to nearby
> companies advertising my service? If so, who
> should I talk to?
>
A local machine shop owner recently won about $3.6 Million in the state
lottery. The local television station sent a crew went out to get a
report on this heart-warming human interest story for the evening news.
The talking head asked the inevitable question, "What are you going to
do now that you have all this money?" The man thought about it for
about five seconds, and wearily replied "Well, I guess I'll just keep on
running my machine shop. As long as the money holds out."
--
Jack in Sonoma, CA, USA (ja...@vom.com)
Miles
> "Those whom the Gods wish to Destroy..They first make open Machine
Shops!"
>
No sane man wants his offspring to follow in his footsteps ...
--
wherever you go - there you are
Robert Bastow
Having recently opened my fourth Machine Shop, I have been thinking long and
hard about how to answer this question, in a meaningful and useful way...without
running to about two hundred pages of closely type text!!
The first thing to understand about opening a machine shop, or any other type of
business, is that 96% of ALL new businesses fail!!! At the end of ten years, out
of every 100 new openings, 96 have failed, three are struggling and only one can
be deemed to be "A Success"
It is important therefore to understand WHY this is so if you are to have any
chance whatsoever of survival.
My first advice is therefore, to go out and buy a book called "The E-Myth
Revisited" by Michael E Gerber..available from any bookstore...ISBN
0-88730-728-0. My last copy cost $15.00 (I say "last copy" because I have
bought several copies in my time and keep giving them away to friends who
express the desire to open businesses!!)
Next you have to ask yourself (and honestly answer) the question " Why do I want
to open my own business?"
So you can be your own boss?...You will find you have more "Bosses" as a small
business owner than ever before!!
It has often been said.."Having your own business means working 80 hours a week
for yourself..so you don't have to work 40 hours a week for someone else" That
can be a very true statement.
To me, the objective of a business is, as quickly as possible, to reach a stage
where it produces an ongoing stream of income, more than sufficient to meet your
needs..WHETHER YOU ARE THERE OR NOT!!!!!!
(My latest new venture has achieved that position in less than three months!!)
Anything else is not a business..it just means YOU OWN YOUR OWN JOB!!!!!
To achieve this, you will need to reduce the details of how to run your business
to a "SYSTEM" You (or someone else) runs the "SYSTEM" and the "SYSTEM" runs the
business. It is for this ONE SINGLE REASON that business people are so willing
to buy a franchise type operation...Franchise businesses have the exact reverse
track record in new start-ups...96% succeed and less than 4% fail. What you
primarily pay for in a franchise is a Guaranteed, Turn-Key System. You run the
system, the system runs the business and the business makes money. It really is
as simple as that.
If you can't buy a working system then YOU have to develop it..Gerber's book
will hammer this concept home and teach you how to do it for yourself. What
Gerber's book will teach you, is how to work ON your business..rather than IN
it.
Now! Having said all that, you need to understand that you will need enough
working capital, not just to buy or lease the space and equipment to start up
with..but to be able to cover your operating costs, fixed and variable, for up
to TWO YEARS, including YOUR living expenses, without counting on taking a dime
of income out of the business.
What do machine shop customers look for?
If you have to ask that question you are in Deep DooDoo before you start. Yes I
could tell you..but it would take the afforsaid megapages to do it. Yes I could
teach you and I will make you the following offer..
Assuming you are a pretty damned good Machinist or Tool and Die Maker..Come to
Atlanta and work for me for THREE MONTHS..I will pay you 2/3 of what I regularly
pay my top people ($23 to $30.00 per hour) and I will undertake to teach you the
BUSINESS from top to bottom!! That is about as close to "Turnkey" as you will
get in this business.
teenut
Jim Harvey
shop too cluttered"
Think I'm kidding? :^)
Jim Harvey
"Dan Caster" <dca...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8fmqkd$tip$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Craig C.
>Assuming you are a pretty damned good Machinist or Tool and Die Maker..Come to
>Atlanta and work for me for THREE MONTHS..I will pay you 2/3 of what I regularly
>pay my top people ($23 to $30.00 per hour) and I will undertake to teach you the
>BUSINESS from top to bottom!! That is about as close to "Turnkey" as you will
>get in this business.
>
>teenut
Heck...If I could afford to, I'd come out and do it without pay just
for the additional knowledge. I do fine on the mill and lathe. Where
I'm stuggling is trying to decipher all the information from my die
making books. There is a lot of science to it, but there is also a
considerable amount of personal majic to it.
Craig C.
EjayHire
if it's a one man shop. Don't make anybody mad and the EPA
won't hear about you, and you'll need the services of an
accountant 4 times a year to keep the IRS happy. Talk to auto
shops, school machine shop teachers, leave posters at the farm
co-op, tell them y ou specialize on one-offs and gizmos. It
works pretty well if you have something you can show off like a
stirling engine or something like that...
Also, You 'll want to put a counter in your shop, or somebody
will walk right up to you, and usually into the path of some
flying metal object, or into the fast-return backstroke of the
shaper <clunk>.
You're going to get a high signal-to-noise ratio. For every ten
people that say how much would it cost to make this, one will be
able to answer all the questions you need to ask to make a
reasonable estimate. Don't work for free.
.. It's easier to toss newspapers.
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Peter Drumm
Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>Mon, 15 May 2000 03:28:23 GMT writes:
:->
:->Now! Having said all that, you need to understand that you will need enough
:->working capital, not just to buy or lease the space and equipment to start up
:->with..but to be able to cover your operating costs, fixed and variable, for up
:->to TWO YEARS, including YOUR living expenses, without counting on taking a dime
:->of income out of the business.
:->
I've been told 3 years minimum, and I believe it. When Mark took over
the shop(which had been in business for 20+ years already) he didn't
make a dime for the first 5 years, they lived off his wife's income.
He's been there 20 years now, and makes a good buck, but he also
spends 80 hours or more working every week.
Custom machining; Tool & Cutter grinding, prices at
<http://home.dwave.net/~pdrumm/price.html>
Peter Drumm, Wausau WI
<pdr...@dwave.net>,<http://home.dwave.net/~pdrumm>
Dual Celeron 466's, Abit BP6, Matrox AGP, OS/2 Warp 4, Linux, BeOS
John (EBo) David
>
> oddjo...@my-deja.com wrote:
> >
> > I'm thinking about opening a machine shop.
>
>
> What do machine shop customers look for?
>
> If you have to ask that question you are in Deep DooDoo before you start. Yes I
> could tell you..but it would take the afforsaid megapages to do it. Yes I could
> teach you and I will make you the following offer..
>
> Atlanta and work for me for THREE MONTHS..I will pay you 2/3 of what I regularly
> pay my top people ($23 to $30.00 per hour) and I will undertake to teach you the
> BUSINESS from top to bottom!! That is about as close to "Turnkey" as you will
> get in this business.
Dude...
Take Teenut up on his offer. That is some of the best advice I've run
across both on and off the net for some time. Those three months are
worth more to you and your business plans than taking classes for an
MBA! I also expect that he'll keep you busy learning things that you
never thought would make a difference - from tax law to calculating the
hidden job costs down to a nat's patutie... Hell, if I had not just
returned to grad school I might have asked him if I could come learn,
and I really don't want to open a machine shop either. I have however
been doing contract programming for a while and would benefit IMHO from
such instruction myself. Much, if not most, of the business end is
transferable...
EBo --
Ian W. Douglas
On Mon, 15 May 2000, Robert Bastow wrote:
>
> To achieve this, you will need to reduce the details of how to run your business
> to a "SYSTEM" You (or someone else) runs the "SYSTEM" and the "SYSTEM" runs the
> business. It is for this ONE SINGLE REASON that business people are so willing
> to buy a franchise type operation...Franchise businesses have the exact reverse
> track record in new start-ups...96% succeed and less than 4% fail. What you
> primarily pay for in a franchise is a Guaranteed, Turn-Key System. You run the
> system, the system runs the business and the business makes money. It really is
> as simple as that.
>
I can see it now:
- Machine shops with golden arches in front of them
- Signs that say, "Over 26 billion set up and milled"
- Coupons for a free McTurning Job with every 20 holes drilled
- Ronald McLathe Operator commercials
The possibilities are endless.
Ben Shank
I wouldn't know what to do with that much extra
space!!!!!!...............on second thought....YES I WOULD....fill it up
with more toys!!!!!!!
Ben
Robert Bastow
Peter Drumm wrote:
>
> In message <r9KT4.3199$t4.3...@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com> - Robert
> Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com>Mon, 15 May 2000 03:28:23 GMT writes:
> :->
> :->Now! Having said all that, you need to understand that you will need enough
> :->working capital, not just to buy or lease the space and equipment to start up
> :->with..but to be able to cover your operating costs, fixed and variable, for up
> :->to TWO YEARS, including YOUR living expenses, without counting on taking a dime
> :->of income out of the business.
> :->
>
> I've been told 3 years minimum, and I believe it. When Mark took over
> the shop(which had been in business for 20+ years already) he didn't
> make a dime for the first 5 years, they lived off his wife's income.
> He's been there 20 years now, and makes a good buck, but he also
> spends 80 hours or more working every week.
>
Then..As I stated..He doesn't own a "Business" he owns his own "Job"!!
teenut
Robert Bastow
Yes they are...if you are not too dumb to see it!!
No-one (Yet) has ever turnkeyed and franchised a succesful machine shop!
Go read "Grinding it out" by Ray Krok..the guy who showed everyone the way with
MacDonalds.
Then go look around at all the successful franchises and turnkeyed business that
soak up your hard earned dollars every day From Wendies to Minuteman Press, to
hotel chains to hardware stores To Mailboxes Etc...etcetera, etcetera,!
Go learn something about how BUSINESS really works and then come back and I'll
discuss Macdonalds and Turnkeying with you!
Sorry to be snippy..but don't bring a knfe to a gun fight!
teenut
mull...@advinc.com
Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> wrote:
> Sorry to be snippy..but don't bring a knfe to a gun fight!
I think he was being humourous there. You missed the [implied]
smiley!
And you didn't seem snippy. The discussion is quite interesting
to me, because my wife's law practice eventually closed down after
many years simply because she could not wear 'all the hats' at once.
Office manager
Book keeper
Debt collector
Errand runner
Tax expert
Deadbeat detector
She is a great lawyer, but the strain of running a one-woman band
was just too much. As has been said here, running a business is
a *lot* more than must knowing the area of specialization. The
irony of her situation was that she did all of the ancillary functions
as a legal secretary while she put herself thru college. And did
a damn good job of it too.
I would dearly love to open a shop, but the standard line I have heard
is that one has to realize that, as an employee, your employer is
_making_money_ off of you. He pays you 20 or 30 dollars an hour
for your work. But he bills the customer a hundred or more per
hour for your labor.
So when thinking of going it on your own, you have to realize that
the *starting* point for revenue has to be the _larger_ number.
Starting point. (don't forget that profit)
I seem to recall that you yourself made this point originally, Robert,
but felt it was worthy of mentioning again.
Jim
Edward Haas
: The other option is to do it on the side. Osha leaves you alone
: if it's a one man shop. Don't make anybody mad and the EPA
: won't hear about you, and you'll need the services of an
: accountant 4 times a year to keep the IRS happy. Talk to auto
--Regardless of what you are doing at home these days work-wise
many municipalities now require you to get something called a "Home
Occupation Permit". This things are drafted by some of the most loathsome
creatures that crawl on the planet and you should read the fine print B4
signing one. F'rinstance the county retains the right to enter your
premises at *any* time, unannounced, to inspect the shop and the work
being performed there. You have to provide off-street parking for x number
of cars. You have to have a loading dock for deliveries, etc etc... IMO
it's better to ...um, side-step this little beauty...
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another fart in
Watch link rot in action! : the Elevator of Life...
http://www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Spehro Pefhany
> signing one. F'rinstance the county retains the right to enter your
> premises at *any* time, unannounced, to inspect the shop and the work
> being performed there.
This is generally true of *all* businesses, various inspectors (especially
fire inspectors who have far-reaching powers) can enter at any time.
The fire department was doing a house-to-house tour here a couple of years
ago, they said you could invite them in and they would inspect what was
wrong, but if they found anything you would be *compelled* to fix it
promptly. Some people were taking them up on the offer, but then this is
Canada.
Tim Shoppa
>
> The other option is to do it on the side. Osha leaves you alone
> if it's a one man shop. Don't make anybody mad and the EPA
> won't hear about you, and you'll need the services of an
> accountant 4 times a year to keep the IRS happy.
> Talk to auto
> co-op, tell them y ou specialize on one-offs and gizmos.
Companies that you contract for
may have additional requirements. It's not uncommon for a
company to require all their contractors have vehicle, liability,
and workman's compensation insurance, often in very large amounts
(multi-million for vehicle insurance is common and I've seen liability
requirements up to 100 million.)
Obviously these insurance requirements are aimed at construction
contractors, for the most part, but as a consulting software
engineer I've had companies tell me that the same requirements
apply to me if I'm going to do work through them. Needless to
say, those companies never finished those jobs...
Tim.