Has anyone worked with bridgeport Interact CNC mills?
Ignoramus22050
retrofitted one with a new control.
i
Karl Townsend
> Would love to just chat a bit, especially interesting would be if you
> retrofitted one with a new control.
I'm currently consulting with a fella to refit one to Camsoft. Strictly a
consult by phone and email job for me.
Karl
Ignoramus29334
So, what is that guy replacing? Just the controls? Or servoamps too?
thanks Karl
i
Karl Townsend
He sold the old amps. Then used the money to buy AMC servo amps off ebay.
They are top of the line and sell for peanuts. They need 0 - 10 volt from
computer, nothing else. Encoder goes to control and control software does
everything. I think EMC works the same.
Karl
Ignoramus29334
Karl, do you know why he sold the old amps?
i
Karl Townsend
"Ignoramus29334" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.29334.invalid> wrote in message
news:kMKdnf3BM_xrCQfW...@giganews.com...
I think he likes money. AMC work better and cost less. Plus, myself and
others have no interest in supporting every damn flavor of servo amp. Just
try to buy a replacement amp for your machine. I've got a dozen spare AMCs
on the self right now and can swap one in less than five minutes if a
problem is suspected.
Karl
Ignoramus29334
>
> "Ignoramus29334" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.29334.invalid> wrote in message
> news:kMKdnf3BM_xrCQfW...@giganews.com...
>> On 2010-03-12, Karl Townsend <karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>>>> So, what is that guy replacing? Just the controls? Or servoamps too?
>>>
>>> He sold the old amps. Then used the money to buy AMC servo amps off ebay.
>>> They are top of the line and sell for peanuts. They need 0 - 10 volt from
>>> computer, nothing else. Encoder goes to control and control software does
>>> everything. I think EMC works the same.
>>
>> Karl, do you know why he sold the old amps?
>
> others have no interest in supporting every damn flavor of servo amp. Just
> try to buy a replacement amp for your machine. I've got a dozen spare AMCs
> on the self right now and can swap one in less than five minutes if a
> problem is suspected.
>
That's cool, great to know. If I can get modern servoamps that would
be more compatible, and recoup their costs, I will do so as well. If I
do that, I just might free up enough space inside the control box to
stick the PC right in there.
i
Karl Townsend
"Ignoramus29334" <ignoram...@NOSPAM.29334.invalid> wrote in message
I think you got brush servos, verify this. Here's one offer:
http://cgi.ebay.com/Advanced-Motion-Controls-Brush-Type-PWM-Servo-Amplifier_W0QQitemZ140383652570QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item20af848ada
You need three. I'd get a spare.
Karl
Ignoramus4212
Thanks Karl, I will verify this very soon.
I now agree with you in that the more electronics I will replace, the
better off I will be.
i
Ned Simmons
A couple things that may open up your options.
Copley Controls makes amps that are very similar to AMC's. I've used
both and personally prefer Copley, but most of my experience is a few
years old and the differences are pretty insignificant.
Also, some of the more recent generation amps are compatible with both
brush and brushless motors.
--
Ned Simmons
Karl Townsend
> Also, some of the more recent generation amps are compatible with both
> brush and brushless motors.
How familiar are you with this. I'm sniping a couple auctions where the
description is brushless servo. The check sheet says the servo amp does both
http://www.a-m-c.com/content/prods/descriptions/drives/analog_input.html
Then I go to the individual drive manual and see nothing about brush servo
connection. Brushlees servos have three hot wires, do you just use two of
the three on a brush type? There must be more, brushless is totally
different electical output.
Karl
Ned Simmons
I haven't used a brush motor in a very long time, and don't remember
setting up a brushless amp to run a brush motor. I've just noticed the
brush/brushless feature showing up in the specs. I couldn't find the
setup in the manual, either, but I did find this on AMC's FAQ page...
http://www.a-m-c.com/content/support/FAQ.html#setup07
Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that older AMC and
Copley brushless amps will also drive brush motors. Perhaps, because
of declining deamand, it's simply no longer economical for them to
produce amps specifically for brush motors.
--
Ned Simmons
Karl Townsend
...
>>Then I go to the individual drive manual and see nothing about brush servo
>>connection. Brushlees servos have three hot wires, do you just use two of
>>the three on a brush type? There must be more, brushless is totally
>>different electical output.
>
> I haven't used a brush motor in a very long time, and don't remember
> setting up a brushless amp to run a brush motor. I've just noticed the
> brush/brushless feature showing up in the specs. I couldn't find the
> setup in the manual, either, but I did find this on AMC's FAQ page...
> http://www.a-m-c.com/content/support/FAQ.html#setup07
>
> Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that older AMC and
> Copley brushless amps will also drive brush motors. Perhaps, because
> of declining deamand, it's simply no longer economical for them to
> produce amps specifically for brush motors.
>
> --
> Ned Simmons
Thanks for the excellent advice. Now I can buy up brushless drives and be
able to use them both ways. Just an FYI, I keep enough spare parts on hand
to make about three machines like Iggy's into a Galil/Camsoft machine. Right
now, I'm looking for drives to do my Matsuura bedmill. its a twin spindle
machine that weighs about 16,000 lbs. - just the thing for light home hobby
use.
Karl
Ignoramus4212
>>>Then I go to the individual drive manual and see nothing about brush servo
>>>connection. Brushlees servos have three hot wires, do you just use two of
>>>the three on a brush type? There must be more, brushless is totally
>>>different electical output.
>>
>> I haven't used a brush motor in a very long time, and don't remember
>> setting up a brushless amp to run a brush motor. I've just noticed the
>> brush/brushless feature showing up in the specs. I couldn't find the
>> setup in the manual, either, but I did find this on AMC's FAQ page...
>> http://www.a-m-c.com/content/support/FAQ.html#setup07
>>
>> Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that older AMC and
>> Copley brushless amps will also drive brush motors. Perhaps, because
>> of declining deamand, it's simply no longer economical for them to
>> produce amps specifically for brush motors.
>>
>
> able to use them both ways. Just an FYI, I keep enough spare parts on hand
> to make about three machines like Iggy's into a Galil/Camsoft machine. Right
> now, I'm looking for drives to do my Matsuura bedmill. its a twin spindle
> machine that weighs about 16,000 lbs. - just the thing for light home hobby
> use.
Karl, so, in a retrofit like that, what would you use?
i
Karl Townsend
"Ignoramus4212" <ignora...@NOSPAM.4212.invalid> wrote in message
news:v4adnSzW8uPR2gHW...@giganews.com...
I'm looking for servo drives that run at 340 VDC with a 20 amp continous
rating to do the axis. The spindle is a real problem, I may have to mount a
10 hp 3 phase and VFD as finding a servo drive at a reasonable price is
unlikely. From there on all CNC controls are about the same. I use a Galil
card for motion control and like the Nudaq I/O cards going to Opto22 boards
for isolated I/O. A PC with Camsoft runs the whole thing.
Karl
John
I highly doubt that you can run a brush type motor with a brushless
servo. The power output of the brushless servo is completely different
configuration than a brush type servo.
The motors on the bridgeport tmc151 are brush type servos. I have
maintained several systems for customers and the controls as well as the
whole systems were comparatively free of problems. The biggest problem
was that the customer let the memory battery go dead and in turn it
would lose the parameters which would then have to be reloaded into the
memory after the battery was replaced. The big problem with the tmc151
is that you are limited to a three axis machine. With a new pc based
control you could add other axes including a two axis rotary table which
would really be interesting to program.
It is important to match the power of the drives to the application. If
anything you want the drives to have a little extra torque or HP so that
the acceleration/deceleration of the machine parts are reasonably fast,
otherwise you will have to slow everything down to keep the commanded
position from the PC close to the actual position of the cutting tool.
Encoder feedback to the servo will give you the best control of the
tool position. On a brushless servo the encoder has to be set to the
shaft position of the motor or it will not run properly.
John
Ned Simmons
<karltown...@embarqmail.com> wrote:
>
>...
>>>Then I go to the individual drive manual and see nothing about brush servo
>>>connection. Brushlees servos have three hot wires, do you just use two of
>>>the three on a brush type? There must be more, brushless is totally
>>>different electical output.
>>
>> I haven't used a brush motor in a very long time, and don't remember
>> setting up a brushless amp to run a brush motor. I've just noticed the
>> brush/brushless feature showing up in the specs. I couldn't find the
>> setup in the manual, either, but I did find this on AMC's FAQ page...
>> http://www.a-m-c.com/content/support/FAQ.html#setup07
>>
>> Based on that, I wouldn't be surprised to learn that older AMC and
>> Copley brushless amps will also drive brush motors. Perhaps, because
>> of declining deamand, it's simply no longer economical for them to
>> produce amps specifically for brush motors.
>>
>> --
>> Ned Simmons
>
>Thanks for the excellent advice. Now I can buy up brushless drives and be
>able to use them both ways.
I'd check whether this is in fact true for the older drives before
buying too many. I did check, and the model numbers for some of the
current drives, that are capable of both modes, are the same as those
in a 1985 AMC catalog I had in my files. But it's possible there have
been revs to the drives that enable both modes of operation, even
though the model numbers have not changed.
I thought I had an older AMC brushless amp around that I could test,
but I couldn't find it in the obvious places.
--
Ned Simmons
Ned Simmons
wrote:
It's not intuitive to me either, but AMC advertises that fact, and the
link above tells how to configure their brushless amps for brush
operation.
> On a brushless servo the encoder has to be set to the
>shaft position of the motor or it will not run properly.
I assume you're talking about the commutation feedback here. Some
drives use the motor encoder to report rotor position to the amp, but
the standard, and far more common, scheme is 3 Hall sensors in the
motor supplying this information to the amp. The Hall sensors are
built into the motor and non-adjustable.
--
Ned Simmons
john
The ones that I installed all had an external encoder that had to be
timed to the rotor of the motor. The encoder was also used as feedback
for speed control. The brushless motors with the hall effect sensors
installed internally are definitely easier to set up but are less
versatile for certain applications. Most of the motors I see are AC
permanent magnet motors, mostly Fanuc. I use a some Toshiba spindle
motors and drives which work out fine. With a tool changer you have to
have spindle orientation which can get to be a problem with the wrong
drive.
I never did get into the difference between a brushless DC motor and an
AC permanent magnet motor, they seem to be basically the same.
Ned Simmons
wrote:
>
>The ones that I installed all had an external encoder that had to be
>timed to the rotor of the motor. The encoder was also used as feedback
>for speed control. The brushless motors with the hall effect sensors
>installed internally are definitely easier to set up but are less
>versatile for certain applications.
Easier if you have the data to get the phasing between the Halls and
the motor windings right. A pain in the butt if you have to do it by
trial and error. There are, I think, six possible Hall connections
once the winding connections are made, a couple of which may appear to
run the motor, but aren't correct. I've used drives with resolver
feedback that do a little dance to determine the resolver to winding
orientation. I've also installed some very sexy Control Techniques
drives that I believe do something similar if you're using encoder
feedback.
>Most of the motors I see are AC
>permanent magnet motors, mostly Fanuc. I use a some Toshiba spindle
>motors and drives which work out fine. With a tool changer you have to
>have spindle orientation which can get to be a problem with the wrong
>drive.
>I never did get into the difference between a brushless DC motor and an
>AC permanent magnet motor, they seem to be basically the same.
>
You're right, there's no difference. AC permanent magnet is more
descriptive. The motors are essentially 3-phase permanent magnet
synchronous motors with rotor position sensing added for the
electronic commutation.
--
Ned Simmons
Jon Elson
> Copley Controls makes amps that are very similar to AMC's.
Not "similar". The model numbers are different, but if you look at
their web sites, it is obvious that a number of their models are the
exact same unit with a different label. Copley has the 412 series of
velocity servo amps, with tachometer input. I don't recall the AMC number.
Jon
Jon Elson
provided by the Hall sensors on a brushless motor. This sets it to
drive two of the 3 phase outputs and leave the 3rd one off. There
should be a section in the manual for "operation of brush motors".
Of course this puts all the load on 4 of the 6 power transistors in the
servo amp.
Jon
Jon Elson
> I highly doubt that you can run a brush type motor with a brushless
> servo. The power output of the brushless servo is completely different
> configuration than a brush type servo.
>
Any "six step" drive that takes a Hall sensor signal from the motor can
be set to run brush motors. Drives that run in sinusoidal commutation
are another story, and you are generally right about them. If it has no
input for "Hall" or "commutation" signals, then it probably cannot do
this.
Jon
Norman Yarvin
Ned Simmons <ne...@nedsim.com> wrote:
>On Sat, 13 Mar 2010 23:07:59 -0500, John <amd...@intergrafix.net>
>wrote:
>
>>I highly doubt that you can run a brush type motor with a brushless
>>servo. The power output of the brushless servo is completely different
>>configuration than a brush type servo.
>
>It's not intuitive to me either, but AMC advertises that fact, and the
>link above tells how to configure their brushless amps for brush
>operation.
Brush type motors are generally easier to drive, since the brushes do the
commutation. The amp just has to be configured to only drive one phase:
the one you've hooked the motor to. According to that link, AMC provides
a "phase setting switch" to do this. Amps without such a switch might
still be foolable into driving a brush type motor, by connecting
appropriately-chosen resistors to the hall sensor inputs. But that would
take some research into exactly what voltages the amp expects on those
inputs, and/or some trial and error; and it wouldn't work if the amp were
too clever about interpreting those inputs -- if, say, it detected the
lack of apparent motion, decided something was wrong, and shut down.
--
Norman Yarvin http://yarchive.net
Gunner Asch
I may have a few servo motors kicking around collecting dust. 300-500
inch-pounds, run at 90-150vts dc.
Some will have bad encoders of one sort or another.
Gunner
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