Pressed-together crankshafts

[bob prohaska]

Just how strong are built-up crankshafts? They're
common in very small engines, some of which seem
rather highly stressed. They seem less common in
larger engines, but those I'm familiar with are
high-production types where tooling costs matter
less than per-part costs.

For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
a built-up crank have a chance? At the other end
of the spectrum, are the cranks in very large marine
diesels (think Emma Maersk) built up or monolithic?

Thanks for reading,

bob prohaska

[John B.]

Isn't a Harley Davidson crankshaft "built up" and simply pressed
together?
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 10:16:32 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>
wrote:

Not sure about Harley but MANY Motorcycle cranks are and many 2
stroke cranks. They work pretty good in applications where there is
not much chance of impact / shock loads which have a tendancy to twist
built-up cranks out of true. They are also used in applications where
comnpactmess is required and there is no room for bolted split-cap
rods

[John B.]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 01:11:59 -0400, Clare Snyder <cl...@snyder.on.ca>

From memory I believe that some single row radial aircraft engines
also had built up cranks although I don't remember how they were
assembled.
--
Cheers,

John B.

[Jim Wilkins]

"John B." wrote in message
news:m86gdg5ui2j3eijjd...@4ax.com...

From memory I believe that some single row radial aircraft engines
also had built up cranks although I don't remember how they were
assembled.
--
Cheers,

John B.

----------------------------------

http://www.enginehistory.org/engines.shtml

Open "No Short Days"

[Leon Fisk]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 02:31:53 -0000 (UTC)

You can make one piece with big-ass power hammer and hot steel ;-)

https://youtu.be/8bT6txm4RpA?t=703

Cool old video, the whole thing is interesting if you haven't already
seen it...

--
Leon Fisk
Grand Rapids MI

[Jim Wilkins]

"bob prohaska" wrote in message news:sb8nuo$bq9$1...@dont-email.me...

---------------------------
https://www.dieselarmy.com/engine-tech/engine/dynamic-diesels-inside-the-worlds-largest-engine/

".. it exceeds 50% thermal efficiency in its maximum economy mode."

[Clare Snyder]

On Sun, 27 Jun 2021 13:24:05 +0700, John B. <sloc...@gmail.com>

Another application where there was no room for bolted split cap rods.

[Snag]

The newer Harley motors are using a pressed together crankshaft , the
older ones used a bolted assembly with tapered joints located with keys
. The newer ones have evidenced a tendency to twist at low RPM/heavy
throttle . I know my 1990 has a bolted crank assembly , not sure about
the 2009 Sporty but I think it was before the bean counters "improved
the profit margin" .
--
Snag
Race only matters to racists ...

[Jim Wilkins]

"bob prohaska" wrote in message news:sb8nuo$bq9$1...@dont-email.me...

For example, if somebody wanted to build a small,
one-off diesel engine, say a 200cc v-twin, would
a built-up crank have a chance?

-------------------------------

https://www.homemodelenginemachinist.com/threads/making-a-builtup-crankshaft.10838/

[bob prohaska]

Very impressive photos. Thanks for posting!

bob prohaska

[David Billington]

I couldn't find any information on whether the Wartsila engine was a
built up crank but the Doxford ship engine was, some info here
http://www.dieselduck.info/historical/01%20diesel%20engine/Doxford/works.htm
and repairing the damage due to not doing the correct engine starting
procedure resulting in slippage of the shrink fit crank
http://www.waghornswood.net.nz/Manuals_01_18/Interesting/The_realignment_afloat_of_a_ships_main_engine_crankshaft.pdf
. I mentioned that incident to a neighbour's friend who had worked for
BOC and he said he had been involved in a similar fix in the docks at
Bristol UK.

[bob prohaska]

David Billington <d...@invalid.com> wrote:
> On 01/07/2021 22:40, Jim Wilkins wrote:

>> "bob prohaska"? wrote in message news:sb8nuo$bq9$1...@dont-email.me...

Fascinating articles! Thanks for posting!

bob prohaska

[Jim Wilkins]

Yes, thanks, very interesting.

For a more technical view, this explains submarine Diesels to new recruits
fresh off the farm.
https://archive.hnsa.org/doc/fleetsub/diesel/index.htm

[Bob Engelhardt]

On 7/2/2021 6:04 PM, David Billington wrote:
...
> http://www.waghornswood.net.nz/Manuals_01_18/Interesting/The_realignment_afloat_of_a_ships_main_engine_crankshaft.pdf
...

Clever ... I wonder if this sort of repair had been used prior or if the
author was the first. If first, I have to admire his willingness to
jump in the deep end, so to speak.

I got a chuckle out his titles: "RJF Hudson PhD., BAppSc., DMS., CEng.,
Extra First Class M.O.T FIMarEST., FIMechE., MCMI."

[Jim Wilkins]

"Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message news:sbuvv...@news1.newsguy.com...

------
I suspect that every possible sort of failure had occurred soon after a
design was introduced. Prior to WW2 engineering was cut-and-try, strengthen
whatever broke.

https://www.enginehistory.org/members/articles/CrankDesignEvol.shtml
"Eventually, in the late 1930s, experimental stress analysis began to be
incorporated into the design process."

[Ed Huntress]

Hi folks! I haven't stopped in for years, but I was so pleased to see that the political stuff (which drove me out in disgust) seems to be just a whimper now. If I was still writing about metalworking, I'd get back into it. But I'm not, so I'm just saying "hello" and it's nice to see so many of you still around.

Bob, I don't know of any unsupercharged diesel engines -- running on diesel fuel -- smaller than about 300 cc or so per cylinder. I'm not a diesel guy and there may be some such engines, but that's what I've heard from diesel people. They've told me that smaller cylinders quench too much to burn diesel fuel without supercharging. Of course, you can "diesel" with ether and maybe some other fuels, but that's something to check out. Those model "diesel" engines that run on ether don't have injection, so purists don't consider them to be "diesels." Just "compression ignition."

As for built-up cranks, there were racing engines in the 1930s, and probably since, that had built-up cranks. SO I'd guess that they can handle the torsional load if you get the press-fit right.

Good to see ya'll, and without the vile political stuff!

--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

Ed,

Good to see you're still with us and posting, it has been getting quiet
on here as even the metal working related stuff is getting less often. I
hadn't noticed a reduction in political/gun/survivalist stuff as my
filters kept that under control. I had a Davies-Charlton UK made diesel
airplane model engine and took it back to Wichita and asked my chemistry
teacher where I could get some ether to make the fuel and she was rather
concerned about safety and not helpful, IIRC the fuel was ether, amyl
nitrate, and castor oil and easy to get in the UK as a pre-mixed fuel
but not common in the US in the early 1980s. IIRC a source for ether is
engine start spray and people do use it to repair capillary temperature
gauges.

[Ed Huntress]

Hiya Dave! I haven't tried to buy ether for decades. I kept a pint can of it in the trunk of my MG when I lived in Michigan, for starting on those 0-temp winter days ( and with a sad Lucas battery), which I guess was like keeping a few sticks of dynamite in the car. Oh well, it worked. and I'm still in one piece.

I see it's relatively quiet here, but the subjects are metalworking-related, like it was when I joined over 20 years ago. It's good to see.

--
Ed Huntress

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message
news:ffbab5f1-2afe-4225...@googlegroups.com...

----------------------------------

Amazon offers several brands of a 196CC Diesel:

https://www.amazon.com/Diesel-Cylinder-Cooling-Horizontal-3000RPM/dp/B0917PGV7W/ref=sr_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=small+diesel+engine&qid=1628643055&sr=8-3

[Spehro Pefhany]

Likewise.
--
Best regards,
Spehro Pefhany

[Gerry]

I managed to start my '50 Austin A40 by pouring a couple ounces of gas
down the carb below 20 deg, F. and use the crank below zero.
Lately I've resorted to ether instead of priming old B&S lawn mowers
with the prime passage molded into the carb.-air cleaner joint, that
plus a cordles drill adapter in place of the rewind starter kept the
"mechanical mutton" working.
This year, for my 82nd birthday, I got my first new lawn mower - self
propelled with electric starter. I had never paid over $15 for a mower
in my life, most of them dumpster diving finds.

[Ed Huntress]

Yes indeed. If you look closely, it looks like they're all the same motor, with different paint jobs.

--
Ed Huntress

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

news:3b15da1e-d6a3-4094...@googlegroups.com...

------------------------------------

A disgusted Chinese design engineer told me their government encourages such
unlicensed copying.

They don't necessarily disprove the 300CC statement, perhaps being able to
use cheap available fuel is more important than lost efficiency at their low
power level. Quench may be less of a problem in a hotter-running air cooled
engine.

[Joe Gwinn]

On Tue, 10 Aug 2021 15:36:54 -0700 (PDT), Ed Huntress
<edhun...@gmail.com> wrote:

One can still buy ether in the US, packaged as "starting fluid" in
auto parts stores.

>I see it's relatively quiet here, but the subjects are metalworking-related, like it was when I joined over 20 years ago. It's good to see.

Seems to come in sporadic waves these days. Gunner has not posted in
a long time.

Joe Gwinn

[Ed Huntress]

Aha! Yes, hotter running is an interesting point. I also noticed from the Amazon detail listing that compression ratio is 22:1, which is at the high end. I wonder what it's like using a recoil starter with a 22:1 compression ratio.

[Ed Huntress]

I haven't noticed the cross-posting that created the whole mess in the first place. Well, good luck. I used to really enjoy this NG. These interests are confined to a smaller group these days, but there is still a core of interest, I'm glad to see. Since I retired, I spend more time fishing and doing outdoors things. My lathe gets more service turning cork grips for my fly rods. d8-)

--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

I had a Yanmar L40 which is similar but upright and that is 20:1
compression ratio and was easy to start when the decompression lever on
the head was used, I knew one guy that was strong enough to start it
without its use. I suspect that amazon engine has one and if anything
like the Yanmar it's the lever with the  red knob to the right of the
cylinder head in the last image.

[Ed Huntress]

The thermodynamics of these things has always interested me, but the reality is that it's usually over my head. How a diesel can start cold, at low rpm, with a reduced compression ratio, boggles my understanding of what is going on.

--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

I think it was more to do with allowing the user to get the engine up to
speed with the recoil starter. The start procedure was to set speed
lever to run position, pull the engine over till it was on the
compression stroke, let the start lead back in, push the decompression
lever down, and pull hard to start. The decompression device reset
automatically after that first compression stroke by which time
hopefully you had imparted enough inertia to the flywheel that it would
go through the next compression stroke itself at full compression and
start. In the summer it would often start first time, in the winter it
could take a few more pulls to get it running, that was UK summer/winter
temperatures.

[Ed Huntress]

I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. But, hey, that's why I'm not an engineer. I have seen some other starting aids on larger diesels, like hot-tubes and even ether injection, but I have no experience with diesels and I don't know what constitutes contemporary and practical operating practices. Meantime, as much as I like small engines, I made a first leap this year and bought a battery-powered lawn mower, which I love (Ryobi 40V, 21"). Next, maybe an electric car. Just turn the switch, and hummm...
--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

A mate was giving me a tour of his narrowboat and I knew it was diesel
but was surprised to see spark plugs, apparently a semi-diesel which due
to the low compression ratio would be started on petrol and run until
warmed up where it would be switched to diesel fuel. IIRC a Kelvin diesel.

While not a diesel I have had a Cox 049 spontaneously start on me when
idly flipping it over, no glow plug power connected, and it got quickly
dropped onto the porch where it continued to run for a minute or 2
bouncing around as the prop kicked it about. It was only the bare engine
and prop, I had been holding the rear fuel tank until it started.

Re the new mower is it one you push, ride, or a robotic one you can just
sit back with a brew and watch it do its thing. I know someone with one
and she loves it and it'll go back and park itself and recharge as required.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

news:68c75f99-d676-4752...@googlegroups.com...

I'm still surprised that it worked, given all of the quenching going on with

a cold engine and a (relatively) slow speed. ...
--
Ed Huntress
-------------------------
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fire_piston

[Ed Huntress]

Ah, yes, I remember a small "start on petrol, run on diesel" engine from Italy many years ago. It was sold for general-purpose agricultural use and it was listed in the Sears farm catalog. This was back in the '60s. That was (maybe still is?) another of the schemes for starting small, or cold, diesels.

The new mower is a self-powered walk-behind. It has two 40V, 6Ah batteries. It takes a half-charge on one to mow my small front lawn, and a half-charge to mow my smallish back lawn. I switch between them to discharge each battery by half before re-charging. It's quiet, powerful, and hassle-free. I'm not ready for the robotic ones, but I can see their appeal.

--
Ed Huntress

[Ed Huntress]

Ah yes, the fire piston! I learned about them here on RCM many years ago. I made one out of stainless on my SB lathe, and it worked great. I'm sad to say it was lost somewhere. Mine had no gaskets; I lapped the piston for a very close fit. I used rubbed inner bark from a red cedar for tinder, but I had no pocket on the end of the piston. I don't think one was needed. It's pretty hard to get enough compression with your hand to crush the fuel. But you had to invert the cylinder and bang it hard to get the burning tinder out of it.

The kickback was pretty sharp when the fuel started to burn.

--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

I suppose with diesel engines small is relative but IIRC the engine is
like this Kelvin K2 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY65XOQa45s . The
narrowboat it's in is quite new but the engine is vintage, a big slow
running lump, The boat's listing gives the power at 18hp.

[Ed Huntress]

That engine reminds me of something that Vera Lynn used to sing: "There Will Always Be an England." It's just hard, sometimes, to keep it running. d8-)

Or, as I once said after a tough day working on my MG, "England, the country of many oil cans."

--
Ed Huntress

[David Billington]

The video comments indicated they may have had an issue in the injection
system from the way it wasn't starting well, the engine my mate has runs
beautifully the only issue last time I spoke to them was the starter
motor needed to be rebuilt/replaced so the husband had to hand start it.

[Ed Huntress]

I would think that it would help to have hands like a gorilla.

--
Ed Huntress

[Richard Smith]

Diesel starting - probably mentioned elsewhere - anyway...
You need to keep cranking a diesel engine until it starts.

Improvised and quick - v. cold day on-land - put a towrope to an
LPG-fueled forklift-truck, get it trucking along and drop the clutch
on your diesel vehicle so it keeps cranking the engine as it's towed
along until it starts...

Russian way as I have seen on Russian equipment - a small gasoline
(petrol) cranking-engine to keep cranking the diesel for however long
it takes until it starts.

Hand-start - decompression-valve which "drops" when the engine has
spun a turn / up to a speed.

Just some observations. Ask the experts for details.

[Ed Huntress]

Richard, as I read this thread, I'm reminded that I may be lucky that I've never had to start a diesel engine. d8-)

(Well, I started a diesel VW Rabbit once. I don't remember much but that it was as easy as starting an IC engine.)

--
Ed Huntress

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

news:64d77e15-ed07-4d4c...@googlegroups.com...

That engine reminds me of something that Vera Lynn used to sing: "There Will
Always Be an England." It's just hard, sometimes, to keep it running. d8-)

Or, as I once said after a tough day working on my MG, "England, the country
of many oil cans."

--
Ed Huntress

---------------------------------

I just read that the Japanese were amazed that the Packard Merlin in a
captured P-51 didn't leak oil.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lya6lnp...@void.com...

-------------------------

Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to pour
gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open the cowl
and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if they used both
at the same time.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Ed Huntress" wrote in message

news:32ead5f3-36fd-436b...@googlegroups.com...

Richard, as I read this thread, I'm reminded that I may be lucky that I've
never had to start a diesel engine. d8-)

(Well, I started a diesel VW Rabbit once. I don't remember much but that it
was as easy as starting an IC engine.)

--
Ed Huntress

----------------------

When I was in Germany in the Army the winters were mild by NH standards,
more like NJ (Forts Dix and Monmouth). Sleeping outdoors on the ground
wasn't too bad. However snowy mountainous regions could become Very Cold at
night, on guard duty.

Their cars are very well designed for local conditions, especially the
winding Black Forest and Bavarian back roads. I didn't realize until later
how much I would have liked owning a BMW 2002 instead of my Beetle.

[Clare Snyder]

On Wed, 11 Aug 2021 20:39:43 +0100, Richard Smith <nu...@void.com>
wrote:

Cat used to use a "pony engine" to start their big tractors (
actually even the little D2)

[Gerry]

IIRC the old Internatioal bulldozers used this system; while
Caterpillar used a "pup" motor on gasolene.

[Richard Smith]

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
> they used both at the same time.

Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?

Lighting a fire under the engine - better only on a mechanical
injector engine ? (not vulnerable to hot gases flowing over the
engine)
Not to be recommended in this time of engines festooned with
electronics and electrics boxes?

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybl61y...@richards-air-2.home...

-----------------------------------

AFAIK those deep-freeze weather fixes were for aircraft engines, I read of
them in a fighter pilot's memoirs. The BF-109 gasoline engine had mechanical
fuel injection.

[Jim Wilkins]

"Richard Smith" wrote in message news:lybl61y...@richards-air-2.home...

"Jim Wilkins" <murat...@gmail.com> writes:

>
> Another Russian trick which a prisoner shared with the Germans was to
> pour gas into the oil tank before shutting down. They would also open
> the cowl and light a small fire under the cold engine. I don't know if
> they used both at the same time.

Gasoline would stop the diesel oil freezing in extreme cold?

-----------------

In a dry-sump aero engine the oil resides in a separate tank instead of the
crankcase.

When Diesel cars such as the Rabbit appeared in the US in the 70's cold
northern areas had a problem with the wax component of the fuel condensing
into a mush that clogged the small lines and filters. The quick fix was to
dilute the fuel with gas or kerosine, until the refiners adjusted their
process to reduce the high-boiling distillates. Maybe that was why outdoor
trucks and locomotives idled all night?
https://www.truckinginfo.com/350359/keep-your-fuel-from-freezing-this-winter
-20C isn't uncommon at night here.

Our Army trucks had Multifuel engines that would run on either Diesel or
gasoline, without making any changes that I was told of. Mostly they used
gas, which was very cheap without the high German tax. Our monthly ration of
untaxed gas for personal vehicles was 200 liters except for small engined
cars that received 100l, in practice only VW Beetles. But at the end of the
month only Beetle owners had gas ration coupons left over.

Army life was practically pure communism in which they give you what you
need, by their definition, and work you according to your abilities, again
by their definition. Fortunately an army isn't required to be efficient or
productive, only destructive.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 13 Aug 2021 21:57:15 +0100, Richard Smith <nu...@void.com>
wrote:

Remember, he was talking about RUSSIAN equipment - generally rough
as a cob low tech stuff - but yes, gasomine in the lubricating oil
thins it when cold and boils out when the engine gets upto
temperature. Has also been done on old aircraft engines.

The fire under the oil pan trick has also been used quite a bit - A
guy I used to work with started his Corvair in cold weather by
sticking a steel fence post wrapped with burlap and chicken wire into
a barrel of used motor oiland kerosene, lighting it and shoving it
under the back of the car beforeg oing in for breakfast after doing
his morning farm chares. The engine was toasty warm and ready to go
when he was ready to leave for work. The back of the butter yellow
corvair looked like it belonged to a driveway sealing outfit - covered
in "tar"

[Richard Smith]

Vivid description - can see it in my mind's-eye.

[Ed Huntress]

Nice to see you guys, and I'm glad to see that the cross-posting trolls are at a low ebb. I hope it stays that way. Hasta la vista!

--
Ed Huntress

[Cydrome Leader]

Jim Wilkins <murat...@gmail.com> wrote:
> "Bob Engelhardt" wrote in message news:sbuvv...@news1.newsguy.com...
>
> On 7/2/2021 6:04 PM, David Billington wrote:
> ...
>> http://www.waghornswood.net.nz/Manuals_01_18/Interesting/The_realignment_afloat_of_a_ships_main_engine_crankshaft.pdf
> ...
>
> Clever ... I wonder if this sort of repair had been used prior or if the
> author was the first. If first, I have to admire his willingness to
> jump in the deep end, so to speak.
>
> I got a chuckle out his titles: "RJF Hudson PhD., BAppSc., DMS., CEng.,
> Extra First Class M.O.T FIMarEST., FIMechE., MCMI."
>
> ------
> I suspect that every possible sort of failure had occurred soon after a
> design was introduced. Prior to WW2 engineering was cut-and-try, strengthen
> whatever broke.
>
> https://www.enginehistory.org/members/articles/CrankDesignEvol.shtml
> "Eventually, in the late 1930s, experimental stress analysis began to be
> incorporated into the design process."

We've gone backwards these days with consumer products. The goal seems is
apparently weaken ever part until the product can just not fall apart
during shipping. If that doesn't do the trick, bad firmware or other
computer problems will do the trick.

I've been resurrecting a mid-late 1990s Amana washing machine. Most parts
are still available, and if you're sneaky you can use coin-op machine
maintenance kits which have most of the parts that can wear, at a much
lower price than the part numbers in the "correct" exploded diagram.

Imported trash from samsung and LG can't even be fixed under warranty. I
enjoy warning people to not buy imported appliances, and if they do, don't
worry about it, you'll get another chance in about 3 years.

[Clare Snyder]

The latest "american made" appliances are every bit as bad as the
imported stuff and will MOST likely have a non-american name on it -
like Bosch. Repairing them is just as hard since a lot of the parts
still come from away.
I tried to get a gear for a KitchenAid pedestal mixer a month or so
back, and they said the wait could be 4 or 5 months. Thankfully a
sib-assembly was available that contained the required part that I was
able to locate - their parts department didn't have a CLUE that the
assembly was available and that it contained the part I needed (and
took about 20 minutes or more off the repair time). I guess that is
why THAT part was still available - - -

[Jim Wilkins]

"Clare Snyder" wrote in message
news:g3h2jg9ot26due532...@4ax.com...

The latest "american made" appliances are every bit as bad as the
imported stuff and will MOST likely have a non-american name on it -
like Bosch. Repairing them is just as hard since a lot of the parts
still come from away.
I tried to get a gear for a KitchenAid pedestal mixer a month or so
back, and they said the wait could be 4 or 5 months. Thankfully a
sib-assembly was available that contained the required part that I was
able to locate - their parts department didn't have a CLUE that the
assembly was available and that it contained the part I needed (and
took about 20 minutes or more off the repair time). I guess that is
why THAT part was still available - - -

---------------------

There's useful equipment in my shop from the 50's










The 1850's.

[Cydrome Leader]

What's an example of a bosch badged appliance made by say whirlpool that
has impossible to get parts?

> I tried to get a gear for a KitchenAid pedestal mixer a month or so
> back, and they said the wait could be 4 or 5 months. Thankfully a
> sib-assembly was available that contained the required part that I was
> able to locate - their parts department didn't have a CLUE that the
> assembly was available and that it contained the part I needed (and
> took about 20 minutes or more off the repair time). I guess that is
> why THAT part was still available - - -

They had a parts department and you got the parts. Try that with a LG
anything. It's not super uncommon for an entire assembly to be cheaper or
more avialable than a single part in it. It's silly, but nothing too new.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 15 Oct 2021 18:41:18 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

Not what I said. Check where your Bosch dishwasher is made -- it aint
der fatherland!!!

[Cydrome Leader]

Pakistan? China? I'd never make the mistake of buying a bosch appliance.

[Clare Snyder]

On Fri, 5 Nov 2021 20:01:55 -0000 (UTC), Cydrome Leader

It's the only brand of dishwasher available in the USA that is BUILT
IN THE USA. (at least that was true a year and ahalf ago)