MD-80
Roger Duncan
under a Chinees Contract. They are checking to see if any couldbe
involved.
You to could be flying in a kit under construction.
Spehro Pefhany
> I just heard on TV that some parts for Douglas Aircraft were made
> under a Chinees Contract. They are checking to see if any couldbe
> involved.
Parts of 747's too, IIRC. This is an election year, isn't it? Why does
this sound like the first chapter of Tom Clancy novel?
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com
Fax:(905) 271-9838 (small micro system devt hw/sw + mfg)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
PLAlbrecht
under a Chinees Contract.
But they have ISO 9001 certification! <g>
Pete
foxeye
your replacement parts for front line fighters and other U.S.A.F.
aircraft.........hell, even the shit made in the USA don't work half
the time, so I guess third world is no worse. Example..Relay for the
fire control radar on F16 acft. costs over $125.00 each (about 1/2" x
1" x 1" size 24 volt) and 9 out of 10 fail in minutes after
energizing it. We routinely use 6 or 7 just to get one to work.....and
the engineers say they are working on it..yea, right........
PLAlbrecht
>under a Chinees Contract.
Here we go.
>>FAA administrator Jane Garvey on Sunday responded to a U.S. News and World
Report article that said Flight 261's horizontal stabilizer was made in China,
and that quoted a spokesman for the International Association of Machinists and
Aerospace Workers as saying FAA oversight of foreign parts manufacturers is
inadequate.
>>Garvey said on CNN that the international organization that oversees aviation
manufacturing ``has some very high standards.'' But she added, ``I think that's
going to be an issue that the NTSB will look at and we may make some changes.''
>>Boeing spokesman John Thom said Sunday that the manufacturer of the part used
on Flight 261 had not yet been determined.
No matter where the parts are built, they meet the same stringent
specifications, Thom said. ``We insist on that. We'd be stupid if we didn't.''
================
Question: can a crappy Chinese 3-in-1s make jackscrews?
Pete
mull...@advinc.com
> > involved.
>
> Parts of 747's too, IIRC. This is an election year, isn't it? Why
does
> this sound like the first chapter of Tom Clancy novel?
Nah, this is Nevil Shute. He's already been there and got the
T-shirt!
Jim
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bruce Simpson
>>>I just heard on TV that some parts for Douglas Aircraft were made
>under a Chinees Contract.
>
>But they have ISO 9001 certification! <g>
Meaning that regardless of the quality of the finished product -- the
paperwork is *perfect* :-)
---------------------------------
Don't send email to me, send a Memo.to me
http://memo.to/BruceSimpson
Memo.to, your email firewall, stops junk email dead!
boris beizer
news:B4A9DC798178F629.DA9F9AD6...@lp.airnews.net...
> On 14 Feb 2000 03:57:19 GMT, plalb...@aol.com (PLAlbrecht) wrote:
>
> >>>I just heard on TV that some parts for Douglas Aircraft were made
> >under a Chinees Contract.
> >
> >But they have ISO 9001 certification! <g>
>
> Meaning that regardless of the quality of the finished product -- the
> paperwork is *perfect*
Not quite correct. It means that the paperwork that describes their process
is perfect. Whether that process works or not is immaterial, as long as it
is properly documented.
I know that it is way off topic, but I highly recommend the book by
John Seddon "In Pursuit of Quality -- the Case Against ISO 9000" Oak Tree
Press, London, ISBN 1-86076-042-2.
Now the real question, to get back to the ng topic is: are the
rejected jackscrews being used as lead screws on their machine tools, or is
that the rejected lead screws are being used for the MD-80 jackscrews?
Boris
--
-------------------------------------
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1232 Glenbrook Road on Software Testing and
Huntingdon Valley, PA 19006 Quality Assurance
TEL: 215-572-5580
FAX: 215-886-0144
Email direct: bbe...@sprintmail.com
Email (Forwarded): bbe...@acm.org, bbe...@ieee.org
------------------------------------------
dave_fr...@myremarq.com.invalid
to McDonnel Douglas by Harbor Freight!!
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
Gary Coffman
> Now the real question, to get back to the ng topic is: are the
>rejected jackscrews being used as lead screws on their machine tools, or is
>that the rejected lead screws are being used for the MD-80 jackscrews?
That doesn't seem to be the relevant question. The exact TPI and uniformity
of a jackscrew is relatively unimportant. What matters is the metallurgy of
the screw, which determines if it will fail under design loading or not. That's
the essence of the matter. It is also why there are such great concerns about
counterfeit parts. To first order, the quality of the machining is irrelevant. As
long as the screw conforms roughly to the print, and fits its mating nut, the
machining is satisfactory. It is the quality of the materials, and their heat
treatment if any, that matters. That's usually where corners are cut to save
cost.
Gary
Gary Coffman KE4ZV | You make it |mail to ke...@bellsouth.net
534 Shannon Way | We break it |
Lawrenceville, GA | Guaranteed |
boris beizer
news:3j+oOBhm6N+JAf...@4ax.com...
> On Mon, 14 Feb 2000 15:43:06 GMT, "boris beizer" <bbe...@sprintmail.com>
wrote:
> > Now the real question, to get back to the ng topic is: are the
> >rejected jackscrews being used as lead screws on their machine tools, or
is
> >that the rejected lead screws are being used for the MD-80 jackscrews?
>
> That doesn't seem to be the relevant question. The exact TPI and
uniformity
> of a jackscrew is relatively unimportant. What matters is the metallurgy
of
> the screw, which determines if it will fail under design loading or not.
That's
> the essence of the matter. It is also why there are such great concerns
about
> counterfeit parts. To first order, the quality of the machining is
irrelevant. As
> long as the screw conforms roughly to the print, and fits its mating nut,
the
> machining is satisfactory. It is the quality of the materials, and their
heat
> treatment if any, that matters. That's usually where corners are cut to
save cost.
Okay. A serious answer to my fascecious question. The metalurgy point is
pertinent. I bought the Phase II toolpost from Dave Ficken at Cabin Fever.
I asked him what does the Aloris, say, toolpost do or offer that the Phase
II doesn't. His response paraphrased was (If I've misquoted you Dave, or
misattributed this, apologies all around: " Metallurgy. The import
(Chinese, Indian, etc.) may start out as accurate, but it won't stand up to
the wear. For typical hobbyist use, it will probably last a lifetime,
though."
tonyp
PLAlbrecht <plalb...@aol.com> wrote in part:
> Question: can a crappy Chinese 3-in-1s make jackscrews?
Other question: did good old Americans using good old Bridgeports and
Monarchs ever produce parts that failed in airplanes? I seem to recall
planes crashing before Alaska Air but I can't site a source on the web for
that.
--
Tony Prentakis
Consumer of time, occupier of space, producer of Z-stages
"How can I know what I think until I hear what I have to say?"
PLAlbrecht
>Monarchs ever produce parts that failed in airplanes? I seem to recall
>planes crashing before Alaska Air but I can't site a source on the web for
that.
I'm sure they did. And will continue to do so. But the question remains, why
did the Alaska jet crash? Was it the jackscrew, or some other part of the
Chinese-made assembly? What was wrong with it? And would a domestically made
part have been subjected to better manufacturing or quality control methods?
What entered into the decision to use a Chinese-made part?
Pete
Sonny B. Pickles
>
> I wonder if the Jackscrews were made by Pittsburg Forge and sold
> to McDonnel Douglas by Harbor Freight!!
>
>
You're some kind of sicko fuck head!
Gerald Miller
--
Gerry
London, Canada
Sonny B. Pickles <sbpic...@sciti.com> wrote in message
news:38A8543B...@sciti.com...
Fitch R. Williams
>You're some kind of sicko f***k head!
"plonk"
Fitch
In So. Cal.
The FAQ for RCM is: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
Metal Web News at http://www.mindspring.com/~wgray1/
The "Drop Box" is at http://www.metalworking.com/
SteveK
flight surface, that has a single point failure". It's one thing to trust
the wings not to break, but it's a whole different problem when your talking
about a control actuator. Things that move can fail. The jack screw and nut
have two motors that drive either end, even this is bothersome, it is not
tri-plex, just dual. The jamming of the nut or what I hypothesize happened,
was the nut-screw failure acted like a sprag mechanism. The pilot "fuddled"
with the trim, and could only run the shaft in one direction. The drive
motors did not have enough torque to rotate against the frictional forces.
And they ran it to the end limit. Unfortunately this was an "unflyable" trim
condition. Macdonald Douglas has similar problems with single point failures
in other air frames like the DC11 tail rotor burst that took out all 3
hydraulic elevator actuators. The only thing that allowed the pilot to fly
the airplane, was there still was cables that ran direct from his control
wheel, he lost the "power steering" (the crew had to apply 200-300 lbs. of
force to the control wheel to fly the airplane). This design error should
have been seen, and it is a design error. These are "flight critical
systems" i.e. their failure results in the inability to maintain safe flight
and landing of the airframe. The regulatory agency (FAA and JAA) require a
safety analysis to show that the probability of failure that could result in
a "loss of life" must be greater then 1 per billion hours. Generally a
single channel (electronic) system can only get you 4000 hours (I don't know
what the number is for a "properly" designed mechanical component, but it's
a similar number). So a dual system can get you 16000000 hours. So for
critical systems, you need at least three redundant paths to get you past a
billion hours. This all assumes that they are independent of one another.
They don't fail at the same time, and a failure of one doesn't inhibit the
other paths of control.
It's interesting that military airplanes are only concerned with completing
the mission, and safe flight and landing are not required, i.e. the crew and
airframe are expendable.
Just recently the Boeing 737 airplane exceed 100 million hours total fleet
flight hours. So getting to a billion hours of experience it tough. And this
airframe has had accidents via the rudder actuator (possibly) going hard
over.
I think the story on the billion hour requirement, is that if you plot
probability of death versus age, you get a minimum at age ten of one per
million hours. They wanted the probability to be 1000 times better then
this, and numerically achievable.
SteveK
"Mark Kinsler" <kin...@frognet.net> wrote in message
news:W%3q4.45112$ox5.11...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
> A couple of thoughts on the MD-80 and its stabilizer:
>
> The jackscrew I saw on the evening news used a ballscrew. The covered
> channels through which the balls recirculate were clearly visible on the
> outside of the assembly.
>
> Counterfeit parts are a big problem. A Chinese part isn't necessarily a
> counterfeit part: Chinese factories are perfectly capable of making
> high-quality and very expensive parts. A counterfeit part could have been
> made in a shop staffed by a bunch of goons in the USA, or anywhere else.
>
> One of the more comprehensive books on the subject of where airplanes are
> made and which parts are made where is a novel called _Airframe_ by
> Michael Crichton. It's a book that's more in the tradition of Arthur
> Hailey or the aforementioned Nevil Shute than Tom Clancy's more popular
> military/conspiracy stuff.
>
> M Kinsler
> --
>
............................................................................
> 114 Columbia Ave. Athens, Ohio USA 45701 voice740.594.3737 fax740.592.3059
> Home of the "How Things Work" engineering program for adults and kids.
> See http://www.frognet.net/~kinsler
Eastburn
Jack screw with bronze strings wrapped around it...
Nut - maybe 12" long - two piece double flange type - almost a clean hole
were threads should be.
Sounds to me that the tail is being over torque and the pressure is
being plied on the threads.
Are they overloaded jets and since they have powerful jets - put the
jet on its tail ? and crank on the power ?
Whatever - it looks like nut failure to me - not jackscrew.
Nut likely make you know where - out of odd alloy. That might be it.
Martin
--
NRA LOH, NRA Life
NRA Second Amendment Task Force Charter Founder
Martin Eastburn, Barbara Eastburn
@ home on our computer old...@pacbell.net
tto...@ix.netcom.com
as the MD-80 and have been in use since the first Jet airliners and probably
long before that but my experience only goes back to the first 707 Boeing -80 .
If you seen what is in a Cessna you would never get in one.
Tom
Licensed A&P
eberlein
house, killing sleezo lame duck president and sleezo advisors. First Lady
escapes (on a political trip to York, England) and asks Jack Ryan (now retired)
to investigate the cause of the fatal crash. 600 pages later we learn that alien
invaders landing in Roswell, NM , 1947 have spent the last 50+ years deliberately
subverting the metal fabricating and aerospace industries of the world to prevent
construction of a true interplanetary drive system that needs a special "T-nut"
for successful operation. Seems as if the "T-nut" can only be fabricated by one
with a combination of mechanical appitude with machine tools and and well
developed mental telepathy abilities....I'd tell the rest, but why ruin a good
book.
Mike Eberlein 2/14/99
Mark Kinsler
Larry Phillips
>
> What you should know is that all the big planes have basically the same system
> as the MD-80 and have been in use since the first Jet airliners and probably
> long before that but my experience only goes back to the first 707 Boeing -80 .
> If you seen what is in a Cessna you would never get in one.
> Tom
> Licensed A&P
I've seen what's in a Cessna, and I'd rather fly in a Cessna than any MD
aircraft of more recent vintage than the DC-9.
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
Steve Rayner
I have to disagree with your last statement! I have seen what is in a
Cessna! And I flew it! I agree that the control rigging is not very
impressive to look at though.
tto...@ix.netcom.com wrote:
: What you should know is that all the big planes have basically the same system
: as the MD-80 and have been in use since the first Jet airliners and probably
: long before that but my experience only goes back to the first 707 Boeing -80 .
: If you seen what is in a Cessna you would never get in one.
: Tom
: Licensed A&P
: SteveK wrote:
: > > A couple of thoughts on the MD-80 and its stabilizer:
--
I'm a Canadian eh! Steve.
**************************************************************************
The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
The metalworking drop box is at http://www.metalworking.com
or http://208.213.200.132
**************************************************************************
Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm
************* Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. ****************
******************************** - Virgil ********************************
******Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely.**********
Rich Osman
have an impressive appearance. That control system does have an impressive
reliability record, though.
Steve Rayner wrote:
--
mailto:Ri...@Osman.com http://www.rich.osman.com
Rich Osman; POB 93167;
Southlake, TX 76092 (Near DFW Airport) ARS: WB0HUQ
Ken & Teresa Lilja
Rich Osman wrote:
> Steve, I agree with you. The Cessna's virtue is simplicity, and simple things rarely
> have an impressive appearance. That control system does have an impressive
> reliability record, though.
>
On the Cessna 210 the aileron cables hold the wings on. Sorta. If the cable tension is
too low the ailerons can flutter and cause a wing to fail outboard of the flaps.
I once repaired a Cessna 150 that had landed with it's rudder laying over at a 45 degree
angle to the fin - the top hinge bolt had worked it's way out. Three hinges would have
prevented this.
Ken
Gary Coffman
>Lets look at the facts we have.
>
>Jack screw with bronze strings wrapped around it...
>
>Nut - maybe 12" long - two piece double flange type - almost a clean hole
>were threads should be.
>
>Sounds to me that the tail is being over torque and the pressure is
>being plied on the threads.
So, it might be a design error, it might be inferior metallurgy, or it might
be pilot error, ie flying the aircraft outside its design envelope.
>Are they overloaded jets and since they have powerful jets - put the
>jet on its tail ? and crank on the power ?
They have to fly noise abatement profiles on take off and landing. That
may not have been contemplated when the aircraft was designed. So
it might be design error. OTOH, those profiles should be inside the
design envelope of the aircraft, or the FAA is culpable for setting
profiles not safely achievable by the commercial fleet. I don't think
that likely, however.
I'm still of the opinion that it will turn out to be inferior metallurgy.
It is possible, however, that the problem is improper maintenance.
That was the case with the DC-10 engine pylons. It could be the
case here too.
Esther Heller
eberlein wrote in message <38A8B0DA...@usit.net>...
>It is! Flying rent-a wreck 747 loses control over DC and plummets into
White
>house, killing sleezo lame duck president and sleezo advisors. First Lady
>escapes (on a political trip to York, England) and asks Jack Ryan (now
retired)
>to investigate the cause of the fatal crash. 600 pages later we learn that
alien
>invaders landing in Roswell, NM , 1947 have spent the last 50+ years
deliberately
>subverting the metal fabricating and aerospace industries of the world to
prevent
>construction of a true interplanetary drive system that needs a special
"T-nut"
>for successful operation. Seems as if the "T-nut" can only be fabricated
by one
>with a combination of mechanical appitude with machine tools and and well
>developed mental telepathy abilities....I'd tell the rest, but why ruin a
good
>book.
>
>Mike Eberlein 2/14/99
>
One minor correction, the first lady was on a political trip to upstate
New York, not York England. (I am from upstate NY, ask me how I know?)
Esther
eoh at kodak...
Orrin B. Iseminger
such a profound post. Einstein, move over. We have found someone to share
your throne.
Orrin
In article <38A8543B...@sciti.com>, sbpic...@sciti.com says...
>
>dav...@myremarq.com wrote:
>>
>> I wonder if the Jackscrews were made by Pittsburg Forge and sold
>> to McDonnel Douglas by Harbor Freight!!
>>
>>
>
>You're some kind of sicko fuck head!
Edward Haas
experienced by this aircraft. Shuttling from Alaska in winter to Acapulco
must have some effect long-term. One wonders how much thermal cycling of
this nature had occurred B4 the accident occurred and whether or not these
conditions were anticipated by those responsible for the original design.
--
"Steamboat Ed" Haas : Just another fart in
Watch link rot in action! : the Elevator of Life...
http://www.nmpproducts.com
---Decks a-wash in a sea of words---
Howard R. Garner
Every flight up to the 20-30 thousand foot altitude
undergoes more of a thermal change then just driving on the
surface from Alaska to Mexico.
Now back to lurk mode.
Paul Koning
>
>
>
> I have to disagree with your last statement! I have seen what is in a
> Cessna! And I flew it! I agree that the control rigging is not very
> impressive to look at though.
The term that comes to mind is "elegant". Wire cable is also
nice in that it has lots of redundancy... If it starts to fail
that's rather obvious (fraying).
Then again, usually when I'm in a Cessna I have a parachute on... :-)
So I only worry during the take-off.
paul
Chuck Sherwood
> at a 45 degree angle to the fin - the top hinge bolt had worked it's way
> out. Three hinges would have prevented this.
A GOOD preflight inspection might have caught it too.
Good maintenace helps too.
chuck who use to own a 150
Ron Bean
"CLatham" <chris....@neinsppammomajiq.com> writes:
>I really wonder if it's possible to have zero crashes. Mother Nature's a
>bitch, Murphy was an optimist, and Shit Happens! Planes crash, buildings
>fall down, bridges twist off, Space Shuttles blow up! Put enough parts in
>something and every once in awhile a critical one will break and all the
>hindsight in the world won't keep the next critical part from
>self-destructing underwater, on the ground or in the air! Life causes
>death! We all just keep trying to avoid this inescapable fact.
The idea is not to have zero crashes-- the idea is to avoid
having a bunch of crashes for the *same reason*. The first time
may be an accident, but the second time is not...
BTW Murphy wasn't an optimist, he was an engineer (apparently
some time around WWII-- unfortunately I've lost the reference
for this). His "law" was not a joke, it was a design tool.
In effect, he was saying "If it's possible for something to go
wrong, you'd better have a plan for dealing with it when it does".
You mentioned buildings falling down-- check out a book called
"Construction Failure" by Feld and Carper. Many "accidents"
happen for the same reasons over and over (but not necessarily
for reasons OSHA can do anything about).
Eastburn
I used to do a great deal of flying out of DFW and Austin.
So I know the Red River - Tornado alley and thunderstorms very well.
They will all but stand on their tail - Been in power dives and turns -
You want to run from hail ! - sometimes it spouts from tops of the thunder
clouds and rains down.
The desert southwest can have thunder heads over 60K feet tall.
They can anvil (metal!!) across and that is were the fun begins.
Lighting and hail.
Spehro Pefhany
> Not necessarily so. If you take the standard lapse rate of 4.5 degrees
> F per 1000 feet, times 30 thousand feet you only get a temperature
> difference of 135 degrees. Of course, standard lapse rate by
..
On all of the long-haul flights I have been on in the past few years there
is an outside air temperature display, and it sits around -40C for most of
the flight. So, the temperature difference might be 70C or 126F.
--
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany "The Journey is the reward"
sp...@interlog.com
Fax:(905) 271-9838 (small micro system devt hw/sw + mfg)
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
Spehro Pefhany
> One minor correction, the first lady was on a political trip to upstate
> New York...
Ok, here's an outline of the first chapter. I suggest a joint project
using Linux and cvs to produce a screenplay, the proceeds to be split
equitably among the participants..
The unscrupulous and powerful head of a top software firm is among
those killed in the horrifing fiery crash of a 747 into suburban Seattle.
As news of his death spreads, the Nasdaq tumbles 1,000 points
in the first few hours. Waves of selling spread around The
globe in the days that follow, from Manhattan to Tokyo and Hong Kong to
the City in London and back to NY. Formerly high-flying
tech stocks now have ominous trading halts put on them "due to
order imbalance". No one really knows how bad things are yet.
The Federal Reserve cuts the discount rate by 200, and then
300 basis points, with no effect.
The preliminary findings of the investigation point to the
failure of a metal part made in a Chinese factory. The media
uncovers other examples of Americans killed because of
similar things. Persistent
rumors begin to spread, on the internet and elsewhere,
of it being deliberate sabotage, and denials
of any such evidence by the investigators spawn a thousand
conspiracy theories. The underprivileged, who hardly saw
the boom are the first to feel the bust. South Central LA
and scores of similar areas across the US explode in anger,
and over a hundred Korean shopkeepers and their families are
beaten or burned to death in the chaos that follows. The
military is called in to the inner cities to keep the peace.
An isolationist presidential candidate from a splinter party
seizes the chance to capitalize on the situation, spending
hundreds of millions of dollars to fan the flames.
Public anger against anything foreign becomes commonplace.
Meanwhile, on the other side of the world,
radical students in Seoul move against the government and
the riot police, demanding that American 'occupying forces'
are removed from the country, as their fragile economy
collapses completely. As unrest spreads, US troops are
withdrawn "as a precautionary measure" and public opinion
supports a complete withdrawal. North Korean troops mass
at the border. The lame duck US president is powerless to
change anything, and now everyone knows it.
The government of China orders an immediate moratorium on
all shipments of technical products from the country.
The factories of Taiwan, dependent on their mainland plants,
fall silent; the economy, already reeling, collapses completely.
After the sudden mysterious death of Taiwan's president, the
interim KMT leader asks for "assistance"
from the mainland government. Amphibious landings swiftly
move hundreds of thousands of PLA troops, virtually unopposed,
into Taipei, CKS airport, the heavy industry city of Kaoshiung
and particularly to secure the massive electronics complexes in
Hsinchu. 80% of the world's motherboard production and much of
the semiconductor foundry capacity is now in Mainland hands.
All is not lost, however, the call goes out to Jack Ryan,
enjoying his retirement (good idea, Mike) in the tiny town of Castle
Rock Maine...
;-)
Geopolitically yours,
tonyp
NOSPAMORTRASHMark White <ma...@iconnect.net> wrote in part:
> That being said, and Neville Shute mentioned in this thread, what was
> the name of the book where they had a plane called the "Rutland
> Reindeer" IIRC, which the hero saved the day by raising the gear while
> it was sitting on the ground rather than let it take off and crash? In
> the story the planes had a design fatigue flaw but this one hadn't
> crashed yet because it was being flown in an arctic climate and
> therefore hadn't fatigued to the point of failure yet. (A stretch, but
> sort of like the AK-Mex theory).
Don't know the book, but I distinctly remember seeing this in a movie.
Jimmy Stewart was the hero. I don't remember the movie title either. Too
bad, since it would make a great trivia question: "Name the only movie
ever made about metal fatigue" :)
-- Tony Prentakis
Russ Kepler
Ron Bean <rb...@earth.execpc.com> wrote:
>You mentioned buildings falling down-- check out a book called
>"Construction Failure" by Feld and Carper. Many "accidents"
>happen for the same reasons over and over (but not necessarily
>for reasons OSHA can do anything about).
A more general book (and quite readable) is _To Engineer Is Human_.
--
Russ Kepler ru...@kepler-eng.com
Please Don't Feed the Engineers
PLAlbrecht
>Jimmy Stewart was the hero. I don't remember the movie title either. Too
>bad, since it would make a great trivia question: "Name the only movie
>ever made about metal fatigue" :)
That be "No Highway" (British title) or "No Highway in the Sky" (U.S. title).
1951. Based on novel by Nevil Shute. Starring James Stewart, Marlene Dietrich,
Glynis Johns, Jack Hawkins, Kenneth More, etc. (all the usual Ealing crowd...)
Pete
Spehro Pefhany
> has secret underground factories already in place, on Vancouver Island, in
> Banfffff, and other places, ready to turn out bazillions of computers running
> his new Mineshaft 1984 software...
With the cooperation of his Ottawa based co-conspirator and fellow
software magnate. "Mikhail" (with his fake British accent) and his tarty
wife turn out to be agents of the Russian Mafia. He has long had a sick
and perverse rivalry with his friend to see who could produce the most
bloated and buggy software, while personally promoting the Mucklux
operating system to manipulate stock prices.
> Meanwhile Jake Ryan and Austin Powers team up to thwart his evil plans for
> world domination.
Unfortunately, Ryan discovers the randy Brit in a compromising position
involving Ryan's wife and several jars of Vegemite and kills them both.
Gerald Miller
up at the annual public library book sale while looking for "Trustee......"
(which I got for $1.00 at a flea market) Enjoyed both, may start collecting
another author.
:-)}
--
Gerry
London, Canada
PLAlbrecht <plalb...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000216001341...@ng-cj1.aol.com...
PLAlbrecht
>operating system to manipulate stock prices.
No, no, wait, I see it... something about "booting" Mucklux...
>Unfortunately, Ryan discovers the randy Brit in a compromising position
>involving Ryan's wife and several jars of Vegemite and kills them both.
The wife AND the Vegemite?
Meanwhile, after attempts to buy Vancouver Island fall through, the Seattle
software magnate attempts to circumvent U.S. income taxes by relocating his
operations just across the border, and providing subsidized commuter service
for his employees. They pay only four bucks per day to ride the "32 bit bus."
Pete
Jim
<sp...@interlog.com> wrote:
Ah, the internet--ya gotta luv it! Spehro, you get my vote for the first(?),
anyway, best idea for an internet potboiler. Now, since Fitch is closer to
La La land, maybe he can start on the movie rights? I hereby volunteer for
reading duties (with perhaps a little proofing thrown in for good measure).
;-) Now I'm gonna have to get off the dime and finally get Linux installed!
--
Jim (Jack Ryan's my hero) Naylor
jrna...@concentric.net
F. George McDuffee
would indicate that given the plane is going to crash if the jack
screw nut strips a fail safe get the plane down device should
have been included such that even if the nut strips out there is
some sort of a high strength steel yoke that never contacts the
screw thresds in normal operation but will take over if the nut
strips with a lot of back lash and free play. Of course if the
screw strips or the attachment points break all bets are off. No
redundency with this system -- a single point failure and the
plane goes down???
George
=========================
On 16 Feb 2000 02:52:23 GMT, in...@intellisys.net (brian whatcott)
wrote:
>In article <38A8F2B1...@pacbell.net>, old...@pacbell.net says...
>>
>>Lets look at the facts we have.
>>Jack screw with bronze strings wrapped around it...
>>Nut - maybe 12" long - two piece double flange type - almost a clean hole
>>were threads should be.
>>Sounds to me that the tail is being over torque and the pressure is
>>being plied on the threads.
>>Are they overloaded jets and since they have powerful jets - put the
>>jet on its tail ? and crank on the power ?
>>Whatever - it looks like nut failure to me - not jackscrew.
>>Nut likely make you know where - out of odd alloy. That might be it.
>>
>>Martin
>
>Boy o boy - this crash is bringing out the worst.
> Here's something that doesn't involve foreigners to chew on.
>
> A particularly unhappy failure mode for some big jets is called
>Runaway Pitch Trim..
> When this happens - the plane wants to depart straight and level
>and on some planes the crew cannot hold attitude against the runaway
> - so it has to be disabled pronto - by pulling a breaker or whatever.
>
>Some aircraft have a somewhat similar failure: with autopilot engaged,
>the plane begins to descend (maybe loss of power makes the autopilot
> want to hold speed, etc...) so the pilot tries holding the yoke against
> the pitch down, so the autopilot trims further down...then the autopilot
> gives up and trips out:
>now you have full trim down and a real joyride.
>
> Big jets fly most economically with aft center of gravity, and here the
> elevator trim gets towards an end stop. Way before the mechanical
> end stop - an electrical limit switch is meant to cut the trim drive motor.
> If it doesn't, the jackscrew can try screwing the gymbal nut onto the
> hard stop and it's the unstoppable force meeting the immoveable object.
>
>Have a happy day.
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>
If Education is the answer, what was the question?
Fitch R. Williams
>>Unfortunately, Ryan discovers the randy Brit in a compromising position
>>involving Ryan's wife and several jars of Vegemite and kills them both.
>
>The wife AND the Vegemite?
The Vegemite needed killin.
Fitch
In So. Cal.
The FAQ for RCM is: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
Metal Web News at http://www.mindspring.com/~wgray1/
The "Drop Box" is at http://www.metalworking.com/
dan
>
>
>NOSPAMORTRASHMark White <ma...@iconnect.net> wrote in part:
>
>> That being said, and Neville Shute mentioned in this thread, what was
>> the name of the book where they had a plane called the "Rutland
>> Reindeer" IIRC, which the hero saved the day by raising the gear while
>> it was sitting on the ground rather than let it take off and crash? In
>> the story the planes had a design fatigue flaw but this one hadn't
>> crashed yet because it was being flown in an arctic climate and
>> therefore hadn't fatigued to the point of failure yet. (A stretch, but
>> sort of like the AK-Mex theory).
>
>Don't know the book, but I distinctly remember seeing this in a movie.
>Jimmy Stewart was the hero. I don't remember the movie title either. Too
>bad, since it would make a great trivia question: "Name the only movie
>ever made about metal fatigue" :)
>
>-- Tony Prentakis
That would be _no highway_.
for more info see:
http://us.imdb.com/Title?0043859
~Dan
brian whatcott
beef up one component ( as they often do) they may well be
weakening the structure as a whole or at the very least, making
it heavy. It's particularly important to remind them of the danger
of adding weight in the tail area - the moment arm is so long,
and aft Cof G is so..er.. unfortunate.
And when like George they step up to the plate to tell a major
airplane design team how they should be redesigning one of
the world's more reliable airplanes, he shouldn't be surprised
if they reply something like this:
1) If Air Alaska had replaced the jackscrew on this very airplane
when it was written up two years ago, then that plane would be
flying now.
But guess what, they wanted to save a nickel and retested it to
find, surprise, surprise! that its "wear was within allowables"
2) If the crew had not tried to save a nickel and instead put down
when they found pitch control problems ( For goodness sake!)
They would be alive and kicking. Instead, they putzed around,
overflying a dozen fields for another hour or two, before buying
the farm.
Believe me: aircrew are not mechanics and they *for sure*
aren't engineers.
Brian Whatcott Altus OK
In article <38aa4802...@news.terraworld.net>,
fmc...@terraworld.net says...
PLAlbrecht
>The Vegemite needed killin.
That defense only works in Texas.
Pete
Jon Elson
Steve Rayner wrote:
> Macdonald Douglas has similar problems with single point failures
> : > in other air frames like the DC11 tail rotor burst that took out all 3
> : > hydraulic elevator actuators. The only thing that allowed the pilot to fly
> : > the airplane, was there still was cables that ran direct from his control
> : > wheel, he lost the "power steering" (the crew had to apply 200-300 lbs. of
> : > force to the control wheel to fly the airplane).
Well, I think it was determined that the flight wires are entirely for
position feedback to the control yokes, and provide no meaningful
effort to the flight surfaces. It wasn't just the elevators they lost control
of, it was the rudder, ailerons, flaps and slats, landing gear, brakes,
spoilers, etc. The indication that the controls didn't do anything was that
the yoke was turned to the stop, and pulled all the way back to
the stop, when the hydraulic power was fading. They stayed in
that position until the crash. All flight control was through the
engines. They finally got it slowed down by manually extending the
landing gear, because there was no way to manually extend flaps.
> This design error should
> : > have been seen, and it is a design error. These are "flight critical
> : > systems" i.e. their failure results in the inability to maintain safe flight
> : > and landing of the airframe. The regulatory agency (FAA and JAA) require a
> : > safety analysis to show that the probability of failure that could result in
> : > a "loss of life" must be greater then 1 per billion hours. Generally a
> : > single channel (electronic) system can only get you 4000 hours (I don't know
> : > what the number is for a "properly" designed mechanical component, but it's
> : > a similar number). So a dual system can get you 16000000 hours. So for
> : > critical systems, you need at least three redundant paths to get you past a
> : > billion hours. This all assumes that they are independent of one another.
> : > They don't fail at the same time, and a failure of one doesn't inhibit the
> : > other paths of control.
> : >
Right. The single point of failure was location. It was possible for a
single failing component (the fan, the biggest single part in the whole
plane) to throw fragments into all 3 hydraulic systems in the tail, where
so much of the hydraulic controls are.
Jon
Larry Phillips
And in any country in which Vegemite is not considered edible.
--
Hukt on fonix werkt fer me!
brian whatcott
plalb...@aol.com says...
>
>The infinitely wise Brian What?cott wrote
>
>>2) If the crew had not tried to save a nickel and instead put down when they
>found pitch control problems ( For goodness sake!) They would be alive and
>kicking. Instead, they putzed around,
>overflying a dozen fields for another hour or two, before buying the farm.
>And what, pray tell, are your qualifications for second-guessing the aircrew?
>Pete
>engineer _and_ licensed pilot
Try looking at my signature line and work it out, Superman.
Brian Whatcott Altus OK
PLAlbrecht
>
>Brian Whatcott Altus OK
>
"Brian Whatcott, Altus, OK" tells me very little, Boy Blunder.
Steve Rayner
: Steve Rayner wrote:
No I didn't!
: > Macdonald Douglas has similar problems with single point failures
: Jon
--
I'm a Canadian eh! Steve.
**************************************************************************
The FAQ for rec.crafts.metalworking is at: http://w3.uwyo.edu/~metal
The metalworking drop box is at http://www.metalworking.com
or http://208.213.200.132
**************************************************************************
Visit my website at: http://www.victoria.tc.ca/~ud233/homepage.htm
************* Tu ne cede malis, sed contra audentior ito. ****************
******************************** - Virgil ********************************
******Yield thou not to adversity, but press on the more bravely.**********
Ole-Hjalmar Kristensen
william thomas powers
>
>Altus AFB, Oklahoma, perhaps?
Perhaps; but all my kinfolk in and around Altus are cotton farmers...
Thomas Powers
Kim Whitmyre
>
I love it!
Kim
tma...@xtra.co.nz
PLAlbrecht wrote:
>
> >Try looking at my signature line and work it out, Superman.
> >
> >Brian Whatcott Altus OK
> >
>
Gerry Einarsson
in Ottawa, Canada in the late 60's. It was a crew training flight, and
was traced to an incorrectly installed fuel valve. Still making the same
mistake 20 years later!
I could see the pillar of smoke from my apartment window, and still
remember the dread awaiting the news to hear the details. Although there
were lives lost, fortunately no pax were involved.
Gerry
Robert Bastow ("teenut"@ hotmail.com) writes:
> If I remember vaguely.....
>
> Murphy was assigned to investigate the crash of a recently designed, WWII bomber
> which crashed shortly after take off, with a full fuel load.
>
> Initial investigations pointed to fuel starvation, and it was eventually
> discovered that an inline fuel check valve or similar, had been re-installed the
> wrong way round, after a routine service.
>
> This was possible because the threads on each end were identical. His discovery
> and report lead to the adoption of dissimilar threads at each end of components
> of that nature and his report, recommending such a change, read, in effect..
>
> 1) If anything CAN go wrong..It WILL!
>
> 2) It will always happen at the worst possible time and place.
>
> This passed into history as "Murphy's First and Second Laws"
>
> Since then, many variations have been added and "Murphy" has come to be looked
> upon as the root cause of all mischief..whereas he was in fact a great
> contributor to the cause of safety and reliability.
>
> "Murphy loves a challenge" (teenut's Law)
>
> "Just wait 'til Murphy gets bored" (teenut's Law)
Gerry Einarsson
Love the novel. Please continue with more details.....
It's developing better than the real thing - I'm in the middle of SSN, and
am not sure I'll bother picking up another Clancy novel.
You're a little thin on the romantic side though, having dispatched them
practically in the same sentence they were introduced....
Vegemite... woulda never thought of that <grin>. Is it an improvement over
peanut butter?
Gerry <awaiting further chapters> Einarsson
Spehro Pefhany (sp...@interlog.com) writes:
> The renowned PLAlbrecht <plalb...@aol.com> wrote:
>> has secret underground factories already in place, on Vancouver Island, in
>> Banfffff, and other places, ready to turn out bazillions of computers running
>> his new Mineshaft 1984 software...
>
> With the cooperation of his Ottawa based co-conspirator and fellow
> software magnate. "Mikhail" (with his fake British accent) and his tarty
> wife turn out to be agents of the Russian Mafia. He has long had a sick
> and perverse rivalry with his friend to see who could produce the most
> bloated and buggy software, while personally promoting the Mucklux
> operating system to manipulate stock prices.
>
>> Meanwhile Jake Ryan and Austin Powers team up to thwart his evil plans for
>> world domination.
>
> Unfortunately, Ryan discovers the randy Brit in a compromising position
> involving Ryan's wife and several jars of Vegemite and kills them both.
>
>
Gerry Einarsson
border checks to prevent its migration to Canada, but like Zebra Mussels,
it made it here. Gotta man those borders more vigilantly....
Gerry
Fitch R. Williams (frwi...@ptw.com) writes:
> plalb...@aol.com (PLAlbrecht) wrote:
>
>>>Unfortunately, Ryan discovers the randy Brit in a compromising position
>>>involving Ryan's wife and several jars of Vegemite and kills them both.
>>
Bob Chilcoat
Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> wrote in message
news:Pvpq4.1664$ps1.1...@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com...
> If I remember vaguely.....
>
> Murphy was assigned to investigate the crash of a recently designed, WWII
bomber
> which crashed shortly after take off, with a full fuel load.
>
> Initial investigations pointed to fuel starvation, and it was eventually
> discovered that an inline fuel check valve or similar, had been
re-installed the
> wrong way round, after a routine service.
>
> This was possible because the threads on each end were identical. His
discovery
> and report lead to the adoption of dissimilar threads at each end of
components
> of that nature and his report, recommending such a change, read, in
effect..
>
> 1) If anything CAN go wrong..It WILL!
>
> 2) It will always happen at the worst possible time and place.
>
> This passed into history as "Murphy's First and Second Laws"
>
> Since then, many variations have been added and "Murphy" has come to be
looked
> upon as the root cause of all mischief..whereas he was in fact a great
> contributor to the cause of safety and reliability.
>
> "Murphy loves a challenge" (teenut's Law)
>
> "Just wait 'til Murphy gets bored" (teenut's Law)
>
Robert,
Your story may well have been the same Murphy, but I believe that he first
coined what became known as "Murphy's Law" when he was engineering project
leader for Col. Stapp's rocket sled tests. These were the tests where the
subject (the amazing Col. Stapp) was strapped into a seat on the front of a
rocket sled, the rockets were fired and the sled accelerated to several
hundred mph. It then hit a section near the end of the track that had a
water trough in between the rails. A steel plow underneath the sled would
engage the water and stop the sled very rapidly with accelerations up to
12-15 g. Almost all the data about the ability of the human body to
tolerate high g decelerations came from these tests.
Murphy was obsessive about checking connections to all the equipment. He
was particularly irritated when someone connected some strain gage circuits
backwards, and they lost a lot of data. He insisted on developing systems
that could not be incorrectly connected because "if someone can connect
something wrong, they will". He apparently always hated being associated
with the evenual "fatalistic" version of his "law", which was really about
human factors and obsessive checking for accuracy.
Bob (who coined "Chilcoat's law of engineering demonstrations": "Nothing
ever works in front of witnesses". Also known as the "Now watch this... Oh
shit!" phenomenon)
Bruce Simpson
<view...@erREMOVEols.com> wrote:
>
>Robert Bastow <"teenut"@ hotmail.com> wrote in message
>news:Pvpq4.1664$ps1.1...@news1.rdc1.ga.home.com...
>> If I remember vaguely.....
>>
>> Murphy was assigned to investigate the crash of a recently designed, WWII
>bomber
>> which crashed shortly after take off, with a full fuel load.
Murphy's Slaw?
I thought it was that sliced cabbage, grated carrots and onion in
mayonaise concoction I've been buying from the Irish cafe'
:-)
---------------------------------
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http://memo.to/BruceSimpson
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John Miller
news:88uk6p$9mf$1...@bob.news.rcn.net...
> Murphy was obsessive about checking connections to all the equipment. He
> was particularly irritated when someone connected some strain gage
circuits
> backwards, and they lost a lot of data. He insisted on developing systems
> that could not be incorrectly connected because "if someone can connect
> something wrong, they will". He apparently always hated being associated
> with the evenual "fatalistic" version of his "law", which was really about
> human factors and obsessive checking for accuracy.
Real close to the version I read years ago in a naval aviation accident
prevention publication. If memory serves (and more often it doesn't, these
days), Murphy's original was along the lines of "If you make a part that can
be installed two ways, and one of them is wrong, someone is going to install
it that way."
brian whatcott
>... I believe that he first coined what became known as
> "Murphy's Law" when he was engineering project
>leader for Col. Stapp's rocket sled tests. These were the tests where the
>subject (the amazing Col. Stapp) was strapped into a seat on the front of a
>rocket sled, the rockets were fired and the sled accelerated to several
>hundred mph.
>Bob (who coined "Chilcoat's law of engineering demonstrations"
I seem to recall reading an obit not too long ago.
If memory serves - he died in bed - like a brave man should!
Brian W
Dan Caster
"John Miller" <j...@n4vu.com> wrote:
The idea of making it impossible to misconnect cables was taken to
heart by the Navy. The Polaris missile was designed so that it was
impossible to assemble it with cables misconnected. Unfortunately
the same approach was taken with the cables for the support equipment.
So a great deal more money was spent on the design and procurement
of the support equipment than necessary. The support equipment was
only connected once and the consequences if misconnected would not
have been severe. NASA took the other approach. Almost all support
equipment cables were identical except for the sleeves that identified
where they connected. Dan
> Real close to the version I read years ago in a naval aviation accident
> prevention publication. If memory serves (and more often it doesn't, these
> days), Murphy's original was along the lines of "If you make a part that can
> be installed two ways, and one of them is wrong, someone is going to install
> it that way."
>
>
--
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Janos Ero
>
> In article <88v66a$ek9$1...@nntp8.atl.mindspring.net>,
> "John Miller" <j...@n4vu.com> wrote:
>
> The idea of making it impossible to misconnect cables was taken to
> heart by the Navy. The Polaris missile was designed so that it was
> impossible to assemble it with cables misconnected.
A few weeks ago young (25) engineer presented us his
newest design, an electronics board. He was quite
surprized when I asked him if he has different
size and/or shape connectors for the inputs and
outputs and for the different signal's connections.
He promised me that they will glue stickers on
the connectors and then nobody will miss them.
When I suggested again to have different connectors
he was looking at me as you look at mentally
disabled people.
Janos Ero
Esther Heller
Janos Ero wrote in message <38B4FCD7...@cern.ch>...
A year or two in field service for the item in question
might make him change his tune. It is a very
different thing to change a part in a large machine
in tight quarters with no task lighting other than
a flashlight held in your third hand than to do the
same thing in a nice development lab.....
Esther
who spent 8 years in field service followed by
5 years simulating field service in development labs...
eoh at kodak
Dan Caster
that had identical connectors for input and output. He had made it
idiot proof by designing it so that it made no difference how you
connected it. Both connectors would work for either input or output.
He did however carefully lable one as input and the other as output
so as not to confuse anyone.
Dan
>
> A few weeks ago young (25) engineer presented us his
> newest design, an electronics board. He was quite
> surprized when I asked him if he has different
> size and/or shape connectors for the inputs and
> outputs and for the different signal's connections.
> He promised me that they will glue stickers on
> the connectors and then nobody will miss them.
> When I suggested again to have different connectors
> he was looking at me as you look at mentally
> disabled people.
>
> Janos Ero