knot stories
charlie
company to make a film about knots.
He asked me to do some research for him.
I sent him lots of stuff already on knots in history and anthropology but he
says that I haven't found the right sort of stuff, that what the T.V.
company will want are an assortment of human stories about knots...
Incidents where a knot had a dramatic effect..
Racking my brains I find that I cannot think of a single story in which a
knot played a vital role
So, I post a query to ask all of you.. Though I cannot promise anything,
because nothing is yet guaranteed I do assure anyone who replies with a
story that is used by this company will get something back, from me at
least.
and thanks in advance,
from Charlie
CANOPYTREE
>company will want are an assortment of human stories about knots...
>Incidents where a knot had a dramatic effect..
What about the Hangman's Noose?
Earl Jacksboro
I'll bet that prior to any systematic/scientific and widely
published testing, (such as Ashley reports in his bible)
that the security of knots was determined by trial and error
over the years, and most knotting "rules" were written in
blood. Bet the rules and procedures were suitably
emphasized to apprentices with "based on fact" horror
stories of what will happen if it isn't tied "this way."
Ashley's remarks about when a knot is wrong and when it is
right are an example of the importance placed on such
"rules."
I was thinking about this and instantly thought of the
movie "Everest" in which the successful application of
numerous knots was illustrated with much drama. Also,
another climbing movie, "K-2" in which there was not a
single knot failure mentioned. Charlie, are these not
"vital roles," as you put it?
Or are you looking for the type of vital role where the
knot *failed* and catastrophe resulted?
<Dick>
charlie <c...@orangeblossom.demon.co.uk> wrote in article
<917954727.19234.0...@news.demon.co.uk>...
> A friend of mine who runs a film making company has been
asked by a T.V.
> company to make a film about knots.
> He asked me to do some research for him.
> I sent him lots of stuff already on knots in history and
anthropology but he
> says that I haven't found the right sort of stuff, that
what the T.V.
> company will want are an assortment of human stories about
knots...
> Incidents where a knot had a dramatic effect..
James Burdine
heard that he was to be hung, but he wagered his
freedom by betting that he could tie a knot that
no one could untie. I'm not sure where I read
that. Then there is the story of Alexander the
Great and teh Gourdean knot(sp) The story was that
Asia could not be conquered until someone figured
how to untie the knot. He cut through it with a
sword.
Navy Tugmaster
charlie wrote:
company will want are an assortment of human stories about knots...
Incidents where a knot had a dramatic effect..
...a knot played a vital role
I don't know any 'stories' but there is nothing more dramatic than
watching an 8" bight of 3-strand nylon parting. The Navy has all its
recruits watch a movie 'Synthetic Snap-back' in boot camp. Line that
big has been known to remove body parts and deck furniture when it has
parted. Hell, I knew a Data Systems Technician First Class who
sports a WICKED scar on his right calf. He was a Boatswain Mate working
the foc's'le at the time. The line parted and hit him. He refused to
set foot on the foc's'le again. Changed his rate it had such an
impact. And the scar was 8"-12" long and about a 3/4" wide.
All right so I do know a story. The lines I work with are
double-braid, eight to ten inches in circumference. Even when they part
it is something of a sight. And when they part, rarely is it other than
the splice that fails.
--
Whenever, I find myself growing grim about the mouth; whenever it is a
damp, drizzly November in my soul...I account it high time to get to sea
as soon as I can. This is my substitute for pistol and ball. With a
philosophical flourish Cato throws himself upon his sword, I quietly
take to the ship. Ishmael/Moby Dick
K. Ulstein
I think it may be difficult to think of a story where knots play a
vital role because knots are tools. No one cares about cressent
wrenches and hammers, unless they break at in opportune times or go
missing durring space station repair.
Most stories I know about knots are puzzle stories. There's a problem
that must be solved, and a knot is the answer. Anyway here are some
of my stories. Let me know if you want a diffrent Genre.
***
Last week I was helping a friend move. One of the items she was moving
was a round fish bowl. Anyway since she was moving to the country
(bumpy roads) she wanted a way to seal the top. She tried to use a
rubber band to seal the top, but the water kept splashing out when we
moved the tank.
Worried for Norman Bates (the black fish) and Wong Kar-wei (the one
finned fish) I removed the rubber band and replaced it with the
Constrictor Knot. It's a quick to tie knot, one of my favorates.
Anyway three seconds later I had sealed the tank. And held it upside
down to the applause of the moving crew and the horified shreeks of
the goldfish owner.
***
My grandmother invited Kyle, her first (and only) great grandson to
her house. It's a two story house and the staircase has banesters that
are spaced far apart, large enough for Kyle to step through.
In Kyles home the banesters are close togeather and he has fun poking
his head through them, or kicking his feet through the bars. Anyway
this memory caused him to try to jump through the banesters whenever
he came over. Kyle was much faster than Great Grandma and she was
worried sick that one day the parents wouldn't be close enough to
catch him.
By this time, my grandmother knew that my odd knot tying skils had a
funny way of coming in handy. She asked me to put up a baracade to
keep the Kyle safe. I used the circus hitch (so named because the
circus carnies used to use it to erect baracades) to make a string
fence across the holes.
Yes, Kyle was safe, but there's a fun twist to the story. The
horizontal strings were streached so tight that they could be plucked.
The whole staircase had been transformed into a musical instrerment
which the grandkids played insessently. It drove me nuts, but Grandma
loved it.
***
I think that the Prussic knot was invented because Mr. Prussic was
mountain climbing and fell into a hole, breaking an arm (leg?). Anyway
the nessesity of not freezing to death in an icy hole spurred him onto
invent (discover?) the Prussic knot.
***
I'm amazed at how little my contemporaries know about knots. I'm even
more amazed when I look back at Ashley's Book of Knots and for one of
his parlor tricks he shows how to make the clove hitch fail. It was a
real croud pleaser because everyone knew and trusted clove hitches.
Try that now days? "What the heck is a clove hitch?" the parlor
grumbles.
***
Japanese Samurai used to capture foes with knot tying. It's called
"Hojo Jutsu" "Tori Nawa" I forget the other name. I've heard that the
Tokyo police still know how to do it and it's very exciting to behold.
I haven't seen it done in a quick and impressive manner here in the
states though.
I own a video about it _HoJo Jitsu Samurai Tying Arts_ But it's slow
as can be, not fit for television in my opinion. Made by Dragon Video
Library. Stay away from it.
The only exciting version I saw in film was in the movie _The ROCK_.
Sean Connery uses a tori nawa technique and makes it look good.
(Of coursh that fellow could make a granny knot look shexy!)
***
Hope this is useful (or at least interesting)
____----------____
Kenji Ulstein http://weber.u.washington.edu/~kenhar
A knot is never "nearly right"; it is either exactly right
or it is hopelessly wrong...
-Clifford W. Ashley
Ed
water, fire fighter, and ski/climber rescue people...Also check out
the military SAS, Rangers, Special Forces, Seals, ... IMHO the knots
portion will be 0.1% and the "human" tragedy will be 99.9%...
I'd love to see someone do a show on knots, actually I'd like to see
several half hour "this is how you tie this knot" documentary type
programs, i.e. an in depth show for fancy knot tyers. I've seen a few
attempts at the end of "I'll teach you sailing" programs. But to the
average person on the street it would be like death warmed over...
I know let's name them "Knot911", Dragnet - "Thieves Knot", Murder She
Wrote - "Revenge of the Granny Knot", "The Ox Bowline Incident", or
how about "Matthew Walker's Twisted mind!", "Starknot Shanghai",
"Harringbone Choker", "Celtic meets Chinese -- Border meets Button",
"Lovers knot to Turk's Head."
But I degress --
I've had a neighbor who knocked on my door -- "Can I borrow your
truck, I need to move some things!" -- "No!, but I'll drive." -- Only
to find out that they've moved the mattress my holding onto it on the
top of their car, and can't move the box springs because their arms
aren't long enough....Ahhhhhh!!!!....And were amazed at the lengths I
took tying down the rest of their stuff....They were impressed with
the truckers hitch...
I've been at the hardware store buying wood and tied mine down while
the guy behind me gets the cheap free stuff, goes around his load
once, and drives away...'Cringe!'
Rock Climbers (& Mountaineers) use rope to prevent death! We take a
calculated risk and if we've done EVERYTHING right the rope saves our
butt. But there is nothing heroic in the rope or knot that does it.
We just did not fall far enough to break the rope!!! Climbing
accidents happen because people are inexperienced, cocky, elated, or
tired. One of my climbing instructors told a scary story of a bad
fall he had taken 'They had finished the climb, but in their elation
at reaching the top had not fully secured good anchors. Well, he fell
and ended up at the bottom. He survived because he just happened to
land in snow drift' he'd be dead otherwise. It was his warning to us
to be careful because Murphy is always around the corner. Even if
your a safety freak about rope, knots, and anchors they can still
fail because people climb when mentally tired, physically drained, so
oxygen starved that they incorrectly placed anchors, badly tied knots
or tied the wrong knot for the situation. Not very good drama! BTW
IMHO, I'd say that if a climber gets into trouble it is one in a
thousand that he would use a "standard" knot he's practiced ten
thousand times to get him/her out of a bad situation, not some fancy
or obscure knot.
Back on target -- I also work for the research part of the Navy, and
most people I've met both active and civilian not don't use rope for a
living...neither do I... A good Boatswain Mate, qualified rigger, and
deck foreman are worth their weight in gold. I've been on sea trials
that went bad, but it is usually human error that causes the drama.
I've learned to heed the warnings -- 'Never step into a coil of rope',
'Never get between a line under tension and an immovable object', and
'be alert when ever on deck' -- that the experienced deck hands dish
out. I'm sorry to say, I've even learned the hard way the old didy
"One hand for yourself and one for the ship", the leg has mended but
I'll never forget it again.
It's very cool when the tugs dance an aircraft carrier into her berth,
and a little port opens up, out pops a head, much shouting as everyone
scrambles out of the way, and out shoots a line. Dock hands haul and
then out comes a bigger line, that grows as it gets nearer to you.
But its size is puny compared to this great big floating city.
OK enough already...
On Tue, 02 Feb 1999 11:24:32 +0000, "charlie"
<c...@orangeblossom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>A friend of mine who runs a film making company has been asked by a T.V.
>company to make a film about knots.
>He asked me to do some research for him.
>I sent him lots of stuff already on knots in history and anthropology but he
>says that I haven't found the right sort of stuff, that what the T.V.
>company will want are an assortment of human stories about knots...
>Incidents where a knot had a dramatic effect..
>Racking my brains I find that I cannot think of a single story in which a
>knot played a vital role
>So, I post a query to ask all of you.. Though I cannot promise anything,
>because nothing is yet guaranteed I do assure anyone who replies with a
>story that is used by this company will get something back, from me at
>least.
>and thanks in advance,
>from Charlie
Ed
Replace "$pamblocker$" with "erols" to relpy
Navy Tugmaster
Ed wrote:
> It's very cool when the tugs dance an aircraft carrier into her berth,
> and a little port opens up, out pops a head, much shouting as everyone
> scrambles out of the way, and out shoots a line. Dock hands haul and
> then out comes a bigger line, that grows as it gets nearer to you.
> But its size is puny compared to this great big floating city.
>
You are absolutely correct sir!! I am having the MOST fun I have
EVER had with my clothes on! Don't do Carriers but M/T Allegiance is
inbound shortly, Big 'un! Looks even more like a ballet when you have
six or seven ships inbound, half hour apart, one tug, one pilot...
"Stand-by, Sir, I am making my approach...."
charlie
<c...@orangeblossom.demon.co.uk> wrote:
>A friend of mine ...
Thanks very much for all your answers. There is a great deal of interesting
stuff. I mean to reply to it personally, but for the moment here is some
more from me.
I really enjoyed reading all the letters, and thought I might as well post
what I sent the film producer originally, and what occasioned this request
for 'human stories' I am no expert, just an occasional amateur interest
based in UK, so there is probably a great deal wrong in this, but here it is
anyway:
Dear Andrew,
about a film on knots. I¹ve spent a couple of days in the libraries, and
looked through all my own books to see what I could find out. Here is a
selected précis of my notes and jottings.
Firstly, there are two authorities on knots who are interesting and worth
consulting. The first is English, called Geoffrey Budworth, he is the old
Thames Lighterman I told you about. Everyone in the British knot world has a
kind word to say about him. He is probably not that old. He only spent ten
years on the river, and his first knot book was published in the early
eighties. He was president for a while of the International Knot Tyers
Association. He has a very straightforward, practical and interesting
approach.
The other man is a Dutch professor, Peter van de Griend, whose book on the
History and Science of Knots has just come out but is yet unavailable here.
I have read three pamphlets he wrote for the International Knot Tyers
Association which are fascinating. He is unique in having done serious
historical work on knots, also he understands the basics of mathematical
knot theory, which he ties in with his work on practical knot tying.
The History and Culture of knots
The history of knots is particularly problematic, but is particularly
interesting for being so, because in some ways knots are the antitheses of
writing. In various parts of the world knotcraft preceded and obviated the
need for written records. Knotcraft was most highly developed among
non-literate societies. There is much evidence too that knots represented a
vital first step toward the creation of letters. This is especially true of
both Egypt and China. There has been a longstanding tradition in China from
the time of Confucius that the early dynasties made their records with
knots, a method which was superseded with the invention of writing. In Egypt
many of the oldest hieroglyphs are quite clearly representations of knotted
cord. Most famous of all civilisations where knot tying obviated the need
for written records were the Incas of Peru. All their vast and extremely
efficient administrative records were kept in Quipu, elaborate strings of
knots, which still to my knowledge have not been fully deciphered.
In the west also there is this strong antitheses between knots and writing.
Knotcraft was the chief leisure pursuit of long haul illiterate sailors.
Apparently it was not only the arrival of steam which killed the craft, but
earlier than this it was the arrival of ships¹ libraries. (There was a
popular philanthropic movement in late 19th century Britain and America to
equip ships with libraries) The chief exponents of Western knotcraft were
all illiterate. Knotting was their means of record, there are very few 19th
century books on knotting, and those that do exist were not written by
masters given the number of mistakes they contain.
The book you probably have is Ashley¹s book of knots. This is the knot tyers
bible. Ashley was the last of the great encyclopaedic knot tyers, but the
only one to write his knowledge down. He is very interesting as a
representative of the great voracious sailor knot tyers of the last century,
seeing knots everywhere, observing their peculiar qualities. In the absence
of almost any other information, every anecdote he puts down is interesting.
From him we learn such strange facts as when he visited an American circus
to inspect what knots were used in holding up the big top, almost every knot
he saw was new to him. This was in his native America, and yet if you
dropped him in any harbour from the Arctic to the South Sea Islands, he
would have had not trouble in recognising and naming any one of the many
thousand knots that would be on display.
The great knot hunger of men like Ashley and his forbears sailors all
did somehow blur the distinction between various trade knots as they existed
up to that time. No butcher ever made a record of butchers knots, though
they are legion, or miller of miller¹s knots. But sailors collected these
knots, and almost made them their own. It was the sailors¹ pride in knots
that incorporated all these separate craft technologies of almost every
profession of weavers, surgeons, policemen even into one organic craft
of which the sailors were the sole masters.
In a way the same is true of the knots of various cultures. Knots are of
course universal, and as pointed out earlier, some of the most sophisticated
knots were found among the most Œprimitive¹ people from Inuits to
Polynesians. The art of knot tying became in some ways the Imperium of the
white Anglo Saxon (according to Ashley knot craft was most developed on
British and American boats) sailors. These sailors gathered knots from all
parts of the world, incorporated them into a vast canon of their own making,
which collapsed on itself entirely and disappeared.
The History of knots themselves.
Van de Griend is very good on the histories and developments of particular
knots. For example, the Sheet bend into the bowline.
The sheet bend is probably one of the oldest knots in the world. It is the
most basic, and most common way of joining two ropes together. Griend says
that it is observable in nature, but does not specify exactly where. At the
Qeqertasussuk excavations in Northern Greenland several sheet bends were
found in the permafrost tied in whale baleen. This was an Inuit settlement
around 4,700 B.C. Interestingly these knots were all tiny.
In form the sheet bend is very similar to the Bowline, except that the
bowline is a knot and not a bend (i.e. it is tied in one piece of cord, a
bend joins two pieces of cord) And yet the bowline, which is one of the most
fantastic of knots, and whose qualities you can have great fun
demonstrating, does not appear anywhere until the early 17th century when it
first appears in the West.
The Inuit themselves developed their own version of the bowline, called the
Boas bowline after the anthropologist who discovered it, and this Inuit
bowline then proceeds to have its own distribution. Apparently it is to be
seen on a sledge in the British Museum which was collected in 1818 during a
search for the North West Passage. It also appears in 17th Scandinavia. (The
expertise of the Inuits in some parts stems from the fact that they used
whale baleen for their knots, which is very smooth and presents frictional
problems of the same order as those posed by synthetic monofilament lines).
The knots themselves.
Television must be a peculiarly good medium for both describing and
demonstrating individual knots, showing how and when they are used. Knots
have been called the oldest tool we have, and in their simplicity and
effectiveness there is a very real magic in the demonstration of an apt
knot. From Budworth¹s book is this fine passage describing the Lighterman¹s
Back Mooring Hitch: ³Taking in tow a drifting Thames barge was exciting and
challenging work which I always enjoyed. Having one of those monsters
laden weight maybe a couple of hundred tonnes wallowing only feet from the
stern of your boat, hung on the end of a one and a half inch diameter
towline which could part with the strain at any moment, made you choose with
care the hitch you put around the oaken towing post Œmidships. We always
used the Lighterman's Back Mooring Hitch.... This enormously strong hitch
will hold anything, yet can be cast free in a few life-saving seconds if
things look like going wrong....²
There are many other individual knots whose qualities can be well
illustrated. Almost all writers on knots have their stories of when
knowledge of a particular knot became invaluable. All these practical
examples could be collected.
There are many knots in everyday use, which you can see all about you, which
almost everyone would profit from learning. The Waggoners Hitch, used by
lorry drivers to hold down loads very tightly. Or various pulleys made in
the rope, which are good enough to let a single person pull a car out of a
ditch. The Constrictor knot, or the transom, which are incredibly simple to
learn and which are extraordinarily useful once known.
I have not yet read anything about Climbers knots, which are so important
that most knot books tread very carefully over them. Obviously, the most
exciting knot stories are probably to do with climbers.
The knot as symbol and in folklore.
The knot seems to have had superstitious connotations for a very long time
and among many different people. The Romans only left us the image of one
knot, the Hercules Knot, a reef knot, which was their version of the true
love knot. Typical of many ancient and classical people are the Egyptians
who in their paintings took great pains not to represent any knot.
Apparently, in pictures where every detail is precisely delineated, if a
knot appears in a person¹s clothing, then the artist takes particular
trouble to leave the knot imprecise. One has to wait until the medieval
Celts to find anything other than a Hercules knot rendered in Western art.
In the medieval West knots also acquired orthodox religious significance.
The Franciscan monks tied three overhand knots in the end of the cingulum
(rope belt) to stand for their oath of poverty, chastity and obedience.
Knots also begin to appear as chivalric devices. In the secular knighthood,
the Order of Naples, founded in 1347, knots came to express the piety of
these fighting monks. If you killed someone in battle, you had to untie your
knot, and wait before retying it till you had visited the holy grave. A knot
became a record of the soul. This is a very interesting and unresearched
area. There is a huge amount to be said about the symbolism of knots...
there is a fascinating sequence of case histories recorded by the English
pioneer of child psychology, D. W. Winnicott, in which children, afraid of
separation, become obsessive knot tyers and string joiners...
charlie
<sex...@HSALFflash.net> wrote:
Dear Earl Jacksboro,
I tried to send this personally, but it kept getting chucked back at me
I think that must be very true what you say about rules being accompanied by
'horror stories'. It is a very interesting idea that the knotcraft might
remain but the knotlore not. Someone must remember these stories...
By the way I don't think I was looking for stories where knots failed,
rather where they worked in the way many correspondents describe. I mean we
all have our own stories of when a transom or constrictor was of great value
and service, but I am hoping to find some where the service, you know, saved
a life, or something like that.
Thanks, and maybe speak again,
best wishes,
Charlie
----------
> Now that's interesting!
>
H. Paul Jacobson
> Firstly, there are two authorities on knots who are interesting and worth
> consulting. The first is English, called Geoffrey Budworth, he is the old
> Thames Lighterman I told you about....
Amazon.com lists 2 new books from Geoffrey that are due out this year -
one on fishing knots, and the other a more comprehensive 'encyclopedia':
"The Ultimate Encyclopedia of Knots & Ropework; Knots & Ropes for All
Pursuits from Sailing & Fishing to Camping & Climbing". I don't know if
these modest titles originate with the author or the publisher - I
suspect the latter.
> The other man is a Dutch professor, Peter van de Griend, whose book on the
> History and Science of Knots has just come out but is yet unavailable here.
I happen to have a copy of this book on hand (vol 11, Series on Knots and
Everything, World Scientific), checked out from the math library at my
university.
Paul
weaver
in witchcraft. Knots are tied in cords for a variety of symbolic
reasons, usually with the intention of binding one thing, or idea to
another. Knotted strings are sometimes used something like a rosary
(passed through the hands, pausing on each knot), with a chant or spell
being repeated with each one. Knots for spells are usually used in
groups of 3's. Knots are used in Handfastings (pagan marraiges) where
the hands of the couple are tied together (where "tying the knot" comes
from).
Peggy B.
Andre van der Salm
but more something like a myth. But anyway Mathew Walker is very well
known amoung knotters I think.
André van der Salm
Vlaardingen, The Netherlands
PS
Look also in Ashley's book of knots.
Olivier
tells it in is book : "Knotlore".
I have created a knot which I think to be a new one, I have registered it by
the I.G.K.T. as the "corkscrew knot"...another story!
Olivier..