Using the 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry
ROBB
I have considered a watchmakers lathe for wax carving . But I have
looked at some of the alternatives .
The price for a Homier lathe is $ 300.00 plus shiping. A milling
machine sold by the same company will cost $ 399.00 plus shiping.
Parts and scessories are available in the US.
The lathes and milling machines are all basically the same as they are
all currently built in the same factory in China.
I have all my precision tools left over from a former life as an
outside machineist. I know that these machines may require a tune up
before use. No problem there .
I am accustom to making or modifing my tools. I have researched
the suitibility of this size machine and they are seen as being a good
bargin.
Money is a consideration, I do not need a high production machine yet.
Now I need the input of some jewelers . While I expect to hear
from Abrasha as well as Peter Rowe. I would like to hear from other
members of this news group as well. Please help me understand why you
make the choices you do.
ROBB.
Peter W. Rowe
texec...@earthlink.net (ROBB) wrote:
>> Now I need the input of some jewelers . While I expect to hear
>>from Abrasha as well as Peter Rowe.
I'm not all that familier with the lathe you're mentioning. But from what i've
heard, the little Chinese tools can be reworked and tuned up to be decent
working machines. The ease of doing that, though, is questionable for some
folks. Sounds like you've got the experience to do it.
For my own use, I only use a lathe occasionally. I've got a Unimat combination
lathe and mill, and it mostly does what I need. Kinda (well, VERY) under
powered, and not as rigid as one might like. But if one's got lots of time to
spend, taking only very light cuts, one can get high precision work out of it.
The sherline lathe is slightly better for power, but too much of the thing, in
my opinion, is made of alloys other than steel. The rigidity suffers. I've
also got a sherline milling machine, which seems heavier than their lathe. Got
it hooked up to stepper motors for CNC control, which works, though slowly. It
too suffers from the rigidity/power limitations of a non-steel tool. But as I
said, I don't use it all that often.
Were I shopping for a lathe, I kinda think I'd be looking for an old used South
bend. The old style, you know, with leather drive belts, non-automatic change
gears, etc. World War 1 technology, but very high quality for the money..
Find one of those in good condition, and you've got a gem that will do very
fine work. Remember that just because you're doing small work for jewelery, you
don't necessarily need a smaller machine tool. Rigidity and precision are the
keys. many of the small lathes out there are hobby level tools, not precise
machine tools. And the little "jewelers" lathes you may have seen are often
watchmakers lathes, not really suited to more than virtually microscopic sized
work. And such work is often done actually under hand tool control, more the
way a wood lathe is used, than the type of tool holders used with most metal
lathes. Watchmakers lathes, with good collets, give you extremely precise
turning of very small items, but they take a good deal of skill to use, and
they're a bit specialized in purpose.
Abrasha, should he grace you with his opinion, uses lathes a lot more than I do,
and has a considerably nicer one. Go with his recommendations over mine.
Peter
Rob Kramer
> What is the usability of a 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry ?
> I have considered a watchmakers lathe for wax carving . But I have
> looked at some of the alternatives .
I don't own a 7x12 (ironically, here in Singapore you can't get them), but
I'd guess they'd be pretty good for most things jewelry-related you would
want to do on a lathe. Extreme precision isn't that important if you're
turning a ring or whatever.
In the US you can get relatively cheap watchmaker's lathes on eBay or at a
NAWCC mart which might be useful for wax. Even if it's too bust up to use
for watchmaking, it would still be fine for wax.. You wouldn't need many of
the $$$ accesories either, just a few wax chucks and perhaps a large size
collet or two if you want to make your own extension bits.
Did you check out www.mini-lathe.com for all sorts of modifications etc.?
Cheers!
Rob
Bob Edwards
wrote:
>What is the usability of a 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry ?
>I have considered a watchmakers lathe for wax carving . But I have
>looked at some of the alternatives .
>
> T<<snip>>
> I am accustom to making or modifing my tools. I have researched
>the suitibility of this size machine and they are seen as being a good
>bargin.
>Money is a consideration, I do not need a high production machine yet.
>
>
Robb:
First, if you haven't already done so, check out the minilathe users
group at Yahoo groups, as well as this page and links from it:
A google search on minilathe will turn up numerous others. I think a
fair summary of the "condition and useability" issue is that you are
more or less buying a pre-assembled kit of parts which has the
potential to be a decent small lathe, subject to the limitations of
small lathes in general. You might get lucky and get one that doesn't
require tuning, but don't count on it. However, you sound like you
have the experience to do it. People have found issues such as
tailstock offset, bad gibs, sloppy bolt holes, sand in the gearbox
(common), etc.
For wax working, once tuned up to give accurate results, it should do
fine. I have a slightly smaller lathe, a Toyo (Sakai) ML210 which I
use for wax work as well as metal turning, and it does very well on
wax. I don't see why the Chinese mini wouldn't perform similarly. You
are probably aware that most (all?) small lathes suffer from rigidity
and power problems turning hard metals, that limit them to light cuts
and slow work progress.
Regards,
Bob Edwards, GG, CBJT
Chromis Designs
Washington, DC
Dave Arens
>What is the usability of a 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry ?
>I have considered a watchmakers lathe for wax carving . But I have
>looked at some of the alternatives .
>
It all depends on the design & type of jewelery you intend to make. In
my book, a lathe is a worthwhile tool for any endeavor. You don't need
it all thje time, but there are times when it makes a job easier or even
doable. The same can be said for a mill.
With the advent of CAD/CAM & numeric control (NC) machining & machinery
today, I'm sure we'll see more machine tools used in the jewelry
industry. A look in many of the machining magazines will show quite a
number of companies producing NC addons on NC machines. One good
magazine is 'Home Shop Machinist'. One good US supplier that produces
affordable smaller sized machines in both NC & manual models is
Sherline. I think they have a web site at sherline.com.
Dave
Abrasha
especially http://www.cctrap.com/~varmint/alath.htm
Basically, even though I do not own such a lathe and have no personal experience
with it, I suggest you do not get one, unless you are willing to spend many
hours trying to turn this thing into a usable tool, because according to
multiple reports, they are practically useless when new.
Check in the newsgroup rec.crafts.metalworking. An excellent newsgroup where a
lot of people with machining experience hang out. Ask around over there. Take
their opinions seriously. You might even be able to pick up a used one from one
of them, because sometimes they seem to want to get rid of the ones they buy as
fast as they can.
Depending on what part of the country you live in (I assume you live in the US),
you may be able to pick up a good to very good used American made lathe for just
a bit more than you would pay for one of those Chinese pieces of junk. And you
won't have to spend many hours fixing it to make it workable.
There are many reputable used tool dealers around. Literally thousand of very
good South Bend, Clausing, Sheldon, Atlas, LeBlond, Raglan and Logan lathes are
sitting around idle, because they are no longer state of the art, and considered
"useless" in the industry.
Or if you want something great, try to find a used Myford Super 7
(http://www.myford.com/). This will be hard to almost impossible, because they
are so good. They are the cream of the crop. Many used ones of this brand can
be found in England. Myford themselves sell used ones.
http://www.myford.com/html/pre-owned.htm
Another great site for research is http://www.lathes.co.uk/ The site has a
section with lathes for sale and wanted at http://www.lathes.co.uk/page3.html
Unfortunately almost all of the lathes there are in England, but often exporting
can be arranged. Many Myfords to drool over.
A lathe you may want to consider is a used Emco Compact 5.
http://www.lathes.co.uk/emco/page2.html It is a little bit smaller than the
Chinese 7 x 12, but not much. And even though this is not a great lathe the
quality is definitely a great deal better.
BTW, I have the TOS precision lathe, http://www.lathes.co.uk/tos/index.html And
I imported it from the Czech Republic.
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Dan Mitchell
(3.5" x 8") which I use for larger watch bits & clock repair. Since I
started doing jewelry (very new at this) I have frequently pondered the
latter tool's application in jewelry making. I find the Sherline to be a
very nice, well made precision small lathe with many accessories (including
the ability to use WW (watchmaking) collets), possible milling setups, etc.
The basic lathe is $460. Sherline's web site is http://www.sherline.com.
If you're interested in a watchmaking lathe Ebay is a good source, also
check out Tom Mister's site http://www.dashto.org/, from whom I've bought a
number of watchmaking tools over the years.
Dan
"ROBB" <texec...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:viruavgcuqa4ua061...@4ax.com...
Abrasha
>
> Were I shopping for a lathe, I kinda think I'd be looking for an old used South
> bend.
Very good advice. If you're going to have to rebuild the lathe (the Chinese 7 x
12) anyway to make it into a useful tool, you're better off starting with the
workhorse of American industry of the 30's and 40's and end up with a fantastic
lathe.
> The old style, you know, with leather drive belts, non-automatic change
> gears, etc.
You can find many with automatic gear boxes.
> World War 1 technology, but very high quality for the money..
Too old. You can get very good South Bends from the 30's and 40's and even
newer.
There are many sites online from people having restores lathes. Some have done
exceptional work. Tkae a look at the "FrankenLathe" at
http://web.dimebank.com/FrankenLathe.html
And if you want to see the "non plus ultra" in lathe restoration and some of the
finest engraving to bbot take a look at Steve Lindsay's site at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/
His shop is imaculate and the restoration he has done on his 1930's Hardinge
lathe, 1920's Hardings Cataract horizontal mill, and 1940's Hardinge TL 5C 9"
split bed toolroom lathe are mind blowing. Check out the hand scraping on that
last one. Something to aspire to.
His work BTW is something to behold also. A true master! Check it out while
you're on the site.
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Abrasha
>
> ROBB wrote:
>
> > What is the usability of a 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry ?
> > I have considered a watchmakers lathe for wax carving . But I have
> > looked at some of the alternatives .
>
> I don't own a 7x12 (ironically, here in Singapore you can't get them), but
> I'd guess they'd be pretty good for most things jewelry-related you would
> want to do on a lathe.
they are not "pretty good" for anything.
> Extreme precision isn't that important if you're
> turning a ring or whatever.
Extreme precision, whatever that means, is not, but precision is. That's what
you get a lathe for. If you don't need the precision, you can do it better by
hand.
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W. Rowe
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>> The old style, you know, with leather drive belts, non-automatic change
>>> gears, etc.
>>
>>You can find many with automatic gear boxes.
>>
Agreed, but being a bit newer, they then are usually a bit more money. and I
find that unless I'm doing threading, I often am happy to just leave the gearbox
on a decent rate for a fine finishing cut, and do any faster cuts just by hand.
But that's me. Others will have other needs. it also depends on lot on what
you're turning. A ring size item is a very different job to hand crank the feed
wheel over and over with, than is, say, a ring MANDREL.
>>> World War 1 technology, but very high quality for the money..
>>
>>Too old. You can get very good South Bends from the 30's and 40's and even
>>newer.
Agreed, again. the single digit was a typo. I'd meant to type WW2, which is,
indeed, the 30s and 40s. If I were shopping for an older lathe than that, then
likely it would be a good deal older, would be a ornamental, not a machine
lathe, would no doubt have several more decimal places in the price, and would
have maybe been made by a guy named Holtzappfel (I'm sure that's the wrong
spelling, but I'm too lazy to go look it up). But, sadly, I don't currently
have that kind of money in my toys budget... Definately cool tools. A second
choice might be the simpler, but somewhat similar principal, rose engine lathe
to go with my little straight line machine..
Peter
Abrasha
>
> On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 19:36:28 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
> <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>
> >>> The old style, you know, with leather drive belts, non-automatic change
> >>> gears, etc.
> >>
> >>You can find many with automatic gear boxes.
> >>
>
> Agreed, but being a bit newer, they then are usually a bit more money.
Not necessarily. When I was shopping around for a lathe, I went to many
auctions at san Francisco Bay Area High Schools, that were getting rid of their
machine shops. Very well outfitted machine shops I might add. Many of the
machines, still had Navy ID plates attached to them.
You see, many of these machines came from the local Oakland area Navy ship yards
that had built the Liberty ships during WW II, and when the war was over these
lathes and milling machines found their way into the machine shops of the local
high school.
And then the computer craze started, and nobody wanted to take shop anymore, so
the shops sat empty, and the tools were starting to rust. So most all of the
High Schools started selling off their shops. I saw many South Bend, LeBlond,
Monarch and Clausing lathes and Bridgeports milling machines go for pennies on
the dollar. I never got one, because I found them too beat up (they might have
been fine), and my skill too little to restore one.
> and I
> find that unless I'm doing threading, I often am happy to just leave the gearbox
> on a decent rate for a fine finishing cut, and do any faster cuts just by hand.
> But that's me.
Indeed. You are clearly not a machinist. Once you have worked on a lathe with
a gear box you don't want to go back. Mine has manual gears, and like you I
have it set on one set of gears all the time, which works fine for 99% of the
work I am doing on my lathe. But I would much rather have a gear box.
> Others will have other needs. it also depends on lot on what
> you're turning. A ring size item is a very different job to hand crank the feed
> wheel over and over with, than is, say, a ring MANDREL.
Automatic feed is not enough for this, you also need a taper attachment.
>
> >>> World War 1 technology, but very high quality for the money..
> >>
> >>Too old. You can get very good South Bends from the 30's and 40's and even
> >>newer.
>
> Agreed, again. the single digit was a typo. I'd meant to type WW2, which is,
> indeed, the 30s and 40s. If I were shopping for an older lathe than that, then
> likely it would be a good deal older, would be a ornamental,
http://www.gordonfradley.com/galleryfour.html
> not a machine
> lathe, would no doubt have several more decimal places in the price, and would
> have maybe been made by a guy named Holtzappfel (I'm sure that's the wrong
> spelling, but I'm too lazy to go look it up).
Holtzapffel
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeharr/holtzros.htm
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W. Rowe
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>
>>> and I
>>> find that unless I'm doing threading, I often am happy to just leave the gearbox
>>> on a decent rate for a fine finishing cut, and do any faster cuts just by hand.
>>> But that's me.
>>
>>Indeed. You are clearly not a machinist. Once you have worked on a lathe with
>>a gear box you don't want to go back. Mine has manual gears, and like you I
>>have it set on one set of gears all the time, which works fine for 99% of the
>>work I am doing on my lathe. But I would much rather have a gear box.
>>
I'm pretty good with machine tools when I want to be, but you're right, my heart
is not that of a machinist. Often, in machining, I'm making up the dimensions
I'm working towards, as i go, from what looks best. Again, not the heart of a
machinist. But if I need to, I can both read a a blueprint and machine a part
from one... And then, yes, i'd probably want a gearbox... Gearboxes certainly
do make the lathe more versatile for those who'd use them. but
maintenance/cleaning, lubricating them then takes a bit more time too. Of
course, if I were offered two lathes, one with, the other without, the gearbox,
i'd take the gearbox. What i've seen for sale, though, is usually cheaper
without. The situation you saw with the school shops, is one I'd not
encountered.
>>> Others will have other needs. it also depends on lot on what
>>> you're turning. A ring size item is a very different job to hand crank the feed
>>> wheel over and over with, than is, say, a ring MANDREL.
>>
>>Automatic feed is not enough for this, you also need a taper attachment.
Or a tailstock that can be offset. A few lathes do this. I had an old
Sears/Atlas lathe once that allowed that, and it was very handy for custom made
tapered mandrels. Much simpler to run than a taper attachment, and a cheaper
solution. Trickier to use, though, I think. At least mine was. Getting the
offset to just the right amount was kinda trial and error, since the markings on
the thing weren't too precise... And it does then usually mean you're driving
the work with a traditional lathe dog, rather than a chuck. Noisier...
>>
>>http://www.gordonfradley.com/galleryfour.html
>>
AHH. Thanks. A bit of eye candy for desert! Nice site. I wish I had the time
and energy to devote to building such a machine, but I don't. Which is also
probably why I'll never buy such a machine either. Takes long to fully master
it's use. I'd have to quit as the group moderator in order to find the time..
>>http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/jeharr/holtzros.htm\
Hmm. Beautiful machine. But that's not quite like the Holtzapffel ornamental
lathes I've seen. Somehow different, though I'm not sure why. I wonder if this
one is just a rose lathe, without the additonal ornamental capabilities such as
the seperatly driven spindle cutters... Dunno.
Actually, if I really did try to buy a rose engine, I'd probably have to settle
for one of the small american made machine from the turn of the century through
about the 30s. Both the Hall and Field companies made em that I've seen, and
I'm sure there were others too. My straight line engine is also from one such,
though it's not got a name plate, so I've no clue who actually made it. The
small american made rose lathes are usually a lot cheaper than what I'd really
drool over, a nice Plante, or Leonhardt, and a little easier to find this side
of the atlantic. Even then, they're in the 3-5 thousand range, I think...
Gold machinery had a few of them even on ebay, sometime last year...
Peter
"Alex Bobotek <alex@bobotek"<alex@bobotek
and a few other uses. It's like the 7x12, except the bed is 4"
shorter. For my jewelry purposes, it's been plenty large.
For typical ring-making wax work, it's been great. This is about the
least demanding lathe application imaginable: just about any lathe
would work.
For tool making and shaping non-precious materials, its power and
rigidity are a plus when compared to the Taig and Sherline. My chief
complaint is that there's some play under load in the cross and
compound slides. Getting rid of this would take (in the case of my
lathe) more than adjusting -- some lapping is needed. It's not a
South Bend.
It gets turned on once a month, and suits my light-duty needs just
fine.
Regards,
alex@<nospam>bobotek.net
On Wed, 30 Apr 2003 06:33:56 GMT, texec...@earthlink.net (ROBB)
wrote:
>What is the usability of a 7x12 mini-lathe for jewelry ?