Supplier or pre-mixed niello?
Tom Kreyche
resources please let me know.
I've read about the use of niello in seveal books and would like to
experiment with it but would prefer not to mix it myself. I expect someone
sells ingots or ground material but haven't been able to find any online
sources.
thanks,
Tom
David L. Huffman
I've made lots of niello, and I can post references to sources for the
formulas, but I doubt you'll find anyone manufacturing it. Nearly all the
neillo formulas I've encountered contain lead, so I suspect there are
liability concerns as well as little enough demand for the product as yet to
convince anyone to produce and market it.
David L. Huffman
"Tom Kreyche" <tkre...@well.com> wrote in message
news:9touttoohsssjb0vu...@4ax.com...
ted.f...@virgin.net
Hi David,
Im in the UK and dont have such qualms about making Niello for a fellow
craftsman. Ive probably got the formula around somewhere but if you have
a simple one post it here or to me and Ill have a go.
This liability question you have problems with in the
USA, seen from from our point of view from over here to be quite out of
proportion to the risks of living life generally.. Anyone using any
hazardous substance like pumping gasoline or blowing up a tyre with
compressed air line is much more at risk than from a gram or 2 of
niello.
It looks like the USA has a bad case of paranoia.
Ted Frater living life dangerously as a craftsman for the past 35 years
by anyones standards and enjoying it.
Peter W. Rowe
wrote:
>>This liability question you have problems with in the
>>USA, seen from from our point of view from over here to be quite out of
>>proportion to the risks of living life generally.. Anyone using any
>>hazardous substance like pumping gasoline or blowing up a tyre with
>>compressed air line is much more at risk than from a gram or 2 of
>>niello.
>>It looks like the USA has a bad case of paranoia.
Ted, I think you're overstating the case, at least as concerns the post in
question. Niello contains lead, and the concerns using it will be similar to
those using lead based enamels, which are also only in limited availability.
The liability concerns are not generally for the craftsperson, I think, but
rather for the suitability of the finished work for some situations, such as
food safety. The EU has similar regulations in many areas. Consider, for
example, the regulations concerning nickle based white gold. You guys are a lot
stricter on that than we are...
I suspect that David's first guess, that Niello isn't commercially produced
mostly for lack of interest/market, is the more likely. It's easy enough for a
craftsperson to make a little if needed, but that doesn't mean it's fun to make
in large quantities for commercial distribution. For small amounts, do it
outdoors and the noxious sulphur fumes aren't such a big deal. In larger
amounts, on a regular basis, the stuff is rather a pain in the rear. You'd need
fume hoods or really good ventilation, and the means to keep your neighbors
happy with the smell of your business, just for starters...
My own reaction to someone wishing to experiment with niello, but wishing to buy
the stuff, is different. I find myself wondering what's the point of working
with it, if you didn't make it. Making the stuff, and playing with the
different formulas to understand the material, is what such experimentation is
about. If you only want to play with the look, black epoxy or other black
inlays aren't that much different, and a lot easier. In a sense, this is
similar to a number of techniques we play with these days. Consider
granulation. Twenty years ago, there were basic instructions and information
out there for doing it, but nothing on the step by step level, along with ready
made granules all set for you to use. The people who experimented with
granulation then, had to work out alloys, temps, technique, formulas, etc. They
had the basic ideas to guide them, but they had to work out the details. When
they had done so, after considerable research, they fully understood the
process, the techniques, and the potentials, both in terms of the
science/technology aspects of what they were doing, but also fully in terms of
the aesthetic qualities and potentials. Nowadays, someone takes a quick
workshop, buys some grains, and puts them on something, and thinks they're
experts in granulation. The sad part of this is, they have no clue as to how
little they really know about it, yet they represent themselves as then being
fluent in the technique and knowledgeable in the subject. While they spent far
less time to aquire the information they do have, it's just not quite the same.
It's sorta like buying a book, and reading the first pages, then skipping the
middle, and going to the last pages to see how it ends. Or buying a book,
buying the cliffs notes, and reading only the cliff notes and thinking you know
the book...
I'd personally think the original poster would do a lot better for themselves to
buy some sulphur (druggists sell it), take some scrap silver, copper, and lead
(fishing weights work), beg borrow or buy a copy of McCreights Metals Technic,
which has wonderful instructions from the late Phillip Fike, and actually make
the stuff. It's easily more than half the experience of the material.
Peter
Carl or Rebecca Downey
requiring ammonia to 'set'.
sorry that's all I have on it.
Carl
1 Lucky Texan
David L. Huffman
because they have medical conditions that make the sulfur fumes very
dangerous for them. But I don't want to get into production. I learned
about niello from years of working with Phillip Fike and his formula is a
good one and pretty much the same one I use on the rare occasion that I make
the stuff. A few ounces of niello can go a long way, and working outside,
it's not too bad as long as you don't stick your nose in the stuff and any
breezes are blowing the fumes away from you. There are also formulas in
Oppi Untracht's Metal Techniques for Craftsmen and Herbert Maryon's
Metalwork & Enamelling that I've tried. As for the liability issue, I just
figured if any major manufacturer of jewelry supplies ever did take a look
at production possibilities, they would have figured the market was too
small to face possible issues of environmental compliance, worker safety,
possible end-user suits from skin reactions and the like, etc. I suspect
we're going to see a time when one can no longer get solders with cadmium in
them. I know United stopped making the stuff. But really, it's not that
scary to make niello. Some of the stuff used for gun barrel coloring is far
deadlier, like mercury, selenium and the like, all water soluble (easily
absorbed) too. Don't think I'd want niello on eating utensils, but it's a
great decorative element. I don't think it has an equivalent, really. It's
different than enamels and resins. It's metallic, looks like hematite.
David L. Huffman
"Peter W. Rowe" <PWR...@home.com> wrote in message
news:ikv8uts9ulpffhdt1...@4ax.com...
Bert
>I agree with Peter. I've made a few batches that I've given to friends
>because they have medical conditions that make the sulfur fumes very
>dangerous for them. ...
>A few ounces of niello can go a long way, and working outside,
>it's not too bad as long as you don't stick your nose in the stuff and any
>breezes are blowing the fumes away from you.
FYI, I was looking up something else in Rossol's "The Artist's
Complete Health and Safety Guide" and ran across an entry for niello:
" Lead poisoning can result from inhaling lead fumes during heating or
lead sulfide during grinding of the mixture. All procedures should be
done in local exhaust. A proper dust mask should be worn when dealing
with the powder and excellent hygiene should be practiced."
Bert
Tom Kreyche
out that Karl Fischer in Germany does sell it, but I'm not yet sure of the
exact form..whether it is wire or powdered...am checking into it.
I'm doing some metal sculpture and want to try fusion inlay techniques. It's
going to be outdoors and needs robust finishes...not paint of any kind.
Fusion inlay is appealing because I have a fancy engraving/routing machine
and can easily machine precise lines/curves in the base metal, which is free
machining brass. And I have lots of experience soldering. Several books
recommend using hard silver solder as a fusion inlay, and using niello as a
contrasting black inlay. Since niello's melting point is lower than hard
silver solder it can be fused after the silver solder.
Another alternative is to use my router to machine the lines, then use a
hand tool to undercut the slots and traditional mechanical inlay techniques.
I've read Oppi's recipes for niello and would like to be able to experiment
with various mixtures (in my youth I confess I enjoyed playing with volatile
chemicals). Unfortunately I don't currently have all the equipment and good
place to do experimentation, so purchasing niello seems a reasonable
alternative.
Tom