So, here's the (hopefully) next topic of debate
m3rma1d
almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more
& more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what
they're stepping into?
I've never been to Tucson, but I regretfully decided I won't be going
anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of blending
in with a mush-head like this*:
http://www.artjewelrymag.com/art/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=18133&REPLY_ID=149661#149661
As you'll see I tried to warn them but.... I felt it was a waste of time to
even bother.
Good god.
Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned
veterans" who're pissed off about all this. What can I say, I love pissed
off people <3
*And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's
more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
I can live with that.
-- m3rma1d
--
To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)
jim redden
Even if the Jewelry raze is just a flash in the pan for whom ever, It is
simply a statement that the ( bead stringer / artist ) is making about what
they find attractive.
The Noobs will mostly fade away, but a select few will move on to bigger and
better, or at least try!
I'm a noob. I have many many kilos of beads. And I sell alot of jewelry,
sure very basic ( but I'm learning ) I started with making a few things for
the wife, they I started to wonder where beads come from. And a couple of
grand later I make beads. whick led to fusing, then to what do I do with all
this stuff. that led to wire wrapping, then cutting cabs, and not to
starting to facet stones.
I tried metal clay to form mountings and didn't like it, do next is the
basics of silver.
So before you hammer to hard on the noobs and if they want to take in a BIG
show and spend money, maybe direct and help guide us, not with your secrets,
but the basics.
There are several (ARTISTS) I'll skip names, if you can't figure who I'm
taling about your in the wrong group ( see noob ), who give lots if advise,
and guidence.
And just to let you know I'm not a bored housewife, I'm male/49 and work for
GM building trucks.
Oh and I do have a clue, a small one, but one all the same.
And last if you want to be a tin god ( silver/gold or what ever) don't waste
the bandwidth, a few of us come in here to learn from true artists
Jim Redden
J.Redden Design
glass...@comcast.net
Beadgasms for all
"m3rma1d" <m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote in message
news:a7hbt1p4vu3rff318...@4ax.com...
HareBall
news:a7hbt1p4vu3rff318...@4ax.com:
> What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now
> becoming almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as
> scrapbooking, and more & more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson
> in Feb. with no CLUE what they're stepping into?
I'll step into this. Many a bored housewife are probably as talented, if
not more so, than you or anyone else on this group.
If you don't like what they are doing, leave them alone. They don't need
your approval to make art.
As someone said long before I was born, "Beauty is in the eye of the
beholder." I personally don't know what anyone sees in Abrasha's stuff,
but someone out there besides him, must like it or he would have stayed
home in Germany.
>
> I've never been to Tucson, but I regretfully decided I won't be going
> anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of
> blending in with a mush-head like this*:
> http://www.artjewelrymag.com/art/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPI
> C_ID=18133&REPLY_ID=149661#149661
>
> As you'll see I tried to warn them but.... I felt it was a waste of
> time to even bother.
>
> Good god.
>
> Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the
> "seasoned veterans" who're pissed off about all this. What can I say,
> I love pissed off people <3
>
> *And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really,
> it's more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob,
> but I guess I can live with that.
>
>
> -- m3rma1d
> --
> To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
> www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
> www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+
> months ago!)
>
>
--
Larry S.
TS 52
Abrasha
> What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now becoming
> almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more
> & more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what
> they're stepping into?
>
Don't worry too much about the bored housewives in Tucson. They won't
have the credentials to even be admitted in any of the major shows
there. Nobody will let them in without proper credentials. They will
be welcome at any of the many sideshows all over town.
What are proper credentials you might ask?
- JBT number
- Proof of membership in AGTA, AGS, ASA, DCA, ICA, IDCA, ISA, MJSA.
- A letter from an AGTA member indicating that they are their wholesale
client.
If they do not meet the above qualifications for admission they must
provide one of the following:
- Copy of their business license or tax exempt certificate clearly
demonstrating industry affiliation.
- Copies of itemized invoices (totaling $5,000) from three different
suppliers of jewelry, precious metal or colored gemstones for purchase
made within the past year. Each invoice must show multiple items.
> I've never been to Tucson, but I regretfully decided I won't be going
> anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of blending
> in with a mush-head like this*:
> http://www.artjewelrymag.com/art/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=18133&REPLY_ID=149661#149661
Too bad, I would have liked to have met you there.
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
khce...@yahoo.com
hate to think that anyone would have had to waste their time
telling/teaching you anything.
Yes, some people come across as unfortunately ignorant in their
questions. Maybe they are. But does that mean you can't ever do
anything new, or ask questions? Would be a sad, boring world if that
were the case. And we'd never have phenomenon like Grandma Moses or
other artists, if you weren't allowed to try something new later in
life. You can't fight ignorance without learning, and some people
can't learn without asking questions. The net is filled with different
abilities - not everyone can learn by themselves.
I would be more reluctant to go to Tucson for fear of meeting someone
with YOUR opinions, than to meet enthusiastic people who know nothing.
What better way to learn myself, than to teach someone else!
Karin
(probably a newbie by your standards, possibly bored, but not a
housewife.)
Kendall Davies
>>more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
>>I can live with that.
So maybe you are a snob, perhaps we could have the chance to see some of
your work then we could see if we wanted to live with it.
Kendall
[[moderator's note: See Mr. Davie's next post in this thread, after he notices
the needed links to see her work... pwr]]
Kendall Davies
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)
Sorry I only noticed these links after I sent my earlier posting. -
Unforgivable?
For what its worth I liked the chains in the 'new' section but I'm not sure
that the soldering on the end caps couldn't have been done better.
Serious question - Why do so you hate newbies so much? Sure they all ask the
same questions and most of them will never do anything very new or
interesting and a lot of them think they're really clever for doing the
simple things fairly well. but so what! That's what most people who are
interested in 'creative' things are like. That's what most of the people who
buy the work of creative people are like. We may or may not like that but we
do need them. I know I do.
I've read my original 'bored' posting again and I can see that it could seem
as if I was criticising people for disagreeing and arguing. If I created
that impression then I apologise for not making myself clear. I liked the
string too. There were parts that I found interesting and informative and I
found myself laughing out loud at some of the responses.
I only started to find it boring when it became obvious that the postings
had more to do with being insulting and unpleasant just for the hell of it.
I find that kind of stuff boring and uninteresting because the interesting
bits of the discussion/argument usually get lost in all the flack.
So I'm sorry Carol L and I'm sorry m3rma1d, I think there should be strong
hard hitting argument and discussion in this newsgroup but I also think that
as the unpleasantness increases the useful stuff decreases and the whole
thing descends into personal abuse and I've all that stuff before.
But please be kind to simple questions. If don't want to give a helpful
answer, fine, there is no obligation but a slap in the face answer says more
about your own state of mind than anything else.
I've posted a few questions here and had good useful answers from people who
seemed to know what they were talking about. I got a few stinkers too. This
was sometimes because the responder hadn't understood the question I was
asking.
I'm glad I got the good responses first and the few aggressive ones later or
I might have given up this newsgroup and the amazing craft of
silversmithing. We, me, you, nobody should slap someone down just because
they ask a banal (in our lofty view, or was it snobish m3rma1d?) question.
Give them a hand or leave them alone, pick on someone your ownsize, or
better still go and watch Jerry Springer or George Bush or Tony Blair (or
any politician of your choice) and get a lesson in real stupid talk.
Kendall
twocr...@yahoo.com
materials, I'm often asking the patient pro's on this group the same
questions they have answered before. I try to look for my answers in
books and online first - but sometimes the questions are so specific
they need a 'live' expert.
But like most people trying their hand at jewelry, I have experience in
other feilds I can draw on. As a (heavy industry)machine shop worker, I
used all manner of equipment and techniques that a traditional jeweler
would not come across. Let's not assume that asking questions and
trying things out will not yeild results that would benifit all. Yes,
there are ways of doing things that smarter people than me have devised
for good reasons. But there are new technologies emerging -
liquidmetal, vapor grown diamonds or cutting tool coatings to name a
few that somebody - maybe a newbie - will have access to and try out
because he or she 'doesn't know any better' and maybe take us all a
step forward.
It may start with beads and end up somewhere quite different - so let's
get as many people from as many different walks of life to join us -
bored housewives included.
Hope that didn't end up too preachy : )
Marilee J. Layman
<m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote:
>What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now becoming
>almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more
>& more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what
>they're stepping into?
>
>I've never been to Tucson, but I regretfully decided I won't be going
>anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of blending
>in with a mush-head like this*:
>http://www.artjewelrymag.com/art/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=18133&REPLY_ID=149661#149661
>
>As you'll see I tried to warn them but.... I felt it was a waste of time to
>even bother.
They won't be able to get housing anywhere near this close to the
time, anyway.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman
Marilee J. Layman
<Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote:
>"m3rma1d" <m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote in
>news:a7hbt1p4vu3rff318...@4ax.com:
>
>> What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now
>> becoming almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as
>> scrapbooking, and more & more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson
>> in Feb. with no CLUE what they're stepping into?
>
>I'll step into this. Many a bored housewife are probably as talented, if
>not more so, than you or anyone else on this group.
I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry
forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not
very talented.
Marilee J. Layman
<m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote:
>What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now becoming
>almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more
>& more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what
>they're stepping into?
I think it will die down just like cross-stitch did.
Andrew Werby
entering the field in whatever capacity, even bored housewives (a vanishing
species hereabouts). After all, who is better prepared to appreciate real
artistry than those who have tried it themselves? How many people would
watch baseball, if they had never tried playing it? It takes having tried to
make that amazing catch (pun intended) to understand what's gone into it. In
an era when even educated people have little or no conception of how the
things that surround them are made, the fact that some people are beginning
to experience the satisfaction (and frustration) of making things by hand is
an encouraging sign. I don't think they'll take over a significant portion
of the market from the real pros, and they may well add to the pool of those
who are equipped to understand what goes into one of our miniature
masterpieces.]
Andrew Werby
www.unitedartworks.com
"m3rma1d" <m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote in message
news:a7hbt1p4vu3rff318...@4ax.com...
m3rma1d
Get over it!
I wasn't saying no one had talent from being new, just wondering what some
of the NON-n00bs thought of our invasion, KHRYST!
m3rma1d
>Don't worry too much about the bored housewives in Tucson. They won't
>have the credentials to even be admitted in any of the major shows
>there. Nobody will let them in without proper credentials. They will
>be welcome at any of the many sideshows all over town.
<snip>
Abrasha, yer the only person who even answered my real questions.
Could you BE any more perfect?? <3
>>I regretfully decided I won't be going
>> anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of
>> blending
>> in.......
>Too bad, I would have liked to have met you there.
OK I'LL GO, I'LL GO--YOU TWISTED MY ARM!!!
Prolly not till next year though, 'cos of the whole time-crunch thing now.
DAMN, I shoula posted this months ago...... ARGH!
:-)
"Séimí mac Liam"
news:qalct1dqv4a5d8k7b...@4ax.com:
> - A letter from an AGTA member indicating that they are their
>wholesale client.
>
Will a similar letter from a MJSA member serve?
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
Al Balmer
<m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote:
>What does everyone think about the fact that making jewelry is now becoming
>almost as trendy among bored housewives & the like as scrapbooking, and more
>& more n00bs each year are showing up in Tucson in Feb. with no CLUE what
>they're stepping into?
>
>I've never been to Tucson, but I regretfully decided I won't be going
>anytime soon (prolly a few years until this fad passes) for fear of blending
>in with a mush-head like this*:
>http://www.artjewelrymag.com/art/community/forum/topic.asp?page=-1&TOPIC_ID=18133&REPLY_ID=149661#149661
>
>As you'll see I tried to warn them but.... I felt it was a waste of time to
>even bother.
>
>Good god.
>
>Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned
>veterans" who're pissed off about all this. What can I say, I love pissed
>off people <3
I guess I wouldn't describe my feeling as pissed off. There's
certainly some wonderment at the number of beady folks nowadays, and a
strong desire to avoid any contact with them. Fortunately, they're
relatively easy to avoid, so please don't give up on Tucson on their
account.
I'll definitely spend at least a couple of days in Tucson this year. I
love to go and look, and occasionally I even buy something from a
dealer who's new and doesn't know he's supposed to triple his usual
prices <g>. In general, though, I only buy rough, hand specimens,
supplies, and such, and my motto is "Go to Tucson to look, and
Quartzsite to buy."
>
>*And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's
>more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
>I can live with that.
>
>
>-- m3rma1d
--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
Abrasha
> Abrasha <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote in
> news:qalct1dqv4a5d8k7b...@4ax.com:
>
>
>>- A letter from an AGTA member indicating that they are their
>>wholesale client.
>>
>
>
> Will a similar letter from a MJSA member serve?
>
Probably not, but you could call the AGTA and ask them.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
HareBall
news:s5udt11d746pjonr3...@4ax.com:
I didn't say the average, I said some.
HareBall
> On Tue, 24 Jan 2006 09:42:31 GMT, HareBall
To add to my last post. What does being bored have to do with having
talent. By definition talent is an inherant ability to do something. It has
nothing to do with actually using it.
m3rma1d
>For what its worth I liked the chains in the 'new' section but I'm not sure
>that the soldering on the end caps couldn't have been done better.
They're a shitty pair of end caps, and that's 'cos they were the very first
pair I made more than a year ago now. I'm too BUSY WORKING on new stuff to
take new PICS of stuff all the time as I get better at it. Hence WHY my
webpages are so negleccted, and WHY I put the disclaimers with the links.
(HELLO!?)
I am working on a tutorial for making the end caps for some folks who wanted
to know (Which feels fat-headded to say, but you'll have to take it up with
the folks who wanted it, I suppose)
>Serious question - Why do so you hate newbies so much?
I really DON'T, for, if you'd read my other post, I AM a newbie as well
(well, I've been playing in beads since I was 7 or 8, so about 20 years
now... but as far as metalsmithing goes, only about 2 & 1/2 years.)
What I hate, I suppose, is newbies who just don't even TRY to find things
out for themselves before asking the same tired questions that can be
brought up in google or a good book in less than a second's time.
What I haste worse than that is newbies who are so fucking scared to fuck
something up, they just want to ask and discuss it, and simply won't allow
themselves to DIVE IN HEAD FIRST, FUCK SOMETHING UP, AND TEACH THEMSELVES
SOMETHING.
It's the best way to learn... I'm SO proud of my scrap pile, which some
people don't understand. I see it as a 3 pound box of very valuble lessons
learned.
(I really should send it for refining, though :-P)
Yes, I'm a n00b. And I teach myself everything. B.F.D. It's not so hard to
do it quietly, thoughtfully, and respectfully.
-- m3rma1d
--
Abrasha
> Abrasha wrote:
>
>
>>Don't worry too much about the bored housewives in Tucson. They won't
>>have the credentials to even be admitted in any of the major shows
>>there. Nobody will let them in without proper credentials. They will
>>be welcome at any of the many sideshows all over town.
>
>
> <snip>
>
> Abrasha, yer the only person who even answered my real questions.
> Could you BE any more perfect?? <3
>
>
>
Uh, a full head of hair would be nice.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Martha Hughes
On Tue, 24 Jan 2006, m3rma1d wrote:
>
> Discuss! Please? I'd especially love to hear from some of the "seasoned
> veterans" who're pissed off about all this. What can I say, I love pissed
> off people <3
>
> *And I don't mean to spout off such a personal attack on them really, it's
> more an attack on the ignorance as a whole... Maybe I'm a snob, but I guess
> I can live with that.
>
What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to
their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem
with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did
you learn your craft?
By the way, I'm not a bored housewife, who is into scrapbooking. I
just like jewelry and didn't like what I could afford and couldn't afford
what I liked. I don't consider myself an artist - I'm not that
pretentious. But I don't like to be put down because I'm not a classically
trained artist. However, I have paid good morning for the knowledge that
I'm gaining.
Marilee J. Layman
Actually, you said "many."
HareBall
<SNIPPED>
>>>
>>> I strongly disagree with this. I'm active in some beading/jewelry
>>> forums and I can tell you that the average newbie to jewelry is not
>>> very talented.
>>
>>I didn't say the average, I said some.
>
> Actually, you said "many."
Ok, what is your definition of many? Can it not be less than average. It
could in my definition. Especially if there are extreme amounts of people.
Some of you need to get off of you high horse and remember where you were
when you started. Like someone else said where did you start out at. Did
you know everything when you started? Ignorance is only a lack of
knowledge, not the same as stupidity. We are all ignorant on some subjects.
Like I may not know as much as you about making jewelry, but I bet I can
show you many things about electrical work.
Ted Frater
the answer is
the same place and way as newbies have to get them today.
Also I dont see the problem of ignorance as something to be erradicated.
I dont owe the world a living nor does the world owe me one
If anythig has been done before then the knowhow is out there for the
finding. Looking at this in detail,
1. they went to jewellry school wherever that might be,
or2.
they did a PROPER search for the knowhow they wanted to find out about
or3,
they served a proper apprenticeship with a master,
the thouble with most folks to day, is there not taught how to think,
or to put it bluntly
the dont know how to ask the right questions.
Jewellery is just one skill set like many other.
yiou can read it up till you look like a jeweller, but
till you have practiced the skills and mastered the techniques by
trial as well as error, you wont get anywhere.
whats so annoying to us veterans is the newbe that is too lazy to do
the simplest of his her own research and expects us to tell them how to
do the simplest of tasks that 5 mins of research in a book will give the
answer.
Its presumtious of the newbe to expect someone whos time is worth many
times more than the newbe.s to deal with trivial requests.
were professionals, like others,whose time can be worth many hundres of
dollars an hour.
would you expect your lawyer, accountaht, doctor dentist or other
professional to give his time to someone thats thinks the world owes
them the knowhow?
No,
ive written this before here a no of times.
If you can show that youve made an effort to find out and due to
whatever circumstances you havnt, then most of us will be happy to
point you in the right direction.
and to comment on the original posting in this thread,
So bored?
What you write shows how and what you think.
jim redden
He is so colorful in what he says, must be ex navy!
Jim
Beadgasms for all
"m3rma1d" <m3r...@mypantiescreativespill.com> wrote in message
news:0uggt1t122cvao536...@4ax.com...
Abrasha
>
> What I want to know, where did the "veteran's" get the answers to
> their questions when they first started out? If you have such a problem
> with ignorance as a whole, what are you doing to irradicate it? How did
> you learn your craft?
>
Following is a note I wrote on 8-26-2002 in response to a posting by
Mary Lee Hu, metalsmith, goldsmith, artist, and professor at a
University in Seattle, is a list serv that went out to metal educators,
about my schooling to become a goldsmith. It's rather long. For those
of you interested, here it is (I hope the formatting doesn't get all
screwed up):
Mary Hu wrote:
>>
>> I am often trying to decide, as I design new classes or projects...how much
>> emphasis to place on technique, how much on design, how much on idea or
>> concept...
>>
>> I am a product of our American post-war metals educational system. BFA at
>> Cranbrook with Richard Thomas and MFA at SIU-Carbondale with Brent Kington.
>> I thought I was getting a great education - especially at Cranbrook...it was
>> a well respected art school wasn't it?
>>
>> When I visited some of the schools in London several years after finishing
>> school I was amazed. We were at Sir John Cass College on the day they were
>> taking a test. They had been given a design - blueprint if you will - and
>> had to complete it by the end of the day (yes, day-long classes).
This is how we often took tests in at the Goldschmiedeschule in
Pforzheim. When I got your email, I pulled out my old "Ausbildungsnachwies"
(educational record book.) A record book every student had to keep according to
some very strict rules and regulations, (even the handwriting in it was
regulated) that spans the entire three years of my education to become a
goldsmith, from day one (9-4-1973), with the first entry being "Aufnahme in die
Berufsfachschule" (Entry into the trade school part of the school for
goldsmithing) to the last day 6-23-1976, "Pruefung" (test -exam). This was the
last day of a two day exam. 16 hours in total of goldsmithing. I still have the
piece I made.
We had tests throughout the year, and twice during each year we had a so-called
"Zwischenpruefung IHK" (in between test (mid semester test?) for the Chamber of
Industry and Commerce) In quickly going over my record book, I found these
entries.
3-19-75 (This was during my second year) in the afternoon which was if I
remember correctly from 1 to 5 PM, "Go: Zurichtung fuer Zwischenpruefung"
(Goldsmithing: Preparation for in between test).
3-20-1975: Both morning and afternoon, i.e. from 8 to 12, and from 1 to 5 "Go:
Zwischenpruefung IHK" (In between test for the Chamber of Industry and
Commerce"
Our names were not put on the pieces, but were given a number. The same test
was taken by all of the students in the same year of education for goldsmith in
all of Baden-Wuerttemberg. All the pieces were collected and critiqued against
a scale and each other, for a number of criteria at a central location. As with
your example we worked off a blue print of a given design. For this particular
test, my score was 95 out of 100, which got me a grade 1.2 (In Germany 1 is the
highest possible 6 is the worst).
Throughout my education I had tests like these.
>> The less
>> advanced class was making a brooch from nickel silver - sawing out all the
>> holes where stones would be set into a flowing ribbon design. The piece
>> would be graded at the end against how exactly it fit the design - probably
>> with a caliper down to thousandths.
Sounds about right.
>> The advanced class was making a hinged
>> watch band.
In my second year at school, I made a watch case. I still have the watch. Kind
of sloppy, if you ask me now. :-)
>> I was amazed...here I was with my masters...and could I have
>> done that? I was thinking, why wasn't I taught things like this?
I think part of the answer lies in the history of the founding of this country
(the US that is). A great deal of my education and the education of all the
trades in Germany as well as in England, can be traced back directly to the days
of the guilds of the renaissance and later. The guilds were the institutions
that controlled all of the trades. Who was allowed in, i.e. be trained, how
they were trained, how they were run, etc. The good part of that was, and still
is, a guarantee of quality, of mastership, of the trades, to the buying public.
They knew, that if a master was in charge of a particular project, whether it
was making a piece of jewelry, building a house or making a cabinet, they were
dealing with someone who knew his trade, and would be able to deliver a good
piece of work. To this day in Germany, one can not open a business, unless at
least one of the owners of that business owns a "Meisterbrief" (Master's
Certificate) in one of the trades offered by that business.
Of course, the guilds were also very discriminatory. I for instance, being
Jewish, would never have been allowed to be educated in one of the trades run by
guilds. The same was true for members of other religions, or other minorities.
The people who escaped Europe, to come to this country, also escaped the tyranny
of the guilds. Unfortunately now, a couple of centuries later, we are stuck
with an educational system, that in my opinion does not work. At least not
where the trades like goldsmithing are concerned.
I know, I know, we are not teaching trades here, we are teaching "Art". Yeah,
right! But you all already know my opinion, so I am not going there again. But
ask yourselves, did Wenzel Jamnitzer ever go to art school, did Benvenuto
Cellini ever go to art school, did Titian, Goya, da Vinci, Breughel, Rembrandt?
We get ourselves thousands of overeducated art majors every year, and ... oh
shit, here I go again.
>>
>> Then we went out to the entranceway where a case displayed past student work
>> - obviously things they were proud of - silver presentation cigar boxes and
>> the like full of engraved inscriptions. Excellently made, ...
Pretty much like the stuff you see in the hallway of the Goldschmiedeschule
>>stiff, dull
>> and boring...to me (a child of the 60s, US educated).
All a matter of opinion. I find that kind of work rather inspiring and
awesome. There is a beauty all of it's own in mastery of skill and technique.
>>
>> Ever since then, I have questioned - when is the best time to introduce
>> technique and how much, and when to try to get the student to develop an
>> individual sense of self, ideas, design and direction with those techniques.
>> Once tightened, can someone be loosened up?
I understand that electroshock therapy can be very useful here.
>> Once loose, can someone later
>> perfect the needed techniques?
Only if one is willing to put in the time needed to do so.
However, I do think that personal temperament and style have a great deal to do
with this also. When someone wants to work with me, either as an apprentice or
an assistant, I always ask them to bring everything they have made in the last
five years or so, so I can take a look at it. It doesn't matter if this are
drawings, photos, metal work, jewelry. Good quality or bad.
It is very unlikely, that someone who draws beautiful flowers and landscapes and
carves fabulous waxes for organic jewelry, will be a better match for me, than
someone who has tried to make a piece of jewelry out of geometric shapes and has
failed miserably because all the seams are crooked and there are gaps and pits
in every solder joint. I cannot teach the "organic person" how to see what I
see, but I can teach the "geometric thinker" how to become a better craftsman.
>>
>> I have seen teachers here in the US go in various ways - give lots of
>> freedom (tell me what you want to make and I will help you make it) - or
>> throw lots of conceptual ideas at the students using found objects and glue
>> to get them loose and thinking - or teach a technique and have everyone do a
>> project of their own design using it - or introduce a technique and have all
>> the students do a single assigned design using it - like the British school.
>>
>> Different approaches probably work better for different students (and
>> different teachers). I doubt that one can really say one is completely bad
>> - for all people and all teaching goals.
>>
>> I remember taking a workshop where the last example above was the teaching
>> style. Monkey see, monkey do.
That's an expression I use a lot when I teach an assistant. Watch what I do, if
you cannot see what I do, you cannot repeat it. If you cannot see your
mistakes, you cannot fix them. And it is very important to make the mistakes
also. You learn more from failure than from success.
>> It was about the most wonderful workshop I
>> have ever taken!!! Al Ching brought in Satsuo Ando, a Japanese master of
>> chasing and engraving with the Japanese style chasing tools. We watched him
>> make a tool, we made it. We watched him use it to do X and we all tried to
>> do X. It was either good as it was just like his or not good as it was not.
>> By the end of the two weeks, we started not doing things exactly like his
>> example - because, being Americans, we just HAD to be original. But we did
>> learn a lot in a short time. Of course, we were all totally committed to
>> the field by then. Not students looking around, trying to decide what they
>> liked doing.
I did not become a goldsmith in school, I already was goldsmith, when I entered
goldsmithing school in Pforzheim. BTW, this is something I only found out
later, I did not know this then.
I think in life the natural way of development is "Be-Do-Have". Take for
instance things we have all done in life, like taking piano lessons, or ballet
classes, Little League baseball. That was different, more along the lines of
"Have-Do-Be", meaning get the tutu and the ballet slippers (Have), take lessons
and rehearse (Do) and you will become a dancer (Be). We all know, that this
doesn't work, and we have all done it more than once during our life.
With the model of Be-Do-Have, it is exactly the other way around. I am a
goldsmith, therefore I will seek out teachers and do goldsmithing, and get the
stuff I need to get to be a good goldsmith. Tiger Woods was a golfer at age
four. Jehudi Menuhin was a violinist at age 6.
I remember, George Leonard wrote a wonderful article about "mastery" some years
ago for Esquire Magazine. I still have a copy of it somewhere. I don't want to
write from memory, because I would only get it wrong, I'll look it up.
>> Too many young people these days need instant
>> gratification...
No shit!
>> and sending a student back over and over to get the angle
>> just right on the engraving chisels is risking having them quit.
So what. Have them quit. The ones that don't are worth your attention. You
have to find a way to make them understand that getting it just right is
important, especially when it comes to engraving chisels. Take a look at the
work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today. Look
at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His site is at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect he has for
his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a site at
http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand
engraving. This site has a great links page.
Also take a look at the work of Adone Tiz Pozzobon at
http://www.engravingarts.net/gallery_knife_engraving.html
(Home page: http://www.engravingarts.net/main.html) Gives new meaning to the
term so loosely used in the US, ... "master".
>>
>> Over the years I have experimented with how I teach - but mostly have stayed
>> within the third example for the entry level courses. Classes are mostly
>> technique centered, with assignments then defined loosely so that there is
>> enough flexibility (I hope) to allow students to interpret them in a
>> personally interesting or even exciting direction. But they have to show
>> they understand and can do the required process.
>>
>> I think the person I pattern my teaching style after the most is Fred
>> Fenster. I was able to observe Fred teach when I was fortunate enough to be
>> taking over for Eleanor Moty one year at Madison while she was on leave. I
>> sat in on Fred's beginning class demonstrations and I cannot tell you how
>> much I learned. He explained things so clearly, introduced things in a
>> logical manner, demonstrated things for the students. My beginning classes
>> had not had this type of teaching. It was more of a dive in and learn from
>> each other experience.
>>
>> I would really be interested in the type of classes Abrasha had at
>> Pforzheim?
We pretty much did it all. See below.
>> How many years was the course?
Two years of schooling. After this a one year apprenticeship in a firm, which
ended with a state exam which certified me as a "Juwelengoldschmied Geselle"
(Journeyman Goldsmith)
>> What subjects were taken -
>> within metals and also non-metals or non-art? How long were the classes?
Goldsmithing, Silversmithing (much less), Stone setting, Engraving, Enameling,
Engine turning (Guilloche), Sculpture, Gemology, Jewelry related math, Geometric
drawing , "Free" Drawing, Material knowledge (Werkstoffkunde), Work practices
(Arbeitskunde), Art history, Economics, Sociology, German.
The first year we had three times four hours of goldsmithing. The second year
four times. All the other practical classes like silversmithing, engraving,
stone setting were 4 hours each, and classes like drawing were shorter, the
theoretical classes were one hour or 45 minute classes, I don't remember
which.
>> How many teachers did you have - one person to teach everything, or
>> specialists brought in to teach their specialty only?
Specialists only. they were not brought in, they mostly worked full time at the
school. They were all masters in each of their fields. In Germany you have to
be a master in a trade in order to be allowed to teach others in a trade.
>> Did you study both
>> hollowware and jewelry, or only jewelry?
Both. However, the amount of silversmithing (as it was called in Germany) was
rather minimal and only exposing us to the two basic techniques of raising and
sinking and doing a couple of very basic projects. A cup and a chalice, in my
case. I never finished the chalice, still have the parts. The teacher was sick
a lot that year.
>> (In some of the British schools I
>> visited, one had to choose and only study one or the other).
>>
>> Then, within jewelry, how were the techniques introduced - demos and a
>> design that everyone had to do exactly?, or were you designing the things
>> you made?
We designed nothing. We got drawings of what we had to make. The teacher would
explain on the black board. Demos were usually given. I remember having a lot
of difficulty "getting it" with how to make a good bright cut next to a stone in
a bezel setting. My teacher kept trying to explain something in words, which
cannot be explained in words. How to get the "feeling" for sharpening and
polishing your graver just right so it just glides easily over the metal, barely
cutting it. I figured it out 20 years later.
>> What subjects/techniques were taught...I am sure basic
>> benchworking and stonesetting, but what else? chasing, casting, engraving,
>> etching, enameling, lapidary, filigree, chainmaking, etc, etc, etc.
>>
In school I did not do etching, lapidary, and filigree, however, these skills
were available within the teaching faculty
>> I am especially interested in the way some of the very basic things were
>> taught - like for instance filing.
We did nothing else, but laying out, drilling, sawing and filing for the first
full three months of my education. I repeat THREE MONTHS. My first
goldsmithing class test started in the 11th week. The test was spread over
three classes, 12 hours. The test is described in my Record Book as "layout,
drilling, sawing, filing". A week later we did our first "in between test" for
the Chamber of Industry and Commerce; again layout, drilling, sawing and filing.
This time with a little soldering thrown in at the end to nicely screw up the
piece.
>> This has been one of the hardest things
>> for me to teach students to do well.
It IS one of the hardest things to do well.
>>
>> Oh yes, Abrasha asked me what I considered to be a good student.
I did? I don't remember that. Are you sure that was me?
>> In my mind
>> a good student is one who is proactive about learning. One who reaches out
>> to learn - pushes, stretches.
I agree. My last student and later assistant, had a full time job when he came
to me. He worked with me on his days off. I had said that I would teach him,
but that I was not interested in hiring him. He took my offer.
>> One who does not keep asking if it is done
>> yet. One who does not just do the minimum assigned. One who devises new
>> learning experiences for him or herself and will keep doing that after
>> leaving school.
>>
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Martha Hughes
Well, when I'm paying the professional several hundreds of dollars for the
valuable time so that they can teach me a technique I expect to be able to
ask them a questions, no matter how stupid or simplistic they feel it is.
I don't expect to get something for nothing but if you're going to be a
teacher of a craft stupid questions (no matter how many times you've been
asked and answered in the past) are part and parcel of the teaching
profession.
Being a newbie, myself, I am quite adept of finding my own answers,
researching for the solutions to my own problems, and I'm not scared to
make mistakes (my best learning devices) and basically taking care of
myself. However, I will go to my instructors when I've exhausted my
skills and abilities and ask them to help me out. That's what they are
being paid for - If I can't ask them questions (no matter how trite or
stupid they might think they are) the why am I paying them several of
thousands of dollars to have access to expertise? My time as an jewelry
artist might not be as valuable as theirs - but I can sure bet you my time
in my profession is just as valuable (seeing how part of it goes to paying
them their salary).
I don't ask for free advice. However, I'm willing to pay for it.
Martha Hughes
When you respond to questions like it's real easy for me to respect your
opinion. I already respect your training and talent. Thank you for the
thoughtful and informative response.
M. Hughes
Abrasha
>
> Take a look at the
> work of Steven Lindsay, one of the finest hand engravers in the US today. Look
> at his work and tell me that it doesn't make your mouth drop. His site is at
> http://www.lindsayengraving.com/index.html And the love and respect he has for
> his tools is also awe inspiring. Take a took at his shop at
> http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/index.html He also maintains a site at
> http://www.EngravingSchool.com/, which is devoted to the teaching of hand
> engraving. This site has a great links page.
>
Those first two links are wrong. My apologies for not checking before posting.
They should be
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/ and
http://www.lindsayengraving.com/tour/
both without the "index.html"
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Ted Frater
Thanks for making a case for the thinking newbe.
It makes a pleasant change to hear it.
Theres not many about.
the point I was trying to make at least,
what I thought I said was,
The working professional(designer, or working master ) whose time is
valuable being in business for himself being expected to answer stupid
questions that the student should have looked up himself.
I was not writing about the professional jewelry teacher,
who chooses to sell for the want of a better word his knowhow.
By doing so, he, by implication accepts the risk of being asked the same
questions over and over.
Apart from the 1st 4 months of my jewelery making career,
ive allways designed, made and marketed my own products.
Ive never taught nor thought to do so.
the only person Ive taught all I know is my son, who from the earliest
time he could walk, came into the workshop and started to ask questions,
what do I do?
put him out? and get on with what ever I was making?
or answer him and show him what I was doing?
I chose the latter course as I reassoned he might just want to do it
too, or if he was bright with his head, hed have 2 strings to his bow
instead of 1.
When he was (in the equivalent to your high school) at public school he
had several project in the cdt class. We would discuss these and I
deliberately made him think out the solutions to the design problems he
had to solve.I had no intention to give the answer to him.
Its proved a success,as now he is able to tackle any problem scenario
and find the most practical solution in his current employment.
He is brilliant at computers and software, went on to take this at
university, and found it wast what he wanted to do. Dropped out and is
now working with a designer and builder of underwater sonar systems.
Much happier at that.
.Apologies if I gave the wrong impression.
I couldnt agree more with you,
in your clearly outlined scenario.
Ted Frater.Dorset UK.
Martha Hughes
Hello Ted:
Thank you for your word - the explained the point of view where you
were coming from. When I found this group I sort of had in mind that it
would be one of those places I could find answers to my questions, exchange
ideas, maybe find a mentor - just living up to being a clever newbie. :)
I have learned a few things but not because I asked any questions
- and probably won't ask any in the futures - at least not in this
forum. Because a beginner I am going to ask the question that has been
asked and answered millions times before by those who came before me.
Hwoever, it will be the first time that I asked the questions - and if I'm
paying attention - it will be the last time. :) I will just sit at the
feet to the masters and learn by listening - and paying attention (that
being said with all respect and with not a hint of sarcasm).
One thought I would like to introduce in this string we've been sharing is
the flip side - the meddling veteran who likes to give you unsolicited
advice/instruction/correction - you name it - and then ridicules for
not listening to them. They are in every faceted of your life - you just
can't avoid them. They remind me of a meddling middle-aged family member who
just can't keep out of your business and get's all insulted because you didn't
do exactly want they wanted you to do. I know they mean well but sometimes you
just want to discover things on your own and don't want to be told what to do.
It's all part of the learning process.
I usually listen to what they have to say - use what I can and ignore the rest.
Sometimes, you do get some pearls of wisdom from them - sometimes you
don't. And I, will of course, accept responsibility for all my failures
and revel in my glories.