Platinum Electroforming????
RedglareRS
metals to a thickness of 300 microns. Does anyone out there know anything
about this technique??
Regards,
James
nhw...@my-deja.com
Dear James,
Yes, sure. But as I wrote on the Rhodium Plating group, I make my
living by consultancy (although I have given a VERY extensive "LECTURE"
to Felipe on-line there). If this is not a passing fancy, and if you
are ready to spend serious time (and $ 850 / day x 3 days (min) +
business class airfare) I am able to set you up to do this successfully.
I am known to the Platinum Guild of Japan, was invited as one of only
eight non-Japanese exhibitors to exhibit my creations at the last-held
Pt exhibition several years ago. My work has received extensive
publicity in Japan.
My development work in this field is well known.
If, and only if, you are serious about this, you may e-mail me and we
can meet in Switzerland at the Basel Fair 23rd to 30th March. After
this I shall be in Italy (Milan), Germany (Stuttgart and Frankfurt),
and then in the US (several towns). I would be happy to meet you at our
mutual convenience.
If you would to utilize me to teach a group, and not your specific
organisation only, that too can be accomodated.
Sincerely
Nariman H. Wadia
Consultant
nhw...@hotmail.com
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
AWM2000
machine, installation etc. is high 6 figures.
Manufacturers use a wax model that conducts electricity. Put it on an
electrode. Put them in a bath of platinum salt and run electric current through
the bath to cause the deposition of platinum on the model. That produces a
shell that matches the shape of the outer surface of the model. They clip off
the models. There is a small hole in the piece and melt the wax from inside. I
believe there is an acid bath to dissolve residual wax. Then they attach
earring posts, or pins for brooches or bales for pendants.
It is fairly complicated with different voltages, time in the bath and solution
concentrations affecting the thickness of the shell. You can get big, bold
designs without a lot of weight. The cost per ounce or gram of finished product
is expensive.I have not heard of anyone putting platinum over other metals
although I guess you could. The shells usually are gold or platinum. I don't
know of anyone doing platinum in the US at this point in time. I believe there
is one company electroforming gold in the US.
Ray
Andrew Werby
AWM2000 wrote in message ...
>Electroforming is a very capital intensive process. As I recall the cost of
a
>machine, installation etc. is high 6 figures.
[For gold and platinum, yes. But copper can be electroformed much cheaper,
then plated.]
>
>Manufacturers use a wax model that conducts electricity. Put it on an
>electrode. Put them in a bath of platinum salt and run electric current
through
>the bath to cause the deposition of platinum on the model. That produces a
>shell that matches the shape of the outer surface of the model. They clip
off
>the models. There is a small hole in the piece and melt the wax from
inside. I
>believe there is an acid bath to dissolve residual wax. Then they attach
>earring posts, or pins for brooches or bales for pendants.
>
>It is fairly complicated with different voltages, time in the bath and
solution
>concentrations affecting the thickness of the shell. You can get big, bold
>designs without a lot of weight. The cost per ounce or gram of finished
product
>is expensive.I have not heard of anyone putting platinum over other metals
>although I guess you could. The shells usually are gold or platinum. I
don't
>know of anyone doing platinum in the US at this point in time. I believe
there
>is one company electroforming gold in the US.
>
>Ray
[Some years back, I went to a bankruptcy auction of a large jewelry company
that had been doing this in gold. Their process involved electroforming over
a
zinc model in much the way Ray describes plating wax (presumably with a coat
of conductive lacquer). The zinc was then removed with an acid bath, through
a
hole, which was then covered up with a soldered-on finding. This made large
hollow pieces in high-carat gold. A computer control was apparently
necessary
to deposit the alloy accurately. (Apparently these were selling well, the
bankruptcy was due to over-extension on the owner's part.) Platinum probably
can be electroformed in a similar manner.]
Andrew Werby
http://unitedartworks.com
nhw...@my-deja.com
(friends, just for you to read, and perhaps enjoy.)
It is not difficult to electroform PURE gold, Pure silver, or pure
copper. The simplest of equipment and techniques will do. ( I can
explain on this forum if enough people ask. )
But, AHAAA!, when you want to do carat gold ACCURATELY, that you need
so many tests and so many additions of this metal or that in precise
dosages that that it drives a human crazy. That's when the computers
come in.
Equipment for electroforming PURE GOLD or Silver can be obtained new
for from $ 650 (yes 6hundredfifty)to $10,000, new. The carat machines
start at about $45000, and very rapidly climb to the $250,000 range.
SelRex, Enthone, IECO, Hispana de Maquinaria make very good equipment
for electroforming in carat golds, but in order to get good colour,
these machines are forced to use cadmium as an alloying metal. Cd is
rapidly being banned in one country after another...
Only DEGUSSA Galvanotechnik of Schwaebisch Gmuend make a process that
uses only Silver and Gold to get electroforms from 8K to 18K,
accurately to Swiss Standards, which demand that every portion of a
quality marked piece shall conform to that quality, not just overall
averages. THAT's what takes doing, and so THAT's what costs! It is
called Aurunaform, costs a quarter mil, and has a permanent modem
connected to Sch. Gmuend to troubleshoot, repair, problem-solve
automatically. WOOOOO-EEE!
Did you know that masters (mothers) for pressing the very first
phonograph records circa 1900 onwards to the present day were
electroformed? So precise was the reproduction (of the grooves)that
several generations of mothers and masters and stampers could be taken
off back-to-back-to-back-to-back (you get the general idea :-) )
without any major distortion of the groove. That was 78 RPM. This same
method was used for EP (45 RPM) and LP (33 RPM) with what were then
called 'microgrooves'. Now, even the molds of supermicro CDs are still
made the same way. Yes, Prudence, I know a laser cuts them; I'm
referring to replication.
The oscillations of the cutting needle were engraved into
the 'acetate'. The acetate was then subject to a pair of sprays of
silver salts and reducing agents to make a conductive film of pure
silver, ooooh! molecules thin! Then, the film became the basis on which
thick nickel plating was done. This became the MOTHER. By
electroforming on the mother several negatives were (electro)formed.
Forming yet another time gave you the masters. Yet another two stages
of electroforming gave you dozens of stampers, which then were mounted
in heated platens and pressed into the records as we knew them.
Friends, imagine then the perfection of detail that could be obtained
even after five generations of electroforming.
Another example of electroforming was electrotypy. Printing plates made
and duplicated by EF.
In the 40's and 50's (GOSH, I FEEL SOOOOO OLD!) a very popular form of
EF was "Bronzing" Baby Shoes. A lacquer containing graphite was rubbed
into used baby shoes, which were then suspended in a copper sulphate
bath, and plated. It was quite the rage to have your baby's shoes
immortalised. It WAS REALLY CUTE.
IF YOU WANT TO EXPERIMENT WITH ELECTROFORMING there are various
products designed to make nonconductive surfaces conductive. Where most
of you seem to live (the U.S.) the most popular are "Aquadag"
and "Electrodag". Verrrrrry good indeed. I forget who makes them; you
just go to a hardware store and ask. Or use your internet search
engines!
To duplicate any three dimensional form, simply swathe it in RTV
silicone, or better CASTALDO "Liquacast" available from ANY jeweler's
supply. Use it as directed. Then spray Electrodag or Aquadag lightly
inside the cavity (DO NOT FORGET A CONNECTING WIRE!!!) and plate first
with a copper strike, then with copper. If you want a copper
electroform, just keep going... If you want Silver or Gold, well change
to a suitable bath, and THEN keep going. When sufficient thickness is
reached, remove with the original copper, and anneal at, ohhh, 350c or
400c for 30 mins to an hour(otherwise the plating might be friable,
crumbly). Then remove the copper with dilute acids.... and there you
are.
I OVERSIMPLIFY, make trials. Do it yourselves. Try! Struggle!! SUFFER!!!
Remember, IF AT FIRST YOU DON'T SUCCEED, you can always ask,
Nariman.
Love you all!
larry seiger
>
What wonderful advice! Often we hear mention of one technique or another (most
recently fusing) and then the flood of messages come that say "where can I read
about that" . While there is absolutely nothing wrong with that it is good to
hear someone come out and just tell us that we can have confidence in our own
struggle. I have learned my best lessons by trying something I heard about,
just to see if i could figure it out myself...no books, cd's, internet etc.
I hope more people take this advice...then let us know what they learned. This
will richly enhance our little electronic community.
Thanks Nariman!
Larry Seiger
nhw...@my-deja.com
lsha...@aol.comnojunk (larry seiger) wrote:
> > make trials. Do it yourselves. Try! Struggle!! SUFFER!!!
> >
>
> hear someone come out and just tell us that we can have confidence in
our own
> struggle. I have learned my best lessons by trying something I heard
about,
> just to see if i could figure it out myself...
>
Larry!
Yes! Yesss! You got it.
There are not only many people who depend on other people to help them
(which I NEVER NEVER refuse, if asked... although if they ask for
something that is my bread and butter to disclose, I remind them,
USUALLY gently, that I am after all, a paid consultant), but there is
also kind of armchair craftsperson, who LOVES reading about things, but
will never actually try to do it themselves.
Have you noticed? Actually, I love those guys too!
What I was trying to do with that electroforming post, was to reassure
intending craftspeople, that, as long as you work with pure metals, the
art is not difficult; and that EF has been used for things other than
jewellery, use your imagination. GO TRY IT, think up crazy
applications. But remember what I wrote at the end, "If at first you
don't succeed, just ask me" :-) But TRY IT FIRST.
If I may take up space to give you an example:
Many jewellers making very precious jewellery, and hand-setting
diamonds after casting, use to call me up (still do): "Mr. Wadia, we
need your help. We wish to learn how to cast diamonds in place (in the
wax - also called in these parts wax-setting)".
My invariable reply has been, "Well, you know the method already, you
are simply scared to try! Go ahead, try it for yourself. Of course you
will have problems. That's when you call me. Tell me what problem(s)
you faced, and together we will solve them."
(Remember these are very large manufacturers that use hundreds, even
thousands of carats, every month. Making trials, losing some diamonds
(lower quality) is part of the game...)
And you know what? Most often, I received elated telephone calls
later. "mr Wadia, it was SO SIMPLE! We wish we had tried it long ago!
But, well, we did have problems here, here and here. Can you help us
remove those wrinkles?"
And together, we attack just the problem areas, and , usually, solve
everything. But the client has CONFIDENCE, "We did it ourselves."
That makes me proud of them. I do think of them as my kids.
Dear Moderator,
If all this is just blocking space, please tell me. I will try to stick
more to the point. I love to ramble - put me right if I am out of line.
Nariman H. Wadia.