A necklace I am proud of :)
Flic
pieces, but the one I created last night I am very proud of. It took
about 5 hours, mainly because I was doing some joins I hadn't done
before and it took me a while to get the hang of it. I would appreciate
it if any body would give me an opinion on what they think!
Please see it at:
http://airraid.mancubus.net/flic/pics/pretty_necklace.jpg
Thank you!
Flic
PS. I know I have to think of better names for the pieces!
Abrasha
I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my
wrists.
Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.
Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
necklace" shit.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W.. Rowe,
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>
>>I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my
>>wrists.
>>
>>Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
>>profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.
>>
>>Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
>>necklace" shit.
Sheesh.
Get off your high horse, will ya? It's better than that, not deserving of such
scorn and derision and you should know it.
1. She's not representing herself as a trained fine artist, trained jeweler, or
much of anything else like that. She's a hobbyist enjoying putting some things
together for her own enjoyment. Starting just from scratch, without other
training and no actual intention of doing this as some major career path, does
this not count as an enjoyable and valid thing to do? I have a sister in law
who sews. Pretty well. Her quilts are wonderful. But she's also made ordinary
stuff, including for me one year, a bathrobe of micro fleece. Shitty as a bath
robe, because the micro fleece won't absorb water to dry you off after the
shower. But instead, it's a very warm house coat for those chilly evenings.
Powder blue may not be my best color, but I like the thing, and it's maker did
it with the best of intentions. So I don't kill myself over the lack of a major
fashion label in this bathrobe of mine. And you shouldn't kill yourself because
some eager beginner produces a reasonably basic but decently enough made wire
wrap and bead necklace. yeah, it's not great art. But I'm sure she likes the
look when she wears it, and I'm sure her friends agree. I've seen stuff I'd
consider a whole heck of a lot worse get actually sold commercially.
2. it's a darn sight better than "paint by numbers" level stuff or a kit built
from instructions. It may not be earth shaking, art world turning,
revolutionary design, but at least she's not just following some printed
instructions found somewhere. or at least I don't think she is, or at least,
not totally... or I dunno... Still it's a lot better than some I've seen.
3. it's usable, and though not fine art, as decorative as any of the
commercially made similar costume pieces with which many ordinary people are
quite happy to decorate themselves. it's a lot more decorative and useful than
the kitschy beaded teddy bears someone else posted. Those, arguably, are not
even jewelry. This most certainly is.
4. The posting links to a plain jpeg image on an otherwise plain page, just as
I've repeatedly asked posters to do. it does not link to some commercial or
semi commercial page on a yahoo group or something. Surely this following of
the group rules should be worth at least *Some* brownie points... And remember,
nothing in the group's charter or history suggests it's only for seasoned pros.
Beginners at any level have always been welcome along with the professionals and
anyone in between.
And to Flic:
Don't pay attention to Abrasha. he often seems to criticize beginners who come
along hoping for approval or help but who's skills and training, both
technically and aesthetically, don't seem to meet the high standards he sets for
himself. Especially when that beginner is working with really basic methods
like beads on wire, etc. He's well known on usenet for this attitude, which
can be difficult to comprehend for those who actually know him, since in person,
he's actually a really nice and generally polite fellow, not to mention a top
notch jewelry artist, and one of the finer craftsmen I've ever met. It's kind
of a keyboard version of road rage, I think. He'll disagree perhaps, but my
point is, don't let him scare you away or discourage you.
Yeah, your necklace won't win great awards as highly original art, but that
should surprise nobody, least of all you, given that you're new at this. The
bit with double strands or more, or tassels in the middle, etc etc, have all
been done by other artists many times, for millennia. But that doesn't mean it
doesn't still look nice, because it did millennia ago, and still does now. The
color appears good on you, and you've not chosen a combination of colors that
clash or something. So I'd overall agree with you that you did a nice job. Now,
if I were doing it, I'd probably use actual gemstones, not glass beads. And my
loops would be smaller and neater, and soldered shut or something, or I'd come
up with some sort of much less visible joint or unusual mechanism design for the
linkages. And of course, when done, there would be a few more zeros in the
price. So it goes. There are many such technical and design possibilities,
many of which are within your capabilities even with limited tools and
equipment. But no matter. You've got time. Keep experimenting, one step at a
time. And don't let the bad mouthed folks get you down. Get some good books
on jewelry making and metal work. You can get some good ideas for some more
complex constructions that won't be so similar to everything other people have
done. At the beginning, it's OK to mostly learn how to make your own versions
of things others have done. But as quickly as you can, try to work out your own
methods, so you're not just copying other peoples ideas you've seen. (I'm not
saying you did this here, at least not intentionally. Just saying you should
make an effort NOT to just do one yourself when you see something you like from
someone else.)
Peter Rowe
who's indubitably stepping in something squishy with this post.
No matter. With the rain we've had here in Seattle since Christmas, soft
squishy ground seems the norm. And this time of year is slow enough I've got
the time for some good entertaining yet silly discussions.
And to all. remember, personal attacks and flame wars are not allowed.
attacking ideas, or jewelry, is fine.
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
> <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> And to all. remember, personal attacks and flame wars are not allowed.
> attacking ideas, or jewelry, is fine.
I give him credit for not pimping his website that time.
Carl
--
to reply, change ( .not) to ( .net)
Abrasha
> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
> <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my
>>>wrists.
>>>
>>>Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
>>>profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.
>>>
>>>Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
>>>necklace" shit.
>
>
> Sheesh.
>
> Get off your high horse, will ya?
You right, my bad!
Will just make small incision in earlobe for a little bloodletting.
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W.. Rowe,
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
No doubt this will inspire a new earring design... :-)
Peter
Peter W.. Rowe,
OK, but do remember that what Abrasha does, including his site's URL in a very
short sig file at the end of on topic postings, or using his site to host a
picture of something illustrative of a point being made in his posting, has
always been totally acceptable in any case.
Peter
Marilee J. Layman
>I have taken up making jewellery recently and have done a couple of
>pieces, but the one I created last night I am very proud of. It took
>about 5 hours, mainly because I was doing some joins I hadn't done
>before and it took me a while to get the hang of it. I would appreciate
>it if any body would give me an opinion on what they think!
>
>Please see it at:
>http://airraid.mancubus.net/flic/pics/pretty_necklace.jpg
It's very pretty, but you'd get better response on rec.crafts.beads.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman
Ben Smith
"Marilee J. Layman" <mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote in message
news:n33es1l451nq3u4e7...@4ax.com...
It's very pretty, but you'd get better response on rec.crafts.beads.
--
Marilee J. Layman
http://www.livejournal.com/users/mjlayman
I thought that it was pretty too, and that Flic was justified in being
pleased with it. I hope that she will be even more pleased with her next
piece.
Would it have been more acceptable to this group if it had been made of
precious metal and natural gemstone beads?
What determines if an item is jewellery or not?
It is very easy to be snobbish about other peoples efforts, but perhaps
Marilee J. Layman was commenting on other readers reactions.
Regards
Ben Smith
Peter W.. Rowe,
There are a couple factors involved here.
First, let me state catagorically that jewelry made with beading techniques is
most certainly within the topic and scope of this newsgroup. Discussing such
work here is entirely acceptable within the terms of the group charter.
However, there are at least two other newsgroups specifically oriented towards
bead work. rec.crafts.beads is the main one of these, so far as I know. Because
of this, historically, most of the bead workers have gravitated to that group,
and this one tends to be frequented more by the folks who's minds think of
silversmithing and goldsmithing techniques when they think of jewelry making.
This is the basis of Marilee's comment, simply because there are a lot more
people working with beads on that other group who could help and comment on
beaded jewelery.
As to negative response in THIS group to beaded jewelery, it tends to be
limited to only a few people. Most, those who simply don't work with beads
much, don't comment much on such work. And most posters here are tolerant
enough of beginners to be helpful to those not yet working at high and rarified
levels of design expertise and technical skill. Keep in mind that this is the
nature of usenet newsgroups. Anyone can post, and even in this moderated group,
so long as it meets the charter guidelines, I allow it, though like all of you,
I'm also free to comment on posts I "disagree" with. Sometimes, the few
negative responses can seem to overwhelm the conversation. Just keep them in
perspective, and things usually work out. It's been said on occasion that
totally positive praising comments on a piece of work may be nice, but seldom
result in the recipient actually learning anything useful. Critical posts may
sometimes hurt, but if written intellegently, can also be great teaching tools.
Peter Rowe
Marilee J. Layman
<benjamin...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>"Marilee J. Layman" <mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote in message
>news:n33es1l451nq3u4e7...@4ax.com...
>
>It's very pretty, but you'd get better response on rec.crafts.beads.
>I thought that it was pretty too, and that Flic was justified in being
>pleased with it. I hope that she will be even more pleased with her next
>piece.
>Would it have been more acceptable to this group if it had been made of
>precious metal and natural gemstone beads?
>What determines if an item is jewellery or not?
>It is very easy to be snobbish about other peoples efforts, but perhaps
>Marilee J. Layman was commenting on other readers reactions.
<shrug> I'm primarily a beadweaver these days, but I read this
newsgroup because I used to be an engineer and I'm interested in
techniques, even though the doctor will never let me do that kind of
thing again.
mbstevens
> First, let me state catagorically that jewelry made with beading techniques is
> most certainly within the topic and scope of this newsgroup. Discussing such
> work here is entirely acceptable within the terms of the group charter.
Yep. And may I add that the image was posted several days
before the Real Power, Kojo, declared that multi-strand
necklaces were going to be the hot item this year.
:)
Flic may outsell all of us!
;)
--
mbstevens
http://www.mbstevens.com/
mehughes
news:fmkfs15pr4vmjr7h0...@4ax.com...
"Critical posts may sometimes hurt, but if written intellegently, can also
be great teaching tools."
Yes, some people who post their work are looking for positive feedback to
bolster their own feelings and are taken aback when they get a less than
glowing response. I'm fine with critical constructive feedback - but when
it's negative and mean spirited - I don't find it useful and tend to ignore
it. I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as
this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit
my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that? As
someone relatively new to jewelry design, construction and creation I look
to all sorts of experts and ask their opinion regarding my work. I've
learned so much from then and have found them to be truly beneficial to my
development.
By the way, I create jewelry using beads and do wirework. It's not as
fulfilling as it once was and am now branching out and will start expanding
my knowledge taking silversmithing classes and working with PMC. My
inspiration came from looking at the Sundance Catalog while looking at a
piece of jewelry that was thinking to myself that "I can do that" and I was
right. Would you consider the "artist" featured in that catalog to be true
artist? Or are they just "beaders" in your opinion?
Peter W.. Rowe,
<mehu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>>"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:fmkfs15pr4vmjr7h0...@4ax.com...
>>
>> "Critical posts may sometimes hurt, but if written intellegently, can also
>>be great teaching tools."
>>
>>Yes, some people who post their work are looking for positive feedback to
>>bolster their own feelings and are taken aback when they get a less than
>>glowing response.
True enough. Often, the problem may lie in that readers of such a post do not
always have the means to put it's writer in full context. A post showcasing a
work that, to the seasoned professionals, may seen naive or rather basic and not
otherwise obviously outstanding when judged against the full body of jewelry
work out there, might have been responded to differently if readers knew, for
illustration purposes, that the maker was just eight years old, or was totally
handicapped and this was as technical as he or she could manage, or was a total
beginner, having had no instruction and this was the second piece ever
attempted. In these admitedly extreme examples, the otherwise unispiring work
takes on new impressiveness. But in the group, we're seldom able to be aware of
the difficulties a person with such a post may have had to face and overcome, or
what extent of prior experience they bring to the work. In those situations
where I've had the honor to play the role of teacher to students of jewelry,
I've set tasks to be undertaken that I usually am pretty sure will challenge
abilities. The results, not surprisingly, often are lacking in various ways
were they things made by me or someone else with my experience. Yet, from
students at the level they have been, usually the work has been impressive, as
often as not exceeding my expectations. The newsgroup is a little bit like
seeing that student work in a craft gallery showcase. You have little with
which to put it in context, unless the maker fully explains the situation, and
usually they do not.
>> I'm fine with critical constructive feedback - but when
>>it's negative and mean spirited - I don't find it useful and tend to ignore
>>it. I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as
>>this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit
>>my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that?
Not much, indeed, other than that one has failed to impress the writer, or that
the writer has a problem. It may indicate nothing more than that the writer,
like the hypothetical poster you first refer to, is interested in bolstering his
or her own self image, rather than offering constructive commentary. Just
keep in mind that a fair number of the readers of this group or others like it,
have the natural tendancy to assume, at least at first, that other readers are
somewhere near their own level of sophistication, or aspiring to it. This can
lead, obviously, to misinterpretations and abrupt initial responses. So can
long or frustrating days at work when one then settles down, finally, to relax
for a moment reading the newsgroup for anything of interest.
I happen to rather enjoy the irony in the fact that Abrasha is also the fine and
long time contributor to this group who has, on appropriate occasions, graced us
with his posting a copy of this bit of usnet wisdom (it's longer, but I've
edited it a bit for this post:)
**********
***
***1. If you post and pretend to be a fool, people will believe that you
***are a fool.
***
***Corollary: If you then post and explain that you were only pretending,
***nobody will change their mind.
***
***2. The Net-Nature is very simple. Usenet is *not* dominated by the
***smartest people, the most interesting people, or the most learned
***people. It is dominated by the people who want to tell other people
***their opinions. To expect anything else is absurd.
***
***3. Similarly, the topics that dominate any given newsgroup are not the
***most interesting, the most helpful, or the most useful. They're the
***most acrimonious and the most dissent-laden. How else could things
***possibly turn out?
***
***4. A person who says, "Sorry, I had to point that out to you" is always
***telling two lies. Ditto for "Sorry, I couldn't pass this up." "I see
***your point but...." means the opposite.
***
***5. When a fool posts deliberate flamebait, he has no influence over
***whether he/she succeeds. You do.
***
***10. The exclamation point "!" is a sentence tag which denotes emphasis.
***The double exclamation point "!!" is a sentence tag which denotes the
***writer is a self-centered fool who think his/her concerns are more
***important than anyone else. The triple "!!!" is an exaggeration of the
***double. Four or more exclamation points indicate sexual inadequacy.
***
***11. You, personally, are a unique, exciting, vibrant, intelligent, wise,
***and self effacing individual with a great deal to contribute to the
***newsgroups you select on the Net. So is every other schmuck who posts.
***Get over it.
***
***14. Internet gurus on a specific topic are a dime a dozen. It is the
***people who don't know much who are rare.
*******
See the prior postings of this for the full version (google archives). It's
funny and all, but has enough of a hint of truth that I'll leave it to speak for
itself in this discussion.
>> As
>>someone relatively new to jewelry design, construction and creation I look
>>to all sorts of experts and ask their opinion regarding my work. I've
>>learned so much from then and have found them to be truly beneficial to my
>>development.
Without good teachers, many of us would still be floundering with things we now
consider very basic. It's a heritage we all owe to those who've gone before us
and solved problems for us, developed techniques and tools for us, and been kind
enough as to share their learnings. And it's a responsibility too, for us to in
turn, be willing to pass our own learnings back to the next generation.
>>
>>By the way, I create jewelry using beads and do wirework. It's not as
>>fulfilling as it once was and am now branching out and will start expanding
>>my knowledge taking silversmithing classes and working with PMC. My
>>inspiration came from looking at the Sundance Catalog while looking at a
>>piece of jewelry that was thinking to myself that "I can do that" and I was
>>right. Would you consider the "artist" featured in that catalog to be true
>>artist? Or are they just "beaders" in your opinion?
>>
>>
I'm all for learning more. Good luck. Be aware that PMC is a highly
specialized and unique material. It's capable of some interesting things. But
don't confuse learning to work with it as being the same as learning traditional
silver smithing and jewlery techniques. Though it produces metal objects, it
has more in common with ceramics than it does with classic silversmithing.
I note from your email address that you're at the University of Washington. And
I'm going to go out on a limb and assume you're there as something other than a
metals and jewelry major in the art school. If so, be sure you familiarize
yourself with that department. It's a fine one, and if you can take on of Mary
Lee Hu's classes, you won't regret it. If looking for off campus classes, North
Seattle Community college and Pratt fine art institute both offer fine ones,
among others.
As to the sundance catalog, there's no way for me to tell without knowing much
more about the work of that person. I don't have a sundance catalog, so I
cannot even go that far. But I'd observe that it seems common for a number of
print media, including things like Lapidary Journal magazine and others, or a
number of the supply catalogs, to publish photos of works made using their
materials, or otherwise intended for instruction. Many of these things indeed
come from established fine artists, but are often chosen to be especially useful
at the beginner level. As such, often such published examples, intended often
to be copied or as inspiration for those without so much experience in that
aspect of the craft, do not really reflect the true nature of the work of that
artist. The real work those artists do for their own production and sales and
exhibition is often much more sophisticated. But not always. So it's really
not such a good idea to judge an artist from such small snapshots in those
places where the artists is not clearly showcased for their own promotion.
HTH
Peter Rowe
Abrasha
> I'm not sure what I would suppose to be learning from comments such as
> this "I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit
> my wrists" - How is that constructive? What can be learned from that?
It was not meant to be constructive nor was it meant me be a post from
which anything can be learned. Except maybe about me, to those who would
have been capable of reading between the lines!
People who make this kind of crap, make a great deal more money than I
do. Take a look at the work by an old acquaintance of mine who used to
be a sales person for IBM when I knew her here in San Francisco many
years ago. http://www.lauragibson.com/ Click on "Collections". Now a
major business who's work is in many of the major jewelry stores around
the country.
In fact, after having been a goldsmith more than 30 years, and having
received multiple honors, prizes, publications in magazines and books as
well as inclusions of my work in private as well as public collections
as prestigious as the Smithsonian, I am still struggling to make a
living and pay my bills.
2005 was my worst year EVER, and with the price of precious metals going
the way they have been going the last year or so, I see it only getting
worse. There is no future for me and my work in this market where
garbage like "pretty necklace" is all the rage. Or where the
competition are businesses like Elie International (recent post of
Partnership Opportunity), who has been in business for 23 years and now
carries an inventory of over 24,000 items. I have been in business
longer, and I have such a pathetic inventory compared to that, it's not
funny.
When I see that untrained people who make this kind of crap, because
they suddenly have a need and "passion" to make what they think is
jewelry, I get very discouraged, and depressed.
The point of my post was: I'M WORTH MORE DEAD THAN ALIVE! At least if I
were dead, my wife would get to collect on my life insurance!
So to all of you who don't like that, FUCK YOU ALL!
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Ben Smith
Please accept my apologies.
Regards
Ben Smith
"Marilee J. Layman" <mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote in message
news:q1pgs19l9l6p5k82h...@4ax.com...
Marilee J. Layman
<benjamin...@btinternet.com> wrote:
>Clearly I mistook your meaning.
>Please accept my apologies.
Accepted. :)
Marilee J. Layman
<NOXweb...@xmbstevensx.com> wrote:
>Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
>
>> First, let me state catagorically that jewelry made with beading techniques is
>> most certainly within the topic and scope of this newsgroup. Discussing such
>> work here is entirely acceptable within the terms of the group charter.
>
>Yep. And may I add that the image was posted several days
>before the Real Power, Kojo, declared that multi-strand
>necklaces were going to be the hot item this year.
If this is the Today guy, I think it's Cojo.
>:)
>Flic may outsell all of us!
>;)
--
Marilee J. Layman
Peter W.. Rowe,
<mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote:
>>Did you read this all the way to the end before you approved it?
Yes. Carefully, and with interest.
To be sure, I can't say I greatly approve of the profanity used, but it's not
prohibited in the charter, and frankly, were I writing such a post, I might well
have felt inclined to say much the same.
Though I might have worded it differently.
Yes, it's an angry and rather depressing or depressed posting, but it seems a
pertenant part of the ongoing discussion, and in fact, a whole new aspect to
that discussion. Perhaps even the most valuable point made yet in the thread.
Frankly, I'm glad Abrasha shared the increased insight into his prior postings
and reactions to the other posts, explaining just why he feels as he does.
And given that, I must say that I feel I owe Abrasha a sincere apology for
misinterpreting his prior posts. I'd thought them dismissive or eliteist
regarding beginner work, and now see I was wrong, totally, about what he was
reacting to.
So Abrasha, I apologize. Please forgive my lack of understanding.
Really.
And I sympathize as well. You're in a position faced by many artists with
integrity in their work, as well as the large number of other small retailers
faced with things like competition from Walmart or Costco, including many
jewelers who now find their livelihood threatened by mass marking of cheap
imports, knockoff copies of good designs for less, and a general perfusion of
mediocrity into the marketplace that makes it more difficult for people to sell
quality work.
I'm reminded of similar concerns expressed already when I was in grad school in
the 80s, by my major professor. One of his practices was to totally refrain,
despite numerous requests, from doing the common workshops one finds, including
those short courses at places like Haystack, or the like, some of which have
fine reputations. He felt that as a professor at a full university level
program, he has students who were paying full tuition for multiple years to
learn from him, and that for him to go do workshops giving away even a small
part of that knowledge to those taking that quick route, would be a conflict of
interest, against the interests of those full time students who'd then have to
compete with the workshop students. As such, on the very few occasions when
he'd bend his own rule (such as a workshop in CAD at a SNAG conference one year)
he'd require participants to the workshop to be those who already held a find
arts degree of some sort, ie those who had already "paid their dues".
He illustrated these concerns with those semi pros or advanced hobbyists who'd
take a couple workshops, learn one or two neat tech tricks and dive right into
production without any training or real care in actually making new work, but
rather just doing lots of what they'd been shown. We see such folks doing PMC
work, granulation, Mokume, wire wrapping, and who knows what all other narrow
technical niches, and sometimes doing them very well, but to the exclusion of a
full understanding of the field or even the history of what they are working
with. And having learned it not by actual research and experimentation, but by
being spoon fed the methods, they also end up being the ones who post oddly
simple tech questions to this group or Orchid, on matters that they could easily
solve themselves with just a little experimentation. But they've never learned
to think this way, wanting to be simply shown the answers someone else has
already found, rather than earning their own way to the knowledge. Such people
are common on the craft show circuit, and on the web and other sales venues,
often sell for less than those truly comitted to doing worthy unique work, and
take dollars away from those more committed artists. The lack of training these
people have in design, art history, and arts ethics often means they lack some
of the inhibitions in doing yet more knock offs, and they sometimes, ironically,
seem more prolific and sucessful than the much more fully trained graduates of
full arts training programs. And one unfortunate consequence is that even the
well trained artists with really good work, may have to downgrade their own work
ethics just to be able to compete in the marketplace with the poorer work out
there.
It seems to me that this situation is not going to change markedly. This level
of competition, whether from some well meaning but unsophisticated beginner,
some marketer who's sole aim is to make lots of money without regard to quality,
or simply from the big boys like Costco and Wal mart, is simply There now, and
won't go away.
So the question for many of us then becomes one of how to compete. It's no
longer, it seems, enough to just produce really good work and hope the world
finds it's way to your door. There's so much info out there flooding the
awareness of the public that a merely hopeful artists is going to get lost in
the clutter.
What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market ourselves.
We need to increase the number of consumers who understand the difference
between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but still attractive work,
and are willing to pay for the difference. And these people then need to be
able to find us.
So then.
Here's the question for the group.
How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and skills
with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really high
end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's
marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone
who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what else?
Peter Rowe
mbstevens
>
> If this is the Today guy, I think it's Cojo.
Thought that was that Stephen King dog.
;)
mbstevens
> People who make this kind of crap, make a great deal more money than I
> do.
Oh, get over it. People die. The populace votes Republican.
People believe in dogmatic religions. Volcanoes erupt.
Species become extinct after asteroids hit the Earth.
The Mafia is still around. Hicks are riding around with
guns in their trucks.
Stop being a big baby.
Peter W.. Rowe,
Yikes. All that?
Now you're making ME wonder whether slitting my wrists wouldn't be a good idea
too... (grin)
Seriously though. I didn't read his post as being any sort of big baby. I saw
it as explaining the source of his frustration with the current state of affairs
in the market. And that seems to me to be a quite legitimate issue that faces a
lot of artists. Not something to be flippantly dismissed, IMHO. It seems
especially interesting to consider it in the light of an artist like Abrasha,
who from all appearances, seems to be doing all the things we are all taught to
expect should lead to success. A good web site. Great work. Lots of publicity
and a long show record. Good galleries. etc. etc. As I asked before, how do
we all need to change in order to adapt to this new face of the market, if
indeed it's even all that new?
Peter
HareBall
I think he needs to get over it too. Just because he doesn't like her
stuff and has a hard time paying his bills doesn't mean he has to cuss
some other people for doing what they like.
I personally don't care a lot for the beaded stuff, but my my wife can
make a pair of earings out of it and only have about $2.00 in it and sell
them for $18.00. She is only giving people what they want. If they didn't
like them, they wouldn't buy it. Maybe he needs to go somewhere that
people like what he is doing.
--
Larry S.
TS 52
Ted Gittinger
Look at tedsrosaries.com I couldn't come close to making a living with
that stuff, but if ain't bad stuff, IMHO. Stop trying to make a living at
it and bitching when it doesn't do that. Have fun and get a day job in the
meantime.
ted
mbstevens
> Seriously though. I didn't read his post as being any sort of big baby.
Not this one, perhaps. His attack on the newbie was.
> I saw
> it as explaining the source of his frustration with the current state of affairs
> in the market.
I was pointing out to him that he has a choice of how to handle
his frustration.
I must know 30 painters and several sculptors and ceramicists
with the same frustrations. The brash one is the only one who
makes a habit of attacking newbies for the pure _meanness_ of
it. He gave the newbie no reasons except that he didn't like
the piece. That's not an argument, that's an appeal to his own
'authority,' which _I_ certainly don't accept.
Hundreds of fields don't pay well. If one is interested in
getting paid well, one should choose a field that pays well.
The world is the way it is. Some things can be changed.
Attacking newbies out of pure _meanness_ isn't the way to change it.
And, as to his "good" website, have a look at this:
http://validator.w3.org/check?uri=http%3A%2F%2Fabrasha.com%2F
--
mbstevens
http://www.mbstevens.com/
William Black
. As I asked before, how do
we all need to change in order to adapt to this new face of the market, if
indeed it's even all that new?
---------------------
I didn't, I got out.
The current fashion is for cheap disposable jewellery made from base metal
and baroque stones.
It's easy and boring to make, and sells for pennies.
If I wanted to sit with a pair of pliers knitting with wires all day I'd go
back to electronics, it's more fun and it pays better...
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
William Black
How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and
skills
with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really
high
end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's
marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone
who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what
else?
--------------------------------
Well I tried and, I have to admit, failed.
This spring I opened a small shop selling both my own items and bought in
jewellery, mainly silver and semi precious stones.
I made stuff, I repaired stuff, I did commissions.
Most of the money I made was from other retailers when I sold on silver
jewellery from suppliers who I met at shows, usually Asian manufacturers
selling large pieces at prices I couldn't compete with. They were selling
large complex beautifully made silver jewellery pieces at 80p per gm (about
$1:30) and I could sell them on within the trade for considerably more than
that.
Very few people wanted to pay my reasonable (£10 an hour) fees for
commissions and while doing repairs was interesting (for example mending the
silver mounts of a Pipe Major's Dirk) it wasn't that fulfilling.
In the end I sold my stock and fittings (but kept my tools) and closed the
shop.
I'm lucky in that I have an income from investments and a pension and don't
need to work. I'd hate to be in a position where I had to make a living as
a craft jeweller outside one of the two big jewellery manufacturing centres
in the UK.
One major problem was that the big discount chains sell small pieces of
jewellery at prices below the 'buy in' price for an independent retailer.
The 'bread and butter' lines of earrings and finger rings and small pendants
just dried up because I couldn't compete.
I was doing ok selling larger pieces, I could sell a couple of 40+ gm
pendants or bracelets or necklaces every week, but that's not a living,
you need a constant stream of small sales and jobs, and they just aren't
there anymore. It's just too easy to buy things like that when in another
shop that 'just happens' to have a jewellery counter.
So for my next trick...
I'm going to have a go at enamelling, just as soon as I can build myself a
new workshop...
Ben Smith
dangerous response to people who do not know you, but especialy in print
where it can seem crass).
Abrasha's predicament is not uncommon.
I spent my entire working life as a retail jeweller, the latter half at the
top end of the London trade. In that time I have seen the new designer come
and capture the imagination of the time: he has exhibitions, he and his
work is featured in the glossy magazines, and he spawns a host of copies.
Then a new star appears and he vanishes from the public consciousness. Ten
or fifteen years later something brings his name to mind, and you find that
he is still in business making much the same things as before for a very
small but loyal band of patrons who just about keep his head above water.
In the mean time the same same thing has happened to the new star.
Of course the ones who always win are the copiers. This is becaue they have
no emotional capital tide up in the designs and are prepared to move on when
fashion and the market demands it. The same applies to the retailer. I
have often seen pieces that I liked very much, had interesting and original
design, were very well made, but which I had to decline because I could not
have resold them to my customers.
In my experience most artist-craftsmen have only one style. If they are very
fortunate, that might last them their working life, but in most cases they
are passe in five to ten years if they do not re-invent themselves.
Also too many artists ask what the patron can (should) do for them rather
than what they can do for the patron. (Imagine Michaelangelo's fate if he
had got really uppity with Pope Julius).
I looked at the website cited by Abrasha.
What is he complaining about?
The design? That is purely a matter of opinion, a value judgement.
The quality of craftsmanship? Having seen illustations of his work I would
say that he has an unquestionable right to comment.
The fact that it is selling? I'm sorry, but that is just green-eyed
jealousy.
In your last paragraph you ask how craftsmen can compete.
For the straight craftsman there will always be a demand for top quality
work.
The artist-craftsman has to learn to change his style to meet the fashion of
his day, and to listen to the demands of his patrons.
It would help if part of their training included some basic salemanship and
PR.
I have known some top-rate craftsmen where I would want a whole Western
Front of trenches and barbed wire between them and the public.
Looking back I wonder if things have really changed that much, although
craftsmen certainly earn better money now in real terms than they did fifty
years ago.
Regards
Ben Smith
"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:164js1l27qnoh6tbg...@4ax.com...
Marilee J. Layman
<Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote:
>I think he needs to get over it too. Just because he doesn't like her
>stuff and has a hard time paying his bills doesn't mean he has to cuss
>some other people for doing what they like.
>I personally don't care a lot for the beaded stuff, but my my wife can
>make a pair of earings out of it and only have about $2.00 in it and sell
>them for $18.00. She is only giving people what they want. If they didn't
>like them, they wouldn't buy it. Maybe he needs to go somewhere that
>people like what he is doing.
What's she paying herself for time?
m4816k
>>And I sympathize as well. You're in a position faced by many artists with
>>integrity in their work, as well as the large number of other small
>>retailers faced with things like competition from Walmart or Costco,
>> including many jewelers who now find their livelihood threatened by mass
>>marketing of cheap imports, knockoff copies of good designs for less, and
>> a general perfusion of mediocrity into the marketplace that makes it more
>>difficult for people to sell quality work.
----------------------------------------------------------
Welcome to capitalism at it's worst. Art has become just another product in
the line, but with many infant-problems cause it's a relatively new product
on the market. That's the way I see it.
----------------------------------------------------------
>>So the question for many of us then becomes one of how to compete. It's no
>>longer, it seems, enough to just produce really good work and hope the world
>>finds it's way to your door. There's so much info out there flooding the
>>awareness of the public that a merely hopeful artists is going to get lost
>>in the clutter.
----------------------------------------------------------
How to compete? My thoughts are, first popularize modern art. It seems to me
that to the vast majority of people who buy jewellery these days (myself
included), concepts of modern art are totally undistinguishable. And to be
honest, I'll never pay top dollar for something I don't understand. To be
honest again, and without any wish on being rude, some pieces from Abrasha's
site would (based on the first glimps) lead me to install them in my car,
thinking those are some parts I lost along the way, rather than think
they're parts of a designer jewellery collection. It's just the same as with
a painting I once saw, made out of two lines and a dot. I was spinning my
head trying to see what was that the author was trying to express, but I
could have stand there for a century and not figure it out - cause I don't
understand modern art and no artist is willing to explain his work and his
inspirations. They forget we're not all former art school students. But that
doesen't mean that we have no interest in art what so ever.
----------------------------------------------------------
>>What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market
>>ourselves We need to increase the number of consumers who understand
>>the difference between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but
>>still attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these
>>people then need to be able to find us.
>>
>>So then.
>>
>>Here's the question for the group.
>>
>>How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and
>>skills with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really
>>high end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's
>>marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone
>>who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what
>>else?
----------------------------------------------------------
As you, Peter, said in one of your posts on this topic, beginners don't
explain their work and level of skill when they ask for opinions or advice
so they risk being ridiculed. Just the same, artists often don't seem to
think they need to explain their work to the public, from inspiration,
ideas, manufacturing processes, craftmanship skills necessary for the work,
materials involved etc., because it's art, and obviously think people need
to blindly buy art even if they don't have any understanding of it. I don't
accept that. Those artists, just the same, risk being missunderstood and
having problems selling their work. Take for instance a package of sugar or
salt (I'm sure you have it somewhere near) and look at a bunch of
information provided with it. See what I mean? And that's a basic product
which costs very little.
Another thing with modern art is simplicity. And I think that's one of the
more important issues. I personally am not a fan of simplistic design so
something needs to be interesting in other ways to attract me. For instance,
contain what I call "gems with a character" like amber, opal, emerald,
sunstone etc., that can make even the simplest piece look unique and awake
imagination of the viewer. And again, I'm sure pieces that look simple can
be quite complex to make, but how am I suppose to know if that's the case.
When people like me see a typical piece of modern jewellery, first thought
is (honestly again...) "what idiot would pay such a price tag for something
as simple as that?". That's because people are used to the fact that art is
something not anyone can do (and today's art visually suggests otherwise)
because of the complexity and necessary talent - take for instance
Rembrandt's "Night watch". You don't need a PhD to see that it took years of
work by a true artist to complete the piece. To sum up, that's what I think
today's artists should learn; to take art from simple, to simply amazing
(God I really need to go back to writing poetry:D).
Marijan
William Black
"m4816k" <marijan.kovacevic@REMOVE_THISos.t-com.hr> wrote in message
news:rvums1515qv24gupp...@4ax.com...
That's because people are used to the fact that art is
something not anyone can do (and today's art visually suggests otherwise)
because of the complexity and necessary talent - take for instance
Rembrandt's "Night watch".
--------------------
I could rattle on for hours about the formalisms and imagery in Rembrant's
'Night Watch', which isn't the original name by the way.
The fact that the postures of the musketeers are from a drill book and not
from life and so represent an idealised image, the fanciful helmets, also
not from life but to add a 'classical element', the social pointers, such
as the black clothes worn by the captain, the significance of the pole arm
carried by the lieutenant and many many more.
The picture carries many more 'coded messages' than most modern art.
Rick Hamilton
after a house fire.
I woke up, got out of the house safely, hopefully it is upward from
here. I did lose the
waxing studio that I was setting up, and my MM1000 missed the fire by
13 hours, as
it was shipped back to Modelmaster for an upgrade. Review your
homeowner's insurance,
PLEASE.... Oh, and hire a public adjuster first thing if you have a
major claim....
Frankly, though, Abrasha's jewelry is not going to be purchased as an
alternative to
the beaded necklace under discussion. It is a whole different level
of work and price point.
So, every $3 pair of earrings sold is not a lost opportunity, unless
you want it to be.
Marketing is difficult- I get a bit depressed too, when my most
interesting work sits, and my
simple cast wholesale pieces sell well (out of about 1000 models,
maybe 75 real hits, in the
last 20 years or so)... Don't get me started on those one trick
ponies, the designers who have
endless variations on one really basic design, and milk it for years-
real marketing for sure.
Rick Hamilton
>>"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
>>news:<164js1l27qnoh6tbg...@4ax.com>...
>>On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:00:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Marilee J. Layman"
>><mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote:
>>
>>>>Did you read this all the way to the end before you approved it?
>>
>>Yes. Carefully, and with interest.
[[[rest of long quote snipped by moderator]]]
Abrasha
> "m4816k" <marijan.kovacevic@REMOVE_THISos.t-com.hr> wrote in message
> news:rvums1515qv24gupp...@4ax.com...
>
>
> That's because people are used to the fact that art is
> something not anyone can do (and today's art visually suggests otherwise)
> because of the complexity and necessary talent - take for instance
> Rembrandt's "Night watch".
>
> --------------------
>
> I could rattle on for hours about the formalisms and imagery in Rembrant's
> 'Night Watch', which isn't the original name by the way.
That's right, it is "De compagnie van kapitein Frans Banning Cocq en
luitenant Willem van Ruytenburgh maakt zich gereed om uit te marcheren."
(The company of captain Frans Banning Cocq and lieutenant Willem van
Ruytenburgh is getting ready to march out)
>
> The fact that the postures of the musketeers are from a drill book and not
> from life and so represent an idealised image, the fanciful helmets, also
> not from life but to add a 'classical element', the social pointers, such
> as the black clothes worn by the captain, the significance of the pole arm
> carried by the lieutenant and many many more.
>
> The picture carries many more 'coded messages' than most modern art.
>
Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly), has at best
a very simplistic, uneducated and limited understanding of art in
general and modern art in particular. As far as she is concerned, the
amount of time it takes to complete a piece determines it's quality.
Obviously, as she pointed out herself "some pieces from Abrasha's
site would (based on the first glimps)", she did not take the time to
take a look at my process pages or my video, which all describe in very
precise detail the process, inspiration and philosophy behind my work.
And then she goes on to complain about the fact that these are missing,
"... no artist is willing to explain his work and his inspirations", and
"... artists often don't seem to think they need to explain their work
to the public, from inspiration, ideas, manufacturing processes,
craftmanship skills necessary for the work, materials involved etc...."
Marijan, if you are going to make generalizing statements like that, at
least do us all a favor and educate yourself first.
Your opinion, however lacking in substance and without merit, is noted.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Marilee J. Layman
>Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly),
If you take out the REMOVE_THIS, it should work.
Marilee J. Layman
<marijan.kovacevic@REMOVE_THISos.t-com.hr> wrote:
> To be
>honest again, and without any wish on being rude, some pieces from Abrasha's
>site would (based on the first glimps) lead me to install them in my car,
>thinking those are some parts I lost along the way, rather than think
>they're parts of a designer jewellery collection.
I like Abrasha's stuff, although I had it drummed in my head as a
child that mixed metals are bad. They look very functional, very
elegant. I like the mechanical details.
HareBall
news:0lpls19uhht2mc21q...@4ax.com:
I never really ask things like that. She has probably spent more on beads
and stuff than she has made since she doesn't do it with any regularity.
It's more of a hobby than a business. But if I was to think about it from
the point of what she has in them as far as time, I would say she is paying
herself about $50.00/hr. They don't take but a few minutes to make.
Ted Frater
Well!!
Ive been without the "net" for 3 days due to the fact the local
pheasnt shoot happened to hit the telco overhead line and take out the 2
carrier wires leaving the suspension wires intact, They normally
couldnt hit a door at 5 paces!!
so in my absence all hell has broken out here on RCJ!!.
as a metal worker/craftsman /self emplyed like Abrasha, I too have had
the highs and the frustration of the lows over the 36years is it now?
ive been paddling my own canoe.
So like many have said in so many words,
you either make what you want or you make what the public want.
Looking at this more closely,
IF you make what you want then theres no guarantee that the public your
exposed to will part with their hard earned or otherwise cash for it.
This is the risk you always take going down this road no matter how
much effort, money or time youve put into the creation..
IF your also true to yourself you wont or cant make what the public your
exposed to want , which in this case is what is referred to as beaded crap.
Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and to my simple old tired eyes
this beaded necklace has a classical form , with good proportions
even tho its just cheap glass and plated brass wire.
It is what it is and no more.
Its not "shit" tho as you say. , and for a beginner commendable.
Worth maybe a couple of dollars. no more.
But this doesnt solve your problem,
Now back in the early 70's here in the Uk and specifically in London, I
had just 4ft by 4ft of the railings on the Bayswater Rd. There on a
Sunday, some 120 miles from here where I live in Dorset, I put up my
display boards with my simple pendants, bracelets and finger rings.
Ive still the pics of that somewhere.
I was amazed that with the public out for a sunday walk I could and
did earn more week after week for 7 years from that little stall more
tham I did in my previous employment than i did in a whole month.
So What can I suggest?
to meet all of your requirements, which Id put in this order
A public that appreciate what you do,
even tho they might not be able to afford it.
a fair return for your time,
and an honest wage to reflect your skill level.
You have everything except that all important item, a proper shop,
This is what makes the public WANT what you make.
Again i can give you a no of examples where this made the difference
between success and failure.
I did a lot of work with the avant garde Jeweller Andrew Grima, who
had the most exclusive and modern jewellers in the west End of london
In Jermyn St.. He made ultra modern work BUT had the right display in
the right place for it.He was hugely successful because of these 2
essential items.
i too went to the trouble to have my own Seperate display marquee, (I
was NOT in the main tents along with everyone else!!) some 20ft by 10 ft
size at 4 or 5 large exhibitions at the leading craft fairs here in
the UK and throughout europe, when I got tired of the travelling every
SundayTo london and back.
I reasoned that there was only so much spare money coming onto each
show, and i intended to make sure I had the largest share of that. so I
had the best , most exciting display, . and it worked.
My average takings over 4 days selling my own work that I designed and
made over the previous months came to regularly over $10,000.00 dollars.
So with the right display, or what ever youd want to call it,, it will work.
you have to create the right atmosphere to get the public to want your
work. Thats the key to financial success. A web site isnt the right way
to do this. the public have to walk into your space and experience it,
you and your work.
I dont do jewels, just metalwork, in many differnt forms. from large
siver dishes which run into thousands of dollars to simple rings made
from siver twisted wire at $10.00 a time. Id have items in both these
price ranges on my stall, with everything in between .
Everything you do and say says something to the public. when your at a
show. you can watch their faces as they come in and take a look
around., then ask questions, and try someting on. you can see them
thinking "I want that" and then there going for their purses to have
it. then theres some one right behind them who wants one too,.
you need to get that all right, then it will work.
Id love to come over and give you a hand to do this. Maybe?
Dont give up , use your frustration and anger to power yourself through
this.
Were all on your side.
ted frater Dorset UK.
PS, what am I doing now?
that will have to wait for another time.
m4816k
>>Marijan (who has made it impossible to email her directly), has at best
>>a very simplistic, uneducated and limited understanding of art in
>>general and modern art in particular. As far as she is concerned, the
>>amount of time it takes to complete a piece determines it's quality.
No, I was just making a point that maybe today's public, living in a very
high-speed world (so to call it), likes to be shown the complexity of work
in an easily understandable way, rather than being told to finish college to
be able to understand a piece of art.
Here's the way I see it; if I buy a painting, I'll buy it because I know I
can enjoy it. For example, if I want to enjoy it while relaxing in my living
room, I'll appreciate a beautiful landscape that I can view simply as a
sight on a wonderful nature, also admiring artists skills in getting certain
shades of colors or details that make it realistic. I may even never find
out the real intention of the author for doing it, nor see metaphors or
simbolisms in it, but I know there's a way I can enjoy it. That's why I
would not buy a piece like those "two lines and a dot" I mentioned in my
previous post, cause I can't see how am I suppose to enjoy it. For the same
reason, 99% of Hollywood movies is something easily comprehensible like "Men
in black", cause it's probable that only 1% or so, of potential consumers,
will have a desire to watch a movie full of philosophycal quenstions of the
purpose of life or existance of God. Therefore, if consumers can't be
attracted with the art of story-telling, they will be with the art of
production like special effects. And Hollywood, just like you, lives from
money brought by consumers. Of course, those with more interest will ask
questions themselves to understand art, but unfortunatelly that's probably
not a high percentage of general public, so if you want to make money, you
have to adapt to the majority.
----------------------------------------------------------
>>Obviously, as she pointed out herself "some pieces from Abrasha's
>>site would (based on the first glimps)", she did not take the time to
>>take a look at my process pages or my video, which all describe in very
>>precise detail the process, inspiration and philosophy behind my work.
>>
>>And then she goes on to complain about the fact that these are missing,
>>"... no artist is willing to explain his work and his inspirations", and
>>"... artists often don't seem to think they need to explain their work
>>to the public, from inspiration, ideas, manufacturing processes,
>>craftmanship skills necessary for the work, materials involved etc...."
>>
>>Marijan, if you are going to make generalizing statements like that, at
>>least do us all a favor and educate yourself first.
Point taken, and I apologize for not paying more attention to your website,
but I also have to point out that I didn't say that you don't explain your
work - I was refering to some artists from various fields who's works I saw
(I generalized, which I obviously shouldn't have done). But that just goes
to show that I'm right when I say that people lack time these days (I was in
a hurry while "getting a glimpse on your website") so they prefer works
where they will recognize something they enjoy, on a first view. After
reviewing some parts of your site I have to say I'm surprised of the amount
of work involved, but when I'm buying (especially jewellery) I'm rarely
introduced to the manufacturing processes by sales people, therefore I as an
average consumer may compare a work of some famous artist to (for example) a
plain, mass-produced piece of jewellery (or part of a car:D). Obviously, we
can go on like this for days and don't come to an agreement cause we don't
share interests and expertise, but I was just presenting my opinion, which,
to your disappointment, is rather close to that of most people's
understanding of art. I was just trying to help:-)
mehughes
attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these
people then need to be able to find us.
All I know is that I started reading this group because I wanted to expand
on my very limited knowledge of jewelry design. I'm not in a position where
I can chuck it all and go back and get a degree in fine arts/jewelry design.
I just didn't expect this level of animosity from the "real" artist towards
those of us who liked to be "spoon fed our knowledge and who are able to
sell what we make without paying our dues and are doing quite well at it.
When I look at Abrasha's jewelry I think "Ferrari" and when I look at the
example of the jewelry that he was bemoaning I think "Volkswagen". How many
Ferraris do you see on the road compared to Volkswagens? More people can
afford a Volkswagen than can afford a Ferrari and for the most part a
Volkswagen is more practical for everyday needs. The reason why Abrasha's
jewelry doesn't sell as well as his acquaintance from IBM is that it doesn't
look like something most people would wear on a daily basis and something
that would be seen in gallery or museum somewhere. And I bet his cost
quite a bit more than her does.
Don Norris
It is pretty, and it seems like it was well done. I have been making a
good living for 30 years making little Silver "junk" jewelry most priced
at $20.00. Or at least what "great educated artists" would call "junk".
I have cast thousands of solid silver Mountain Alder Cones. No real art
there, but fun and very profitable. I teach my student how to make a
living with $20.00 very profitable silver stuff. Make a living on Monday
and Tuesday. Pay the bills with inexpensive stuff on Monday and Tuesday.
Make $50.00 stuff to $100.00 stuff on Wednesday. Make stuff that people
will buy, not what you like. And, do not make everything a "Master
Piece" for the pages. Then that gives you several days to make your
master pieces if you wish. You know the junk that wins art shows, but no
one will ever wear. Junk that is on the front of Magazines that only a
few can afford. A master piece that no one will buy is just a piece of
junk to me.
Well back to my subject line. Over the years I have watch the jewelry
market, the large average person jewelry market go from rhinestone
jewelry, which I thought was, and still is pretty. You can just go ahead
and kill yourself if you don't think those rhinestone pins aren't
pretty. I would be glad to help you. But, then again, I can look at
Elvis on black velvet and see that it is pretty. Might not want it in my
living room, but I can say it is pretty. For some pompous ass to say it
is ugly is Ok with me too. Anyway, back to the subject of owing beaders
a debt of gratitude. As Americans got a little better off, they started
buying Silver jewelry. Seemed to have more value than rhinestones and
pot metal. Not prettier, just more value for their money. Maybe even
collectable, as with American Indian art might be. Then we got better
off financially, and we started buying gold jewelry. One of the ugliest
metals I know of: it is "yellow" you know. Not my favorite color, not
pretty at all. And we could even afford "diamonds", they are worth a
lot. Not real pretty either, just clear. Oh, if you get real close and
they are real good, you get all that pretty sparkling light out them.
Oh, so pretty! Most however are just white if you are more that 18
inches from them. So we started making and selling emeralds, rubies and
even some garnets and such. They were prettier, especially for the
money. Oh, too many customers thought they were pretty too, and all of
sudden they were more valuable than diamonds. Dam it I wish we could
have cornered all those markets!. Then came the Hunt brothers. I had a
dream that I shot the fat toad looking Bunker Hunt square in the head
with on of my silver arrow heads. A $20.00 piece of junk that even
during their crap, cost me about $2.00 to make. Oh, how we cried about
the cost of our metal. It went from $0.75 an ounce when I first started,
to a hair over $40.00. I was casting 200 pieces of Sterling Silver
jewlery, pine cones, a day back, then and my suppliers never charged me
more than $17.00 per ounce. We knew it would fall and they wanted me to
stay in business. Even at $17.00 I made a lot of pretty junk, and still
made a good living. New cars, tv and never was hungry.
Anyway, back to the subject of those darned beaders and their pretty
necklaces. I remember my "real" jeweler friends laugh about making
mother's rings with all those color all on one ring. What junk, pretty
junk, meant a lot to the mother wearing it, but oh, what junk.
Birthstones, even synthetic birthstones. Oh, my, we should have all hung
ourselves. Of course they always laughed at me while driving to work in
their Pintos. Yes every thing had to be those pretty diamonds, with
maybe a hint of color on each side. But, only one color, two would have
made it ugly.
Then some asshole invented a way to plate natural objects and I could
not st sell any more solid Silver pine cones if my life depended on it.
So I started making a 100 pieces of metaphysical, with quartz crystals,
a day. Almost as profitable as pine cones, but no as pretty. Now I was
just making junk, not even pretty junk, dragons and the like. Oh, my,
what junk, but my wife was happy. I thought about slitting my wrists,
but wanted to kill that damn inventor worse, so I stayed alive. By now I
bet you just want to kill me!
Boring, Boring years, year after year of yellow crap looking metal. To
make up for it "artist" starting to make stuff that no one really wanted
to wear. Oh sure, there is always the lady that will wear a ring that
covers her fist and stands two inch tall. But not enough of them to make
me a living. Still they were just ugly, not pretty. Oh, and some artist
even combined the ugly yellow junk with steel, stainless steel even. Now
that is pretty. Any time you can combine an age old rare, ugly yellow,
valuable metal with white metal that has almost no value. I thought, now
this is really pretty, real art, but you almost had to go to some fancy
school to learn how to drill holes, and the like to make the pretty junk.
Oh, back to the subject of those bastard beaders. I watched it coming.
Told my students what silly shit, this fad will die. After all they used
every possible color. Every kind of stones, and oh, no, they did it on
the same mother fucking pieces. I knew it would only last about a year.
May a bead store in every major town and that would be it. That was ten
years ago.
Then I will be a son of bitch, now everyone is wearing pretty junk that
has amethyst and emeralds in the some string. Some pieces have more than
five different colors in it. Those uneducated bitches making money,
forcing people to buy that crap. Holding a gun to their heads, those
beading, scheming witches. Most were women you know, and still are. Some
men do beading, but we would not admit. After all it is just putting
some ugly ass beads on string. Anyone can do that.
Ok, ok, I apologize. I did not know that we could cuss on the forum. I
can not even say "hell" on the lists that I own, so it is like my first
time on HBO. I just had to do it. I know it must have been more shocking
when a real artist does it. But it was fun, and I will never do it
again, cross my heart and hope to got to hell if I do.
Anyway, back to my debt of gratitude. We owe those da, da, darned
beaders a debt of gratitude for bring back "pretty" and colors in to
jewelry making. I hope it stays for the next 20 years. I hope I can just
die then, when ugly comes back into our profession: yellow metal
expensive metal that our customers found out was almost worthless when
they took their pretty piece of junk in to sell it. Oh, they found out
that diamonds would be worth about $20 a carat if we did not control the
market. So, they also figured out that jewelry for the most part and for
sure for the average person, was not an investment.
So, they are now buying pretty again. Oh my, now I have to confess. I
use a lot of rhinestones in my pretty junk now. Yes, yes, I am going to
say it, and I am crying now, I use a lot of snap tight heads. Please
don't hate me just because I make pretty things. The first piece I made
with rhinestones in it was when Rio Grande starting selling them in
their catalog I almost called them and cussed them out, after all they
were a jewelry catalog. I didn't call and they then started selling
beads those bast, bas, ba, bad people. They forced thousands of people
to buy that stuff. Anyway, I was making my wife a nice piece. Not junk,
oh, it was silver though. The center stone was a large blue topaz. I
know, it was cheap and pretty, pretty blue! But she likes it. I put two
8 mm aurora borealis (I don't know and don't care how to spell it)
rhinestones on each side of it, and then some more 6 mm blue topaz
stones on each side of it. It is a kind of dangle piece. When I gave it
ot her I thought she would see those rhinestones, and get mad at me. A
good joke I thought. But no, she liked it and asked what they were. I
said: "Well honey, they are ab rhinestones!". She said, "I thought so, I
have not seen those since you made that stuff during your Master Degree
work. You know that Rhinestone Cowboy junk that paid our bills that
year! I like it and you should make more to sell." I did and will keep
making it.
So, any way, back to the subject. Thank you beaders, thank you for the
bottom of my heart for bring back "pretty" to our trade again. And Flic
thank you for showing us the pretty piece you made. Too time consuming
to make it profitable at this point, but pretty. Make some cheaper stuff
that everyone can afford. I want to thank you too, because if you help
one snobbish art speaking "artieest" to hang themselves, you have done
the world a favor. Thank you and all beaders for not letting pompous
snobs tell us what we should think is pretty, and what is good art. If
you want to see an ugly yellow and white piece of jewelry go to:
http://www.abrasha.com And, you can even see the pretty little screw
holding it together.
I had a very bad year too. Oh I bought two new cars, but they are Kias,
I feel so cheap when I drive up to my classroom. And if you been to my
classroom in Estes Park you know how funny that is. Seriously it was a
very bad year, not much better now. I am hanging on to one employee, and
barely making payroll. Boohoo, oh, no, am have went back to casting pine
cones, they are pretty, and there is a good market for them again. As
Silver goes up, people think it is worth something again and they are
starting to sell good again. Who knew!
Sorry, Abrasha, I have spent a year away from this list because of you
making fun of people, especially beginners. I just rejoined to see what
the buzz is and here you go again. So when you tell someone, to go f---
themselves, I won't take it. So make stuff that people can buy, will
buy, or take up macramé. But don't cry about it. Either make stuff that
will make you a living or be a starving artist with your junk on display
in museums. By the way how much did they pay you for your jewelry. Anything?
Don Norris
LearnSilver.com
Marilee J. Layman
<mehu...@u.washington.edu> wrote:
>"What we need is to consider how to compete, and how to better market
>ourselves. We need to increase the number of consumers who understand the
>difference between really good work and kitschy or commonplace but still
>attractive work, and are willing to pay for the difference. And these
>people then need to be able to find us.
That's not me you're quoting, but you replied to my post.
mbstevens
< 3 page rant deleted >
*Plonk*
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Internet_troll
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plonk
Ted Frater
Well well well,!!
this gets more interesting by the day.
A triangle had 3 sides my son tells me, Ill have to draw one to check
it out
Anyway
in one corner we have don morris who makes what the market wants,#
in another corner we have Abrasha who makes what he wants but the market
doesnt want,
in the 3rd corner is where im at.
I make what I want the way I see the product out of the materials I
enjoy and the public want to buy it.
In fact they keep asking
"When are you going to have the Bronze age torques you made?
or the 3 colour twists in the viking style,?
or the New Rennaicense bracelets?
or the space age designs in titaniun?
or the " Dark ages" goth style?
or the heavy copper yes 1/2llb to 2 lb pounders( hot forged of course)
for bad reumatism, apart from the lighter ones with incised designs
struck while you wait
or the celtic link type with the special hinge design? Abrsha doesnt
belive I made.
or the berber ( ex maria teresa silver coins)solid silver woven type?
or the wrought iron (acid etched to bring out the grain structure) iron
age?
thats just the bracelet section.
then we go on to look at the buckles,
with minted fronts featuring 20 differnt designs from the great age of
steam right throught to the classical imagery of wedgwood type. all in
Bronze or guilding metal and sterling silver.
thats without any of the large bowls and dishes .
all forged in copper bronze guilding metal silver and titanium.
not your spun thin metal but real stuff up to 1/4in thick and 2ft dia.
then there are the minted comissions for medal, coins and a whole range
of silver and bronze buttons.
With commemorative plaques for major historical rallies and museums.
so dont dispair all you cradftsmen and women out there.
If I,now a mere Dorset rural bumkin can do it
so can you .
It is said here
Dorset born and Dorset bred
strong in the arm
and thick in the head.
you are what you make of yourself.
May the spirit of creativity be with you
amen.
Don Norris
interested in casting pewter at home for small sculptures and beads and
such. This method can be good for making models for carving originals
for molding. I have used it to "back up" my carving, so that if I am
making a wax, after putting some time in on it, I mold it. Then I can
inject wax into that mold and carve away from there. It makes it easy to
go back to those waxes to create a whole new idea.
Anyway here it is:
I cast a lot of pewter in to RTV silicone molds everyday. Well, my
employees do now, but we do up to 100 sculptures per day. Ranging in
size form a small 3 inch hummingbird to 12 inch sculptures. I use
Silastic E that I purchase from Krayden Dist. in Denver, Colorado:
1-303-280-2800. They have different size kits from one pound to 45?
pounds. This is about a 5 gallon pail for around $700.00. I just called
them. A 1.1 pound kit is $30.00 , a 9.9 pound kit is $215.00, and a 44
pound kit is $743.00 Ask for Angela, my sales rep and she is easy to
talk to. They will ship to Mexico too.
Silastic E will take up to 800 degrees according to them, but it will
ruin the mold according to me. I cast fine pewter (about 92% tin, 5%
antimony, and 3% copper) at about 600 degrees. I am guessing, because I
have a 50 pound electric melting pot for pewter and it only has numbers
on it. I have found over the past 35 years of casting Silver and pewter
that the temperature really makes very little difference. I just melt
the metal until it runs good, real good and cast.
The real important thing in casting pewter into rubber molds is to have
them vented with some small slits and even some times small reservoirs
in the mold it self, and vents that might go to the top of the mold.
Rarely it these vents need. I mold very complicated sculptures of
animals from time to time, and pride myself that I cast most in one
piece, where others would have to cast many pieces and then solder the
sculptures together. I only mention this because even with those mold I
rarely have to vent up to the top of the mold, or out of the mold.
I always, dust the mold with powdered graphite before casting. I get it
from Ace Hardware in large bottles. I dust on a lot and brush it off
with a 2 inch paint brush. This leaves a very fine dusting on the mold
surfaces. It is amazing that this dusting not only vents the mold, but
protects it. I have one mold that I have cast into for more than 2,000
times. If you do not use the graphite the mold will scorch, get hard,
and tear.
I also do a lot of gravity casting with pewter. You can gravity cast
almost anything with pewter, but the secret is to have a reservoir
larger than the piece, or pieces, that you are casting. This ensures
that the gravity will hydraulically force the metal into the details,
even a thin Hummingbird beak. It will also stop shrinkage because the
last part of cast to cool can be made to do all the shrinking. It will
also eliminate pitting and porosity in your castings. I mold the
reservoir right into each mold, or I have made molds of reservoir that I
tape onto the molds that I am casting to do the job. I tape most molds
up to about 12 x 12 inches with masking tape, then duck tape, or just
duck tape for casting. On larger molds up to 3 feet tall and 1 foot
square, I use a mold box that screws together around the mold.
A handy ladle is one that pours from the bottom. I do not know where to
find one any more. Mine are about 20 years old.
Hope this helps,
Don Norris
learnsilver.com
Don Norris
hope you have reported Abrasha, too. Anyway, I guess you are still mad
at me for the Mike's Doomed Dome way back when you attacked me for how I
was teaching, then the torch I used, then me personally. You were the
other reason I quit this forum. It wasn't enough that I took your little
challenge of putting two bezels on a dome, and it grew into Mike's
Doomed Dome, but I made it with the $18.00 torch from Ace Harware. So
then you made fun of it as being too heavy, even though my 7th grade
girls could use it. Then remember, you remarked the the $3.00 tank of
gas was expensive. You may not have seen Mike's Doomed Dome, but it is
on my website and then follow the links to the "Hard Solder Challenge".
I will be adding a link to your site so that everyone can see the fine
art jewelry that you make. So plunk and troll me again. Or you can just
go to http://silversmithing.homestead.com/mikesdome.html to see your
dome. http://silversmithing.homestead.com/solder5.html is what I ended
up making for you to learn from. You have inspired me to get out and
finish setting the stones. It might inspired me to go to Tucson, I was
going to skip it this year. But now I would like to go, take it and put
it on display. I will let you know where I will be so that you can come
and see it in person.
For those of you that would like to know why I teach Silversmithing with
only hard solder please visit my site.
Don Norris
LearnSilver.com
m3rma1d
>< 3 page rant deleted >
Aw c'mon, man... I don't think he deserved THAT.
I thought parts of that guy's posts were a laugh RIOT, and incidentally,
found those were the parts that were pretty fecking right-on.
And yeah, I realize that's just my opinion.. and no one has to agree with
it, nor his.
In fact, there were many parts of his post I didn't like. Like the harsh
remarks to Abrasha Yeah, I realize Abrasha comes off like a mean fucking
beast and hurts people's feelings. But I am in love with him, and so he can
do no wrong in my (starry) eyes.
But anyways, *blissful sigh*....Wait, where was I??
OH! Right...
I still don't think that other guy was a plonk-worthy troll.
-- m3rma1d
--
www.creativespill.com (Now over a year without updates!)
www.creativespill.com/a_few_new/pieces.html (They were new.. 10+ months
ago!)
mehughes
button on my email.
--
**************************************************
Martha Hughes
Forms Analyst
Patient Data Services
Harborview Medical Center
Box 359738
206-744-9054
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow
in Australia." (Charles Schultz)
"Marilee J. Layman" <mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote in message
news:eu2us1tpmb32s56lt...@4ax.com...
"Séimí mac Liam"
news:8sfus114d70kqpjlg...@4ax.com:
> http://silversmithing.homestead.com/mikesdome.html to see your
> dome. http://silversmithing.homestead.com/solder5.html
You're my hero.
--
Saint Séimí mac Liam
Carriagemaker to the court of Queen Maeve
Prophet of The Great Tagger
Canonized December '99
Charlie
(Well, not Abrasha-good, but good for me!)
Just remember Abrasha, some of us actually enjoy working with lampworked
beads, sterling silver, swarovski crystal etc. The enjoyment for me is
being able to make AFFORDABLE pieces that other people my age (and older)
can afford and wear and enjoy! As much as I enjoy your necklaces and rings,
I could never in a million years afford one. Some of us also don't have
access to the type of education that you've obviously had either.
Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a
professional?)
"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:581ds1tmh17bhlblg...@4ax.com...
On Thu, 12 Jan 2006 08:33:52 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>Peter W.. Rowe, wrote:
>>> On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
>>> <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>>>I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit
my
>>>>>wrists.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
>>>>>profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.
>>>>>
>>>>>Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
>>>>>necklace" shit.
>>>
>>>
>>> Sheesh.
>>>
>>> Get off your high horse, will ya?
>>
>>You right, my bad!
>>
>>Will just make small incision in earlobe for a little bloodletting.
>>
>>Abrasha
>>http://www.abrasha.com
No doubt this will inspire a new earring design... :-)
Peter
Don Norris
offer. Two cds for free. No, no shipping charges, no gimmicks, free,
just send me you address off list: dno...@frii.com
First cd: My first four lessons of my Beginning Silversmithing Class
Covers, tools and supplies, lesson on metals and solders, and lesson
four
is a tutorial on soldering and using only hard solder.
Second cd: My introduction of how I got started 35 years ago. No it is
not worth reading, but I wrote it to give my students confidence in what
I teach. I can not teach confidence, it has to be gained by working, but
I try to instill confidence in what I teach.
The reason I send it is that it has: "How to sell your Jewelry".
A book that I am writing and will eventually sell.
This cd is not edited, not spell checked, so if you find a four letter,
dirty word it is, for sure, a typo.
Just send me your address OFF LIST, please! dno...@frii.com or call me:
1-303-517-1068.
I offered the special deals below to the list members of my list, you
are welcome to take advantage of them too.
1. I made about 100 extra copies of my Lapidary Class by mistake when
over 200 were sold as a bulk buy on another list, but I made 300 for
$39.00. So, I am all but giving them away for $10.00 including postage.
It is a class that teaches you how to cut and polish any stone,
cabochons, by using only a $40.00 grinder from the hardware store.
Anyway if you want it, go to paypal an send me $10.00 and I will send it
with the other free cds.
2. If you visit my site and would like to order my Beginning
Silversmithing CD, or to paypal, send me $50.00 (normally $59.00 plus
$4.00 shipping) and I will send you the Beginning Silvering Class, the 2
free cds above, and the Lapidary Class.
3. Send me $100.00 and I will send you all the above, plus my $79.00
Advance Class, and a free copy of my newest class: "Lost Wax Casting",
$69.00 on my web site. That is over $250.00 worth of my classes.
By the way I call them classes because as you go through the lessons
you can ask any and all questions. Just call me with urgent one, e-mail
me the rest. I tend to answer e-mail more thoroughly because I have the
time and I send the answer to my other lists. Any and all questions!
That's it, no more apologizing. I am not going to do anything in the
future to apologize for, plon, I meant, promise!
If anyone has Mike Stevens' address, please send it to me too! I would
like to send him these for free too, but he plonked me (I found out what
that means! I thought it meant that I might die!), and I do not want
him to miss out.
Don Norris
LearnSilver.com, oh, and RockWraps.com
Peter W.. Rowe,
"MIGHT be an ad"? Um. Part apology, part ad. How's that? But it's enough a
part of the ongoing conversation that I allowed it. Just please don't, Don,
make too much of a habit of it, OK? Remember that minor bits of advertising in
a sig file at the end of an otherwise acceptable posting have always been
allowed, so there's one easy loophole. In this case, most of your post is the
almost/might be ad. Stretching things, sir (grin)
Peter
Ted Frater
>
> Charlie. (I'm in three galleries and counting... does that make me a
> professional?)
have the galleries paid you for the work?
or
is it on sale or return?
or
were they comissions from them?
Only if youve been at it at least a few years
and you do it full time
and you earn a living from it ,
and the galleries are buying from you,
then maybe you might be a professional.
If its on sale or return your giving the galleries items
to fill their shelf display case space at no cost to them.
only you
. If theve bought it your part of the way there.
Otherwise no.
>
>
>
Don Norris
Real, or enhanced by man?
Pretty or not?
Should we use it in our jewelry?
What is green quartz?
How is it different from green agate?
It is pretty, isn't it?
Anyone have some to sell? Cheap? Oh course!
Don Norris
Don Norris
OH, it was an ad for sure. I thought I would sneak it in before you
plonked or plunked me. I always "stretch things" as much as I can. It
will be the last though, if I post any more at all it will be only for
answering questions. I will even go after rude posters and my attackers
of list from this point on.
Peter, I probably respect you, and your knowledge, more than anyone on
the web. I would like to know about what you do, how you go started,
where in the world you are. Please, let us know about you and your work.
Only positive posts, and no ads,
Thanks,
Don
RUSTYSILVERART.COM
Abrasha
SNIP empty drivel
Well, isn't that the arbiter of bad taste Don "Hard Solder" Norris.
I continue to be amazed how anyone can say so little with so many words.
It won't be long now, before you start advertising your school I bet.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
mehughes
--
**************************************************
Martha Hughes
Forms Analyst
Patient Data Services
Harborview Medical Center
Box 359738
206-744-9054
"Don't worry about the world coming to an end today. It's already tomorrow
in Australia." (Charles Schultz)
"Charlie" <ne...@lowfidelity.NOSPAMorg.uk> wrote in message
news:p4fvs1dqsuh9cs82t...@4ax.com...
likedo
Just simple respect for each other and for each individuals
capabilities and knowledge would be nice !
We are all different but not one of us is superior to the other. We all
create differently and what we create will appeal to different people.
Isn't that a good thing ...wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same
likes and dislikes...it's what makes our life a challenge...
When looking around at other peoples creations , I might not like what
I see ...but I still have respect for the person and what they have
made.
There will always be someone out there who likes what you've made.
But as a store owner I know that a negative attitude doesn't sell stuff
!!
Remain positive , love what you make and have respect for what others
make ....bad vibes travel a lot faster and further than good ones ....
I suggest working on the good ones !
Marilee J. Layman
Bad pacing, poor rhythm.
Marilee J. Layman
wrote:
>I just joined this group ....what is happening to this world?
>Just simple respect for each other and for each individuals
>capabilities and knowledge would be nice !
>
>We are all different but not one of us is superior to the other. We all
>create differently and what we create will appeal to different people.
>Isn't that a good thing ...wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same
>likes and dislikes...it's what makes our life a challenge...
Do you normally teach kindergarten?
Of course some of us are superior to others in skills.
>When looking around at other peoples creations , I might not like what
>I see ...but I still have respect for the person and what they have
>made.
> There will always be someone out there who likes what you've made.
>But as a store owner I know that a negative attitude doesn't sell stuff
>!!
>Remain positive , love what you make and have respect for what others
>make ....bad vibes travel a lot faster and further than good ones ....
>I suggest working on the good ones !
>
m3rma1d
>I just joined this group ....what is happening to this world?
>Just simple respect for each other and for each individuals
>capabilities and knowledge would be nice !
>We are all different but not one of us is superior to the other. We all
>create differently and what we create will appeal to different people.
>Isn't that a good thing ...wouldn't it be boring if we all had the same
>likes and dislikes...it's what makes our life a challenge...
>When looking around at other peoples creations , I might not like what
>I see ...but I still have respect for the person and what they have
>made.
> There will always be someone out there who likes what you've made.
>But as a store owner I know that a negative attitude doesn't sell stuff
>Remain positive , love what you make and have respect for what others
>make ....bad vibes travel a lot faster and further than good ones ....
>I suggest working on the good ones !
GAH, HIPPIE!!!!!!!!!!
~goes into convulsions~
HareBall
news:da32t1tu23lka48eb...@4ax.com:
You haven't been around USNET long have you?
There are certain people that will run down most anything you post and
think they have the most wonderful things(even if they look like machine
pieces).
Charlie
full time by the end of the year if I can find a studio and get a couple
more galleries!
Charlie.
"Ted Frater" <ted.f...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:46h0t1l0alp0o5npo...@4ax.com...
Ted Frater
Bear in mind If you get your own studio, in the right place so
customers come to you, youll be in competition with your current
gallery outlets.
however if you design, make and market your own work in your own space
youll have all the work but youll make all the profit.
If you have your own studion full with your work it will create a better
impression than if your in a gallery with other craftspeople.
you need to be good at all the skills. you might just prefer to make
instead of marketing as well.
How do you see this way working for you?
In other words atre you up to it?
.
"Séimí mac Liam"
news:8fl3t19jq31lr5ic2...@4ax.com:
.....
>> I suggest working on the good ones !
>>
>>
>>
>
> You haven't been around USNET long have you?
> There are certain people that will run down most anything you post
and
> think they have the most wonderful things(even if they look like
machine
> pieces).
>
In Ireland they're called begrudgers.
Charlie
have to be on my own all the time! Living in deepest Wales means that I
won't be too much competition for my galleries anyway as they're spread
across the country at the moment. My Dad and I are looking at going into
business together to open an artist cooperative with a gallery run by the
artists. Not a huge money spinner, but I guess it's better to be happy and
surviving than miserable and poor!
Charlie.
"Ted Frater" <ted.f...@virgin.net> wrote in message
news:e775t1pi22sb2pqdo...@4ax.com...
Jesse
We all have the capacity to go for the jugular when we feel threatened,
our ego is offended, or even if we're just turned off by something. I'm
certainly no exception, so I'm writing this basically for myself, but
you can read it if you like.
It's a little known fact that humans tried unsuccessfully to
domesticate a skunk before they did a cat. ;-) First they taught him
not to use his scent glands indiscriminately. Then they trained him in
the arts and high culture and groomed him until he became well educated
and well respected among his peers for his many talents and wonderous
accomplishments.
But even when he was smiling and being all friendly and nice, he still
STANK, emitting a very subtle, but foul and smelly stink. He couldn't
help it anymore than being born with a white stripe down his back. And
that's why we have cats rather than skunks as pets! :-)
Whenever your selling jewelry, you're really selling yourself. So, it's
a good thing people aren't the same as skunks. We have the ability to
change our basic nature. By not acting on negative thoughts, that part
of our psychological "scent gland" will fade, grow weaker and demand
less attention from us; and thereby alienate and annoy far fewer
people.
-jdk-
"Rich" <RichardRader@
throw out.
It seems to me that the biggest obstacle in this situation is education of
the consumer. As the price of the piece is usually their biggest
consideration, I don't believe as much thought is given to the quality of
design, how well their purchase will hold up over time, or the comfort in
knowing that their piece of jewelry is a crafted work of art.
What I would propose is composition and posting of an additional FAQ,
reached through consensus of the professional jewelers in the group,
detailing the following:
1. Common myths and misconceptions that are propagated in the marketing of
jewelry in the retail outlets to goad toward a sale.
2. Shortcuts that are commonly made in the production of retail jewelry and
the long-term ramifications of them. (Poor channel setting, nickel-based
alloys, use of white gold over platinum, thin ring shanks, etc.)
3. Any other information that would enable the consumer to discern the
quality of his prospective purchase.
My ultimate hope would be that in the search for quality, beauty, and well
thought-out designs, the customer's search would inevitably lead them to
employing a professional's service.
I am a simple hobbyist with no sales experience, and I have always been
grateful to find advice here in the newsgroup. It really does break my heart
to see truly talented artists like Abrasha, as
well as all of the other gifted professionals, get caught in this situation.
I have a great deal of admiration for the professional jeweler. More to the
point, I admire anyone that has dedicated their life's work to creating
jewelry of both originality and lasting beauty.
Rich Rader
"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:164js1l27qnoh6tbg...@4ax.com...
On Sat, 14 Jan 2006 16:00:44 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry "Marilee J.
Layman"
<mar...@mjlayman.com> wrote:
<snip of a thought-provoking post>
So then.
Here's the question for the group.
How can someone like Abrasha, or other fine artists who's integrity and
skills
with their craft lead them to put quality first, and thus produce a really
high
end product, but in perhaps more limited quantitites, suceed in today's
marketplace? It's not enough to just have a good web site, since as anyone
who's looked at Abrasha's can see, he's done that part already. So what
else?
Peter Rowe
Charlie Johns
I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
read it with some regularity, and have learned more.
Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
necklace I am proud of]
Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but
unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn
a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try.
It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low
level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use
discarded CO2 cartriges.
The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the
feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.
Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the
news.
Venting session is closed
Charlie
"Peter W.. Rowe," <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote in message
news:p8sbs19ouljmlc30n...@4ax.com...
On Wed, 11 Jan 2006 22:02:59 -0800, in rec.crafts.jewelry Abrasha
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>
>>I think I'm going to hang myself now, or maybe I'll just quietly slit my
>>wrists.
>>
>>Oh no, I can't do that today, I have to make 60 chocolate covered
>>profiteroles for the school potluck tomorrow night.
>>
>>Oh well, I'll kill myself the day after tomorrow over this "pretty
>>necklace" shit.
Sheesh.
Get off your high horse, will ya? It's better than that, not deserving of
such
scorn and derision and you should know it.
1. She's not representing herself as a trained fine artist, trained
jeweler, or
much of anything else like that. She's a hobbyist enjoying putting some
things
together for her own enjoyment. Starting just from scratch, without other
training and no actual intention of doing this as some major career path,
does
this not count as an enjoyable and valid thing to do? I have a sister in
law
who sews. Pretty well. Her quilts are wonderful. But she's also made
ordinary
stuff, including for me one year, a bathrobe of micro fleece. Shitty as a
bath
robe, because the micro fleece won't absorb water to dry you off after the
shower. But instead, it's a very warm house coat for those chilly evenings.
Powder blue may not be my best color, but I like the thing, and it's maker
did
it with the best of intentions. So I don't kill myself over the lack of a
major
fashion label in this bathrobe of mine. And you shouldn't kill yourself
because
some eager beginner produces a reasonably basic but decently enough made
wire
wrap and bead necklace. yeah, it's not great art. But I'm sure she likes
the
look when she wears it, and I'm sure her friends agree. I've seen stuff
I'd
consider a whole heck of a lot worse get actually sold commercially.
2. it's a darn sight better than "paint by numbers" level stuff or a kit
built
from instructions. It may not be earth shaking, art world turning,
revolutionary design, but at least she's not just following some printed
instructions found somewhere. or at least I don't think she is, or at
least,
not totally... or I dunno... Still it's a lot better than some I've seen.
3. it's usable, and though not fine art, as decorative as any of the
commercially made similar costume pieces with which many ordinary people are
quite happy to decorate themselves. it's a lot more decorative and useful
than
the kitschy beaded teddy bears someone else posted. Those, arguably, are
not
even jewelry. This most certainly is.
4. The posting links to a plain jpeg image on an otherwise plain page, just
as
I've repeatedly asked posters to do. it does not link to some commercial or
semi commercial page on a yahoo group or something. Surely this following
of
the group rules should be worth at least *Some* brownie points... And
remember,
nothing in the group's charter or history suggests it's only for seasoned
pros.
Beginners at any level have always been welcome along with the professionals
and
anyone in between.
And to Flic:
Don't pay attention to Abrasha. he often seems to criticize beginners who
come
along hoping for approval or help but who's skills and training, both
technically and aesthetically, don't seem to meet the high standards he sets
for
himself. Especially when that beginner is working with really basic methods
like beads on wire, etc. He's well known on usenet for this attitude,
which
can be difficult to comprehend for those who actually know him, since in
person,
he's actually a really nice and generally polite fellow, not to mention a
top
notch jewelry artist, and one of the finer craftsmen I've ever met. It's
kind
of a keyboard version of road rage, I think. He'll disagree perhaps, but my
point is, don't let him scare you away or discourage you.
Yeah, your necklace won't win great awards as highly original art, but that
should surprise nobody, least of all you, given that you're new at this.
The
bit with double strands or more, or tassels in the middle, etc etc, have all
been done by other artists many times, for millennia. But that doesn't mean
it
doesn't still look nice, because it did millennia ago, and still does now.
The
color appears good on you, and you've not chosen a combination of colors
that
clash or something. So I'd overall agree with you that you did a nice job.
Now,
if I were doing it, I'd probably use actual gemstones, not glass beads. And
my
loops would be smaller and neater, and soldered shut or something, or I'd
come
up with some sort of much less visible joint or unusual mechanism design for
the
linkages. And of course, when done, there would be a few more zeros in the
price. So it goes. There are many such technical and design
possibilities,
many of which are within your capabilities even with limited tools and
equipment. But no matter. You've got time. Keep experimenting, one step
at a
time. And don't let the bad mouthed folks get you down. Get some good
books
on jewelry making and metal work. You can get some good ideas for some more
complex constructions that won't be so similar to everything other people
have
done. At the beginning, it's OK to mostly learn how to make your own
versions
of things others have done. But as quickly as you can, try to work out your
own
methods, so you're not just copying other peoples ideas you've seen. (I'm
not
saying you did this here, at least not intentionally. Just saying you
should
make an effort NOT to just do one yourself when you see something you like
from
someone else.)
Peter Rowe
who's indubitably stepping in something squishy with this post.
No matter. With the rain we've had here in Seattle since Christmas, soft
squishy ground seems the norm. And this time of year is slow enough I've
got
the time for some good entertaining yet silly discussions.
And to all. remember, personal attacks and flame wars are not allowed.
attacking ideas, or jewelry, is fine.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<cwse...@bellsouth.net> wrote:
>>Mr. Rowe,
>>I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
>>privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
>>read it with some regularity, and have learned more.
I'm glad to hear that. But one short bit of clarification. It's not MY
newsgroup. I'm only the moderator. UJsenet newsgroups are, by definition,
public domain and public property. I do not own it. I just run it, and do so
at the pleasure and request of the readers, as a volunteer, not an owner. it
may seem like it's mine, since all posts have to come through me. But in the
end, it's YOUR newsgroup.
>>
>>Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
>>necklace I am proud of]
Perhaps. But it's also the liveliest and bisiest conversation the group has had
in a good long while. nerves getting touched means issues are real. And that
often means not everyone is pleased. Sometimes, nobody is pleased. But even
so, sometimes ideas worth expressing get floated around, and even angry people
can sometimes learn something of use, if they calm down enough to try and be
objective about the issues.
>>
>>Mr. Abrasha is a talented man from what I see on his web site, but
>>unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
>>coddled by a master jeweler. Some of us have had to use other means to earn
>>a living and shiney things just keep calling us to try.
I should let him answer that, but I can assure you that coddling is the very
last word any of those masters or their students, would use to describe that
education. It's rigorous, highly competative, and a whole LOT of work to
complete. By the way, unlike here in the States, if you can get over to the
jewelry school in Pfortzheim, tuition is free (at least I think it still is.).
You'd need living expenses, but unlike schools here with high tuitions,
difficult to get into, there the state pays for the school. Easy to get in, not
so easy to stay in. Don't know if this is fully still the case, or whether
there are residency requirements now, but this is how it used to be. It ends up
being somewhat easier to go get that education than some people think. I know
folks who've gone over there on a shoestring budget, barely speaking any German,
who've found ways to make it work. All depends on how high you set your sights,
and how much you want it.
>>
>>It seems strange for him to feel threatened by competition from such a low
>>level after reading his episile on his website, even if he does use
>>discarded CO2 cartriges.
>>
You know, this illustrates an interesting difference between art, and the
mundane. You're referring to the CO2 cartridges as though this was some
demeaning material. The thing is, it doesn't matter much what material we use
to create art (or jewelery, whether art or not), what matters is the thought and
creativity behind it. It's the ideas, not the material, that can really make a
work unique and stand apart from the pack. Those of us who've gone to art
school, here in the States or in Germany or elsewhere, spent a lot of time
learning the history of art, and the history of our craft, as well as the
technique, in order that we'd not then go spending time reinventing the wheel
and calling it ours It was drummed into us that originality of thought is
important, and that without that originality, the work is either worth less,
maybe far less, or even worthy only of the dirision leveled at plagiaristic
works when in written form. The public readily accepts that this is bad when
an author copies the work of another, or a muscian copies the music of another
and tries to call it his (rather than an arrangement or something). Yet in
jewelry, many of these same people sometimes seem to even prefer works that are
staid and familar copies or reiterations of what's already been done, sometimes
countless times before. Some, even jewelers, including a few who've chimed in
on this thread, seem to think there's nothing new left to do, so that makes it
all OK. Those who've been trained in the arts, though, understand the
difference, and hold not just their own work, but that of others, to those
standards they've been taught.
And this creates problems. Since that means they're holding higher standards
than either the public, or many of their competitors. In the end, it can mean
that for all the high cost or hard work of a fine arts education, it can end up
almost being a commercial handicap, since if one is now bound to be original,
and works hard to avoid anything else, then one is playing within a smaller
field than the overall bunch of folks making things, and doing it with a bunch
of ethical inhibitions that their competition, and maybe even the public,
doesn't recognize.
it's a quandry in the art schools, who have trouble justifying the cost and time
of that education when the graduates thereof then seem to have a harder time
competing in the marketplace than those self taught folks who're really happy to
have learned the familiar stuff, and how to do this and that, and happily set
about mass producing the workt that the public already knows, and is happy to
buy, while the artist sits by with his body of work that he's agonized for years
to develope, selling less because the public isn't quite ready to be that
advanced in it's thinking. it's an oddity to the jewelry field, since in
fashion or music, new is gobbled up as quickly as creative minds can dream it
up.
Please note, and this is IMPORTANT. I'm not trying at all to imply that those
people with less formal educational backgrounds are any less entitled to make
whatever they wish, or have their work recognized. Most such people are working
as hard as anyone, and care about what they're doing. But it should be
recognized by all, that both parties are looking at this issue from their own
perspectives, and they're complex ones. The beginners get defensive over their
percieved lack of more formal skills, while the more highly trained folks get
defensive over their apparent lack of commensurate sucess in relation to how
hard they've worked to get where they are. Both bodies of work, and their
makers, are justified in their views, but both may be antagonistic towards the
others views, as we've seen here in this thread.
>>The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot. I get the
>>feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.
Nah. It's an interesting commentary by Picasso. We can learn insights into his
thought process from it. What Abrasha learned, he'll have to tell us himself.
Makes interesting reading. So does, by the way, if you can find it somewhere,
Salvadore Dali's discussion on what it takes to be a great artist. (by the time
he's done with his list of requirements, only one man in the universe, himself,
qualifies...) There are many interesting viewpoints on the nature of art.
Abrasha or others on this list can no doubt recommend many varied ones. All are
valid within the context of who wrote them. Few should ever be taken out of
that context, except for very carefully. This is such a case.
>>
>>Your how to comments to others have helped me and I will keep reading the
>>news.
I'm glad to have helped, as, I'm sure, are those many other users of this group
who also give freely. Including, often enough, Abrasha.
But it ocurs to me that perhaps, in addition to all the "How To" tips, perhaps
we should also now and then get into the "WHY DO" tips. Not just how to make
this stuff, buy why do whe do it. We talk a lot of techniques, and virtually
nothing about aesthetics. One thing this thread has made obvious is that there
is a broad range of opinions and levels of training regarding the aesthetics of
jewelry and jewelry design. This is not trivial stuff, by the way. I recall
in graduate school, perhaps the most intense classes were the seminar classes
where most of what we talked about were issues like this. Not how to make a
thing. But why make a given thing. WHAT was worth making, and what not. Why?
etc. like I said, gets intense. Very invigorating stuff too.
cheers
Peter
Abrasha
> Mr. Rowe,
> I have been interested in the lapidary arts for some time now and have been
> privilaged to meet and learn from some fine people. I found your newsgroup,
> read it with some regularity, and have learned more.
"your newsgroup"? Interesting way of putting this. Just in case you
did not know sir, this is Usenet. This is where the Net started so many
years ago. This is not a private bulletin board.
>
> Some of the things I learned I really didn't want to know. [the thread A
> necklace I am proud of]
What a crock and a lie! This thread has been going on for almost two
weeks now, longer than any thread over the past several years. And
obviously you have been reading it, voluntarily I presume. Or did
someone put a gun to your head to make you read it?
>
> Mr. Abrasha
Please don't call me "Mr." Abrasha. Makes me feel like a hairdresser.
> is a talented man from what I see on his web site,
thank you.
> but
> unfortunately we can't all go to school in Germany for two years and be
> coddled by a master jeweler.
You don't know what you are talking about. Coddled you say. It was
beaten into me, the German way! (The Prussian way?) Almost literally.
Some of my work as an apprentice, ended up in between my master's anvil
and his large forging hammer. If I didn't get it right the first time,
I got to do it over until I did get it right.
And btw, schooling in Germany (at least at the time) was free for me, as
a Dutch citizen, a member country of the EC.
My first employer after my apprenticeship and certification as a
goldsmith was the late Professor Klaus Ullrich. I had wanted to work
for him ever since my friend Alan Rosenberg, who worked for him, had
introduced me to him.
One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".
How's that for coddled?
The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.
"The work produced by students in the second year of the
Goldschmiedeschule in Pforzheim (where I went to school), is far
superior in craftsmanship than anything produced by goldsmiths in this
country who have been at the bench for 15 years." This statement was
made by a person who used to work at a jewelry gallery in the US, upon
seeing the work by students at that school, exhibited in the lobby of
the school.
If you don't believe that, I suggest you travel there and see for
yourself. Although I question your ability to see the quality in true
craftsmanship.
It is in fact a sad statement, that anyone who is older than maybe 3 to
5 years and out of diapers, would take the trouble to put a necklace
like that online, than take the trouble to subscribe to a newsgroup to
which (s)he has never posted before and then announce in the newsgroup
that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.
It took 5 hours. Well whoopeeee! It took me 300 hours to do this:
http://www.abrasha.com/slideshow/judaica/menorah%20lit.htm
SNIP
>
> The inclusion of "A Confession" really put the lid on my pot.
Huh, What does that mean?
> I get the
> feeling he should have signed it since it seems to express his ego so well.
Interesting how you chose to read Picasso's "A Confession", but
apparently did not bother to look at my "Process" pages, and/or my
"Video" page. Or chose not to mention it.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
HareBall
news:n6udt1pudob9khjul...@4ax.com:
<SNIPPED>
> One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
> after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
> show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
> work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
> "You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".
So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.
> How's that for coddled?
>
> The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
> apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.
Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD
William Black
"HareBall" <Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote in message
news:o46et11i92shdbr8c...@4ax.com...
> One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
> after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
> show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
> work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
> "You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".
So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.
---------------------
That's how real workshops work.
Jewellery making uses a series of medium and heavy engineering techniques on
a very small scale.
Because of this it tends to use engineering working practices.
Normal engineering working practice uses a number of highly skilled
craftsmen doing different parts of a single design.
A jeweller may be adequate at doing all the different parts of a single
design, but they won't be as good a polisher as a craftsman polisher who
does nothing else.
They may produce adequate castings, but they won't be as good as those
produced by a professional caster.
Doing everything yourself is always a compromise. To get the same results
as a specialist takes longer, with the concomitant rise in costs.
A 'one man band' has little choice. When you are big enough to employ
people then you employ specialists and get what are called 'economies of
scale'.
In the larger jewellery houses the designer works as a CAD station and
probably never picks up a file or a graver from one week to the next.
A large part of the current graduate programme at the Central Jewellery
School in the UK is the use of CAD systems for the design of jewellery.
--
William Black
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe.
Barbeques on fire by the chalets past the castle headland
I watched the gift shops glitter in the darkness off the Newborough gate
All these moments will be lost in time, like icecream on the beach
Time for tea.
Abrasha
> Abrasha <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote in
> news:n6udt1pudob9khjul...@4ax.com:
>
> <SNIPPED>
>
>>One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
>>after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
>>show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came to
>>work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something like,
>>"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".
>
>
> So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
No, I'm not saying that at all. I made the entire bracelet in question.
I had just screwed up a part of it, which I had to do over again.
Yo don't seem to even have a basic understanding of how art is produced.
If you think that artist, be it painters, sculptors or goldsmiths all
execute their all of their own designs you are woefully uneducated and
ignorant.
I suggest you hit the history books and read a bit about Rembrandt,
Cellini, Chagall and many others throughout history.
> If it was his why did you make anything for it?
Because he designed more than he could produce himself with his own two
hands. He worked the same way artists have worked for many centuries.
> Don't sound to me like he
> had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.
>
You are an ignoramus of biblical proportions, who talks of things he
knows absolutely nothing about. Klaus Ullrich was one of Germany's most
important post world war II jewelry innovators and designers. He was
held in the greatest regard by all his peers, and students.
BTW, Rembrandt was relying on others to make his art, as well as many
other artists throughout history.
>
>
>>How's that for coddled?
>>
>>The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
>>apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz at the time was legendary.
>
>
> Yeah and now they build Chryslers. BFD
>
It is a big fucking deal! Because it shows the incompetence of the
American society to produce anything of value and quality any longer.
And a lot of it relates to craftsmanship and the production of crap like
what this thread is all about.
But why would you care, after all you shop at Wallmart, where everything
is cheap. The trouble is, that America has sold it's soul to Wallmart,
where pretty soon, if not already, you can buy that "pretty necklace"
for even less that the "proud" maker charges for it.
It used to be Germany and Japan. Now it's China. Did you read the
paper yesterday. If you haven't noticed, it said that Henry Ford rolled
over in his grave. Or was it something about 30,000 people losing their
jobs?
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
m3rma1d
>So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
>If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
>had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.
You cannot be this ignorant, PLEASE tell me I'm dreaming
Go read a goddamned book, will you?
-- m3rma1d
--
To reply in email, carefully remove my panties.
Kendall Davies
>So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other artist's art.
>If it was his why did you make anything for it? Don't sound to me like he
>had any talent if he was relying on you to make HIS art.
Sorry Larry your just showing how little you know about art and how it has
been produced for hundreds of years. If your going to attack someone like
that you really should make sure you know what you are talking about.
Great artists have always used assistants, aprentices and pupils to help in
the production of their work.
examples in no particular order are: Michael Angelo, Leonardo da Vinci,
Rubens, Goya, Cezanne, Monet, Manet, Renoir, Constable, Turner, Jasper
Johns, Henry Moore, Anthony Caro, Raphael, Andy Warhol, etc. etc. etc.
All these artists used assistants in much the same kind of way as Klaus
Ullrich used Abrash and people like him. Its not a secret, these artists
weren't passing of their assistants' work and ideas as their own. The only
people who don't know about it are those who have a very small knowledge
about art, how it is produced, its history and so on.
I don't know much about sport of any kind, still less about American based
sports like Baseball. I've heard about Babe Ruth and without a book or the
help of Google that's as far as I can go.
Now I think I have every right to say that I think baseball is not
interesting to me. (actually I don't have any views about it one way or the
other.) However if I say that I think that baseball players are a bunch of
talantless guys who have trainers and coaches and people who talk tactics to
them and watch their diet and do all the difficult clever stuff then not
many people, especially those who know about baseball would have very little
respect or interest in what I had to say from then on. That's what you just
did.
Klause Ullrich showed how much integrity he had by the way he insisted on
Abrasha doing the work again. That's rather like an architect insisting on
things being done the way he designed them. It doesn't mean that an
architect is without talent because he can't lay bricks or doesn't do the
plumbing.
Your remark was a cheap shot followed by another one about BMW. That one
proved you didn't read what Abrasha said in his posting either.
>The bottom line is. Germans produce great craftsmen. The
>apprenticeship program at Mercedes Benz AT THE TIME was legendary.
For what its worth, I think some of the things Abrasha says are way over the
top, even cruel at times often offensive, but he, and the person who taught
him, deserve more than cheap shots like this.
Kendall
"Séimí mac Liam"
> then announce in the newsgroup
> that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.
>
And yet you are seemingly so insecure as to feel the need to
denigrate someone so pathetic. Doesn't that make you feel oh so
superior. What harm does it do you to have infantile effort given a
little head patting encouragment?
Marilee J. Layman
>It is in fact a sad statement, that anyone who is older than maybe 3 to
>5 years and out of diapers, would take the trouble to put a necklace
>like that online, than take the trouble to subscribe to a newsgroup to
>which (s)he has never posted before and then announce in the newsgroup
>that (s)he is proud of his (her) accomplishment.
It would have been entirely appropriate in rec.crafts.beads, so it's
not all newsgroups.
HareBall
news:8tggt1ta7037kvkf3...@4ax.com:
Why so I can be as smartassed as you. Talk about ignorant, if you are the
one making this stuff, why would you want someone else claiming your work
as his. Where I come from this is called plagerism.
Oh and by the way, I looked at your website. Not impressed with the photos
or jewelry.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote:
>>Why so I can be as smartassed as you. Talk about ignorant, if you are the
>>one making this stuff, why would you want someone else claiming your work
>>as his. Where I come from this is called plagerism.
>>Oh and by the way, I looked at your website. Not impressed with the photos
>>or jewelry.
Larry,
It's painfully clear that you don't fully understand the nature of the
relationships going on here.
Artist design the work.
Artist either makes it, or has it made, or gets help making parts of it, or some
combination thereof.
The key point is that the design work, and the original thinking behind the
piece, is the work of the artist, the guy in charge. The hand work is the
craftsmanship involved, not the artistry.
In the case of Abrasha's former situation, he was an the same as an employee.
He did that mans work for two reasons. One, is that although that designer and
artist could easily have done the work himself, for efficiency sake, he had
employees or aprentices. These people then did the work under that man's
direction. The designs were not Abrasha's but were those of the artist, who
then rightfully put his own name or hallmark on the work. The artist gains
efficiency by having more than just his own hands at work on his designs. In
most such situations, the process, even when done by the emplyee or apprentice,
is tightly controlled and monitored by the artist. The craftsperson is
following his given directions as closely as possible. Thus there is no issue
of plagiarism on the part of the artist. The craftsperson does not claim the
work as his own art work, only that he had a hand in it's production. This is
rather like an author who has a secretary type his work from his handwritten
manuscript. There is no question of who's creative work it is, even if the
hands that actually type the thing are not the authors.
You ask why a craftsperson would do this sort of work? Sheesh. That's obvious.
It's a job. You get paid for it. Plus, if an apprenticeship position, you get
the experience of working under the direction of the more experienced master
craftsman. it's great training. You're not doing your own work, but you sure
are learning a lot, and you get paid for it.
To further illustrate. In a number of fine jewelry stores around the country,
you can find fine "designer" jewelry by Brian Sholdt, of Sholdt designs in
Seattle. (www.Sholdtdesign.com). in the "about us" link you'll see Brian and
Dusty Sholdt, the two brothers who own the place, and Brian's son Tyler, who's
learning the ropes of the business. Tyler has hardly ever picked up an actual
tool, but handles sales, marketing, office tasks, management stuff, and the
like. Nice kid. Dusty handles the commercial trade work side of the business,
which does trade shop work for other jewelry stores around town. He has a
little bit of bench work experience, enough to understand the process, and he's
great at managing that end of the business, dealing with customers, and pricing
jobs, etc. Brian is the designer. The firms line of jewelry, which you can see
on the web page, is almost all his design work. His bench experience is mostly
some wax carving experience, and now, learning to run the new CAD/CAM milling
system, so he's still carving waxes. He too understands the process fully, but
is not, himself, a metal working craftsman. Not pictured or mentioned at all on
the web site, are the other dozen or so folks who work there.
Of which, I'm one, as you may by now have guessed. We handle the actual
production of the work, under the supervision of the Sholdt brothers, who direct
the design work. While we, who produce the work, may suggest alterations and
changes and suggestions to improve a design or the process, we don't do this
without checking first with Brian, at least not on his line of work, or Dusty,
on jobs being done for the trade shop side of the business. My own particular
niche in the business is as a specialist in hand made items, especially in
platinum or 18K gold. This includes limited edition things, some things we make
for the line that simply are better to make individually by hand instead of
casting, and the true custom one of a kind items, both for the "line" and for
specific customers. I have a fine and extensive arts training, holding a
master of fine arts degree from Tyler School of art in Philadelphia, and other
degrees and experience too. My training and ability as an artist makes it
possible for me to fully understand what Brian or another designer of a piece
I'm making, intends, and to properly interpret their idea to produce what they
had in mind. The designs are Brians, and it is his trademark that goes on the
work when I'm done, not mine. When I feel satisfaction over the job I've done,
it is not satisfaction over my own great artistic production, but for my
craftsmanship in executing the work. Even though Brian probably could not have
sat down at my bench and done the work with his own hands, not having quite my
skills, the work remains his art work. This is the industry norm, and the norm
in much of the art world. While there is nothing to say an artist cannot do his
own work, and many do all or part of it, in many of the branches of the fine
arts, and especially the so-called "crafts", it's common for an artist,
especially once successful and established, to have a workshop of other people
doing some or all of the actual production work. Nobody is committing
plagiarism here, unless of course Brian is copying the work of someone else in
his designs.
Now, you'll wonder why do I, with all my training, do this work for Brian
instead of establishing myself on my own and doing my own designs and art work?
Well, for one, I've proven to myself several times that I'm a lousy businessman,
and not much better as a salesman. I DO my own art work, when I come home to my
home workshop, but I don't make much money at it, partially because my output
isn't that much (hell, I'm often too tired when i come home to want to go
downstairs and make yet more jewelry, even if it IS my own designs), and partly
because I'm simply not much good at marketing and promoting my work. So I'm
just fine with working for someone else. It provides me with some things I
cannot provide for myself quite as well, were I self employed. Good health
insurance is one key one, for example (and a very big part of why my career took
this particular path instead of learning the business and marketing stuff). As
an insulin dependent diabetic since the age of 16, I simply cannot, and never
have been able to not, safely exist without good health insurance. Without it,
I'd have been bankrupt or dead several times over allready. And until recent
years, it has always been almost impossible for me to even find insurance
offered to me outside of an employee benefit package from an employer. Even
now, with newer laws making it possible for me to buy coverage if I had to,
what's available is less good coverage, and astronomically priced. In
addition to the health coverage, I also gain a weekly reliable paycheck. Not a
great one, but a reliable one. There whether or not the firm sells a bunch of
jewelry that week. I kinda like that security. And other usual emplyee
benefits. I'm not getting rich by any means. But I'm able to own my own home,
and live my life. This works fairly well for me. And frankly, during the day,
it's kind of nice to be working alongside a bunch of other professionals, rather
than working alone in my own workshop all the time.
At work, I'm a craftsman, not an artist. At home, when I choose, I'm both an
artist and a craftsman. When doing work totally of my own design, for whatever
reason, I consider myself an artist, and sign my work as such. But like at
work, some of what I do when on my own time, is work for other artists. These
are often fine craftspeople and fine artists, but perhaps some aspect of the
craft is something they are not specialists at. One common example is stone
setting. I'm a rather good stone setter. Many artists doing jewelry work are
not specialists at stone setting, so they'll design and make the piece and then
have some specialist set the stones for them. Another example is technical. i
happen to be the proud owner of a laser welder. It's capable of some types of
joining that conventional methods cannot do. Some local artists who've not sunk
a second mortgage into the cost of a laser welder, instead pay me to do it for
them. The result is an improvement in the end quality of the work for the
artist, and financial gain for me. I'm quite happy to supplement my work
derived income by "outside" work of this sort, and the artists, some of them
very fine jewelers and recognized artists in their own right, are happy to
employ my help in these aspects of their work. And when I'm not doing any of
the above, I'm your newsgroup moderator...
Abrasha, when working for professor Ullrich, enjoyed the same sort of
relationship. He got paid, and he learned a lot, valuable experience that
clearnly shows up in the precision and skill of his current work, which IS his
own. . Under professor Ullrich, He made art, but not his own art. and that's
quite OK. It's the way it often works. both parties to the relationship
benefit from it. Nobody is committing plagiarism on any level in this sort of
arrangement.
Peter Rowe
HareBall
news:0tggt1t925mk9ppd7...@4ax.com:
> HareBall wrote:
>> Abrasha <abr...@abrasha.com> wrote in
>> news:n6udt1pudob9khjul...@4ax.com:
>>
>> <SNIPPED>
>>
>>>One day, a few days after I had received a DM .25 raise, and the day
>>>after I had screwed up a part of a major bracelet he had to take to a
>>>show in Duesseldorf, for which he was to leave in a few days, I came
>>>to
>
>>>work in his shop and found a note on my bench. It said something
>>>like,
>
>>>"You last chance to get it right. You screw up again, you're out".
>>
>>
>> So basically you are saying you made the parts for some other
>> artist's
> art.
>
>
> No, I'm not saying that at all. I made the entire bracelet in
> question.
> I had just screwed up a part of it, which I had to do over again.
>
> Yo don't seem to even have a basic understanding of how art is
> produced.
I just know that if I am going to claim something as mine, I am going to
make it myself.
You seem to like living here.
If hitlers homeland is so wonderful why don't you take your ass back.
> But why would you care, after all you shop at Wallmart, where
> everything is cheap. The trouble is, that America has sold it's soul
> to Wallmart, where pretty soon, if not already, you can buy that
> "pretty necklace" for even less that the "proud" maker charges for it.
So I guess you never go places to get the best value for your dollar?
Where do you buy the things you need for day to day living? Personally I
haven't been to Walmart for quite awhile, but if they theyu have the
best price for what I need that is where I am going to go. I think that
Sam Walton was a very good business man. So good in fact that he was
able to leave this earth and the ones inhereting his fortune are in the
top 10 richest people in this country. What are you going to leave
behind when you go? A few pieces of jewelry that you yourself have said
you can't sell?
>
> It used to be Germany and Japan. Now it's China. Did you read the
> paper yesterday. If you haven't noticed, it said that Henry Ford
> rolled over in his grave. Or was it something about 30,000 people
> losing their jobs?
Then you better run home to the homeland, so you have someone that wants
your junk.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote:
>>
>>I just know that if I am going to claim something as mine, I am going to
>>make it myself.
>>
>>
think of it this way, dude. If I make jewelry, no doubt I'm making it using
tools in my hands to manipulate the metal. An employee is merely another tool,
perhaps a more capable one, being manipulated by the designer.
Now, if you've got a problem with tools being anything more complex than a pair
of pliers, how do you feel about a lathe, where much of the precision is gained
because of the tools inherent precision over doing it by hand with a file and
saw? or how about extending the tool even further to the use of CAD/CAM
technologies? Some of the most respected fine arts programs in the arts
schools today are exploring the use of computer aided design and manufacturing.
In these technologies, artist manipulate keyboards and mice and software.
Machines then produce the objects, often with minimal actual work by the artist.
These people are justly proud of their work too, even though a machine did most
of the actual production under the control of a computer. For examples of some
fine work being done, even at just the student level, this way, go see the web
site at Tyler School of art (my old alma mater, which has now converted their
graduate level training program almost totally to CAD/CAM and rapid prototyping
technologies. http://www.temple.edu/crafts/ Another exampe is the web site for
the 'virtual tangibles" show, held in conjunction with last years SNAG
converence. Fine work in CAD/CAM embraced by the metals community as work of
their own people and philosophy, even if much of it is no longer made of actual
metal. The exhibitors range from long time pioneers and established artists in
the field, to recent student graduates in the field. www.VirtualTangible.com
So tell me, Larry, how is it any different for an artist to emply a hand tool,
or a complex tool like a computer and RP machine, or an even more complex tool
like an employee, to make their work? The artist is still the brain behind the
idea and the design.
You are free to prefer to do all your own work yourself. But please understand
that the art world in general, and the jewelry world in particular, don't agree
with your apparent opinion that work made with the assitance of others is any
less valid.
>>
>>You seem to like living here.
>>If hitlers homeland is so wonderful why don't you take your ass back.
>>
>>
Oh Please. Grow up. You know, the newsgroup's rules prohibit direct personal
attacks. But statements like this sorely tempt me to make an exception for
those wishing to reply to junk like this. This is the kind of garbage that
makes me wonder whether you're posting here for real, or more as a Troll.
>>
>>Then you better run home to the homeland, so you have someone that wants
>>your junk.
More garbage, unworthy of a serious discussion on the merits of an artists work.
This is the kind of garbage that tends to give Americans a bad reputation in the
minds of the rest of the world. Well suited to redneck late night comedy shows,
perhaps, but not to a serious discussion on the nature of art of jewelry work.
This is some seriously immature thinking. Defensive, argumentative, and makes
assumption that somehow Germany is some lesser place to be. In fact, their
history and heritage in the arts is millenia long, and public awareness of the
arts in europe is far higher than here in good old redneck backwoods U.S.A.
It's a shame to find U.S. attitudes represented by statements like this, when in
fact, the U.S. is also home to a very many fine artists and well educated arts
patrons and teachers, most of whom would not likely wish to have much to do
with anyone displaying this sort of attitude.
OK. I'm beginning to dance around the limits of the same newsgroup restrictions
I'm instead supposed to enforce among all of you guys.
Please, Larry, don't tempt me any more. Anger isn't good for my health. And
you're making me angry with this crap you're spewing.
(Please note, regarding personal attacks, that I've tried hard in all this, to
attack only the statments and ideas expressed. Not the person. For those of
you wishing to respond to this type of thread, follow the same guidelines
please, to make my job as moderator easier. Attack ideas and statements, not
the people behind them. That keeps you within the bounds of the group charter.
No flame wars, but philosophical debates, no matter how heated, are still on
topic.)
Peter Rowe
Abrasha
>
> (Please note, regarding personal attacks, that I've tried hard in all this, to
> attack only the statments and ideas expressed. Not the person. For those of
> you wishing to respond to this type of thread, follow the same guidelines
> please, to make my job as moderator easier. Attack ideas and statements, not
> the people behind them. That keeps you within the bounds of the group charter.
> No flame wars, but philosophical debates, no matter how heated, are still on
> topic.)
>
> Peter Rowe
With all due respect Peter, when one is dealing and debating with a
Neanderthal, personal attacks are the only hope for your survival. In
the real world as well as in news groups. Otherwise, they will just
kill you. Every time and all the time. It's the law of the jungle.
You can't escape it.
Since you are not willing to allow that, the only other alternative is
to just let it go. Get out of the way and let the beast roar.
Eventually it will pass.
You are not going to convince this intellectual lightweight, whose belt
clearly doesn't go through all his loops, of anything, or make him
change his feeble mind about anything.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
mbstevens
> If hitlers homeland is so wonderful why don't you take your ass back.
That Godwinizes the thread. You lose the debate automatically.
http://encyclopediadramatica.com/index.php/Godwin's_Law
HareBall
news:c46ht1lprpri7r33g...@4ax.com:
I would rather be a neanderthal, than an asshole to people asking for
help.
HareBall
news:k46ht1p4v75v1ur2b...@4ax.com:
I just noticed that he likes living in the land of the free, where we can
mention hitler without going to jail for it.
HareBall
You tell me not to attack someone who is attacking me. I see, it is O for
him to call names, but not for anyone to retaliate. You can suck up to this
asshole all you want, but I don't like someone as prtentious as this
telling people their work is junk just because he doesn't like it. He is
still the jerk and buffoon I thought of him as to begin with.
My work here is done.
Goodbye.
HareBall
news:c46ht1lprpri7r33g...@4ax.com:
I would rather be a neanderthal, than an asshole to people asking for
help.
--
Larry S.
TS 52
HareBall
> HareBall wrote:
I just noticed that he likes living in the land of the free, where we can
mention hitler without going to jail for it.
--
Larry S.
TS 52
Peter W.. Rowe,
Yup. But moderated newsgroups are not entirely the same playing ground as
general free speech. And nobody's sending you to jail.
By the way, just in the interest of accuracy, I'm pretty sure that Germany was
not hitler's actual homeland. He was Austrian as I recall.
Peter W.. Rowe,
Now on this count, at least, I'm in full agreement with you.
Peter W.. Rowe,
<Hare...@SPAMSUCKScomcast.net> wrote:
Well, and this sort of escalating interchange is what gets called a flame war,
which I'm supposed to prevent. Figuring out just what crosses the line and what
does not, who's justified and who's not, who fired the first shot and thus
maybe less deserves the right to respond (not an inherant right, but that odd
grey area where I have to try to play fair, sometimes without much sucess). I'm
really not trying to suck up to anyone, though some folks will always disagree
with anything I do. You do not, for example, see the posts of Abrasha's that I
may have rejected. Only what I've limited from you (so far, nothing). And
it's difficult sometimes, to seperate what's allowed from what's not. Calling a
poster a neanderthal is probably not, and I should have blocked that post
(sorry). But calling a posters statement primative or dumb or whatever, while
still an attack, is then attacking the idea, not the person. It's a fine line,
difficult sometimes to discern, and sometimes feels just the same to the person
on the recieving end of such criticism. And even this is a somewhat muddy area
for me. Easy to judge in retrospect, after having seen what replies a post
generates. Sometimes not so easy to judge when I first see it. I try to be
conservative, only rejecting the worst and most obvious examples of abuse of the
policy, but trust me, it's not easy to always be right, especially when any
discussion that gets interesting seems to have some disagreement involved.
It's likely that I've let this go too far, and should have clamped down on it
more in the beginning. I'd kind of hoped that the discussion would evolve into
something possibly interesting. It almost tried to. The problem we've run
into in this case is that for one thing, you, objecting to Abrasha's attitude
and response to a newbies posting, chose to take your own negative response in
directions totally and completely apart from the issues driving Abrasha's
response, which he'd tried to enlighten us on. Those were real issues worth
discussing, as they affect us all. When you steered the discussion away from
that into attacking Abrasha's training background or implying that his training
amounted to worthless plagiarism of someone elses work, or something like that,
or that his background somehow had something to do with Nazi heritage, (just
where in the hell did THAT come from?) you took the discussion from useful to
pointless. It's at that point that I should have stopped this thread, I think.
That was when the criticisms and issues became really personal...
My apologies to the group for not having stopped this garbage earlier.
Further posts to this thread will have to be back on track with a useful, non
personal, non aggresive nature to be allowed. Time we all got back to
business...
Peter
Al Balmer
<rec.craft...@earthlink.net> wrote:
Yet another remarkably patient reply. I admire your ability to do
this, but can't emulate you. Mr. "Hareball" has provoked a sad thing -
my very first killfile entry for this newsgroup. He has contributed
nothing but ill will, and I have not even learned anything from the
discussion he has fomented.
--
Al Balmer
Sun City, AZ
arnold
> It's likely that I've let this go too far, and should have clamped down on it
> more in the beginning. I'd kind of hoped that the discussion would evolve into
> something possibly interesting. It almost tried to.
It has been interesting. I've copied two posts to send to friends who
are not subscribed yet to this newsgroup. The article by Abrasha
concerning his education in Germany and your post regarding your
education and work environment. I was interested in and impressed by both.
arnold
.
m3rma1d
>> You cannot be this ignorant, PLEASE tell me I'm dreaming
>>Go read a goddamned book, will you?
>Why so I can be as smartassed as you. Talk about ignorant, if you are the
>one making this stuff, why would you want someone else claiming your work
>as his. Where I come from this is called plagerism.
Personally, I don't work in production, nor do I have others producing my
work.
However, it's where the work is (Just ask my dad what I *should* be doing)
Not just that....
Oh, man... nevermind, dude.
>Oh and by the way, I looked at your website. Not impressed with the photos
>or jewelry.
I don't really give a fart. You carerd enough to comment, and that's good
enough for me!