How to melt a penny
Muso
1982, and also for those 1982 pennies which will show zinc when scored
on their edge with a single light stroke of a flat, fine-toothed file.
First, score the penny on the top, and, if it shows zinc, on the
bottom. Next, hold the penny in some locking forceps. Now, heat the
penny with a propane torch. No oxygen is required, and no forced air
is required. Zinc will fume easily, so don't overheat. Under the
penny, you should have put a bucket of water, which is why directions
should be read beforehand! ;-). Wear safety glasses and gloves.
Every few seconds, give the foreceps a slight whach on the edge of the
bucket. After about a minute, the zinc core will plop down into the
water with an audible sound, and then the copper shell will begin to
turn red, melt, and oxidize.
It is illegal to melt pennies. If it was not, the pennies would all
disappear, because they would be melted down by those who have no
interest in maintaining the government's penny-sized zinc-ingot
program for recreational jewelers. Support the penny!
Peter W. Rowe
<MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote:
>>It is illegal to melt pennies. If it was not, the pennies would all
>>disappear, because they would be melted down by those who have no
>>interest in maintaining the government's penny-sized zinc-ingot
>>program for recreational jewelers. Support the penny!
First, I'm not sure what this post had to do with jewelry, other than the word
in that last line. But whatever. If one is sufficiently bored, one can be
amused by all sorts of interesting investigations, such as how to destroy a
coin. Rolling mills are good for this too. And in these tough economic times,
melting a penny for your evening's entertainment is cheaper than going out to
dinner and a movie. Getting your date to share your enthousiasm might be a
problem, but at least one is saving money. In sort of a money destroying way.
Interesting irony there. Oh, and don't try this method with those world war 2
vintage irony pennies. You'd need more than a propane torch to melt that irony.
(grin.)
However, one point of contention. The zinc cored penny was developed because
copper prices had gone up enough so there was more than a penny's worth of
copper in the coin, thus creating the temptation to melt em. So far as I know,
the cost of the zinc in the current penny is still not yet a penny's worth, so
there's no strong incentive to melt the things down, other than simply the
thrill of melting something... correct me if I'm wrong, of course. But zinc
is still pretty cheap, and you can make a LOT of pennies from a pound of zinc...
Peter
Abrasha
>
> It is illegal to melt pennies.
So, why are you going out of your way to explain how to melt a penny?
BTW, your method results in a zinc contaminated copper melt, unsuitable
for use in gold alloys.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
> Muso wrote:
>
>> It is illegal to melt pennies.
>
> So, why are you going out of your way to explain how to melt a penny?
>
> BTW, your method results in a zinc contaminated copper melt, unsuitable
> for use in gold alloys.
>
Well, while I cannot vouch for anyone's manipulation of US coins (and
more particularly paper currency) it's my understanding that melting,
stretching, cutting,soldering, etc. would only be illegal if it were
proven to be for 'fraudulent' purposes. Of course, it doesn't mean you
couldn't get arrested, held or otherwise inconvenienced. But i doubt
melting any of our coins is illegal.
Now making a mold and CASTING them........yeah, that's probably going to
get you put in PMITA prison.
Carl
Muso
wrote:
> On Mon, 06 Apr 2009 22:12:14 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Muso
>
> >>It is illegal to melt pennies. If it was not, the pennies would all
> >>disappear, because they would be melted down by those who have no
> >>interest in maintaining the government's penny-sized zinc-ingot
> >>program for recreational jewelers. Support the penny!
>
> First, I'm not sure what this post had to do with jewelry
Hello Peter,
and thank you for keeping such a high signal-to-noise ratio with this
group. Well, as you have pointed out, zinc is an "irony" metal, and
although jewelers are known for working precious metals, they also are
no strangers to iron. For example, jeweler's anvils are best made of
steel, although iron and zinc can be considered as substitutes,
especially among those of us who are keen on making our own tools.
Jeweler's vices and jeweler's lathes also come to mind here, as well
as a long list of other tools which are specifically made for the
jeweler.
, other than the word
> in that last line. But whatever. If one is sufficiently bored, one can be
> amused by all sorts of interesting investigations, such as how to destroy a
> coin. Rolling mills are good for this too. And in these tough economic times,
> melting a penny for your evening's entertainment is cheaper than going out to
> dinner and a movie. Getting your date to share your enthousiasm might be a
> problem, but at least one is saving money. In sort of a money destroying way.
> Interesting irony there. Oh, and don't try this method with those world war 2
> vintage irony pennies. You'd need more than a propane torch to melt that irony.
> (grin.)
>
> However, one point of contention. The zinc cored penny was developed because
> copper prices had gone up enough so there was more than a penny's worth of
> copper in the coin, thus creating the temptation to melt em. So far as I know,
> the cost of the zinc in the current penny is still not yet a penny's worth, so
> there's no strong incentive to melt the things down, other than simply the
> thrill of melting something... correct me if I'm wrong, of course. But zinc
> is still pretty cheap, and you can make a LOT of pennies from a pound of zinc...
>
> Peter
Yes, Peter, in fact, a person can make more than one-hundred and
eighty pennys from a pound of zinc. So far, though, I have not found
anyone except the government who makes zink pieces in penny sizes.
And, of course, with pennys, there is no paying for shipping, waiting
for shipping, and so on. This gives the government ingots the edge.
You are correct about the reason why the government began making zinc
pennys. However, it was evidently just recently that the government
outlawed the melting of zinc pennys for the same reason. This, in
itself, indicates the competitive nature of the government's coins as
a casting medium.
Cheers,
Mike
Peter W. Rowe
<MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Hello Peter,
>>
>>and thank you for keeping such a high signal-to-noise ratio with this
>>group. Well, as you have pointed out, zinc is an "irony" metal, and
>>although jewelers are known for working precious metals, they also are
>>no strangers to iron. For example, jeweler's anvils are best made of
>>steel, although iron and zinc can be considered as substitutes,
Iron makes a good anvil. Zinc, however, makes cheap trinkets in die cast molds,
not quality tools, especially not ones needing some strength. There ARE, of
course, some more complex zinc based alloys that have better properties, but
pennies are not such an alloy. Costume jewelry is sometimes made of plated
"white metal", which may often be a zinc based alloy for the cheaper stuff, or a
tin based one (pewter) for better quality.
My reference to irony was not to imply any great similarity between zinc and
iron. There isn't, at least not in practical terms.
And more to the point, you've not yet explained why anyone would wish to melt
pennies for the zinc in them. As Abrasha pointed out, it's a poor way of
getting zinc, since what you'd get would be an indeterminate mix of zinc and
copper, plus the various impurities introduced from the higher than normal
melting temperature needed to break down the penny, plus the higher than usual
percentage of absorbed gasses, oxides, etc, due to torch melting such a small
amount of the stuff.
The notion that pennies are a good source of tiny zinc ingots is silly. Buy a
bit of zinc, and use what you wish. It need not be in ingots. You can get it
granulated, or if in more solid stock form, clip off what you need. Simple, and
can give you a purity you'd actually wish to use in, for example, alloying.
Pennies are a poor way to add zinc to an alloy anyway, since at least in terms
of jewelry alloys, you're usually adding it to much higher melting point metals.
The best way to do that is with an intermediate "master" alloy, usually
something like an alloy of copper and zinc. You can get quite pure brass with a
known ratio of zinc to copper, and this is a good way to introduce additional
zinc into an alloy. Yes, you must also take the copper in the brass into
consideration, but that's just a bit of simple math. Even if you need to spend
a few more moments getting the needed ingredients together to alloy what you
wish, your end results will be better. Zinc cored pennies are a poor way to
get a good alloy.
>>especially among those of us who are keen on making our own tools.
>>Jeweler's vices and jeweler's lathes also come to mind here, as well
>>as a long list of other tools which are specifically made for the
>>jeweler.
None of which normally are made of zinc. Well, maybe some things like
non-marring inserts for vise jaws, or the like. But normally, even then, zinc
isn't the common choice of metal to use.
>>
>>Yes, Peter, in fact, a person can make more than one-hundred and
>>eighty pennys from a pound of zinc. So far, though, I have not found
>>anyone except the government who makes zink pieces in penny sizes.
You haven't yet said just why you need them. And why this impure and imprecise
method is acceptable...
>>And, of course, with pennys, there is no paying for shipping, waiting
>>for shipping, and so on.
No, but for your penny, you've paid far more than the value of the zinc. Do it
right. Find any decent metals supplier or lab chemicals supplier or whatever.
Buy yourself a pound of zinc granules, or whatever other form you find easy to
use. Be set for life.
>>This gives the government ingots the edge.
>>You are correct about the reason why the government began making zinc
>>pennys. However, it was evidently just recently that the government
>>outlawed the melting of zinc pennys for the same reason. This, in
>>itself, indicates the competitive nature of the government's coins as
>>a casting medium.
>>
Either that, or they're trying to be benevolant, protecting people from the
temptation of using their pennies for a purpose for which they're not well
suited, thus protectiong consumers from potentially flawed and inferior
products, and helping to maintain the high quality of U.S. made products by
making it more likely that the proper materials are used.
Face it. coins are simply not intended, nor especially good for, casting
purposes. The main exception to that might be using pure gold bullion coins
like Canadian Maple leafs, or the like, as the source for gold with which to
alloy your jewelry alloys. But even that is more expensive than buying pure
gold casting grain.
The whole topic, though, reminds me of a story I heard years ago, from a refiner
and metalurgist I was using then (now long retired). He'd been hired to help a
major jewelry manufacturer try to track down why they were having occasional
problems with their merchandise ending up under karat. It was driving them
nuts. They were buying high quality new alloy from reputable suppliers. Most
of their castings were fine. But occasionally a batch would come out just
enough under karat it would have to be totally scrapped. Eventually it was
traced to the casting department. The normal casting guy was doing things
right. But on his days off, two other fellows would fill in. One was this old
timer who'd been there forever, and pretty much knew it all, or so his
reputation went. My friend happened to be there watching the casting process
while he was doing a batch. The gold went into the melting furnace. Melted
just fine. Just before pouring, the old fellow reached into his pocket, pulled
out a penny, and tossed it in "for luck". When questioned, he said he felt that
the little extra bit of copper and zinc in the penny led to less porosity or
something (maybe even true with the old traditonal non-deoxidized alloys he'd
learned with way back). Problem solved. It had never occurred to him, due to
the size of the melt (several ounces at least) that his addition to an otherwise
very precise alloy was enough to lower the karat below legal standards. Now, I
heard this story second hand from my refiner, and I have no idea if it was
actually true, or just a nice illutration of how product quality can be affected
by things you'd never expect to look for. But it does nicely illustrate one
reason why pennies might not be the best thing to add to your gold alloy...
Peter
Ted Frater
Our local post office, regularly gets lead 1 pound coins brass plated.
Obviously made by someone in his dinner time at a brass plating works,
in the Midlands. UK.
As to making real fakes, there not cast of course, there minted between
dies.
Thats easy , if you have all the right minting machinery.
I get asked to do that quite often, however, it doesnt add up.
It costs over £2.00 to make a £1.00 coin.
Then theres the die costs.
IF you could get your art modeller to make the resin negatives, then
get you die maker to cut the dies then get them hardened, there are too
many folk in this production chain to be paid to keep quiet, and /or
who want protection money!!.
Then if you went to any shop with 100 coin to pay for something paying
in all coin looks suspicious.
What does go on is making fake medieval coin. There put in a tray of old
coin at coin and medal fairs and the unsuspecting collector will "find"
it andask how much. that way you might get say £3.00 for a brass fathing
It still doesnt cover the overall costs of doing it.
There was a fashion many yrs ago of putting half sovereign coins in rings.
These were made in copper gold plated. Usually worn by gypsyfolk or
travellers.
To make it pay printing money is probably the way to go.
A friend and I at a fair offered a genuine £5.00 note for £4.00.
It was on offer ALL day!! hundredsof folk looked at it
and it didnt sell. We had a lot of fun with that.
Eventually it did sell to a sharp business man who saw what we were doing.
We let it go of course.
Have a nice Easter.
Ted
Dorset
UK.
Limpy
Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:52:10 -0700 we were all amazed to see Peter W.
Rowe <rec.craft...@earthlink.net> write:
>On Thu, 09 Apr 2009 19:25:09 -0700, in rec.crafts.jewelry Muso
><MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>>>Hello Peter,
>>>
>>>and thank you for keeping such a high signal-to-noise ratio with this
>>>group. Well, as you have pointed out, zinc is an "irony" metal, and
>>>although jewelers are known for working precious metals, they also are
>>>no strangers to iron.
<snip>
>
>And more to the point, you've not yet explained why anyone would wish to melt
>pennies for the zinc in them.
Peter,
I think he explained everything quite well.
He's obviously somewhat pissed off at our (US) government for various
and sundry justifiable reasons, not least of which is the fact that it
makes it a crime to melt the useless penny, made useless I might add
by the hidden tax of inflation.
In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the AC's from the
DC's aren't we all yearning for someone who can turn on a little
stopping power? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass, a lightening rod
with which to chase the spooks away?
The posting was humorous.
Y'all need to lighten up a bit.
Peter W. Rowe
<ivab...@thatswaytoomuch.infoREMOVE> wrote:
>>
>>Peter,
>>I think he explained everything quite well.
>>He's obviously somewhat pissed off at our (US) government for various
>>and sundry justifiable reasons, not least of which is the fact that it
>>makes it a crime to melt the useless penny
And well it should be. If everyone were to spend much time melting pennies, the
extra propane burned to do so would quickly add way too much to the already
significant greenhouse gasses around, and, combined with the heating effect of
that, already, those propane flames melting pennies could quickly melt the polar
ice caps into steaming cups of salty tea, thus totally flooding New York with
sea level rise.
Wait a minute. That means flooding Wall Street, doesn't it.
OK, melt those pennies, guys.
>>, made useless I might add
>>by the hidden tax of inflation.
>>
Um, if they're so useless, and you don't want them, in the event you don't want
to bother melting them, perhaps you could send your extras to me. I could use
em for next months mortgage payment if you all send enough of em.
>>In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the AC's from the
>>DC's aren't we all yearning for someone who can turn on a little
>>stopping power? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass, a lightening rod
>>with which to chase the spooks away?
I have no trouble telling AC from DC. Hook up to a plating tank or anodizer. If
it works as it should, it's DC. If it just gets hot, then it can't make up it's
mind. (AC).
And smoky glass is not such a good idea. If those modern times get pissed, and
hit back, the glass breaks into leetle sharp bits. Not good for the tires or
feetsies. Stick with the lightening rods. They're good for double duty as
spears, once civilization (and thus grocery stores) collapses due to excess
melting of pennies, and we have to go back to hunting our own food an all...
>>
>>The posting was humorous.
>>Y'all need to lighten up a bit.
I do indeed need to loose some weight, it's true. Carrying all your extra
pennies around after you send em to me *unmelted, please) will be good exercise,
and might help. Thanks in advance.
Peter
Peter W. Rowe
<ivab...@thatswaytoomuch.infoREMOVE> wrote:
>>>>>Hello Peter,
... snip.
Oh, and "limpy", regarding that name of yours.
You have my heartfelt sympathy. You know, they have drugs for that, now...
P
Sorry. Off topic, I know.
Mouse
> Peter,
> I think he explained everything quite well.
> He's obviously somewhat pissed off at our (US) government for various
> and sundry justifiable reasons, not least of which is the fact that it
> makes it a crime to melt the useless penny, made useless I might add
> by the hidden tax of inflation.
>
> In these days of modern times, when you can't tell the AC's from the
> DC's aren't we all yearning for someone who can turn on a little
> stopping power? Don't you think I mean a smoky glass, a lightening rod
> with which to chase the spooks away?
>
> The posting was humorous.
> Y'all need to lighten up a bit.
>
>
Thanks Limpy for the reality test. Oh, and thanks for the second
paragraph, I wore out a copy of that record back in my hippie days.
Mouse
Henry
http://www.usatoday.com/money/2006-12-14-melting-ban-usat_x.htm
Extracted Quote:
Under the new rules, it is illegal to melt pennies and nickels. It is
also illegal to export the coins for melting. Travelers may legally
carry up to $5 in 1- and 5-cent coins out of the USA or ship $100 of
the coins abroad "for legitimate coinage and numismatic purposes."
Violators could spend up to five years in prison and pay as much as
$10,000 in fines. Plus, the government will confiscate any coins or
metal used in melting schemes.
Muso
for your opinions.
> Iron makes a good anvil. =A0Zinc, however, makes cheap trinkets
Those who make their own machine tools use scrap zinc and aluminum.
in die cast molds,
> not quality tools
For "quality tools" we would need quality foundry coke, not the
quarter-inch breeze that the coke industry dumps on us hobbyists.
, especially not ones needing some strength. =A0There ARE, of
> course, some more complex zinc based alloys that have better properties, =
but
> pennies are not such an alloy.
No, for Zamac, we would also need aluminum, magnesium, and copper, all
of which can be purchased as scrap.
=A0Costume jewelry is sometimes made of plated
> "white metal", which may often be a zinc based alloy for the cheaper stuf=
f, or a
> tin based one (pewter) for better quality. =A0
I suspedted as much. I like my trinkets to be as cheap as possible,
by the way.
> My reference to irony was not to imply any great similarity between zinc =
and
> iron. =A0There isn't, at least not in practical terms.
There are those who would disagree. What is practical for one is not
necessarily practical for another.
> And more to the point, you've not yet explained why anyone would wish to =
melt
> pennies for the zinc in them.
Yes, for the zinc in them. You got it right.
=A0As Abrasha pointed out, it's a poor way of
> getting zinc
You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-)
, since what you'd get would be an indeterminate mix of zinc and
> copper, plus the various impurities introduced from the higher than norma=
l
> melting temperature needed to break down the penny, plus the higher than =
usual
> percentage of absorbed gasses, oxides, etc, due to torch melting such a s=
mall
> amount of the stuff.
Yeah, sounds about right for a Gingery lathe, shaper, mill, or drill
press. And aren't machine tools the king of the tools?
> The notion that pennies are a good source of tiny zinc ingots is silly.
I'll tell you what's silly, Peter. What's silly is that the Houston
Area Blacksmithing Association offers breeze coke to its members,
labeling it as "forge coke". The quality control of the established
metalworking community does not impress me in the least. There is
nothing lower on the coke totem pole than breeze coke, which is
unblowable by conventional means.
=A0Buy a
> bit of zinc, and use what you wish. =A0It need not be in ingots. =A0You c=
an get it
> granulated
Yes, it is granulated by melting it, and then pouring it into water.
I guess I've already done that, at the penny level.
, or if in more solid stock form, clip off what you need. =A0Simple, and
> can give you a purity you'd actually wish to use in, for example, alloyin=
g.
> Pennies are a poor way to add zinc to an alloy anyway
News flash -- I'm a po' boy!
, since at least in terms
> of jewelry alloys, you're usually adding it to much higher melting point =
metals.
> The best way to do that is with an intermediate "master" alloy, usually
> something like an alloy of copper and zinc. =A0You can get quite pure bra=
ss with a
> known ratio of zinc to copper
To high-melt for me.
, and this is a good way to introduce additional
> zinc into an alloy. =A0Yes, you must also take the copper in the brass in=
to
> consideration, but that's just a bit of simple math. =A0Even if you need =
to spend
> a few more moments getting the needed ingredients together to alloy what =
you
> wish, your end results will be better.
the end result would be more difficult to melt. I will be using a
single-burner propane camping stove, not a blast furnace.
=A0 Zinc cored pennies are a poor way to
> get a good alloy.
Yes, just the thing for us po' boys!
> >>especially among those of us who are keen on making our own tools.
> >>Jeweler's vices and jeweler's lathes also come to mind here, as well
> >>as a long list of other tools which are specifically made for the
> >>jeweler.
>
> None of which normally are made of zinc.
That is because coke briquettes are not normally bagged in briquette
form, and then offered at the local hardware store. I will be making
my own, of course, though in the meantime, I will not just be sitting
around twiddling my thumbs.
=A0Well, maybe some things like
> non-marring inserts for vise jaws, or the like. =A0But normally, even the=
n, zinc
> isn't the common choice of metal to use.
Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a
recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am
under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not
begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own
memory is in good shape.
> >>Yes, Peter, in fact, a person can make more than one-hundred and
> >>eighty pennys from a pound of zinc. =A0So far, though, I have not found
> >>anyone except the government who makes zink pieces in penny sizes.
>
> You haven't yet said just why you need them.
I don't need them. That's why I am a hobbyist. You need them, or
other metals, because these materials are your livelihood. I am under
no such constraint.
=A0And why this impure and imprecise
> method is acceptable...
Why should you require a justification? If you want pure metals, then
use them. I promise that I will not stop you. Breathe a little
easier because of this.
> >>And, of course, with pennys, there is no paying for shipping, waiting
> >>for shipping, and so on.
>
> No, but for your penny, you've paid far more than the value of the zinc.
For a pure metal. Whatever. If I wanyed to, I could probably refine
the darn stuff myself. I won't bother to research the matter, because
I don't care anyway.
=A0Do it
> right. =A0Find any decent metals supplier or lab chemicals supplier or wh=
atever.
> Buy yourself a pound of zinc granules, or whatever other form you find ea=
sy to
> use. =A0Be set for life.
One pound would fill up less than one-tenth of the one-quart pot which
the Gingery foundry specifies. I am not a jeweler. I use many of the
same tools that a jeweler uses, though.
> >>This gives the government ingots the edge.
> >>You are correct about the reason why the government began making zinc
> >>pennys. =A0However, it was evidently just recently that the government
> >>outlawed the melting of zinc pennys for the same reason. =A0This, in
> >>itself, indicates the competitive nature of the government's coins as
> >>a casting medium.
>
> Either that, or they're trying to be benevolant, protecting people from t=
he
> temptation of using their pennies for a purpose for which they're not wel=
l
> suited, thus protectiong consumers from potentially flawed and inferior
> products, =A0and helping to maintain the high quality of U.S. made produc=
ts by
> making it more likely that the proper materials are used.
No, they just don't want people melting down pennies just to sell the
metal. And I will not be selling any metal.
> Face it. =A0coins are simply not intended, nor especially good for, casti=
ng
> purposes. =A0The main exception to that might be using pure gold bullion =
coins
> like Canadian Maple leafs, or the like, as the source for gold with which=
to
> alloy your jewelry alloys. =A0But even that is more expensive than buying=
pure
> gold casting grain.
Yes, gold would make very expensive tools, also.
> The whole topic, though, reminds me of a story I heard years ago, from a =
refiner
> and metalurgist I was using then (now long retired). =A0He'd been hired t=
o help a
> major jewelry manufacturer try to track down why they were having occasio=
nal
> problems with their merchandise ending up under karat. =A0It was driving =
them
> nuts. =A0They were buying high quality new alloy from reputable suppliers=
. =A0Most
> of their castings were fine. =A0But occasionally a batch would come out j=
ust
> enough under karat it would have to be totally scrapped. =A0Eventually it=
was
> traced to the casting department. =A0The normal casting guy was doing thi=
ngs
> right. =A0But on his days off, two other fellows would fill in. =A0One wa=
s this old
> timer who'd been there forever, and pretty much knew it all, or so his
> reputation went. =A0 My friend happened to be there watching the casting =
process
> while he was doing a batch. =A0The gold went into the melting furnace. =
=A0Melted
> just fine. =A0Just before pouring, the old fellow reached into his pocket=
, pulled
> out a penny, and tossed it in "for luck". =A0When questioned, he said he =
felt that
> the little extra bit of copper and zinc in the penny led to less porosity=
or
> something (maybe even true with the old traditonal non-deoxidized alloys =
he'd
> learned with way back). =A0 Problem solved. =A0It had never occurred to h=
im, due to
> the size of the melt (several ounces at least) that his addition to an ot=
herwise
> very precise alloy was enough to lower the karat below legal standards. =
=A0Now, I
> heard this story second hand from my refiner, and I have no idea if it wa=
s
> actually true, or just a nice illutration of how product quality can be a=
ffected
> by things you'd never expect to look for. =A0But it does nicely illustrat=
e one
> reason why pennies might not be the best thing to add to your gold alloy.=
..
>
> Peter
I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave
the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-)
Peter W. Rowe
<MikeMan...@aol.com> wrote:
>>Hello again, Peter. I am in good spirits, and I have a high regard
>>for your opinions.
>>
Thanks. Oh, and sorry for the formatting errors in sending your post. Coding
conflicts betwixt your post and my software settings leads to these odd codes in
the middle of text. Missed this time.
>>
>>I suspedted as much. I like my trinkets to be as cheap as possible,
>>by the way.
Nothing wrong with that.
>>
>>There are those who would disagree. What is practical for one is not
>>necessarily practical for another.
true. for one thing, I assumed you had some vaguely jewelry related use, given
that this is a jewelry related newgroup. For that, zinc is often a somewhat
poor choice. Not just inexpensive. Doesn't hold up well to jewelry use by
itself. Usually needs a pretty heavy electroplate to protect it from the
corrosive effects it encounters in jewelry use... Much better, for fairly
inexpensive jewelry would be brass, similar copper based alloys, or even silver.
More costly, but most jewelry made of it uses little enough it's reasonable even
for those on a strict budget. And yes, your gingery furnace can melt silver if
you set it up right. Ordinary charcoal briquettes and a blower/hair dryer can
do it. Not large amounts, but enough. Or an ordinary propane torch from the
hardware store is easier and quicker.
If you really want the cheapest prices and still want to do something you can
call jewelry, use pewter. That's essentially pure tin, with a trace of copper
or antimony. doesn't cost much more than zinc. Contenti.com can sell you these
metals, by the way, suited for white metal casting purposes, at prices you might
consider reasonable, and a better use of the pennies, especially if you're
melting them by the pound, as you imply...
>>You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-)
Nope. I are one. You're assumption that jewelers are rich folks is usually
incorrect. You know that old saw about starving artists... All too true
sometimes. especially in a recession, when people buy somewhat less jewelry.
>>
>>Yeah, sounds about right for a Gingery lathe, shaper, mill, or drill
>>press. And aren't machine tools the king of the tools?
Depends on your point of view. I happen to have higher regard for the ultimate
tools, the human hand and brain. Hand tools in the hands of a skilled worker
are wonderful and versatile things. Machine tools in the hands of a hack are
not much good or even dangerous. It's the skills of the user that make em
kings, whatever the type of tools. The Gingery stuff is fun, though I'm not
sure they're economically worth building. yes, you're building it all yourself,
but given how cheap you can find used tools on Craigs list, ebay, or garage
sales, not to mention the chinese imports from Harbor Freight, I'm not sure the
build it yourself stuff is any cheaper in the long run. But you learn a lot
building them, to be sure, and perhaps that's worth it all on it's own
>>
>>I'll tell you what's silly, Peter. What's silly is that the Houston
>>Area Blacksmithing Association offers breeze coke to its members,
>>labeling it as "forge coke". The quality control of the established
>>metalworking community does not impress me in the least. There is
>>nothing lower on the coke totem pole than breeze coke, which is
>>unblowable by conventional means.
Probably why that local org has it at all. It's cheap. Does ABAMA still have
lists of suppliers on their web site? I'm certain you can find better coke out
there if you need it. Or use other means if your aim is melting metals. Coke
is most useful for the forge. For just plain metal melting, it's going about it
the low tech way to be sure, but not exactly the easy way, unless you're melting
quite a large amount, at which point you're not talking jewelry use any more.
And for what it's worth, what's wrong with ordinary barbaque charcoal for the
melting furnace? Not quite coke, to be sure, but back in grad school, some 20
years ago, we were using a charcoal fired furnace furnace built in an old metal
bucket sort of thing, with a hair dryer blower at the bottom, to work with the
metal casting methods of the Ashante peoples of east Africa. Wonderful
heritage, and capable of extremely detailed castings. Things that sometimes
would even be difficult to duplicate with the usually used lost wax casting
methods of the jewelry industry. Brass, bronze, and gold alloys were the usual
metals used. No prob with those temperature ranges, and it was just ordinary
grocery store grade charcoal briquettes.
>>News flash -- I'm a po' boy!
Yeah. Me too. That's why I'd prefer to keep my pennies in their more valuable,
bill paying form, with which I can buy more than their weight in zinc fairly
easily.
>>To high-melt for me.
See above.
>>
>>the end result would be more difficult to melt. I will be using a
>>single-burner propane camping stove, not a blast furnace.
>>
true, an open burner stove would be hard to use. But swap it for a decent
propane torch, build a small cylindrical tube furnace with the flame entering
tangentially at the bottom, add a small crucible, and you can melt almost
anything in the normal range of non-ferrous metals. Or go to the scale of your
Gingery furnace and do the same with a propane burner and blower made from a
hair dryer. Some people who use such furnaces for larger amounts might use a
purchased burner head, but even that, you can build yourself. Not that hard to
do. Or use that same furnace design just with charcoal, as described above.
The blower is what gives you the higher temp range...
>>
>>That is because coke briquettes are not normally bagged in briquette
>>form, and then offered at the local hardware store. I will be making
>>my own, of course, though in the meantime, I will not just be sitting
>>around twiddling my thumbs.
I really don't think you have to have coke unless you're trying to reach the
temps needed for cast iron (as the gingery furnace is designed to do, if I
recall right.). For aluminum or other lower melting alloys, while coke is nice,
lasting longer, if you can't get decent coke, then why bother with the junk at
all. (unless of course it still works, and is cheaper than charcoal...)
>>
>>Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a
>>recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am
>>under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not
>>begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own
>>memory is in good shape.
Agreed. the group does not require any level of standards. Though I'm a
professional, many readers of this group are not. However, be aware that the
group IS specified as a jewelry specific group (need the charter? Go to Google
groups and find an old post of the FAQ file, where I included the charter, or
ask in email, and I'll send you a copy), so the usual standards of thinking
about metal the way jewelers do is usually assumed, even if not required. Thus
the assumptions on the nature of the alloys you might be using, or what you
might be using them for. By the way, the "rec" part in the newsgroup name is
simply the place this group is organized within the heirarchy of newsgroups. All
the crafts, whether professional or not, or in this section of the newsgroup
structure except those that didn't want to go through the formal creation
process, and get themselves set up as "Alt" groups. It does not imply that the
groups are more recreational or less professional. The only definition of this
group is that it's somehow related to the jewelry craft, and that it's
non-commercial and moderated in nature. Beyond that, it's what you and other
readers make it. I'd mention that if your interest is more to the usually
non-jewelry sorts of metal working, including those Gingery machine tools and
the like, you might wish to check out rec.crafts.metalworking. More along the
usual lines for that group, though of course you're welcome here too, if you
like.
>>
>>One pound would fill up less than one-tenth of the one-quart pot which
>>the Gingery foundry specifies. I am not a jeweler. I use many of the
>>same tools that a jeweler uses, though.
See, this is why I'd think you'd want to buy the metal. If you're actually
melting ten pounds of metal at a time, pennies are a pretty costly way to get
it...
>>I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave
>>the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-)
I wish. Just because I have to buy precious metals to practice my trade
doesn't mean I'm left with loads of cash at the end. Just doesn't work that
way, unfortunately. Especially not with today's metals prices.
But seriously. Try pewter. You might like it. Nicer to work with than zinc.
Cleaner to cast, similar costs.
And at this point, I'm thinking we've beaten this penny horse to death. Unless
we want to talk about bronzing the sucker... (grin) that would take a big
plating tank. Maybe the bathtub could be modified...
Peter
Carl 1 Lucky Texan
Wow, I had no idea. I apologize for posting out of ignorance that
melting coins was OK.
crazy
Carl
Abrasha
>
> As Abrasha pointed out, it's a poor way of
>> getting zinc
>
> You got sum'n again' po' folk? ;-)
No, just poor folks with an attitude.
-- snip superfluous drivel --
>> Pennies are a poor way to add zinc to an alloy anyway
>
> News flash -- I'm a po' boy!
With a High Speed Internet connection?
-- SNIP --
> Peter, I know that you are a professional jeweler. But I am a
> recreational metalworker, and this is a recreational group. I am
> under no obligation to meet professional standards here. I am not
> begging for leniency. I am simply refreshing your memory, for my own
> memory is in good shape.
With all due respect, it seems that this is the wrong Usenet group for
you to post in. There is a better one, where you will get a great deal
more understanding and support for your issues then here. It is called
rec.crafts.metalworking. Check it out, I think you'll like it. FYI, it
is an unmoderated newsgroup. If you act like a fool, they will pounce
on you hard in a flash. Peter won't allow that here.
You'll also find a whole bunch of Southern Red Neck "po' boys" there,
who will be more than willing to sympathize.
-- SNIP --
>
> I agree. But I plan on sticking with zinc for awhile. I will leave
> the gold and silver to you rich folks! ;-)
Lose the attitude you seem to have about "rich folks". I don't think
you know much about "rich folks".
They'll love you over at rec.crafts.metalworking though. You're their
kind of guy.
BTW, how many Gingery machine tools have you built? You don't sound
like the kind of person who has built any.
--
Abrasha
http://www.abrasha.com
Peter W. Rowe
<abr...@abrasha.com> wrote:
>>BTW, how many Gingery machine tools have you built? You don't sound
>>like the kind of person who has built any.
I kinda wondered about that too, what with talking both about the Gingery
foundry/melting furnace, but then about melting over a propane camp stove
instead. A considerable step down from that fairly capable home made furnace...
But in the end, it doesn't really matter, does it. The main subject, whether
pennies are a good, legal, economical and metalurgically sound source of zinc,
is seperate from what machine's he's built or not. And it appears that well
informed opinions on the matter are meeting a bit of a brick wall. OK. His
choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him drink."
Peter
Don T
news:glm9u4p67629cgm9p...@4ax.com...
> His choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him
> drink."
>
> Peter
They used to say that about Camels too but that was all changed when
Abdullah Al-Kaboom discovered two flat rocks side by each and had a
brainstorm.
"What would happen" he thought " if I take these two flat rocks and
juuuuussssssst as the Camel sticks his nose in the Oasis smash them together
on that Camel's testicles?" He found that he could get 3 extra days trekking
out of each Camel that way.
--
Don Thompson
Stolen from Dan: "Just thinking, besides, I watched 2 dogs mating once,
and that makes me an expert. "
There is nothing more frightening than active ignorance.
~Goethe
It is a worthy thing to fight for one's freedom;
it is another sight finer to fight for another man's.
~Mark Twain
Henry
> Wow, I had no idea. I apologize for posting out of ignorance that
> melting coins was OK.
>
> crazy
>
> Carl
Not necessary to apologize, I didn't know either and did a google
search to see if it was legal or not. I always thought it was illegal
for the wrong reasons. I learned a lot myself.
Henry
Peter W. Rowe
<-pain...@louvre.org> wrote:
>>> His choice. "You can lead a horse to water, but you can't make him
>>> drink."
>>>
>>> Peter
>>
>> They used to say that about Camels too but that was all changed when
>>Abdullah Al-Kaboom discovered two flat rocks side by each and had a
>>brainstorm.
snip
OK, Don. Now we're REALLY getting off topic for the group...
And a bit off color too.
But funny if you ignore animal abuse issues...