Soldering at home - acetylene or propane?
Carole Dunn
some jewelry items because it is very dirty (although I don't see any =
black smoke in the studio). He also said that the Little Torch does not =
do well with acetylene and oxygen.
He suggests propane and oxygen but also warned us that propane is even =
more dangerous than acetylene when used in the home, but works better =
with the Little Torch tips.
However, acetylene is much hotter than propane ... so which should I =
get?
This is for light use and small jewelry items
Thank you for your experience,
Carole Dunn
Ian Johnson
soot produced by it.
Ian
Carole Dunn <car...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
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Mickdc
"Carole Dunn" <car...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3b43eso4ilfi0kv3n...@4ax.com...
> Big dilemma! Our instructor says not to use acetylene at home to solder
=
> some jewelry items because it is very dirty (although I don't see any =
> black smoke in the studio)
more carbon is produced when the flame burns without sufficiant oxygen
Usually during startup
He also said that the Little Torch does not =
> do well with acetylene and oxygen.
It works just fine ! but I don't recomend it
>
> He suggests propane and oxygen but also warned us that propane is even =
> more dangerous than acetylene when used in the home,
Can't think why he would say that as some home gas supplies are propane (or
LP gas)
but works better =
> with the Little Torch tips.
& Oxy/ Hydrogen flame works better again
>
> However, acetylene is much hotter than propane ... so which should I =
> get?
Hotter is not always better !
Almost without exception where I work as a jeweller we use oxy/propane(Some
old guys use Propane & a mouth blowpipe) It is cheaper to buy,& setup
there is no cylinder rental, Acetlene gas is disolved in cylinders of
acetone adding to its cost and toxicity propane gas can be refilled at most
petrol stations Propane does burn cleaner the carbon particles produced can
lodge deep in your lungs posibly causing health problems & last but by no
means least propane works perfectly well!
>
> This is for light use and small jewelry items
If you will be melting platinum & or paladuim on a regular basis you may
need a large heating tip (at least) or if you are melting metals in 100
Gram plus amounts
MBOSCHERT
problems with soot and the little torch. Propane is heavier than air and will
sink to the floor. And could be a problem with water heater or furnace pilot
lights if you ever had a leak. I use propane in my garage and it would flow
out the garage door and out into the street. My water heater and furnace are
several feet of the floor. A leak with either or a lack of proper ventilation
is bad.
>not to use acetylene at home to solder because it is very dirty
>the Little Torch does not do well with acetylene and oxygen.
>propane is even more dangerous than acetylene
David L. Feldman
you are making a BIG mistake with propane. It's illegal to have anything
but a mini disposable propane tank inside a building in the state of New
York. Propane is heavier than air and settles. It is explosive (rather
than just being inflammable) and is dangerous, period. Acetylene is lighter
than air, is not explosive (except at extremely high pressures) and is safe
(all things considered).
Acetylene is fine. Oxy-acetylene for basic jewelry is not necessary. We
sell acetylene setups to better than 97% of our customers are they are happy
and well-served. Most of them are using the torches in one-room New York
City apartments with no build-up of dirt from the gas.
If you are doing truly small pieces, I suggest a Blazer butane torch.
Inexpensive, lightweight, portable, easy-to-use, easy to get fuel, but only
for doing small stuff.
I hope this helps.
David Feldman
Metalliferous, Inc.
MS
<car...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>Big dilemma! Our instructor says not to use acetylene at home to solder =
>some jewelry items because it is very dirty (although I don't see any =
>black smoke in the studio). He also said that the Little Torch does not =
>do well with acetylene and oxygen.
Acetylene does deposit some carbon, which affects the crystiline
structure of things like castings, and anything soldered will be just
a bit more brittle. Remember, however, that you are not making parts
for the space shuttle. The real problem with oxy-acetylene is that
you can't see what's going on with the metal you're melting -- it's
incredibly bright. Air-acetylene, however, is great for soldering
silver, gold, brass, bronze, and nickel silver. I seldom break out my
oxy-propane outfit for soldering, because the air acetylene is so
quick and easy to use -- when you strike it, it comes immediately and
automatically to a perfect neutral flame.
>
>He suggests propane and oxygen but also warned us that propane is even =
>more dangerous than acetylene when used in the home, but works better =
>with the Little Torch tips.
Either gas will quickly build up to an explosive level if you have a
leak. The correct strategy is not to choose one gas over the other,
but to keep a spray bottle of soapy water handy and use it every day
on all fittings. If it bubbles, something is wrong! Many jewelers
do work in their homes, and you don't want to sleep with the bottles
in the house. They should be locked outside in some suitably shaded
and vented area that kids can't get into.
Oxygen fittings can be very dangerous because it is so easy for a
jeweler to get grease on a fitting. boom! Or, if you knock over a
bottle and the stem breaks, boom abain.
I also suggest you lurk around ....
sci.engr.joining.welding
....looking for safety tips. There are also some older threads in
this group with good safety advice.
>
>However, acetylene is much hotter than propane ... so which should I =
>get?
I prefer air acetylene for soldering most metals,
oxy- propane for casting and very large soldering jobs.
Untracht suggests oxy-acetylene for platinum, but the platinum jocks
on this group seem to be in disagreement, so if you work platinum,
check with them.
>
>This is for light use and small jewelry items
>
David D. Arens
> >>Big dilemma! Our instructor says not to use acetylene at home to solder =
>
> some jewelry items because it is very dirty (although I don't see any =
> black smoke in the studio). He also said that the Little Torch does not =
> do well with acetylene and oxygen.
>
> He suggests propane and oxygen but also warned us that propane is even =
> more dangerous than acetylene when used in the home, but works better =
> with the Little Torch tips.
>
> However, acetylene is much hotter than propane ... so which should I =
> get?<<
Instructors that pontificate without explaining their pronouncements do
everyone a big disservice.
Technically he's right, acetylene is dirtier than propane, it has more carbon
atoms per gas molecule than propane. If an acet air or oxy torch isn't
properly adjusted, much of the carbon can go unburned & escape as soot.
Because propane doesn't contain as many carbon atoms, there isn't as much
carbon to go unburned. As a result the amount of soot generated is less.
The BTU (heat) content of acet is greater than that of propane. Therefore an
air acet or oxy acet flame will burn hotter than the equivalent flame of
propane.
Unless you do some very unique & demanding work, an oxy/propane torch will
provide a high enough temp. Now, producing a high enough temp is not the same
as producing a large enough quantity of heat. For example, a small propane
oxy flame will melt a thin gold wire, however the same flame will not provide
a large enough quantity of heat to melt an ounce of gold. For that, you need a
larger flame. The temp is the same, but the BTU output (quantity of heat) of
the torch must be much larger.
In many cases, the choice of fuel gas is a matter of local building & fire
codes. Some jurisdictions don't permit the storage or use of certain fuels in
all locations.
Every gas has it's strong weak points. Acet can be explosive, burns hotter,
but is dirtier; propane isn't as explosive, but is heavier than air & can
collect in low lying areas, it also is cooler burning than acet. Hydrogen is
clean burning and quite hot, however it's usually produced on site using a
machine (it costs about $500) that produces both oxy & hydrogen from water.
The machine may not produce a large enough quantity of gas for melting metal
for casting.
Depending on your requirements, there are also butane (refillable hand held
torches that contain the fuel similar to Blazer) & MAPP (a synthetic fuel)
torches.
Many times a person's torch preference depends on what they learned on & what
they've had the most experience with. Most torches (other than the ones that
attach directly to a tank of gas) can burn acet, propane & some of the other
gases. Changing between gases may require changing the size of tip used on the
torch.
Depending on the application, I use everything except a hydrogen torch. I have
a Little Torch (both propane & acet), a propane/air torch, a butane torch &
acet/air.
If I were going to buy only one torch & it had to work with multiple fuels &
have a wide range of uses from fine soldering to melting a casting charge, I'd
opt for the Little Torch with a set of regulators for refillable tanks.
(Little Torch has a model available with regulators that fit disposable gas
tanks). There are a wide selection of tips available for Little Torch. There
are also other similar torches by other mfg.
Dave
Alberic
<car...@mediaone.net> wrote:
> Big dilemma! Our instructor says not to use acetylene at home to solder =
> some jewelry items because it is very dirty (although I don't see any =
> black smoke in the studio). He also said that the Little Torch does not =
> do well with acetylene and oxygen.
>
> He suggests propane and oxygen but also warned us that propane is even =
> more dangerous than acetylene when used in the home, but works better =
> with the Little Torch tips.
>
> However, acetylene is much hotter than propane ... so which should I =
> get?
>
> This is for light use and small jewelry items
>
> Thank you for your experience,
>
> Carole Dunn
>
Greetings:
I've got an acet "little torch", and haven't noticed any particular
problems with it. I don't use it much, as its *very* hot, and can
overwhelm small things. Cleaning the small tips might eventually get to
be a problem, but not any time soon. With the quantity of gas that
thing uses, extra "dirt" around the shop shouldn't be any big deal.
Both gasses have their problems, but I've never noticed any particular
problems caused by the high-carbon content of acetylene. (I actually
prefer it for casting; the carbon helps burn out any random oxygen that
happens to be lurking around my melt.)
Anyway, acetylene is subject to some pretty spectacular but *very* rare
technical problems, while propane isn't subject to a similar set of
esoteric prblems, it is subject to a fairly common one: it's heavier
than air, and so tends to find its way down into the basement (and the
water-heater's pilot light) if there's a leak.
(Acetylene is lighter than air, and is stored in the tanks dissolved in
acetone, which leads to the occasional problem with overdrawing the
tanks, and getting acetone into your regulator, which will eventuall
dissolve your diaphram, if you do it enough. Big problem, but *very*
rare.)
FWIW,
Brian
--
To Email Me, there are no numbers of any sort in my real address
RAYMOND PAGE
metal classes making jewelry, and larger gold and silver pieces. Can that be
used in the home also? We only used oxy/act. for melting silver and gold for
casting.
BBrown1382
of my house... I find the set-up perfectly safe. Since I don't do many repairs,
I haven't found a real need for an oxy/propane rig's special advantages. For
the most part I work with silver (though increasingly more gold as time goes
by), and find the acetylene torch's hot flame to be very useful for getting in
and getting a soldering job done quickly. No doubt I'd feel differently if I
had to do a lot of extremely fussy precision work, but I generally don't do
that type of project. I also prefer my torch for doing melts for casting, and
feel the hotter flame makes up for any minor additional carbon crud by reducing
my melting times. Everybody has different requirements for the type of work
they do, but I think the air/acetylene and "Blazer" type torches have enough
flexibility and safety features to make them sound choices for any home shop.
Rohass
gas and oxy and the other is acetylene/oxy. The natural gas isn't as hot as
the acetylene and it always takes me a few mishaps before I remember the
difference in the two. Lately, I've had a problem with the black carbon as I
light the acetylene torch which is OK once it's lit. This is a recent problem
so was wondering why it's doing this. I tried to blow through the tip to clean
it out but didn't make any difference.
Thanks Linda
MS
It is quite natural for an oxy-acetylene torch to make ash when the
acetylene is lit but the oxy is not yet turned on. Perhaps youy
didn't notice it before because the lighting was different, or because
you were using a smaller tip. An air-acetylene torch will not make
ash if it is working correctly.
Cheers
Mike S.
Don Norris
only torch you will ever need! This will end the age old debate for good!
http://www.frii.com/~dnorris/apr00tip.html
Festavius Creations
an alien beacon could result in seriously embarrasing lawsuits!
Although, the use of aluminum foil as headgear might constitute a legal
defense...
Scott
Rick Bailey
Rick
Don Norris <dno...@frii.com> wrote in message
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Don Norris
torches,
their use, cost, advantages and disadvantages that I can put on my web site and
share
with all the lists. This has been a discussion on many lists. The problem is
that the
posts get so spread out, it is hard to compare. I own, have owned, and have
operated
just about every kind of torch made (hey, I am a guy, and a metals nut, what can
say!), and have my own thoughts on this subject, but would love to have
everyone's
input on this. In my opinion there is no one torch that will satisfy everyone's
needs.
Maybe this comprehensive list will make it easier for every one, especially
beginners
to choose which torch to start with.
If you have the time, please fill out the following and email it to me direct:
dno...@frii.com. I will compile the information and share it with everyone. If
you do
not wish to have your name, business, and or web site mentioned in the final
report,
just leave it blank. If you sell any of the torches you may use this as a way to
advertise, but please relate actual work experience and not just sales bull
-----, and
identify your self as a supplier.
You can just highlight the questions, paste them on an email to me and then
answer
them. Hopefully this will make it quick as possible to do. Oh, please put
"Torch" in
the subject line. If you have more than one torch you would like to comment on
please
send as separate emails. If you have a torch you do not recommend please send
one on
them also.
Questionnaire:
Name:
Business Name: (give as much information as you wish, I will include it all.)
Web Site:
Web Site Description: (Again, as much as you wish to give. Advertising never
bothers
me!)
Torch:
Used for: (Smithing, Casting, Repairs, Bean Casting, Other)
Metals: (Sterling Silver, Gold, Pewter, Platinum, Brass, Copper, Glass, Other)
Cost:
Gas or Gases Used:
Supplier:
Safety Concerns:
Recommended for: (Beginners, Advanced, Snobs, Other)
Why I like this torch (advantages):
Disadvantages (come on there must be at least one!):
Any other comments:
Thanks,
Don Norris
http://www.frii.com/~dnorris
GWD612
their tips. We use the #4 tip for 99% of all gold and silver jewelry
fabrication and repair. I've been using this set up for over 2 years and my
partner has used the same for over 20 years. She is a jewler with a retair
business(fabrication and repair). You must be safe when using any gas. Always
use a backflow prevention device on the tanks and stabalize each tank with a
chain or other suitable device to prevent them from tumbling over and striking
the gauges. A local industrial gas supplier can instruct you on all the
necessary precautions. And yes Acetylene burns much hotter than propane, but a
lot of good jewelers also use propane. Probably just a personal choice
depending on which a person started with. Using the proper tip with acetylene
will ensure you don.t send up black streams of soot. We have no problem using
it with all of our fabrications. Gary in Redding, Ca.
nhw...@my-deja.com
I guess the truth is that you are just trying to do small jewelry
(jewellery ) soldering/brazing at home, and by now are thoroughly
confused by the replies you have received.
Actually, the cute little torch will work fine for jewelry work, but
the gas capacity will be too small for serious work, even by an amateur.
I suggest you try a torch known as Prince 2000 (made by Yoshinaga - but
available everywhere in the world), also a similar torch called Blazer.
Try Swest, I. Shor, Rio Grande, Rosenthal or similar if you are in the
United States.
These (the torches, not the suppliers :-) )use lighter gas as fuel. One
charge lasts over two hours of continuous use - which means several
days of actual use, since it is not necessary to keep it turned on all
the time - it needs just a flick to get it going. The flame is
adjustable in size, temperature as well as "soft" or "hissing" flame.
It can, IF wanted, go up to 1300C!
It is not a toy; I have supplied thousands of these in the past ten
years, usually in multiples of 24 or 96, to VERY large jewelry
manufacturers in India.
There is also a "pencil" version available, but avoid this. The one
that you hold in the fist (it has a grip something like a bicycle grip)
is absolutely perfect for any work in gold or silver, and also for
lower temperature platinum solders - NOT the high temp. ones though.
Ask for Prince 2000, or Blazer, or "the little torch that works on
lighter gas". It only costs about $30 or so.
Use it, thousands of "real" jewelers do. Do not try to store gases
(dangerous or otherwise) in a home environment.
Good Luck!
Nariman H. Wadia
Consultant.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
jwlryguy
I think the bigger question here what kinds of metals are you
working with and what kind of volume (how many units) are you
soldering? A secondary questyon is what method do you use to
clean your product after it is soldered? I am managing a factory
in Mexico and we use oxygen and acetelyne. At my home in RI
have the exact same setup only with smaller tanks and yes I do
use the mini torch. In both situations the torch seems to work
well. In my Texas apartment I use a small butane torch, so go
figure. What do you feel more comfortable with? Comfort level
is more important, to me, than what an instructor tells me what
is right. Who knows maybe you are going to make a break thru
discovery in your jewelry making experiences. Trust your gut,
and good luck.
REgards
Pauld
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
DebbieFace
dollars because at the time I didn't know any better. The flame was volatile
(it would explode now and then and could have burned my face off if I had it
pointing the wrong way) and it was dull, which meant that whenever I tried
something as simple as soldering a jumpring, all of my silver melted into a
glob.
I don't know much about metalsmithing but are the Blazer torchers any
different? My instructor at school tells me to skip it and invest in one of
those little torches or a standard Smith torch. However, I know my limits and
I honestly don't trust myself hanging around with two gas tanks.
And after these million and a half threads I'm even more confused. Ha, thanks
guys!
>Subject: Re: Soldering at home - acetylene or propane?
>From: nhw...@my-deja.com
>Date: 4/7/00 11:05 PM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <2f8tes0jivquufrh4...@4ax.com>
David D. Arens
> >>I don't know much about metalsmithing but are the Blazer torchers any
> different? My instructor at school tells me to skip it and invest in one of
> those little torches or a standard Smith torch. However, I know my limits and
> I honestly don't trust myself hanging around with two gas tanks.<<
The size of the torchd you buy depends on the type (size) of things you want to
solder or weld.
For light things like jump rings & chains & other small silver items (about 1
inch
square or less), a Blazer works fine. I make lots of chain have been using a
Blazer for both soldering & fusing gold, sterling & fine silver. It's been used
on
wire from 10 ga to 32 ga.
For heavy silver pieces, an acetylene/air (Prestolite) torch works well. For a
torch capable of producing a small very hot flame go with an oxy/acet or oxy
propane.
Don't be afraid of the 2 tank (oxy & acet or propane) torches. Just learn how to
handle them & everything will be fine. As you found out with the little pencil
torch, size does not equal safety!
Dave
Michael Bowles
I agree with Dave. I use a Smith Little Torch with Oxygen and Acetylene for
most
small work, and a larger Victor torch with a # 5 tip for melting. It's fine as
long
as you know how to set up and use the cylinders and regulators and keep your
equipment in good repair. I pay $33 to have my cylinders hydro-tested and
refilled
and they last a long time, so they work out to be a lot more economical than the
disposable propane or MAPP gas systems, and more flexible re; tip selection.
If you really don't like tanks you might want to consider one of the
"water-torch" systems. Very clean burning and runs off the electrolysis of water
into hydrogen and oxygen. I've never used one, but if you can't keep tanks for
insurance or safety reasons, you might want to consider it.
Michael