A question about flux
Tesno30
Can anyone tell me the difference between liquid fluxes?
I solder 10k and 14k gold jewelry at work with gold stick solder. We use
a blue liquid flux. Handy and Harman Handy Liquid Flux, which is floron
based. How does this compare with the yellowish-green self-pickling flux
I've seen in most catalogs, which I believe is borax based? Specifically,
I've got Gesswein's yellowish-green self-pickling flux. Does one protect
against oxidation better? What about flux residue? And most importantly,
which flux promotes the best solder flow? One last question, is there a
big price difference?
Thanks for any enlightenment anyone can provide on this subject.
Lisa
Scott Buckner
In article <543un4$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> tes...@aol.com (Tesno30) writes:
>From: tes...@aol.com (Tesno30)
>Subject: A question about flux
>Date: 16 Oct 1996 20:30:28 -0400
>Lisa
Lisa:
I'm just starting out in this field, but I've learned one thing as far as my
personal technique and flux is concerned is that the liquid yellowish-green
stuff is pretty much crap. In my jewelry metalworking class, we use stuff
called Magic Flame, which is a sort of pasty, slightly liquidy pink-colored
flux, and it works nicely in protecting the metal (I use copper a lot) from
firescale, particularly if you're starting with a cold fire brick. In fact,
I've seen people in my class keep the torch on their pieces seemingly forever
with no fire damage to the metal. And there's very, very little, if any
residue.
Conversely, I bought some of the liquid green-yellow stuff for my work at home
last weekend, and it evaporated long before the solder melted, leaving me with
two useless, burned-to-bits pieces of copper. The stuff was pretty cheap,
something like $2.50 for a 3oz. bottle.
I think the big difference in my case was the distinctly different properties
of the two fluxes.
Just my two cents' worth, but I'd say stick to what works.
Scott
Marilyn Smith
I've never heard of Magic Flame. Do you have a source for it? I hate
firescale.
Marilyn
Dave Stephens
I agree, those liquid self pickling fluxes are crap. I do mostly silver
work and use Dandix paste flux which works well. You can also get Handy
flux at your local welding shop which alot of people use also. I'm not
familiar with gold soldering but I don't think there's any difference.
Maybe Peter Rowe could follow this up....Dave
Scott Buckner
>>
>Scott
>I've never heard of Magic Flame. Do you have a source for it? I hate
>firescale.
>Marilyn
Marilyn:
I'll find out when I go to class Wednesday and pass it on to you then. I'll
e-mail it to you as well as posting here in case anyone else wants to know.
By the way, in experimenting a bit with copper, a really diluted mixture of
water and muriatic acid (available at most swimming pool supply houses) gets
rid of firescale nicely and instantly. This is a last resort measure to
use when you really have to, instead of chucking a nice piece and all the
work that went into it. Just make sure you rinse off the muriatic *really
really really* quickly.
Scott
PeterWRowe
In article <dsisbuk.3...@interaccess.com>, dsi...@interaccess.com
(Scott Buckner) writes:
>
>By the way, in experimenting a bit with copper, a really diluted mixture
of
>water and muriatic acid (available at most swimming pool supply houses)
gets
>rid of firescale nicely and instantly. This is a last resort measure to
>use when you really have to, instead of chucking a nice piece and all the
>work that went into it. Just make sure you rinse off the muriatic *really
>really really* quickly.
>
>Scott
What's the rush? Muriatic acid (which is actually dilute industrial
grade Hydrochloric acid) isn't really all that active with copper. Don't
leave the piece soaking forever, but you don't really have to panic and
rinse in all that quickly. Actually, copper alloys are not that much of a
problem with fire scale, as those oxides stay on the surface of the metal.
Even when it's fairly thick and ugly, it doesn't penatrate into the good
metal the way it does with silver or gold. So it's easy to dissolve, even
with just plain old ordinary pickling solutions. Pickle (sulphuric acid
salts) will still leave a pinkish cast to the otherwise clean metal on
brass and bronze. Copper will be nicely cleaned to the copper. You can
effectively get rid of the pinkish cast on brass or bronze, if you need
to, with a peroxide and sulphuric acid mix. The easiest version of this
is to dip out a little of the pickle solution (hot), add your piece, and
pour in a bit of drugstore peroxide. let it soak five or ten minutes.
Don't put that mix back into the pickle pot when done, and it doesn't last
very long, so you'll have to discard it. For more precise and
technically correct versions of this technique, you'll want to read Bill
Seeley's paper on it that Reactive Metals Inc. sells, and if anyone is
interested, I'll see if I can dig up, in my 'saved messages" file, the
newsgroup posting he put in a while back on the subject. And for those
of you with troubles with silver fire scale, I'm reposting my article on
Pripps Flux.
Peter Rowe
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Peter W. Rowe M.F.A., G.G.
Commercial and custom jeweler and metalsmith
Graduate Gemologist and Lapidary
Opinions expressed here are solely my own....... and subject to change
according to my mood and the state of my art ....
No extra charge for smiles and friendship to those who return it
'Cause life's too short and if we're not having fun, then why be here?
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
PeterWRowe
In article <3269DB...@opendoor.com>, Dave Stephens
<stephen...@opendoor.com> writes:
What an invite...
A couple comments on the self pickling fluxes... They aren't crap at all.
They are just designed primarily for the typical commercial work in gold.
For the jeweler soldering heads onto a gold ring, Batterns is a fine flux
to use. The principal attributes of the stuff is that it's an active
enough flux to allow solder flow, but not extremely active, so it won't
burn off too quickly on gold work, while at the same time (and this is the
key to the stuff) not promoting excessive fire scale at the solder joint.
The white paste fluxes, such as dandix and handy flux, are much more
active fluxes, and promote solder flow much better, but tend to actually
promote fire scale formation around the joint as they work and burn off.
Batterns won't leave you with a gold ring and white gold heads with a
bunch of hard to polish blackish crap in the crevices around the head as
readily as will the white paste fluxes. Mind you, if you over heat the
piece, it will still do it. With silver, though, Batterns is a waste of
time. It's not designed for that use, despite what the bottle says. And
with copper or brass? Not a chance. But many jewelers happily use
Batterns with gold work with no problems.
My own preference is still for the white paste fluxes. Our local supplier
(C.R.Hills, detroit) sells a dry powdered version of this flux which I
find very convenient. Just add water. I only mix up about a thimbleful
at a time in a shot glass. Lasts for the days work. That way I always
have nice creamy CLEAN flux to use instead of the other brands where the
whole jar gets lumpy and dried out and full of bits of this and that.
Keeping the flux clean is a part of keeping the joints clean and getting
good seams. However, these paste fluxes have one disadvantage. There's a
good deal of material there. The paste. So working with tiny details can
be harder to do with the paste fluxes. So my bottle of batterns is still
there. I use it now and then for chain repairs, delicate retipping work
(on the white gold it's a little friendlier sometimes) and when working
with platinum, which doesn't need any flux of course, a trace of batterns
can be useful to "glue" a solder paillon in place until it's hot enough to
stick on it's own.
And for Preventing fire scale completely, on silver, see the next post,
which is a reposting of my article on Pripps Flux. For Copper and Brass,
of course, it's not an important issue, as the fire scale doesn't
penetrate the surface, but stays at the surface of the metal where it's
easy to deal with (read: pickle off). However, even with copper and
brass, pripps or the paste fluxes will help reduce the work.
Peter Rowe.
PeterWRowe
As promised, here (yet again) is the Pripps flux article...
Pripps flux is a bit more bother to work with, and will take you more time
when you're setting up to solder stuff, but once you get the hang of it,
You'll never do any real work again without it.
*********************************************
Pripps Flux
Pripps flux is a mix you make up yourself, and does pretty much the same
as a borax coat which is the older more traditional method. Classic
silversmiths would often go through several sequences of "burning on" a
borax coat before annealing or soldering, but it doesn't work quite as
easily or as well as Pripps. I've been a gold and silversmith since
college, and learned Pripps from prof. Fred Fenster at the univ. of
Wisconsin, who proclamed in that 1972 sophmore class that at other schools
people sometimes complained about fire scale, but "here at U.W. it never
gives us a problem". This, by the way, was taught from the first moment
we were shown how to light a torch, just to give you an idea of how
important/basic a technique Fred felt it was. It's named after Jack
Pripp, who taught at Rochester for many years, and is considered one of
the "fathers" of the american metalsmithing community.
The recipe: A quart of water, 120 grams boric acid, 80 grams each TSP
and borax. Boil to dissolve (you might have to add a little more water..
It's the 3:2:2 ratio that's important, not the concentration.) The
Borax you can get at the supermarket, in the laundry area. Borateem is
just borax. The little green flecks they put in there too don't seem to
matter. TST (trisodium phosphate) is a strong cleaner/alkali often used
in cleaning walls and the like before painting. You can usually get it in
paint or hardware stores, but be sure it's actually TSP. Because it's
rather a caustic (though reasonably safe) material, some stores carry a
substitute, which may be confusingly labeled. Read the box carefully.
The substitute doesn't work. If you happen to have a chemical supply
house around, you can also use Disodium or Monosodium Phosphates. But
the Trisodium formula seems to be the most common.
You apply it (and this is an important detail) by spraying it on the
silver while gently heating the silver up enough so the spray dries on
contact, as opposed to hitting as a liquid and bubbling/boiling off. The
best sprayers by far are the cheap little two-tube-with-a-hinge mouth
atomizers that ceramics folks use for applying glazes. It gives a much
finer and more unifortm spray than any sprayer bottle I've seen, and
cannot clog. In use, you'll gently brush the metal with the flame, then
in quick short puffs on the sprayer, put the Pripps flux on a little at a
time. The idea is to coat the entire piece with a thin (thick enough so
the metallic reflections of the metal are no longer visible, but not more)
white crusty coating. Be careful as you do this, not to either let the
metal cool so much that the flux stays liquid (it doesn't coat evenly
then), or the metal gets so hot that it starts to discolor. Its easy
enough, but takes a little practice a first. You do all parts of your
assembly, then let cool, set up the joint, and with the addition of the
smallest amount of additional soldering flux only in the joint (see below)
and solder, do the soldering job.
Pripps is a much less "active" flux than the paste fluxes, and doesn't
burn off easily (though with enough overheating you can do it), so it
gives continuous protection, and thereby completely prevents fire scale.
It will work as a soldering flux all by itself IF your metal and solder
are both completely clean before you start, and if your "heat control" is
good. Paste fluxes such as "Handy" or Griffin, oddly enough, seem to
provide little or no fire scale protection. If fact, with some metals
(like white golds) you'll find the fire scale is worse where the flux was.
This is why you don't want to use much, and keep it only in the join
area. But they are so very active while still fluid and "there" that they
greatly promote solder flow, so many of us use them anyway. Batterns self
pickling flux is somewhere in between. lasts longer, works fairly well,
doesn't give quite the fire scale problem, but also doesn't protect quite
as well. In my work, for simple repairs to already made silver jewelry,
I usually just use a boric acid/alcohol coat, solder with paste flux, and
clean up later, as most of these pieces usually already have fire scale,
and for a single quick ring shank solder job or whathave you, it's not
worth the trouble to bring out the Pripps. But if I'm making something
from scratch, with a few exceptions, then every last annealing or
soldering step is done with pripps coating everything. The added time and
bother is more than paid back when it's time to finish the piece, and
there's no surface oxide and no fire scale, and the piece can be polished
out with the ease of gold work...
By the way, the coating, if you are careful and don't pickle it off after
soldering, can usually last through several soldering cycles, so for some
complex assembly, if you've got everything fitted before hand, you may
only need to coat the parts once for a number of sequential soldering
steps. Also, since the sprayers tend to cover rather more area than just
your silver (like tools and bench areas behind your soldering area, you
will want to set up some sort of simple shield behind the area you're
using for spraying on the flux to catch that overspray. Saves a lot of
mess...
enjoy.
Peter Rowe
PeterWRowe
A while back, Elaine Corwin from Gesswein was providing this groups with
access to some interesting people under her feature title, "ask the
Expert". One of those folks she asked to contribute was Bill Seeley,
owner of Reactive Metals Inc. His posting on H2O2 pickle formulas may
help those of you fighting fire stains on copper alloys...
Here's that posting again,
Peter Rowe
********************************
Subject: ASK THE EXPERT, Hydrogen Peroxide Pickle, by Bill Seeley
From: elai...@aol.com (ElaineEC)
Date: 1 Jan 1996 16:56:48 -0500
Hydrogen Peroxide Picklec
for the removal of cuprous (red) oxide from copper based alloys.
by Bill Seeley
Disclaimer of Liability
Reactive Metals Studio, Inc. and the author assume no responsibility and
disclaim all liability for injuries and/or damages and/or loss of profit
from the use or attempted use of the processes and formulas described in
the following paper.
As is the case with all corrosive solutions, these formulas should
be handled with care and in good ventilation.
Heat-treating and soldering of copper and copper based alloys can
often coat the metals with a combination of black (cupric) and red
(cuprous) oxide. The black oxide is easily removed in a standard warm
sulfuric acid pickle or Sparex bath. This will leave a red smut, which,
with other undissolved oxides, forms a red oxide scale. This scale
readily oxidizes further, leaving a dark, nonuniform patina. Oxides can
be imbedded in the metal during subsequent forging and drawing, so it
should be removed. Abrasive removal of the oxides can result in loss of
design details and crisp edges on finished work. The following simple
chemical treatment is offered as an alternate method for its removal.
Hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) pickle eliminates the need for abrasives,
and has the added attraction of being relatively inoffensive. The
following procedures and formulas provide for the removal of red scale
from copper, brass, bronze, nickel silver, reticulation silver and some
gold alloys. It will remove the copper coating from silver that has been
accidentally pickled in an iron contaminated acid bath. Curiously, it
will also remove the natural oxide layer found on some aluminums. There
is a great deal of latitude in the formulas and a variety of surface
finishes and textures can be obtained.
It is suggested that you run some tests before applying these
formulas to your work. Find the procedure and formula that best fits your
needs. When working with any acid or strong oxidant the possibility of
damaging your work always exists. These formulas can dissolve a brass
piece and leave the silver solder seams standing.
Some points to remember when using hydrogen peroxide pickles:
1) Adding more acid to the solution will not improve
its action. The acid is just a catalyst or starter.
2) Iron and silver will tend to shorten the life of the bath.
This does not mean you cannot put these metals in
the bath. It just will not last as long.
3) Use only diluted sulfuric acid pickle, Sparex or
vinegar as the catalyst in these solutions.
4) Use 3% hydrogen peroxide available in drug stores, or
mix a 2-3% solution from distilled water and concen-
trated H2O2 (usually 30%), available through a
chemical supply house. More concentrated hydrogen
peroxide pickles (5%) can be mixed when deep, fast
etching is desired. (Warning! Concentrated acid
and strong oxidizing agents are very dangerous.
30% H2O2 is rocket fuel, it is explosive and not to be
toyed with. Do not attempt without proper training
and equipment.)
5) Use these solutions warm(110xF), or about the tempera-
ture of a hot bath. I usually set up a double boiler arrangement. The
hotter the pickle; the faster and coarser the etch
and the shorter its life.
6) Be smart, wear protective clothing and gloves. Do not
work with chemicals alone. Work only in a properly
ventilated area.
The following formulas can be made up as needed, or they can be
premixed and kept for an extended time in the original brown bottle. They
can be reused until saturated (blue) or it stops working. Hydrogen
peroxide decomposes rapidly when exposed to light(That is the reason for
the brown bottle.). The active life of these pickles is limited to about
four exposed hours. You can extend the life of the solution by storing it
in
the brown bottle.
When there is a sulfuric acid component in these solutions it is
already diluted with water to a standard pickle consistency of 5-10%. The
catalysts can be either measured or slowly added until bubbles begin to
appear on a test sample of the metal. This signals that the solution is
active.
SOLUTION #One (mild):
2 parts Hydrogen Peroxide (3%).
1 part water.
2-4% fresh sulfuric acid pickle(5-10%) or Sparex solution.
SOLUTION #Two (strong):
1/2 cup Hydrogen Peroxide (3%).
1 Tablespoon fresh sulfuric acid pickle(5-10%) or Sparex solution.
PROCEDURE:
STEP #1: Prepickle the piece in standard Sparex or sulfuric acid pickle
solution and rinse well. All the black oxides should be removed in this
step.
STEP #2: Place the Hydrogen Peroxide pickle container in a second bowl
of hot water to keep it warm. If possible suspend the piece in the warm
pickle or stir it gently with a feather or plastic rod . After a moment
bubbles should appear on the piece. Agitate or brush with a feather to
clear the bubbles. Remove the piece from the bath every couple of minutes
to check the progress. It may take 5-10 minutes. Rinse well.
STEP #3: Use a stiff tooth brush or brass brush to remove residue and
rinse.
STEP #4: Pickle again in standard Sparex or sulfuric acid solution (5
10%) to remove any remaining smut.
STEP #5: Repeat steps #2, #3 and #4 if necessary.
SOLUTION #Three: (For the weak at heart!)
3 parts Hydrogen Peroxide (3%).
1 part white vinegar (5%).
PROCEDURE:
Follow the steps #1-3 listed for solutions #One & #Two. When the metal
emerges from the pickle, it will be coated with a thick brownish green
smut. Really ugly! This will flash off when dipped in undiluted white
vinegar.
Notes:
These solutions can also be applied to warm metal with a brush and worked
into hard to get corners and intricate designs.
Long term exposure to these pickles can cause the copper to be
dissolved out of an alloy's surface. Brass, for instance, can be pickled
until it turns bright yellow. Even the mildest of the vinegar solutions
can deeply etch if left unattended. A deep etch will often reveal the
underlying crystal structure of the metal. Care should be taken and the
process watched closely.
This paper my be copied and distributed freely as long as no payment
is accepted.
Hydrogen Peroxide pickle does not remove firescale from sterling
silver. That oxide is black, not pink! Sorry!
Bill Seeley developed this formula while studying for his jewelry MFA
in the Department of Design at the University of Kansas. The formulas are
reverse engineered from a more toxic commercial application of hydrogen
peroxide.
Bill Seeley MFA / Member-SNAG
Reactive Metals Studio, Inc. / Corp.President
PO box 890 Clarkdale, AZ 86324 / Interest-exotic metals
reac...@sedona.net
Tesno30
Thank you all for your responses about flux.
Has anyone ever worked with Handy Liquid Flux made by Handy & Harman?
What is Prip's flux?
Thanks again
Lisa
Scott Buckner
In article <54dn63$d...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> peter...@aol.com (PeterWRowe) writes:
>From: peter...@aol.com (PeterWRowe)
>Subject: Re: A question about flux
>Date: 20 Oct 1996 13:23:15 -0400
(SNIP)
>What's the rush? Muriatic acid (which is actually dilute industrial
>grade Hydrochloric acid) isn't really all that active with copper. Don't
>leave the piece soaking forever, but you don't really have to panic and
>rinse in all that quickly. Actually, copper alloys are not that much of a
>problem with fire scale, as those oxides stay on the surface of the metal.
I know that, and you know that, but I was just trying to avoid people letting
their pieces swim in muriatic all day, especially those who haven't dealt with
it that much, is all ...
> Even when it's fairly thick and ugly, it doesn't penatrate into the good
>metal the way it does with silver or gold. So it's easy to dissolve, even
>with just plain old ordinary pickling solutions. Pickle (sulphuric acid
>salts) will still leave a pinkish cast to the otherwise clean metal on
>brass and bronze. Copper will be nicely cleaned to the copper. You can
>effectively get rid of the pinkish cast on brass or bronze, if you need
>to, with a peroxide and sulphuric acid mix. The easiest version of this
>is to dip out a little of the pickle solution (hot), add your piece, and
>pour in a bit of drugstore peroxide. let it soak five or ten minutes.
>Don't put that mix back into the pickle pot when done, and it doesn't last
>very long, so you'll have to discard it. For more precise and
>technically correct versions of this technique, you'll want to read Bill
>Seeley's paper on it that Reactive Metals Inc. sells, and if anyone is
>interested, I'll see if I can dig up, in my 'saved messages" file, the
>newsgroup posting he put in a while back on the subject. And for those
>of you with troubles with silver fire scale, I'm reposting my article on
>Pripps Flux.
And I think that was the essence of this whole thing -- paste flux (be it
Phipps or whatever) wins hands down over the commercially available, liquid
borax-based stuff
By the way, nice Phipps recipe ...
Bruce Holmgrain
Peter Rowe wrote:
>What an invite...
>A couple comments on the self pickling fluxes... They aren't crap at all.
> They are just designed primarily for the typical commercial work in gold.
> For the jeweler soldering heads onto a gold ring, Batterns is a fine flux
>to use. The principal attributes of the stuff is that it's an active
>enough flux to allow solder flow, but not extremely active, so it won't
>burn off too quickly on gold work, while at the same time (and this is the
>key to the stuff) not promoting excessive fire scale at the solder joint.
>The white paste fluxes, such as dandix and handy flux, are much more
>active fluxes, and promote solder flow much better, but tend to actually
>promote fire scale formation around the joint as they work and burn off.
>Batterns won't leave you with a gold ring and white gold heads with a
>bunch of hard to polish blackish crap in the crevices around the head as
>readily as will the white paste fluxes. Mind you, if you over heat the
>piece, it will still do it. With silver, though, Batterns is a waste of
>time. It's not designed for that use, despite what the bottle says. And
>with copper or brass? Not a chance. But many jewelers happily use
>Batterns with gold work with no problems.
I'd go a little further and say that Battern's will in fact disolve oxides
from white gold, easing clean up around diamonds. In building white gold wire
mountings with diamonds, I will often coat the work with Batterns maybe a
couple/few coats and bring it to a red heat and pickling before setting stones
or polishing. This action usually eliminates any need to strip the work. I was
weened on Handy & Harman, but I've never gone back since I learned about this.
Can't address silver, don't do much.
******************************************************
Bruce D. Holmgrain
E-mail: Manmount...@Knight-Hub.com
WWW: http://www.knight-hub.com/manmtndense/bhh3.htm
Snail Mail: POB 7972, McLean, VA 22106
John Burgess
> .
John Burgess
On 20 Oct 1996 16:20:47 -0400, tes...@aol.com (Tesno30) wrote:
>
> What is Prip's flux?
>
> Thanks again
>
> Lisa
PRIPPS FLUX:-
Borax 15grams
Sodium hydrogen phosphate 15g
Boric acid 22 g
Water to 250 mls
Any good pharmacy will make this up for you and it shouldn't be too
costly. Just apply it to the work liberally, heat it gently and
when white place your solder chips, then heat the work - not the
solder - and if the joins are touching the solder will flash into
the seams. Pickle in your usual pickle. This flux will help keep
your work clear of firestain, so long as you don't heat for too long.
Good luck,John Burgess
mnugent
From a commercial point of view, the white fluxes commonly used in
repairing stone set jewellery can burn pit marks into some gemstones and
this especially a problem with sapphires. It is just too much of a problem
to remove the gemstones in certain cases so we use one of the liquid fluxes
instead. I personally use the green/yellow Auflux (the name says it all) in
my business and find it far more versatile and friendly than the white
powder fluxes. To prevent firescale to some degree, you could dip your work
in a solution of Boric Acid and alcohol and burn off the alcohol to leave a
coating of Boric Acid. This can then be removed by your pickle solution or
hot water. I don't use the sulphuric based pickle in my business, instead I
use a solution of sodium bisulphate and water. A very safe pickle with no
fumes, and it doesn't burn holes in your clothes.
Michael Nugent
Tesno30 <tes...@aol.com> wrote in article
<543un4$q...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>...
PeterWRowe
>
>And I think that was the essence of this whole thing -- paste flux (be it
>Phipps or whatever) wins hands down over the commercially available,
liquid
>borax-based stuff
>
>By the way, nice Phipps recipe ..
Your welcome. But I'm only passing it on. Didn't invent it. It's named,
by the way, pRipps, flux, not pHipps... Named after Jack Pripp, one of
the pioneers in the amercan metalsmithing revival that took place after
world war 2. He taught for many, many years at Rochester Institute of
Technology, and is well known as one of the premier artists and
silversmiths of this country in the last 50 years...
Peter Rowe