LEAD IS DEAD!
Platypus Art Glass
I am not aware of any other construction and/or assembly methods in the world
today that utilize pure lead as a primary material. So, why is this still
practiced in the art glass panel industry?
Who knows? Could it be related to the manufacturers and distributors of glass
supplies who make considerably more profit on the necessary supplies for lead
came windows? Certainly, it cannot be attributed to ignorance, as anyone with
a high school education can look around in the world and see that lead is not
used as a primary construction material.
In my opinion lead came should only be used in the restoration and/or
preservation of old art glass windows with some type of significance. Not just
because they are old. Several times in the past I have restored old lead came
windows by ripping the entire panel apart and reassembling with copper foil
leaded construction. Each of these restorations were re-done in foil at the
request of the client.
Malleability (able to take the form of various shapes without breaking) vs.
Ductility (able to be stretched thin without breaking, pliant).
Both Copper and Lead are malleable. However, only copper is ductile. In
relation to art glass panels, the ductility and malleability of copper allow it
to be made into thin tape and take the form of the piece of glass while still
maintaining its strength in the form it has been applied to. This is not so
with lead. Although malleable, lead has no ductile ability and strength.
Which can be stated that while lead can take the form of a shape, it cannot
hold that form for long.
Life of the metal. Lead will began to decompose and detereriorate almost
immediatly when subjected to the natural environment. Throw a piece of lead
came outside your studio door and see what it looks like in a month's time.
Copper is an unusual metal in that the oxidation that occurs with copper in the
natural enviornment causes the copper to from a protective skin, so to speak,
to stop the elements from eating it away, and the properties of the metal allow
it to hold its shape.
The Statue of Liberty is the best example of this capability of copper. The
skin of the statue is pure copper. The oxidation has turned it a shade of
turquoise green. If it had not been for the original iron skeleton rusting
away on the inside, the Statue of Liberty would most likely have not suffered
any ill effects. The copper skin only suffered were it was in contact with the
rusting iron.
Rain gutters. Copper was the material for rain gutters before tin and aluminum
came along. Some custom builders still use copper although the cost is high.
Still though, you can look around the world and see copper rain gutters that
were installed decades and decades ago that are not decomposing and still
carrying out the function they were made for.
Lead will break down and blow away from exposure to natural elements. I am not
aware of any lead that is still around that was used in construction before
technology brought better metals and alloys and the knowledge of the properties
of metals.
So, all of this leads me to ask the question, Why is lead still used as a
primary construction material for art glass panels? The strength issue is not
relevant as the aforementioned demonstrated. Why is lead panel construction
still taught as being as good or superior to other construction methods of art
glass panels?
I believe that there are other materials that will satisfy a designers desire
for absolute straight and uniform lines. Brass for one. The Mexicans have
been utilizing channel brass construction in art glass for a number of years,
yet I do not see this in the states or other areas on a large scale. Why?
Everytime I see a gorgeous leaded panel I am saddened. Depending on the
installation, the lead panel will have to under go some type of repair within 1
to 20 years. This is not so with copper foil leaded construction. I believe
that the original Tiffany copper foil shades would not have had to undergo
restoration if they had not been moved and packed around over the years. A
perfect example of this is a window in the quilt museum in Paducah, KY. Bowed
and sagging out of the installation.
Past dialogs in this newsgroup said that the glass in old Tiffany shades
"rattled" within the copper sturcture because of the wax that was used to
adhere the copper to the edge of the glass had disappeared. However, it is
plainly obvious that the form and structure of the lamp was maintained due to
the use of copper, and not lead.
So, it would be my wish that leaded art glass panel construction would be
discontinued and the manufacturers, distributors, and retailers of glass
supplies would stop duping the new students into leaded panel construction for
the sake of a dollar. I mean look around, recently in this newsgroup we have
had new students to glass being instructed that casual touching of lead came
during construction will lead to lead poisoning. What malarkey!
While I will remain bias towards copper foil leaded construction until I die,
there are many other metal construction methods that will satisfy those that
lead currently dominate. Also, it would seem that there would need to be
better instruction concerning how to be able to solder a line properly to
achieve a unifrom and aesthetically pleasing line of solder, whether it be a
lead alloy or one of the many new lead free alloys. Rather than being lazy and
relying on the machine manufacture of lead to provide the line you desire.
Rather than relying on lead to cover up the rough edges of glass and utilizing
a "putty" to hold the panel together, relize that the glass worker can better
utilize materials and processes to achieve the desired result, not necessarily
copper foil which is my own biased choice.
So, oldies and newbies, QUIT utilizing lead came construction and look to other
materials for construction of art glass panels.
Lastly, how many of you lead came art glass panel construction people sleep
well at night knowing that the panels you sell to an ignorant public will be
back in your shop or someone eles's due to the panel falling apart?
As I do not give a rat's ass about what other panel constructionists feel, any
snipes will be ignored. I sleep well at night knowing that I have sold and/or
provided my client/customer with a panel that will last longer than their
individual lifetimes. Plus, I guarantee my panels and projects for my lifetime
in regards to craftsmanship, materials, and durability. Have you ever
encountered a lead panel constructionist offering this type of guarantee? No.
Because they cannot.
Do you worship the craft and art of glass, or the dollar?
Paul E. Mullen Jr. 1/1/00
Free your mind and your glass will follow.
Paul E. Mullen Jr.
Artist-Craftsman
Platypus Art Glass
nietz...@hotmail.com
plat...@aol.com
Mary
--
>
> >
>
> In my opinion lead came should only be used in the restoration and/or
> preservation of old art glass windows with some type of significance. Not
just
> because they are old. Several times in the past I have restored old lead
came
> windows by ripping the entire panel apart and reassembling with copper
foil
> leaded construction. Each of these restorations were re-done in foil at
the
> request of the client.
( this is sad, because when you re-did in the copper-foil and did not reuse
or re- place the old lead you destroyed the historical value of the piece,
if there was on The use of the copper-foil technique should have been
discouraged and explained away. It is up to the restorationer to educate
the client.)
>
> I see where you are going in the rest of the long thought you posted.
However, copper, or brass are both very expensive metals compared to lead.
Leaded stained glass is expensive enough.
The added expense of copper channel is ridiculous for every application.
Panels today are well protected from the environment....because of the added
precautions that are offered and used.
I hope that lead is not taken from the market.
I like using it in channel form as well as in spool solder.
I do not like the way lead free solder looks or handles while working.
MH
Emerald Artwork and Glass Gallery
http://www.oldva.com/emerald/index.html
Andrew T
Hahahahahahahaa....this is absurd! Victor is correct...many windows
built 75-100 years ago are still there and in good shape. Please explain
how you are going to build a very intricate panel with copper or brass
came? And...I too would like to now how the window stayed the same size
when you substituted foil for lead...other than ending up with wide
solder lines and the panel ending up weighing four times as much.
Bert Weiss
Paul
On this issue you are so full of it your ears are turning brown.
Lead came is aesthetically a wonderfull mateial that has been the major
means for constructing art glass windows this entire millennium past. I
have constructed art glass windows using both copper foil and lead came.
Post modern design sensibilities often require copper foil construction.
Personally I prefer the entire process and aesthetic of lead came windows.
The design challenge with lead came is quite difficult. Most designers
today make a drawing and cut it out of glass and surround the pieces of the
drawing with metal (lead or solder). This is a lousy approach and designs
made this way look like a picture with heavy black lines surrounding each
color change. I don't care much for that look. A great designer utilizing
lead came, or foil, will create a design that has a counter point of lead
line and imagery. The two systems interact to create a composition that
can be truly spiritually moving.
Aesthetically I prefer the style of leaded glass that uses antique glass,
and kiln fired paints and stains. This look cannot be matched by any other
technique. Some designers I particulary like are Marc Chagall, Joep
Nicholas, Patrick Reyntiens (and his collaborating designers), and Albinus
Elskus. These guys all use the lead line to enhance the designs not just
to wrap metal around color changes.
From a structural point of view, I like using lead came particularly to
make large panels. I have seen many panels 3 feet wide and 10 feet tall.
I wouldn't want to think about a panel like that made with foil. I have
seen panels that have lasted much longer than 100 years and are in pretty
good shape. The biggest problems came from the changing construction
styles, adding protection glazing improperly or no protection glazing.
Before the industrial revolution lead panels lasted forever. Today acid
rain etc takes it's toll on art glass. Today in new construction we know
to install insulated glass to the weather and properly vented leaded glass
in the interior. If designed right these windows should last longer than
the ones made in the late 1800's. I have repaired leaded glass that was
poorly designed from a structural stand point. The windows were very well
constructed it was the design that caused breaking and sagging. Very small
changes could have been made that would have allowed those windows to
survive intact for much longer than they did.
From an economical point of view. Lead came windows are faster and cheaper
to construct. Not having to pay attention the the exact shape of the edge
of the glass allows you to go much faster. There is no need of a grinder.
(I will add that I don't care much for victorian geometric designs that use
the thinnest lead cames.)
Ironically I have adopted a style of art glass that does not use lead came
or copper foil. I enamel on large pieces of float glass. This technique
uses technology to get away without having to use a lead line. There are
many factors that lead me to this technique, not the least of which is my
inability to be the quality of designer I admire.
In the future I plan to learn techniques for laminating float and antique
glasses, in a mosiac style technique, that does not use metal in the
construction. So while my practice is working with techniques that do not
utilize lead, my heart still loves the traditional techniques. If it
weren't for people like Albinus Elskus who taught many of us the
traditional glass painting, these techniques would have been lost. The
thought of lead being banned from use would truly make the world a drearier
place.
As far as replacing lead came with copper foil, the idea sounds disgusting.
Making the panels look good would be much to difficult for me. In fact in
windows I know about, it would be impossible to do. Lead came windows are
cut from a different size pattern than copper foil windows. This would
leave lots of air gaps between the glass. These gaps make the panel
structurally much weaker than a panel that is cut out accurately for
intentional use of copper foil. Geometric designs are extremely difficult
to do with foil. Your eye can automatically see imperfections. Organic
shapes are better suited for foiling.
No other material does what lead does. It is not replacable.
Bert
Bert Weiss Art Glass
Custom Productions
Furniture
Sculpture
Lighting
Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Mary
to mean to bring in a "new" supposedly better product.....copper channel.
BOTH copper foil and lead have their strengths.
I have NEVER needed to repair any one of the many, many pieces I have
constructed!!! And the church windows I have done are still, after several
years, intact Bucko.
I genuinely "Thought" that you were leading into a new 'conversation'. I
did not think it was a leading questionnaire to provide a backdrop of abuse.
I DO NOT now, in the past, and most likely in the future, NEED to defend my
work.
I do very well constructed work. The subject may not please you or anyone
else.
BUT I did not do the piece to please YOU.
Oh and I do not like the work coming from China.
Mary Hunt
--
Mike Firth
>
> By the way, lead/ tin solder is not lead it is an alloy. Alloy metals are
> totally different in physical properties from the metals that form the alloy.
>
Yup, for example, lead/tin melts at a different temperature. But an alloy is not
a chemical compound (as say the dangerous sodium and the dangerous chlorine combine
to make table salt) and the bone and brain harming features of lead are there in
the solder as well as the (more nearly pure) lead came. People who handle lead
(and other heavy metals) should not eat or drink in their workspace and should wash
their hands and change their clothes before tracking lead from the workspace to the
floors where their children play and their kitchens where food is cooked.
You make some valid points and bury them in misaimed accusations, rude language
and self answered rhetoric.
Mike Firth
Hot Glass Bits newsletter and furnace glass information web site
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MikeFirth/
Jeffrey Castaline
Let me see if I can comment on this discussion without getting my head
chopped off (-:
1. Neither lead nor foil techniques are more difficult or time consuming.
They're just "Different. Yes, you have to putty and clean lead, but that
balances our having to foil all the pieces in a Tiffany style project. The
time involved is about the same.
2. Regarding lasting durability. This is pretty much nowadays a mute
discussion since many area building codes more and more are insisting that
stained glass is protected on the outside of an installation with plate
glass for safety and reasons of insulation. Single or double bonding is more
or less the rule rather than the exception. It also makes more sense. When
you install a beautiful sidelight next to the front door, I don't think
anyone wants the paperboy throwing the daily paper through it.
3. Size and strength. Not even a consideration anymore. Lead panels up to 10
sq.ft in size don't normally require reinforcement depending on the pattern
and overall complexity this is not a hard and firm rule. Foiled panels
nomially follow the same rule. However, depending on the design and
installation, there is internally reinforced came available for lead as well
as internal copper reinforcing strips that fit between the lead and the
glass. For foil, again depending on complexity of design, either the copper
reinforcing strips or pre-tinned braided copper wire (Flex-Bar) when the run
from one side of a panel to the other is very circuitous, and flexibility is
needed (No pun intended.) For larger projects in either medium or
combinations of mediums, there is also zinc came, brass came, the
aforementioned rebars, etc.
4. Next to last. There are many different approaches to doing "Artglass" as
we know it. (Stained Glass being a misnomer since we normally don't "Stain"
the glass anymore.) Depending on the artists knowledge, experience and level
of accomplishment, many approaches are available and most of them work.
Different Strokes and all that.
5. I occassionaly blurt out my frustrations as individuals who post
"Tainted" messages that are inflammatory, insulting and just obnoxious, but
aren't we suppoed to be exchanging infomation to mutually help each other,
rather than turning the news group into an open battleground?
Let's move on (_:
--
Jeffrey Castaline
Partner/Owner
Aanraku Stained Glass
2323 S. El Camino Real
San Mateo, CA 94403
Tel: (650) 372-0527
Email: aan...@BayAreaStainedGlass.com
Webpage http://www.BayAreaStainedGlass.com
"Platypus Art Glass" <plat...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000101191318...@ng-fy1.aol.com...
> Hello Mary,
>
> >or re- place the old lead you destroyed the historical value of the
piece,
> >if there was on
>
> As my post clearly stated this was at the request of the client. And, no,
> there was no historical value to the panels, unless you consider the act
of
> being old, historical. Also, what possible historical significance could
a
> lead panel have when it cannot exist far into the future? Talk to some
> restorers of old glass, most of the ones I have spoken with honor the lead
came
> but reinforce under with copper, whether wire or tape.
>
> Practically all of the restoration efforts I have encountered in many
different
> fields utilize better materials underneath those that were originaly used.
> Obviously, this is done to save the cost of future repairs and
restorations.
>
> >Leaded stained glass is expensive enough.
> >The added expense of copper channel is ridiculous for every application.
>
> So what are you saying to your clients and customers, that because lead is
> cheaper you can pass the savings on to them? I challenge you to give ONE
> example of what you state to be true. Since you obviously do not know
what you
> are saying, give an example of a product that you are currently
constructing
> from lead came that is much cheaper to produce than foil. You cannot.
> Challenge me to produce a panel with foil that you do in lead came. Not
only
> will my panel be better, but I will most likely be able to produce it
faster
> and cheaper than your lead panel.
>
> Bullshi?. The cost of hand made art glass panels is in the labor, not the
> materials. Why do you think that so many imports from China and Mexico
> infiltrate our market? Labor cost. Not material cost.
>
> Gallery Glass is much cheaper than lead or copper foil, since you are so
> concerned with savings on materials and have no concern about longevity,
why
> don't you switch to this plastic method of decorating if your concern is
for
> profit rather than qualtiy of craftspersonship .
>
> >Panels today are well protected from the environment....because of the
> added
> >precautions that are offered and used.
>
> What might these be? Rebar? A new type of putty? Or another type of
> reinforcement?. Had you used foil or another metal instead you would not
have
> this problem. What about the extra cost of these "added precautions?
>
> How many of your own panels have you had to repair?
>
> I am glad now that I never had the opportunity to visit your site, as the
page
> would never load on two different ISP's. I most likely would have been
> disgusted.
>
> By the way, lead/ tin solder is not lead it is an alloy. Alloy metals are
> totally different in physical properties from the metals that form the
alloy.
>
> I feel sorry for all of the people that have purchased your products since
they
> will have to eventually visit a real glass worker to have your work
repaired.
>
> As demonstrated, your reply is sorely lacking in logic. How in the world
can
> lead came, putty, and reinforcements be cheaper than plain old copper tape
and
> solder?
>
> Labor is practicaly the same for identical panels done in copper and lead.
The
> extra cost is associated with lead. A logical fallacy is that copper is
more
> expensive. When the only real reason it is generally more expensive than
lead
> is because of added detail that cannot be obtained with lead came. This
extra
> cost cannot be attributed soley to the extra step of grinding the edges of
the
> glass for foil. Since you have to putty a lead came window and wait for
the
> putty to set up. Not to mention the added cleaning and detail work that
is not
> associated with copper foil construction.
>
> Get off of your self-made mountain and find out what real glass work is
about.
> Rather than perpetuating and continuing the archaic and incorrect attitude
that
> you were taught and stubbornly hold onto.
>
> How many of your students post in this group and elsewhere trying to sort
> through the misinformation you have provided, trying to figure out what
their
> own common sense tells them between what you and your so called expertise
have
> shown them.
>
> Lastly, the work stands alone, or should. Examples of my work may be
found at
> my space: http://members.aol.com/platypi00
>
> All of the pics posted are of work done this year, all are sold. The
owners
> have no qualms about their panel(s). Since, all of mine are guaranteed
for my
> life against defects in craftmanship, materials, and construction. Do you
> offer any type of similar guarantee?
>
> I thought not.
>
> Before you get pissed off at me, look at your work. Then you will find a
> reason to to really get pissed off.
>
> I will challenge anyone who believes that their came work is superior to
foil
> work, in ANY application.
>
> E-mails for this challenge may be sent to nietz...@hotmail.com or
> plat...@aol.com.
>
> I will most assuredly let my clients and communication circles know that
> Emerald Artwork and Glass Gallery is not the place to look for
contemporary art
> glass.
>
> I am not angry. I am more disapointed and saddened that a potentially
good
> glassworker believes what a corrupt industry has shown her.
victo...@my-deja.com
"Mary" <mshe...@midstatesd.net> wrote:
>
>
> --
> >
> > >
> >
> > In my opinion lead came should only be used in the restoration
and/or
> > preservation of old art glass windows with some type of
significance. Not
> just
> > because they are old. Several times in the past I have restored
old lead
> came
> > windows by ripping the entire panel apart and reassembling with
copper
> foil
> > leaded construction. Each of these restorations were re-done in
foil at
> the
> > request of the client.
>
not reuse
piece,
> discouraged and explained away. It is up to the restorationer to
educate
> the client.)
> >
> > I see where you are going in the rest of the long thought you
posted.
> However, copper, or brass are both very expensive metals compared to
lead.
> The added expense of copper channel is ridiculous for every
application.
the added
> precautions that are offered and used.
> I like using it in channel form as well as in spool solder.
> I do not like the way lead free solder looks or handles while working.
>
> MH
>
>
What the heck are you talking about? Lead windows can have a life span
of + or - 100 years. That's a long time. As far as restoration is
concerned, I suggest you look the word up in the dictonary. You are not
restoring a window by building it in another style. By the way didn't
the window become too small for the opening, when you substituted the
foil? By the way how do you do on site repairs to all the foil windows
you make? I can go on, but I it just came to me that this post is to
just create some talk. As I can't beleave you're for real.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Platypus Art Glass
>or re- place the old lead you destroyed the historical value of the piece,
>if there was on
As my post clearly stated this was at the request of the client. And, no,
there was no historical value to the panels, unless you consider the act of
being old, historical. Also, what possible historical significance could a
lead panel have when it cannot exist far into the future? Talk to some
restorers of old glass, most of the ones I have spoken with honor the lead came
but reinforce under with copper, whether wire or tape.
Practically all of the restoration efforts I have encountered in many different
fields utilize better materials underneath those that were originaly used.
Obviously, this is done to save the cost of future repairs and restorations.
>Leaded stained glass is expensive enough.
>The added expense of copper channel is ridiculous for every application.
So what are you saying to your clients and customers, that because lead is
cheaper you can pass the savings on to them? I challenge you to give ONE
example of what you state to be true. Since you obviously do not know what you
are saying, give an example of a product that you are currently constructing
from lead came that is much cheaper to produce than foil. You cannot.
Challenge me to produce a panel with foil that you do in lead came. Not only
will my panel be better, but I will most likely be able to produce it faster
and cheaper than your lead panel.
Bullshi?. The cost of hand made art glass panels is in the labor, not the
materials. Why do you think that so many imports from China and Mexico
infiltrate our market? Labor cost. Not material cost.
Gallery Glass is much cheaper than lead or copper foil, since you are so
concerned with savings on materials and have no concern about longevity, why
don't you switch to this plastic method of decorating if your concern is for
profit rather than qualtiy of craftspersonship .
>Panels today are well protected from the environment....because of the
added
>precautions that are offered and used.
What might these be? Rebar? A new type of putty? Or another type of
Jeffrey Castaline
Couldn't find the church windows.
Could you direct me to their location?
Thanks
--
Jeffrey Castaline
Partner/Owner
Aanraku Stained Glass
2323 S. El Camino Real
San Mateo, CA 94403
Tel: (650) 372-0527
Email: aan...@BayAreaStainedGlass.com
Webpage http://www.BayAreaStainedGlass.com
"Mary" <mshe...@midstatesd.net> wrote in message
news:s2Ab4.89159$Ym1.1...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
> I did not say re-enforcing was not a good move. I saw what you were
writing
> to mean to bring in a "new" supposedly better product.....copper channel.
> BOTH copper foil and lead have their strengths.
>
> I have NEVER needed to repair any one of the many, many pieces I have
> constructed!!! And the church windows I have done are still, after
several
> years, intact Bucko.
>
> I genuinely "Thought" that you were leading into a new 'conversation'. I
> did not think it was a leading questionnaire to provide a backdrop of
abuse.
>
> I DO NOT now, in the past, and most likely in the future, NEED to defend
my
> work.
> I do very well constructed work. The subject may not please you or anyone
> else.
> BUT I did not do the piece to please YOU.
>
> Oh and I do not like the work coming from China.
>
> Mary Hunt
>
> --
> Emerald Artwork and Glass Gallery
> http://www.oldva.com/emerald/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
>
>
Jeffrey Castaline
Why would you assume I was being sarcastic?
I was not. If I were, there would be no doubt.
I'm anything but subtle when it comes to that (-:
I am quite serious in my desire to view your windows.
I assumed you were proud of them and would want to show them off.
As a professional who has been doing glass for
about 37 years, I am always interested in the professional
work of others. Aren't you?
As far as enticing clients, Just create a separate section on your
webpage for those who would want to view that venue of your work.
Jeffrey Castaline
Partner/Owner
Aanraku Stained Glass
2323 S. El Camino Real
San Mateo, CA 94403
Tel: (650) 372-0527
Email: aan...@BayAreaStainedGlass.com
Webpage http://www.BayAreaStainedGlass.com
----- Original Message -----
From: "Mary Hunt" <mshe...@midstatesd.net>
To: "Jeffrey Castaline" <aan...@estainedglass.net>
Sent: Saturday, January 01, 2000 9:36 PM
Subject: Re: LEAD IS DEAD!
> So would you care to order some church windows?
> I did not put pictures of those in the site, since I felt I would be
trying
> to entice ordinary clients, and not liturgical clients. These are
generally
> sought after in the towns near where the glass artist resides. At least
> this is the method I have witnessed.
> They are on slides.
> I can mail them to you if you must see them.
> But I assume you are being sarcastic.
> To which I do not deserve.
> This privilege is reserved for Paul free your mind Mullens.
> I hope you do not plan to follow his footsteps and be an obnoxious
> participant.
> MH
> Emerald Artwork and Glass Gallery
> http://www.oldva.com/emerald/index.html
> > > Emerald Artwork and Glass Gallery
> > > http://www.oldva.com/emerald/index.html
Platypus Art Glass
I am not surprised at the attitudes and comments that have been displayed
concerning my post that Lead is Dead.
However, while many of you have decided to attack and destroy the information I
posted, NONE OF YOU WHO HAVE REPLIED OFFERED TO TAKE A PERSONAL CHALLENGE TO
PROVE YOUR MEAGER POINTS. Only defending and stating your individual opinions.
I feel that my original post was objective from the standpoint of viewing both
lead and foil panels from the outside of the Art Glass Industry and the
materials that they are constructed from.
I clearly stated that I am biased towards foil, yet I did not once put down or
criticize anyone's work with lead came construction.
Only asked a simple question. Which, none of the replies wanted to address.
Also, none of the responses sought to rise to my challenge.
Talk is cheap in this sense. Put up your skill with lead came construction to
my foil construction or shut up.
Yes, I am for real. And if you cannot account for how I adapted the lead
design to a foil design while maintaining the integrity of the original panels
than maybe you should take some more glass classes from instructors that will
not teach you that lead is superior.. The only hint I will lend is that the
heart of the h-lead you all worship is app. 1/16 of an inch.
This post was a continuation of a previous post, Why I Use Foil, which was the
result of a query as to why I personally use foil. That post was in the same
vein as this post, yet there were no replies demonstrating the hostility and
defensiveness that this post has garnered.
Although admitedly bias towards foil, I feel that both original posts were
objective in the presentation of the information.
At the end of the why I use foil post I stated my objectives and that I would
post this thread, Lead is Dead, in the future. Allowing lead came people to
offer reasons why lead came is so great. Rather than do this, all of you want
to defend the mistakes you made in the past and continue to make in the future
by discounting FACTS.
None of you have offered any evidence to the point I was attempting to make in
the Lead is Dead thread.
Someone even stated that lead came construction will last 100 + years while
leaving out where these windows can be seen. As it has been my experience that
repair and/or restoration takes place within 20 years at the maximum of lead
panel construction. It is likely that the poster that stated this is not fully
aware of the history surrounding these 100+ year lead came panels.
The specific window I mentioned in the quilt museum is/was mounted on the
interior of a relatively new building that has double-layer thermal panes of
clear glass. The fact that this bowing condition would not have happened with
copper foil construction is not my opinion, it is fact. While it is also fact
that the reason this lead came panel bowed so badly was due to the lead came
construction.
Many, many years ago I had the good fortune of viewing the largest stained
glass panels ever made to date. I believe that they were originally
constructed for a World Fair held in Chicago. Both of these panels were at
Sanford and Son Antiques on St. Helens Avenue in Dtown Tacoma, WA. I do not
remember the exact dimensions, but they were at least 12' x 12'.
The trajedy of these panels was the subsequent reinforcement that had to be
added to keep them from sagging apart that ultimately ruined the overall design
of the panels.
I believe and will prove in the future that this type of panel size
construction is possible with foil, as these panels demonstrated that it is
impossible with lead came and putty.
None of you responded to my statements concerning the expansion and contraction
issues of glass panels in my Why I Use Foil post. None of you have disputed
the FACT that copper is a superior metal to Lead in construction of any type.
No, all of you got defensive and hostile because of a simple question, Why is
Lead Panel construction still utilized when there are superior metals to lead,
not necessarily copper foil, that do not decompose like pure lead came. I even
gave a specific example of the channel brass construction that the Mexicans
have used for years. Where is the comment on this FACT?
I never stated that copper foil was the only way, rather that there are much
better materials that will replace what lead is currently used for and the
design implications would not be compromised.
If my ears are "brown" due to being full of shit, than demonstrate why you
believe I am full of shit. The responses to my objective information
concerning the properties of Lead and Copper have sorely failed to provide an
explanation as to why lead came construction is still utilized today. And, I
also accounted for the significance of historical windows that should be
preserved with lead came.
Why have none of you admitted and/or addressed the reality that the majority of
these restorations were reinforced with copper under the lead came
construction?
I never said anything about copper channel construction. As far as I know
there is no such thing as copper channel. Obviously the basic question of my
original post was overlooked along with the factual information due to ego's
and defensivness.
The attitudes displayed here remind me of when Galileo demonstrated the truth
of Copernicus' theory that the earth was not geocentric, the church locked him
up until he recanted.
Lastly, good art glass is good art glass, whether it is made in the ghetto's of
China or Mexico. If your work cannot stand up to another's or the imports than
maybe you should go back to your garage and making panels for family and
friends. My only problem is those that wish to import this work and sell it as
their own. EBAY will demonstrate this practice.
Barbara Otterson
>
>How many of your students post in this group and elsewhere trying to sort
>through the misinformation you have provided, trying to figure out what their
>own common sense tells them between what you and your so called expertise have
>shown them.
>
>Lastly, the work stands alone, or should. Examples of my work may be found at
>my space: http://members.aol.com/platypi00
I'm staying out of the lead vs copper foil debate. I only have
one thing to say. HIRE A PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER.
Yes, I was shouting.
If you really value your work, show it in its best light. Half
your pictures were barely viewable. I think the work was lovely.
I think...most of the time I couldn't really tell.
Do your work justice. Get someone to photograph it who knows how.
Barbara
Dream Master
+-------------------------------------------+
Bert Weiss
I live and work in New England where there are hundreds of churches with
hundred year old unrepaired lead came windows. If a window needs repairing
after 20 years it was either poorly designed or constructed. I've seen
many of these.
There is no better material than lead came simply because no other material
does what lead does. Just because there are poor craftsmen or poor
designers being commissioned to make windows, doesn't make lead came or any
other material dead. Poor design will have structural problems no matter
what materials are used. Good design , structural and aesthetic, with lead
came, has created a wealth of fabulous architectural art glass all over the
planet. It is not a dead artform, simple as that. Copper foil is quite
different, and to my eye a lesser technique.
Lafarge used plating techniques in the center of panels, but not on the
borders. These panels were aesthetically beautiful, but they did not last
as long as they could have if they were desiged better from a structural
viewpoint.
You certainly have the perogative to use whatever materials you please to
make your art glass. Declaring the work of others to be dead is truly
obnoxious. People who teach lead came construction are doing the art world
a service.
Platypus Art Glass
Thank you for the compliments. And I agree with the photography.
However, at this particular time I am not really geared up in a professional
sense to warrant the expense of a professional photographer. As, all of my
capital is going towards the moving in and remodeling of my new studio which I
will occupy by the end of January.
The photos you saw on my space are from a HP c-20 digital camera which as you
pointed out do not quite cut it. Also, I altered the resloution of the photos
to be able to make the loading of them faster. Since the original resloution
puts them way above 350 KB. Although the higher resolution images look a
little better, they are still far from what a real photographer on film can
accomplish.
Lastly, these photo's are really only for my own records, not for a portfolio,
and I basically put them up to give an example of one type of glass work that I
do and work that was done in 99.
Wolfebas
Lead is used for some water tight joints as under toilets attached to iron
stacks and many flashings requiring malleability during installation such as
flashing for brick chimneys and wood gutters. Copper is used for complicated
flashings that are soldered, for pans under showers, and for other flashings
and gutters where the appearance of copper is preferred. I have been a
carpenter for 35 years and have seen that both lead and copper degrade after
long exposure to weather.
I'm going away from using solder altogether and do not use cames in my own
glass, but I absolutely agree with the comments that cames and foil look
different and that well designed came work is an integral part of much of the
glass I admire most.
I have heard Madeline Caviness, an art historian and authority on British
cathedral glass, say that conservation of the great windows calls for their
being removed, disassembled, and releaded every 100 years or so. Is this
really done?
John Bassett
John and Christina
andrea scholes
disappointed in the attitude from Platypus. I won't even get into the Lead
vs Foil issue either. Paul, you have your own point of view about lead vs
foil, and that's ok. Each of us has an opinion, and I thought that was what
newsgroups were all about - sharing information and opinions. Perhaps I was
mistaken.
I cannot believe how Mary was attacked by Paul for responding to the Lead is
Dead post. It would seem to me that she offered very valid points. If you
disagree with her opinions, that is one thing, but to attack her
professional and artistic integrity are quite another. None of us have that
right!
My husband and I have been creating art glass for approx 20 years, and we
always guarantee all of our work against faulty workmanship or materials.
Isn't that standard? I don't know a glass artist that DOESN'T stand behind
their workmanship. It is our responsibility! We do both lead and foil
work, and we have never had a window or any other piece of our work come
back to us, except in the case of a baseball going through it.
I just want to say, for the record, that I found your response to Mary
offensive, vindictive and very unprofessional. This is not what I expected
to find in my first venture into newsgroups. Differing opinions are great
for lively communications, but personal attacks should not be tolerated. I
certainly hope it was the exception, and not the norm!
Andrea Scholes, Scholes Stained Glass Studio
Wolfebas
"offensive, vindictive, and very umprofessional." Unfortunately, this is the
norm for Paul. But it is not the norm for the newsgroup. Fortunately, Paul is
kind of unusual here.
Jeffrey Castaline
--
Jeffrey Castaline
Partner/Owner
Aanraku Stained Glass
2323 S. El Camino Real
San Mateo, CA 94403
Tel: (650) 372-0527
Email: aan...@BayAreaStainedGlass.com
Webpage http://www.BayAreaStainedGlass.com
"andrea scholes" <asch...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:nY2c4.941$Sd3.1...@ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net...
Terry Harper
>
>I have heard Madeline Caviness, an art historian and authority on British
>cathedral glass, say that conservation of the great windows calls for their
>being removed, disassembled, and releaded every 100 years or so. Is this
>really done?
>
just carried out this work for my old college, Lincoln College, Oxford,
where the windows had been untouched since the 1800s.
--
Terry Harper, Acting Webmaster, The Omnibus Society
http://www.omnibussoc.org
E-mail: terry....@btinternet.com
URL: http://www.btinternet.com/~terry.harper/
Michele Blank
Jeffrey Castaline wrote in message ...
Marc Jones
You are assuming that Usenet newsgroups are populated by folks just like you
who want to share information and opinions. In fact, I think you will find
that they're are more than a few folks roaming around on Usenet that just
want to jam their opinions down everybody else's throat..... and the meaner
they can be while doing it the better. This used to bother me as well, but I
soon learned how to sort out the wheat from the chafe, and you will too. I
sure hope this doesn't turn you off the group altogether, as there is a lot
that can be learned from here. If someone repeatedly gets on your nerves you
can always resort to "Killfiles".
--
Marc
Visit me at the Deer Meadow Observatory Website,
and please check out Marc's Astronomy Shop while you are there:
http://go.to/ncstargazer
Dean Noyes
dpnoyes !
Dean Noyes
Mark
Michele Blank wrote:
> He seems more suited to alt.crafts.pofessional IMO. Michele
Ha ha ha ha ha! Good one. Perfect.
Kelly
attacking a person..makes you wonder when he has time to do glass.
--
Kelly
pj friend
I also think this topic was created to stimulate conversation.
Any professional glass artist who thinks that copperfoil was created for
fabrication of large architectural installations needs to do some reading
instead of guessing on the subject.
my best,
pj
--
Paul Friend Architectural Glass & Design, Inc.
www.waterw.com/~artglass
Accredited Studio Member of the Stained Glass Association of America
Member International Guild of Glass Artists
Associate Member AIA
"Bert Weiss" <be...@customartglass.com> wrote in message
news:bert-ya02408000R...@news.landmarknet.net...
> No other material does what lead does. It is not replacable.
barbara j cashman
still being used, in the light of "new" metals/alloys available to us
now. Lead is now alloyed with antimony (sp?)for strength, but it still
remains a very malleable (Paul's words) metal for the use. He suggested
copper, which does come in solid H cames, along with brass and zinc.
All are very sturdy materials. My experience with copper came is that
it takes a tremendous amount of heat to solder. Then the solder tends
to run all over the heated area and ruin the nice solder joint. Brass
also takes more heat than lead to accept a solder joint. Zinc seems to
be a little better, but we have some "recent" (within 10 years) zinc
panels which came in for repair, which were absolutely
disintegrating--and I really don't know why. However, I would not term
any of these metals "malleable" in this form. We have repaired original
Tiffany Studio windows, dated 1916, which were marvelously intact. They
even incorporated double and triple glazing. The only repair we really
needed to do was to replace the broken glass. I agree that lead, in
itself, can be a harmful material if disrespected. So can a bunch of
other things. Copper Foil is a marvelous creation. However, the foil's
purpose is to provide a track upon which the lead/tin solder is
applied--which is truly what holds the panel together. So we're back
where we started---with lead.
Bert Weiss
The best source I know of is your dentist. Dentists use a bur once or
twice and discard them. They may not last long but if you get the dentist
to save them for you they're free. You can also use those burs to sign
your name.
Experiment with stamping. The trick is to mix the enamels to just the
right consistency. I like acrylic water cleanup medium. It is available
from many sources like Reusche or Drakenfeld etc. Any medium can be made
to work with your stamps. Try "raised enamels" from Standard Ceramic
Supply Carnegie PA.
Bert
In article <zacc4.353$GI4....@ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, "andrea scholes"
<asch...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>my apologies to the group - I can see by the comments that you are all great
>people, and I'm glad I spoke my piece. Thanks for your input!
>
>Now, to the business of glass. I have been trying to find tiny drills to
>use in my dremel to make holes in glass. I have found a few sources,
>but...the drill bits only seem to hold up for 5 or 6 holes. I am using the
>dremel drill press and drilling the holes at approx 10,000 rpm (that's what
>the bits are rated at) and I'm drilling them under water. Any suggestions?
>I am using a 1/16 diamond coated drill bit. I use them for my glass
>jewelry, and each piece requires 6 or 7 holes.
>
>Also, does anyone do "stamping" on glass? I have been using fired on gold,
>copper and platinum, but would like to try other fired on enamals or paints
>with the rubber stamps - any suggestions? Andrea,
>www.artisansgallery.com/scholes
andrea scholes
andrea scholes
I posted this in the wrong place before - under Lead is Dead - seems to me,
that issue is dead. Anyway, my apologies to the group - I can see by the
Cole Sonafrank
and create beautiful and durable glass art integrating line and color?
To create awesome works on a grand scale which inspire and endure for
generations? Or, is it really just to work lead and personally help
perpetuate the production and use of one more of a bazillion useful but
toxic materials? Before becoming instantly outraged, please bear with
me.
The point in this discussion about lead, as most others, that frustrates
me even more than the verbal abuse is that it misses the point. There
are inarguably differences in appearance, sometimes subtle though
frequently obvious, between foil and came works. The machined
uniformity of came's surface texture alone is enough to ensure the
continued preference of came over foil by many. In addition to the
aesthetics, the process of creating with came is fundamentally different
in enough ways that some folks are bound to prefer it and excel with it
while perhaps detesting aspects of the foil methods. There are so many
arguments of process, efficiency, style and whatever that we usually get
lost there. Please step beyond these in calm peacefulness. Keep those
aspects of our art which you value. I neither imply nor advocate any
threat to them.
If some brave or foolish soul produced a came that behaved and looked
much the same as lead, would anybody care? Yes I know, there's even
some out there. Yuck. It's another reason the anti-lead discussions
usually lead nowhere. For once we've experienced something with a
similar name, we know it. It's easiest for us to think we do and that's
good. So we have an idea of what lead-free came is and we don't like
it. End of story. Too bad. But, sometimes adults learn to like
wonderful things they used to think were yucky as kids, thank God.
Sometimes even adults can still other things learn too. And so we
progress slowly in fits and starts. Until finally we get the point and
came lives in all its glory while lead dies away from day to day use.
First, we have to know what it is that we want and value. Folks it's
not the lead. It's how we can work with the glass and the came and what
we can create with it. The kicker is how cheap it is. As long as we
can utilize one of our greatest human strengths and blind ourselves to
what is inconvenient, the simple fact that lead remains the cheapest
option available will keep it alive. It's hard to finance research and
develop new materials that don't become cheap enough to use until
they're demanded en-mass. Fortunately, other trades (e.g. electronics)
and other needs to replace lead (e.g. living ecosystems) are providing
most of the impetus and capital. But we who love glass remain a staunch
supporter of lead use. So some folks will continue to push it for our
happiness and their profit. I'm sorry, but it reminds me too much of
tobacco and cocaine. We're lead addicts. Consider taking the first
step.
I suppose, since I don't use any lead in my glass work, I'm just an
enabler. I too love architectural glass made with came. I don't like
perpetuating the use of lead when I know quite well that other alloys of
reasonably inexpensive, non-toxic metals can produce came with
similarly desirable characteristics to lead. In some aspects they're
far superior (e.g. durability) and easier to use (e.g. higher melting
point). Unfortunately they're presently either slightly less malleable
(though far closer to lead than copper, brass, zinc or the other
supposed options commonly mentioned), or prohibitively more expensive.
We ignore the fact that a significant part of the cost is determined by
demand, which is our option not to create. So, nobody uses the best
alloys to make excellent lead-free came.
I can tell you though, Johnson Manufacturing (319-289-5123) makes some
lead-free solder from tin, copper, and silver that isn't the pewter
"lead-free" stuff you've probably tried and hate. If you can multiply,
divide and read metals commodity prices in your local newspaper, you can
see that the floor price for 93.6% tin, 4.7% silver, 1.7% copper (the
eutectic 423 degree F mix) would be significantly less than Canfield
gets for their "Silvergleem," even with a good factor for production and
distribution. The true reasons for resistance are diminishing.
Lead's not dead. We love it. As long as WE're careful we'll be fine
and somebody else will make sure everything else about its production
and waste disposal are perfectly safe. Won' they? Just like we love
our cheap clothes made with child labor, somewhere else out of our
sight. Hear no evil. See...
--
Cole Sonafrank's Elves of Ester
http://www.ptialaska.net/~sonafrnk
Platypus Art Glass
Mutual disassociation is the term I would use.
If you would like to hold a public trial, so to speak, concerning your
erroneous accusation, just tell me where and when.
However, this NG's archive will clearly demonstrate that I posted the
experience with the MSN glass community here several months ago.
Regardless of my personal unpleasant experience with the MSN community, I have
repeatedly recommended it to others as a great way to learn about glass.
If you would like to pursue this than I can submit both public and private
documentation of my experience with MSN and those here in this NG to
demonstrate the events.
MSN Community Standards will also demonstrate the violations present in the MSN
glass community during my short, fruitful, participation.
For the Public Trial, I would suggest you start an MSN community with a cyber,
Geraldo Rivera, format. According to the MSN Community Standards, this trial
type format could be fun and entertaining while not violating community
standards.
This is about as nice as I can be considering your post.
Your gutter level remark is slanderous.
I know I stated I was not going to respond to snipes, but this is ridiculous.
Terry Harper
>
>Now, to the business of glass. I have been trying to find tiny drills to
>use in my dremel to make holes in glass. I have found a few sources,
>but...the drill bits only seem to hold up for 5 or 6 holes. I am using the
>dremel drill press and drilling the holes at approx 10,000 rpm (that's what
>the bits are rated at) and I'm drilling them under water. Any suggestions?
>I am using a 1/16 diamond coated drill bit. I use them for my glass
>jewelry, and each piece requires 6 or 7 holes.
>
The drills may be rated at 10,000 rpm for metal, but you ought to try a much
lower speed for glass. Even with the water cooling you are probably getting
temperatures which affect the material bonding the diamond to the drill tip.
If you can run at something between 500 and 1,000 rpm you may find it is
better, not a lot slower, and your drill life ought to be much longer. Don't
apply too much pressure, either.
Rwboer
>use in my dremel to make holes in glass. I have found a few sources,
>but...the drill bits only seem to hold up for 5 or 6 holes. I am using the
>dremel drill press and drilling the holes at approx 10,000 rpm (that's what
>the bits are rated at) and I'm drilling them under water. Any suggestions?
>I am using a 1/16 diamond coated drill bit. I use them for my glass
>jewelry, and each piece requires 6 or 7 holes.
>
>copper and platinum, but would like to try other fired on enamals or paints
>with the rubber stamps - any suggestions? Andrea,
Hello Andrea,
I use 10 nanometer industrial diamond grit in a alchohol-water mixture with my
Dremel tool and the Dremel press. Windex works as a good substitute. I mix the
powder 1gram to 500mL of solution. You can purchase industrial grade diamond
powder from Warren Diamond Powders. I use nickel shim stock to mold diffractive
structures; "surface relief holograms" in glass. I am uncertain as to your term
and process for "stamping" structures in glass.
Regards,
Bob
Rae
Is the acrylic water based medium you mentioned the same as the water based
medium 732 in Standard Ceramic's catalog? Would this medium work with the
Satin Etch and the Matt White glass enamels also listed in Standard Ceramic
catalog? I'm looking for the paints and the medium that are used in
"Creative Glass Techniques".
I've called Standard Ceramic but they weren't able to answer my questions.
The one person who knows about glass enamels is out sick.
--
Rae ôżô
Bert Weiss <be...@customartglass.com> wrote in message
news:bert-ya02408000R...@news.landmarknet.net...
> Andrea
>
> The best source I know of is your dentist. Dentists use a bur once or
> twice and discard them. They may not last long but if you get the dentist
> to save them for you they're free. You can also use those burs to sign
> your name.
>
> Experiment with stamping. The trick is to mix the enamels to just the
> right consistency. I like acrylic water cleanup medium. It is available
> from many sources like Reusche or Drakenfeld etc. Any medium can be made
> to work with your stamps. Try "raised enamels" from Standard Ceramic
> Supply Carnegie PA.
>
> Bert
>
> In article <zacc4.353$GI4....@ndnws01.ne.mediaone.net>, "andrea scholes"
> <asch...@mediaone.net> wrote:
>
> >my apologies to the group - I can see by the comments that you are all
great
> >people, and I'm glad I spoke my piece. Thanks for your input!
> >
> >Now, to the business of glass. I have been trying to find tiny drills to
> >use in my dremel to make holes in glass. I have found a few sources,
> >but...the drill bits only seem to hold up for 5 or 6 holes. I am using
the
> >dremel drill press and drilling the holes at approx 10,000 rpm (that's
what
> >the bits are rated at) and I'm drilling them under water. Any
suggestions?
> >I am using a 1/16 diamond coated drill bit. I use them for my glass
> >jewelry, and each piece requires 6 or 7 holes.
> >
> >Also, does anyone do "stamping" on glass? I have been using fired on
gold,
> >copper and platinum, but would like to try other fired on enamals or
paints
> >with the rubber stamps - any suggestions? Andrea,
Bert Weiss
I haven't seen a Standard Ceramic catalog for a few years, but I would
assume if they are carrying a water based medium that it is the right
stuff. When you get the knowledgable person on the phone ask them about
the drying time for their medium. Some are faster than others. I prefer a
relatively slow drying medium because I paint on large sheets of glass.
Any medium slower than water and gum arabic would be fine.
You can mix a minimum of 300 grams (or a pound) of dry enamel with this recipe:
PAINT RECIPE
paste:
100 Parts powder / to 40-50 parts medium by weight
mix in a jar with a braun hand blender. Wear a respirator.
brushing paint:
100 parts paste / to 30-40 parts water by weight (optional)
The paint keeps fairly well in a sealed jar. A wide mouth quart canning
jar works.
Bert
In article <OPt9OU4V$GA.220@cpmsnbbsa04>, "Rae" <gri...@email.msn.com> wrote:
>Bert,
>
>Is the acrylic water based medium you mentioned the same as the water based
>medium 732 in Standard Ceramic's catalog? Would this medium work with the
>Satin Etch and the Matt White glass enamels also listed in Standard Ceramic
>catalog? I'm looking for the paints and the medium that are used in
>"Creative Glass Techniques".
>
>I've called Standard Ceramic but they weren't able to answer my questions.
>The one person who knows about glass enamels is out sick.
Bert
andrea scholes
By "stamping", I am referring to using rubber stamps (commonly used on paper
with inks ) for stamping images on the surface of glass. I currently use
gold, platinum and copper "paints" that are used in ceramics and fire the
images on the glass. I am curious if anyone else is using rubber stamps on
glass, and what they are using with them.
While I really appreciate your suggestion about the industrial diamond grit,
I am confused. I hope I don't sound foolish, but...are you making your own
drill bits? Would I be able to breathe life back into my dead drill bits
with the diamond grit? What would I use to adhere the grit to the drill bit
shaft? Where is Warren Diamond Powders located?
Thanks for your help! Have a good night. Andrea
firebrand
NOW SINCE I'M NEW TO STAIN GLASS TELL ME IF IM USING THE
COPPER FOIL SOIDERED METHOD IS THAT THE WRONG WAY . IF SO
WHAT ELSE DO I USE AND HOW. I WANT TO KNOW WHAT WILL LAST
THE LONGEST AND WHAT IS SAFEST FOR ME TO USE AS FAR AS
BREATHING FUMES FROM FLUX AND THE SOIDER. FIREBRAND.
* Sent from AltaVista http://www.altavista.com Where you can also find related Web Pages, Images, Audios, Videos, News, and Shopping. Smart is Beautiful
Elena Rodríguez
I would like to know what is a "bur" ; thanks in advance
Elena in Spain
Bert Weiss escribió:
Sam Gaylord
: Hello Bert and everyone
: I would like to know what is a "bur" ; thanks in advance
: Elena in Spain
It is "THE" drill bit to drill teeth. It's not a drill as we normally
think of a drill bit, but rather more like a router bit.
samg
a.k.a Sam Gaylord (sa...@cs.itc.hp.com)
Bert Weiss
Elena
A bur is a conical shaped grinding bit that fits in a dremel tool or
similar handpiece or drill. They can be carbide or diamond coated.
Dentists generally use carbide burs to grind teeth. They do not use them
very long before discarding them. These burs can be used to sign your name
on glass, or to drill a hole through the glass. Jewelers also use burs.
They come in various sizes.
Bert
Esther Heller
Elena Rodríguez wrote in message
<38787249...@clientes.euskaltel.es>...
>Hello Bert and everyone
>I would like to know what is a "bur" ; thanks in advance
>Elena in Spain
>
>
>> Andrea
>>
>> The best source I know of is your dentist. Dentists use a bur once or
>> twice and discard them. They may not last long but if you get the
dentist
>> to save them for you they're free. You can also use those burs to sign
>> your name.
>>
Try burr in your dictionary and look for the definition that is a tool,
not part of a plant. It is the working end of a very small grinder, in this
case the "drill" that the dentist uses to excavate your tooth before filling
it when you have a cavity (dental caries).
Esther
eoh at kodak
Larry D
micro bit grab bag" Item 34640-3BFA, for $9.99. This might fill your
needs since they could dirll glass.
Hope this helps.
Larry