putty versus cement
Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD)
appropriate to use putty.
Is it only a matter of preference from the artist ?
Thanks
Marc
LBMyers
Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD) <par...@hawk.igs.net> wrote in message
news:83laf9$buv$1...@news.igs.net...
I have always considered them interchangeable words as far as glass is
concerned. Perhaps glazing material should be the prefered term. I do not
believe there is a situation that calls for one preferred over the other.
victo...@my-deja.com
with putty in a leaded window.
>
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Mary Hunt
difference with putty or cement.
Cement is just that a cement.....a product from several companies but inland
is the only producer who comes to mind.
Putty is used in glazing windows, yes and requires a hardener. The hardener
is often forgotten and sometimes not mentioned in the lesson.
With out the hardener...and I forget the right one to use, the putty will
stay soft and not effective.
Use the cement and have no problems with hardening of the product.
Be sure to clean up correctly or you won't like the look of the finished
piece.
MH
Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD)
PARIS", or is it only to clean the window to remove the flax oil on the
surface.
I am a bit confused which one to adopt. I have followed a course, and the
instructor was using putty. Last saturday I attended a lead panel repair
demo, and the instruction suggested Black ciment from AMCHEM.
Both are very experience person. I think I will ask them why they use one
and not the other.
Marc
Mary Hunt
No it wasn't plaster of paris......I know it was a long time ago and since I
don't use putty, I just plainly can't remember.
There are several companies that produce the cement though.
I prefer and teach that usage. Mostly because I am sure it will harden.
I use Inland because of the availability and I am a supporter of their
products.
Inland stands behind there equipment too.
Even the DB 100 saw.
I don't personally like this glass saw but, the company does stand behind
the problems the product has, so I have to give it to them for that.
Sorry I can't remember the correct hardener, but I think it did involve 5
drops. Some of the other old glazier's should recall........hmmm.
MH
db
I've tried canned linseed oil putty with added paint hardener in it, I've
pushed warmed-up glazing compound into lead cames (great if you have the
time and it doesn't have to withstand hurricanes for a few months while it
cures), and always came back to the traditional cement recipe's that were
mostly whiting, portland cement and various goopy stuff.
I did write to the DAP company and 3M about what they could do. I just
couldn't believe that in this day and age there isn't some acrylic
concoction that would be superior to the old recipes. The techie at DAP said
he understood the requirements, and was even familiar with the recipes we
use, but that they really didn't have an exact match in product. He even
suggested writing 3M. So I did. I corresponded with a techie at 3M and he
and I finally agreed that they made some stuff that sounded promising. Its
called Weatherban Acrylic Sealant 606-NF . He sent me a sample about three
months ago, but I haven't been working with lead came, and haven't gotten
around to testing it. When I get done with these copper foil things I'm
doing, I'm going to make a couple little checkerboard patterns with lead
came and cheap glass and seal one with Weatherban and one with glaziers
cement. I'll test the results for strength and flex and let y'all know what
I find. I saved my correspondence with DAP and 3M. If anyone wants to be
copied, lemme know.
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Don Burt - Design/Fabrication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Frogacuda Productions - Cool Glass Stuff Division
Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD) wrote in message <83laf9$buv$1...@news.igs.net>...
The Anthonys
At the studio where I learned, they use their own cement mixture for
large jobs, but had me use putty for my one window. Since they had the
putty in gallons, I guess they also use it for their own smaller jobs.
The reason I was given was: it's too much trouble and mess to mix the
cement for a small job. I did not get a sense that one was a preferred
performer. BTW, when I say cement, I mean a glazing mixture, not the
stuff in sidewalks! as another poster has mentioned. Also, the putty
they used was DAP grey, right out of the can, no hardener added. I use
DAP with lamp black added since I can't find small cans of grey, and it
gets hard without the addition of any other agents. In fact, I have at
least two half cans that are hard as rocks.
--SB
LBMyers
Mary Hunt <mshe...@midstatesd.net> wrote in message
news:POB74.15961$Ke.9...@tw11.nn.bcandid.com...
When I use putty, I use plaster of paris to both clean the glass and to
absorb the moisture (e.g., linseed oil) that I thin the putty with. I
hesitate to call it a hardener, because I would prefer that the putty under
the came remains somewhat pliable.
LBMyers
The can of DAP 33 says it is not suitable for stained/leaded glass projects.
Does anybody know why? Is it just some sort of liability avaiding
disclaimer. I have never had any problems with it.
db <bur...@attglobal.net> wrote in message
news:385f0...@news1.prserv.net...
> Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD) wrote in message <83laf9$buv$1...@news.igs.net>...
lsp...@my-deja.com
bought a can of putty at an SG store along with all the other supplies
that went into my attic. Two months ago, I opened it to do my first lead
came project. I had to "work" it until it was soft, but I was able to
push it under my cames. Only later did I learn that everyone else in my
SG class was doing that cement goop stuff. I say skip it! I'd rather
putty any day! And I'm very interested in this discussion so I can
know where to buy a fresh can of putty. :-)
In article <83laf9$buv$1...@news.igs.net>,
"Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD)" <paradis...@hawk.igs.net> wrote:
> In a lead came panel, when is it appropriate to use cement and when is
it
> appropriate to use putty.
>
> Is it only a matter of preference from the artist ?
>
> Thanks
>
> Marc
>
>
Mary Hunt
recommended to the putty, Plaster of paris is a substance that is used but
not what I did. It also, did not get hard like concrete......if the man
wasn't dead I would ask him.
The putty if not done right will cause the project to come apart....is the
point.
MH
Andrew T
1012 is the putty that was designed for stained glass. It is only
available through stained glass suppliers. Although on the can of DAP
1012 it says not for stained glass, that is incorrect. DAP was sold a
few years ago to another corporate giant and the labeling on the can was
never changed.
As an added thought...many traditionalist believe that plaster of paris
and portland cement are a no no in a putty/cement recipe. Me belief is
that none of us will be around long enough to find out if today's
putties or cements are a problem. I've resored windows that are 100
years old and the cement was as hard as a rock...also repaired windows
that are 40, 30, 20 and even a couple years old. These also had
cement/putty that was as hard as a rock even though some were explained
to have had putty/cement that did not contain plaster of paris or
portland cement. Go figure.
Bert Weiss
I was taught to use straight linseed oil putty. You can buy it in a paint
store or make your own. The ingredients are boiled linseed oil and
whiting. You don't need to mix in lampblack. Knead the linseed oil and
whiting together until it is fairly stiff and thumb it under the leads.
Carefully press down the leads and then pounce on some whiting and brush to
burnish and clean up. When you brush the panel with a stiff natural bristle
scrub brush the lead that comes off from the brushing will darken the
exposed putty. This is a most satisfying process, because it looks so good
when it is completed.
I don't believe modern nonhardening putty is strong enough to help keep a
panel together.
I never used the inland putty but I think it is properly designed. I know
there are recipes that use plaster or portland cement and are brushed in to
the leads. I always found that the simple linseed oil putty works well.
Bert
Bert Weiss Art Glass
Custom Productions
Furniture
Sculpture
Lighting
Tableware
Architectural Commissions
Marc (alias - NONAMEDAD)
with water.
The other one in a solvent, but I do not remember if it is nafta or what.
would you know.
They are only to keep the brush packed with material without becomming hard.
Marc
Susan Hohman
just done a mirror with DAP 33 and loathed the waste and frustration of
forcing glazing compound into small, tight spaces. My technique may be
off, so I'd love to hear you views.
TIA,
Sue
<lsp...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:83ojg1$6d3$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Ernie6642
>just done a mirror with DAP 33 and loathed the waste and frustration of
>forcing glazing compound into small, tight spaces. My technique may be
>off, so I'd love to hear you views.
I have been following this thread with some interest as most of the commissions
I do are with came.
Dap 33 & some other brands of putty are not designed to use on Stained Glass
because they are formulated to remain flexiable, they do not harden completely
& take longer to firm up.
Dap 1012 & other brands of putty meant to be used for Stained Glass do harden
completely & take less time to firm up. I was taught the formular for mixing
putty to use on stained glass many years ago, it contains whiting, plaster of
paris, linseed oil & the one thing nobody has mentioned yet, turpentine. While
I don't often make my own putty because of time & labor involved I do thin all
the putty I buy. This is done with small amounts of turpentine, I've yet to
find a brand that has the right consistency I like right out of the can. As for
Inlands cement, if you've ever had to do a repair on a window that's been
assembled with this product several years ago you'll know why I don't like it.
Susan next time use a putty meant to be used on stained glass & try thinning it
with a little turpentine, while you may object to the smell you will find it
easier.
Bert Weiss
Just Curious. Do you thumb in your putty or brush it in?
Bert
In article <19991222100115...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
erni...@aol.com (Ernie6642) wrote:
Bert
Ernie6642
>
>Bert
If the piece I'm working on contains a lot of curved, smaller pieces of glass I
brush the putty into the came. But when the piece has mostly straight came
lines I use a plastic putty knife to force the putty into the channels of the
came. I find this works faster & is a cleaner method. As with most techniques
used in stained glass, if you ask 6 different craftsman the same question
you'll get 3 different answers.
barbara j cashman
acetone have trouble breaking it down. My husband still does SG and a
LOT of repairs. Boy, have I heard him snarl.
Susan Hohman
shouldn't be a problem. What concerns me more is that the biggest SG
retailer in town stocks the DAP 33 and taught us to use it to cement our
panels. That's giving me the yips. Glad I found this ng when I did! The
DAP 33 won't be wasted, most of the windows in my house need reglazed
anyway.
Sue
Ernie6642 <erni...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:19991222100115...@ng-bk1.aol.com...
Andrew T
cement/putty was used on any given panel when doing repairs...unless of
course, you know first or second hand. Any putty/cement will cure
somewhat differently over time along with different climates. But in the
end...all putty/cements over the years will dry hard. I firmly believe
that the amount of research along with the few written articles on
cements are just that...few and with not enough research to accurately
voice an educated decision. But then when I'm long gone...will I really
care.
Andrew T
db
Below are the 'requirements' I gave to DAP and 3M when I inquired about
this. I wasn't very scientific in my description of requirements. I don't
really know exactly how 'solid' or 'hard' upon drying I would want my ideal
cement to be. My initial thought is that I shouldn't rely so much on
glaziers cement to add anti-sagging-strength (there's a scientific term if I
ever heard one) , but that it should weatherseal perfectly, and not be so
hard that it won't allow the glass to expand and contract. DAP said they
didn't have any match. 3M's response is attached:
Dear 3M,
I would like to find a solution to an adhesive
problem. I am an individual artist working in stained
glass. Traditional stained glass windows are made with
lead-stripping shaped as an I-beam, with the glass fit
under the flanges or the strip. When a window is
constructed, it is sealed with a ‘glaziers cement’
which is brushed into the gaps between the flanges and
the glass. The glaziers cement used by nearly all
stained glass artists is an arcane concoction of
linseed oil, portland cement, whiting, and turpentine,
and colorant. It weatherproofs the window, and
importantly, adds strength to the window. It works,
and has worked adequately for several hundred years.
But certainly there must be something better. The
requirements for glaziers cement are as follows:
1. Will be a thick liquid, rather than a putty, to
make it easier to brush into and under flanges and
creavices.
2. Will harden partially, rather quickly. Ideally in a
few hours to a point where the excess could be cleaned
away and finish cleaning commence.
3. Should eventually harden to firm flexible plastic
state.
4. Should last, oh say, a thousand years.
5. Should be dark grey, or able to be colored.
6. Should be able to be cleaned-off the workpiece with
a cloth, preferably without a special solvent
So my questions are:
1. Is Weatherban Acrylic Sealant 606-NF suitable for
the above application?
2. Can 606-NF be colored to grey by the user?
3. How or with what chemical is 606-NF cleaned-up?
4. Who distributes 606-NF in SE Ohio?
5. If 606-NF is not the answer, is there a better one?
Thank you, Don, for inquiring about 3M products.
Our Weatherban Acrylic Sealant 606-NF is the only sealant in our line that
"may"
be suitable. I'll try to respond the best I can to your list of questions:
1. It's consistency is a paste, or caulk, consistency so that it will
not sag from vertical seams or gaps. You could probably add water
to it, but that will probably cause the sealant to have some
shrinkage
after drying.
2. Typically, this sealant will be tack free in about 20 to 40 minutes.
Drying time will vary with atmospheric conditions and
joint design.
3. Dries to a rubber-like seal.
4. Years...yes! Centuries....who knows?
5. It is only available in white, however, you could mix in carbon
black or a non-oil based dye.
6. It can be cleaned off with water when in the wet and tacky state.
The best way to determine if our sealant will work for your specific
application
is to test it. Please provide me with your mailing and UPS shipping address
and
I will send you a sample at no charge.
If you have further questions or need more information,
I can be reached directly at 1-800-285-3215, ext. 27.
Regards,
Michael M. Murray
Customer Response Center
3M Tapes and Adhesives
1-800-362-3550
=====
__________________________________________________
Do You Yahoo!?
Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com
--
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Don Burt - Design/Fabrication
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Frogacuda Productions - Cool Glass Stuff Division
Andrew T wrote in message
<15369-38...@storefull-118.iap.bryant.webtv.net>...
victo...@my-deja.com
NEOGL...@webtv.net (Andrew T) wrote:
> It's almost impossible to tell exactly what brand or type of
> cement/putty was used on any given panel when doing repairs...unless
of
> course, you know first or second hand. Any putty/cement will cure
> somewhat differently over time along with different climates. But in
the
> end...all putty/cements over the years will dry hard. I firmly believe
> that the amount of research along with the few written articles on
> cements are just that...few and with not enough research to accurately
> voice an educated decision. But then when I'm long gone...will I
really
> care.
>
>
London on putty. The person is David Mason.
lsp...@my-deja.com
for
> mixing
> > putty to use on stained glass many years ago, it contains whiting,
plaster
> of
> > paris, linseed oil & the one thing nobody has mentioned yet,
turpentine.
>
hmm, that confuses me, cause that's a recipe for CEMENT, not putty, but
mind you, i'm a newcomer to the art, so i'm sure the problem is in my
understanding, not your terms...to answer susan's question:
i have only used putty. when i saw the nasty mess everyone else in class
was undergoing--first the goop stuff, then the cloud of chalk--i was
glad i had stumbled upon putty instead. hey, one container, one
purchase, no mixing. this recipe business is for the birds. (or so it
seems to this newcomer...)
i use my thumb to push the putty under the cames (and i have more
confidence the product is in there--what keeps the cement from draining
out? the whiting?) putting on some good music or a book on tape while i
push away at my putty is rather relaxing, not necessarily monotonous....
lsparks
Jeffrey Castaline
you need to kill
you if you inhale it because you are not wearing an industrial type
respirator.
It's much safer, easier and environmental friendly to use ordinary sawdust.
Does a better job and doesn't leave that white ring around each piece of
glass.
Makes for a much better uniform effect, especially when you use Amchem
Stained Glass Putty
Jeffrey Castaline
Owner/Partner
AANRAKU STAINED GLASS
2323 S. El Camino Real
San Mateo, CA 94403
http://www.estainedglass.net
(650) 372-0527
"LBMyers" <LBM...@prodigy.net> wrote in message
news:83nts3$2eks$1...@newssvr03-int.news.prodigy.com...
Mike Firth
>Nothing personal, but plaster of paris (Calcium Carbonate) is just the thing
>you need to kill
>you if you inhale it because you are not wearing an industrial type
>respirator.
>It's much safer, easier and environmental friendly to use ordinary sawdust.
Wow, a warning from someone who does know what they are talking about.
First, the OSHA page for Plaster of Paris
[http://www.osha-slc.gov/ChemSamp_data/CH_263495.html] describes it as a
Nuisance Particulate. This is the lowest level of respiratory concern and is
almost moot since the stuff is in paste form, not dust, when used.
Second, Plaster of Paris is Calcium Sulphate (hydrated). Calcium Carbonate
is Limestone or Whiting, rather different and what is usually used.
Third, as a continuing reader of woodworking magazines, I am well aware that
sawdust, depending on the wood and the person, can produce acute allergic
reactions in many people.
Beside, since I have never tried it, I wonder what you think sawdust does in
sealing the stained glass, cleaning maybe, sealing?
Mike Firth, Dallas TX
Hot Glass Bits furnace glass blowing information
http://ourworld.compuserve.com/homepages/MikeFirth/
Wayne Lumpkin
wonder why it states on the can that it is not for use on
stained glass.
Andrew T
that they never changed the wording on the can. Of course, you could
just call them and ask.
Gerry Eversole
wrote:
>I have used Dap 1012 as a putty base for over 20 years and
>wonder why it states on the can that it is not for use on
>stained glass.
It contains soya bean oil, not linseed oil. Depending on location
and conditions, it will last about 20 years. Linseed oil should
polymerize over 75 to 100 years before it needs replacing.
Dap began putting that warning on the label when they realized the
potential liability possible when a 3 x 20 foot window begins to fold
up and collapse on the congregation.
G.
Toronto, Ontario, Canada
(remove buffer for reply)
Wayne Lumpkin
window together.
W.
Bert Weiss
joints are broken at the edge of the solder joint, but remain together
thanks to hard putty. I wouldn't recommend 20 year putty when the average
life of leaded glass is 90 years in the industrial era.
Bert
LBMyers
Wayne Lumpkin <wl...@hiwaay.net> wrote in message
news:386953FC...@hiwaay.net...
> Surely Dap doesn't think their putty is what is holding the
> window together.
> W.
It does't matter what DAP thinks is holding the window together, what
matters is what the jury thinks and who has the deepest pockets. The
disclaimer is apparently so DAP could say "We told them not to use this
product!"