Does the color dried malt extract affect flavor?
Richard Plourde
A guy at a homebrew shop in Mass told me four things that I had a hard
time believing:
1- The color of dried malt extract affects the color of your beer only
and does NOT affect the flavor at all.
2- Dried malt extract can be used pound for pound instead of malt
extract without ANY difference in the end result. (I thought I had heard
about there having more unfermentable sugars in the dried form)
3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
at all.
4- Cultured yeast can only be used three times after which you should
buy a fresh batch.
Your comments on these statements are more than welcomed. Seems some of
them are down right false... but then I'm no expert.
Richard Plourde
plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca
Tracy Aquilla
plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca (Richard Plourde) wrote:
> Good morning to all!
>
> A guy at a homebrew shop in Mass told me four things that I had a hard
>time believing:
>
> 1- The color of dried malt extract affects the color of your beer only
>and does NOT affect the flavor at all.
Generally, this is not true. The extracts with darker colors have been
caramelized to some degree, and often have more unfermentable material,
although not always.
> 2- Dried malt extract can be used pound for pound instead of malt
>extract without ANY difference in the end result. (I thought I had heard
>about there having more unfermentable sugars in the dried form)
Wrong again; liquid extracts contain about 20% water. The general belief is
that dry extracts are better, since liquid extract syrups are thought to
have more unfermentables. I haven't seen any reasonable explainations for this.
> 3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
>at all.
NOT! I never put seaweed in my beer. Irish moss is often used to hasten
clearing, but probably doesn't affect the flavor negatively (never tried it).
> 4- Cultured yeast can only be used three times after which you should
>buy a fresh batch.
Wrong again. You can use it many times, as long as you don't contaminate it
or select for any mutants which might be undesirable. Some strains are more
prone to mutation than others.
>Your comments on these statements are more than welcomed. Seems some of
>them are down right false... but then I'm no expert.
>
>Richard Plourde
>plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca
I wouldn't believe anything else that guy says! I'd also get a book or two
and do some reading, and take my business elsewhere if possible. Good luck.
Tracy
Marc de Jonge
|> Good morning to all!
|>
|> A guy at a homebrew shop in Mass told me four things that I had a hard
|> time believing:
|>
|> 1- The color of dried malt extract affects the color of your beer only
|> and does NOT affect the flavor at all.
Depends on the manufacturer: a good dark malt extract is made from dark malt,
this has a very big effect on the taste. If you buy real crappy stuff I
wouldn't be surprised if the extract was coloured by adding 'brewers caramel',
which is essentially brown food colouring.
|>
|> 2- Dried malt extract can be used pound for pound instead of malt
|> extract without ANY difference in the end result. (I thought I had heard
|> about there having more unfermentable sugars in the dried form)
No, liquid extracts contain 20% water, so pound for pound does make a
difference.
|>
|> 3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
|> at all.
Irish moss can help and hardly ever harms.
However, the only reason to use it is to be able to serve a clear well
hopped beer at a lower temperature than the secondary fermentation.
It is therefore useless for correctly brewed Belgian and German styles, all
real lagers, and all British styles that are served at the right temperature.
|>
|> 4- Cultured yeast can only be used three times after which you should
|> buy a fresh batch.
Depends entirely on the way you culture: repitching of the slurry has the
risk that you slowly build up contaminants. If you pure-culture every
time you can easily use dozens of generations.
-------------
Marc de Jonge (dej...@geof.ruu.nl)
jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch
>In article <plourick-240...@plourick.nbnet.nb.ca>, plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca (Richard Plourde) writes:
>If you buy real crappy stuff I
>wouldn't be surprised if the extract was coloured by adding 'brewers caramel',
>which is essentially brown food colouring.
not an "artifical additive" like red dye #2. Of course, that says little
about its desirability as compared to a properly made extract using
dark malts.
>No, liquid extracts contain 20% water, so pound for pound does make a
>difference.
DME also can result in differences in the appearance of the finished beer
in my experience, as well as sometimes surprising effects during boiling :-)
I've always preferred the beers I've made from either grain, mostly grain,
and/or liquid extract to any of my attempts with DME. Your mileage may, of
course, vary, but I don't use DME any more. Perhaps I just don't get
good quality DME around here, I dunno.
>|> 3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
>|> at all.
>Irish moss can help and hardly ever harms.
When does it harm, unless boiled for the whole hour?
>However, the only reason to use it is to be able to serve a clear well
>hopped beer at a lower temperature than the secondary fermentation.
This is demonstrably false, just use some, get a good cold break,
and see what it pulls out of your wort.
>It is therefore useless for correctly brewed Belgian and German styles, all
>real lagers, and all British styles that are served at the right temperature.
This strikes me as far too sweeping. Irish moss will help quite nicely
to get out remaining particulates as well as proteins in the wort,
especially if you chill the wort rapidly for a good, not-in-the-fermenter
(i.e. not a counterflow chiller) cold break. Furthermore, Irish Moss
can provide some trace elements for the yeast to work with during aerobic
phase when you have a very light wort. In short, it can help to clear
anything, including a stout served at proper cellar temperature,
and therefore discarding its use completely for "... properly served..."
is going quite a bit too far, as it can and has been shown to have
positive effects both for clearing and yeast nutruition.
>Depends entirely on the way you culture: repitching of the slurry has the
>risk that you slowly build up contaminants. If you pure-culture every
>time you can easily use dozens of generations.
Yeah. Three times sounds like a good excuse to sell more yeast to you,
if you do a good job of pre-culturing. Me? I'm lazy, I buy yeast every time.
Yeast is cheap.
I don't brew often enough to culture yeast as effectively as I would prefer.
While I enjoy homebrewing, I find that it, like many other hobbies, has
a substantial "PC" contingent that is concerned with enforcing its
beliefs on the hobby. Perhaps the store is guilty of this, I don't know,
perhaps the "Irish Moss is useless... properly..." statement is this,
again I don't know, but both the store and the advice quoted here are
worth what we all paid for them. This of course, applies to my
comments as well, but I won't worry, I'll just have a homebrew
and forget about all this PC nonsense.
Oh, and any comments on how to clean mini-kegs? I've rinsed mine and
dried it after use, and I figure to use some chlorox on it before I
fill it again, since it's aluminium I don't want to use BBrite.
What do y'all do?
--
Copyright alice!jj 1995, all rights reserved, except transmission by USENET and like facilities granted. Said permission is granted only for complete copies that include this notice. Use on pay-for-read services or non-electronic media specifically disallowed. -------
And God in his heaven has decided to keep mum, cause He's just another traveller on the road to kingdom come.
-----
Dr. Moze
j...@research.att.com (jj, curmudgeon and all-around grouch) writes:
> Oh, and any comments on how to clean mini-kegs? I've rinsed mine and
> dried it after use, and I figure to use some chlorox on it before I
> fill it again, since it's aluminium I don't want to use BBrite.
> What do y'all do?
I think they are stainless steel, not aluminum! Also, I was told at the
local homebrew shop *not* to use bleach on them, because they are
plastic-lined and the bleach will eat this away. The guy suggested
B-brite instead.
Can anyone clarify this issue?
-- Dr. Moze <Steve Marsh> ma...@anvil.nrl.navy.mil
Tracy Aquilla
curmudgeon and all-around grouch) wrote:
>In article <1995Jan26.1...@cc.ruu.nl> dej...@geof.ruu.nl writes:
>>In article <plourick-240...@plourick.nbnet.nb.ca>,
plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca (Richard Plourde) writes:
>>wouldn't be surprised if the extract was coloured by adding 'brewers caramel',
>>which is essentially brown food colouring.
>Um, caramel is not colouring, it is in fact carmelized sugar, so it's
>not an "artifical additive" like red dye #2. Of course, that says little
>about its desirability as compared to a properly made extract using
>dark malts.
Caramel and caramel coloring are not the same thing. One is basically sugar,
the other is a coloring agent (i.e. dye).
>>|> 3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
>>|> at all.
>
>>Irish moss can help and hardly ever harms.
>When does it harm, unless boiled for the whole hour?
I think you may have just answered your own question.
>>However, the only reason to use it is to be able to serve a clear well
>>hopped beer at a lower temperature than the secondary fermentation.
>This is demonstrably false, just use some, get a good cold break,
>and see what it pulls out of your wort.
That's one opinion (or two?). I don't think Irish Moss is necessary to make
beer. I agree, it will certainly help clear the beer faster, but I also
agree the only significant benefit is that it can make for a clear brew in
short time. I never use it, and most of my brews are brilliant, but I tend
to ferment, condition, and age longer than average.
>>It is therefore useless for correctly brewed Belgian and German styles, all
>>real lagers, and all British styles that are served at the right temperature.
>
>This strikes me as far too sweeping. Irish moss will help quite nicely
>to get out remaining particulates as well as proteins in the wort,
>especially if you chill the wort rapidly for a good, not-in-the-fermenter
>(i.e. not a counterflow chiller) cold break. Furthermore, Irish Moss
>can provide some trace elements for the yeast to work with during aerobic
>phase when you have a very light wort. In short, it can help to clear
Wait a minute here! If it precipitates and is left behind, how does it help
the yeast? Irish Moss probably adds less nutrients than the stuff you're
trying to remove with it.
>anything, including a stout served at proper cellar temperature,
>and therefore discarding its use completely for "... properly served..."
>is going quite a bit too far, as it can and has been shown to have
>positive effects both for clearing and yeast nutruition.
I tend to agree, maybe a bit too far (those darned purists :-)), but I'd
like to hear more details about the nutritional advantages of using Irish Moss.
>While I enjoy homebrewing, I find that it, like many other hobbies, has
>a substantial "PC" contingent that is concerned with enforcing its
>beliefs on the hobby. Perhaps the store is guilty of this, I don't know,
>perhaps the "Irish Moss is useless... properly..." statement is this,
>again I don't know, but both the store and the advice quoted here are
>worth what we all paid for them. This of course, applies to my
>comments as well, but I won't worry, I'll just have a homebrew
>and forget about all this PC nonsense.
All too true. I agree, relax.....
>Oh, and any comments on how to clean mini-kegs? I've rinsed mine and
>dried it after use, and I figure to use some chlorox on it before I
>fill it again, since it's aluminium I don't want to use BBrite.
>What do y'all do?
Iodophor.
Tracy
Marc de Jonge
: In article <1995Jan26.1...@cc.ruu.nl> dej...@geof.ruu.nl writes:
: >In article <plourick-240...@plourick.nbnet.nb.ca>, plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca (Richard Plourde) writes:
: >If you buy real crappy stuff I
: >wouldn't be surprised if the extract was coloured by adding 'brewers caramel',
: >which is essentially brown food colouring.
: Um, caramel is not colouring, it is in fact carmelized sugar, so it's
: not an "artifical additive" like red dye #2. Of course, that says little
: about its desirability as compared to a properly made extract using
: dark malts.
melanoidins. It adds nothing but colour, so I would call it food colouring.
: >However, the only reason to use it is to be able to serve a clear well
: >hopped beer at a lower temperature than the secondary fermentation.
: This is demonstrably false, just use some, get a good cold break,
: and see what it pulls out of your wort.
....., just leave it out, get a good cold break,
and see that the amount of break material is hardly smaller.
: >It is therefore useless for correctly brewed Belgian and German styles, all
: >real lagers, and all British styles that are served at the right temperature.
: This strikes me as far too sweeping.
It was intendend as a sweeping statement, but why 'far too'?
: Irish moss will help quite nicely
: to get out remaining particulates as well as proteins in the wort,
: especially if you chill the wort rapidly for a good, not-in-the-fermenter
: (i.e. not a counterflow chiller) cold break.
The only other particulate I find are the hops, they will in fact be filtered
out more easily without I.M.
: Furthermore, Irish Moss
: can provide some trace elements for the yeast to work with during aerobic
: phase when you have a very light wort.
I don't think a fraction of an ounce of Irish moss will matter very much
if you've just extracted 9 pounds of grain.
: In short, it can help to clear
: anything, including a stout served at proper cellar temperature,
: and therefore discarding its use completely for "... properly served..."
: is going quite a bit too far, as it can and has been shown to have
: positive effects both for clearing and yeast nutruition.
It can help to clear beer if you have a protein haze, it doesn't do
much for starch, yeast and other hazes. That was my point: why not
try to prevent protein haze by perfecting the technique instead of
adding extra stuff to the beer.
: While I enjoy homebrewing, I find that it, like many other hobbies, has
: a substantial "PC" contingent that is concerned with enforcing its
: beliefs on the hobby.
: Perhaps the store is guilty of this, I don't know,
: perhaps the "Irish Moss is useless... properly..." statement is this,
: again I don't know, but both the store and the advice quoted here are
: worth what we all paid for them.
Right, it's only my opinion. I am just a bit suspicous of a homebrew
supply store that sells people corrective measures for their beer
before they've even opened the wrapping of the ingredients.
: This of course, applies to my
: comments as well, but I won't worry, I'll just have a homebrew
: and forget about all this PC nonsense.
I like this, I try to save some guy from what I think is wasting money
and I'm already Politically Correct. Now if I manage to keep my
bigoted anti Irish Moss politics out of my postings does it mean I
will be only Correct? ;)
I think I'll have a homebrew as well...
Robert L. Lamothe
> Good morning to all!
>
> A guy at a homebrew shop in Mass told me four things that I had a hard
>time believing:
>
> 1- The color of dried malt extract affects the color of your beer only
>and does NOT affect the flavor at all.
Depends, if the color is due to carmalization it will have an effect,
though I believe most DME's are colored with colored malt during the sparge.
>
> 2- Dried malt extract can be used pound for pound instead of malt
>extract without ANY difference in the end result. (I thought I had heard
>about there having more unfermentable sugars in the dried form)
>
Nope on the unfermentables, but he is wrong on this count. Malt
syrup contains about 80% of the sugar that DME does, this is because the
syrup has more water and the water adds weight and volume.
> 3- Iris moss should be used in EVERY recipe and does NOT affect flavor
>at all.
>
Almost, I agree that irish moss should be used in every batch. But
it can affect flavor, though not how you think, since it helps remove trub
it will make the flavor cleaner. Irish moss is a plus not a minus.
> 4- Cultured yeast can only be used three times after which you should
>buy a fresh batch.
>
Depends on who you talk to. Most authorities agree that yeast should
not be allowed to go more than 4 generations from the original. Though
some people will claim you can get more milage than this. Most micro's
won't go more than 4. Understand though that this is 4 generations, not
4 batches, if you make several starters from the origial, lets say 6, then
you can make 6 batches of 2nd generation, yeast collected from these
ferments would be 3rd generation.
>Your comments on these statements are more than welcomed. Seems some of
>them are down right false... but then I'm no expert.
>
>Richard Plourde
>plou...@mailserv.nbnet.nb.ca
--
* Robert L. Lamothe University of New Hampshire *
* r...@unh.edu Interoperablity lab room 330 *
* *
* Kicking Back at the Stagger Inn. *