Belgian Tripel: How long in primary and secondary?
Tennessee Tom
primary with blowoff tube (Its scent has hints of banana and maybe vanilla).
OG= 1.092
Yeast= WLP500 Trappist Ale w/ 4 pt starter. Had visible activity in ~6 hrs.
I plan to move it to a glass secondary, but I'm not sure when. Usually,
I'd give my beers a week in primary, but this is a much higher OG. How
long should I go in primary and secondary? I do plan to make gravity
measurements in about 2 weeks, but I don't want to disturb it until
then. How long can it go in secondary before I risk having problems with
bottle conditioning?
Regards, Tom
Todd
slows down. This is usually about 5 days for my ales and 10 days for
lagers. Considering the OG of 1.092, you should take your time with the
tripel. It will take a while for the alcohol to mellow into the yeast.
I'd give it 10 days in primary and a month in secondary. I actually
have a tripel that I made with WLP500, and it's quite good, but it's
only 3 months old and it's still a little too sweet.
John M
his gravity drop to the point where no fermentation will occur in his
bottles for carbonation. I had the same problem with a cider I made
with an english ale yeast. By the time I removed it from the secondary
for bottling, the F.G was 1.001 and my ABV was ~9%. As a result, I
ended up with a still cider. The problem is you don't want to keep
checking the gravity too often, as it exposes the beer to possible
contamination. Todd's advice seems sound for the primary, and I think
it's pretty safe to assume that 2 weeks of secondary will be fine. I
would take a reading around then though.
John
Tennessee Tom
>I think Tom is less concerned with taste and more concerned with having
>his gravity drop to the point where no fermentation will occur in his
>bottles for carbonation.
>
>
It sounds like you're referring to the method of bottling at some
predetermined SG near the end of fermentation, and assuming it will
continue to a certain target FG for proper carbonation. I read this is
considered an outdated (and dangerous) method.
After racking to a glass secondary, I was planning on making several
measurements to make sure the gravity has tapered-off. I will use
dextrose for priming. What I was wondering is if there is a certain
point after which the yeast will start to die off or flocculate to a
point where the suspended population is too low to process the dextrose.
My hunch is that it could go for maybe a month with no trouble, since I
plan to age it for months and months. I have plenty of time and patience
for this batch, and will do whatever is considered ideal.
Regards, Tom
Tennessee Tom
><snip>
>I'd give it 10 days in primary and a month in secondary. I actually
>have a tripel that I made with WLP500, and it's quite good, but it's
>only 3 months old and it's still a little too sweet.
>
>
>
Was it your WLP500 tripel that was given a month in the secondary? What
temperature? How long did it take to carbonate? I don't mind waiting,
but I need to know that something will happen eventually. From what
I've read here, I think a month (~68F) should be no problem. Just don't
want any mistakes after what I've spent on the time and ingredient$.
Joel
>After racking to a glass secondary, I was planning on making several
>measurements to make sure the gravity has tapered-off. I will use
>dextrose for priming. What I was wondering is if there is a certain
>point after which the yeast will start to die off or flocculate to a
>point where the suspended population is too low to process the dextrose.
>My hunch is that it could go for maybe a month with no trouble, since I
>plan to age it for months and months. I have plenty of time and patience
>for this batch, and will do whatever is considered ideal.
There is no single ideal. Your experience will depend
on grist bill, yeast choice, temperature, yeast cell count
and health, etc.
As for not having enough yeast to carbonate, I've brewed
literally hundreds of batches of beer over the past ~20 years;
roughly a third of them had an OG between 1.070 and 1.090.
Only once did I have a problem with carbonation after priming,
and that was with a barleywine over 1.105 OG.
Specifically, none of my tripels have ever had a problem.
I would guess I leave them for a couple weeks in the primary
fermenter and another 2-3 weeks in the secondary before
priming and bottling. Basically, I wait until fermentation
has slowed to the point the krausen has fallen, then rack.
When fermentation there has stopped, as evidenced by no
further bubbles on top and a clearing of the fresh beer,
I prime and bottle.
I only measure gravity at a point just before I go into
bottles. With experience, it's not hard to figure out when
(and if) to rack, and when fermentation is done.
--
Joel Plutchak "Prescriptive lexicographers enjoy being grumpy.
plutchak@{VERYWARM}mail.com They spend a lot of time denouncing words and
explaining what the rules used to be."
- Richard Bready, Encarta
John M
myself correctly. Flocculation is induced as the sugar concentration
decreases and the alcohol content increases. Therefore, as the gravity
drops, flocculation increases. In my opinion, the lower the gravity
(or more correclty the larger the delta between the O.G and F.G.), the
earlier you should bottle the beer otherwise not enough yeast may be in
suspension for bottle conditioning and mellowing of diacetyls. A
yeast's tendancy to flocculate is highly dependent on the strain, so
the only advice that can be given is a rule of thumb.
John
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> I think Tom is less concerned with taste and more concerned with having
> his gravity drop to the point where no fermentation will occur in his
> bottles for carbonation.
You seem to be confused. That is not how you get carbonation in the bottles.
The gravity is supposed to drop all the way in the fermenter. When it is
done dropping, and fermentation is complete, then you bottle the beer and
add a measured amount of extra sugar to create the carbonation.
Bottling the beer before the fermentation is complete is a great way to
end up with exploding bottles.
John.
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> John M wrote:
>
>>I think Tom is less concerned with taste and more concerned with having
>>his gravity drop to the point where no fermentation will occur in his
>>bottles for carbonation.
>>
>>
> It sounds like you're referring to the method of bottling at some
> predetermined SG near the end of fermentation, and assuming it will
> continue to a certain target FG for proper carbonation. I read this is
> considered an outdated (and dangerous) method.
Correct. Do not do this.
> After racking to a glass secondary, I was planning on making several
> measurements to make sure the gravity has tapered-off. I will use
> dextrose for priming. What I was wondering is if there is a certain
> point after which the yeast will start to die off or flocculate to a
> point where the suspended population is too low to process the dextrose.
> My hunch is that it could go for maybe a month with no trouble, since I
> plan to age it for months and months. I have plenty of time and patience
> for this batch, and will do whatever is considered ideal.
Yes, you probably have months before you need to worry about anything. Let
the beer take it's time with the fermentation, especially for a beer this
big. If you are concerned about healthy yeast when you bottle, you can
always add another packet of dry yeast to the secondary a couple of days
before you plan to bottle. That way you'll know you have fresh live yeast
in the beer.
John.
Tennessee Tom
>There is no single ideal. Your experience will depend
>on grist bill, yeast choice, temperature, yeast cell count
>and health, etc.
>
>
I'm using WLP500. In another post, you said most of your batches use
Wyeast 3787.
FWIW, this page says they're the same:
http://kotmf.com/articles/yeastcomp.php#WLP_vs_Wyeast
> As for not having enough yeast to carbonate, I've brewed
>literally hundreds of batches of beer over the past ~20 years;
>roughly a third of them had an OG between 1.070 and 1.090.
>Only once did I have a problem with carbonation after priming,
>and that was with a barleywine over 1.105 OG.
><snip>
>
This is excellent info. I have a spare pack of Nottingham, but I don't
think I will need that. I'm not going to add extra yeast. I believe my 4
pt WLP500 starter was sufficient (thanks Denny).
> I only measure gravity at a point just before I go into
>bottles. With experience, it's not hard to figure out when
>(and if) to rack, and when fermentation is done.
>
>
I could do that for my main recipe that I've brewed several times (very
predictable) but this is new territory for me. For my reference, can you
tell me what your Wyeast 3787 FG usually is when the OG= 1.090??
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> I could do that for my main recipe that I've brewed several times (very
> predictable) but this is new territory for me. For my reference, can you
> tell me what your Wyeast 3787 FG usually is when the OG= 1.090??
The FG is much more dependent on the wort sugar profile than it is
on the strain of yeast used.
John.
Tennessee Tom
Amazing, I was just thinking about that and was going to post a short
followup to clarify myself. I know you've said this countless times and
I learned it from you a while back. Still, there is a small dependency
on the yeast strain. Another factor is that Joel does all-grain, while
I'm using light DME. I've been VERY careful to dissolve the DME in
boiled water while it is not on the stove burner. Also, I frequently
stir my boil and maintain it at ~4.5 gal. These steps are taken
specifically to prevent caramelization of the high-gravity wort. With
identical OG's, knowing Joel's FG gives me a frame of reference to which
I can compare my process with a [much] more experienced brewer.
Regards, Tom
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Yeah, it might give you a reference frame, but don't expect that your batch
will finish at the same FG as his batch. The wort can make a tremendous
difference, even with the same yeast.
If you do end up with a very different FG than he does, it doesn't necessarily
mean that you are doing anything wrong.
John.
Tennessee Tom
Understood.
After 4.5 days, visible activity is starting to taper off. I haven't
lifted the lid, but I think I can see enough color through the blowoff
hose to show that krausen has not yet fallen. I'll probably follow
Joel's advice for 2 weeks in primary. The scent of the yeast has become
less phenolic, and more like a nice banana/vanilla scent. So far, so
good. :-)
Regards, Tom
Tennessee Tom
> <snip>
> After 4.5 days, visible activity is starting to taper off. I haven't
> lifted the lid, but I think I can see enough color through the blowoff
> hose to show that krausen has not yet fallen.
> <snip>
I also should mention that I went with a blowoff hose because at
OG=1.092, I expected a significant eruption of krausen in my covered
"spackle bucket" primary. I have had it happen where a batch with OG
~1.062 caused bits of krausen and hop flakes to clog the airlock
(Nottingham dry yeast w/o starter). It appears I would have been fine
with an airlock here, but better safe than sorry. Since the hose is
clear, I can just baarely see down into the container and see the color
of krausen.