Using propane burners indoors
ShipleysEA
with an open door and vent hood. I aso have a CO detector/alarm in the same
room that has never gone off. Has anybody actually had any problems doing
this?
stuart
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
I'd rather not play russian roulette, thanks.
John.
--
*** John P. Kolesar ***
*** sp...@shagg.net --- http://www.shagg.net/ ***
*** Head Administrator, Monty Python's Flying Talker ***
**************************************************************
John Miller
You bet. Not personally, but back when I was in the news business, I went
to the scene of a double fatality resulting from an unvented heater (just
another form of high BTU gas burner, if you will). It wasn't a unique
event, by any means.
Now, unvented heaters used to be the norm throughout the southern U.S.; for
that matter, most of our gas stoves are unvented, for all intents and
purposes. When properly adjusted, there's minimal risk, but unvented gas
burners that are out of adjustment can kill. The bigger (BTU) they are,
the more CO they can crank out in a hurry.
I hope that the above answered the question without appearing to make any
recommendations, if you catch my drift.
--
John Miller
N4VU AMA 739245 DoD 1942
"'Broke' is a temporary condition, but 'poor' is a state of mind."
-David Kury
Peter L. Berghold
> On 11 Sep 2002 14:38:11 GMT, <shipl...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>> years with an open door and vent hood. I aso have a CO detector/alarm
>
> I'd rather not play russian roulette, thanks.
>
Actually, if CO is the primary concern, CO detectors go off way below
the thresholds that are a threat to human life/safety.
My concern with propane is the fact that the tanks they come in are
IMHO bombs without detonators and fuses.
If I were going to use any kind of fire in the house I'd rather take
an outdoor cooker and modify it to use the gas that already comes in the
house anyway. IIRC it is just a different nozzle.
Anybody know the details on doing that conversion?
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Peter L. Berghold Pe...@Berghold.Net -or- Peter.B...@med.nyu.edu
Manager Unix Engineering,MT Sinai NYU (212) 659-1468
For PGP public key send email to: pgp...@berghold.net
ShipleysEA
>I'd rather not play russian roulette, thanks.
>
>John.
So, you don't have any experience with this.
Quixotic
problems with using these indoors is the amount of heat generated compared
to a normal natural gas burner like on a gas stove and the quantity of
oxygen consumed. Propane itself also displaces oxygen and is an
asphyxiant. If you have an adequate flow of fresh air (and it sounds like
you may) I think there's no problem. As for the CO detector, I could be
wrong but I don't think that CO is a product of oxidizing Propane. I know
that CO2 is a product but I don't think that CO is. Can anybody verify
that?
Material Safety Data Sheet:
http://www.iigas.com/propane_msds.htm
Q
shipl...@aol.comnospam (ShipleysEA) wrote in
news:20020911103811...@mb-fo.aol.com:
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:42:57 -0400, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> On 11 Sep 2002 14:38:11 GMT, <shipl...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>> years with an open door and vent hood. I aso have a CO detector/alarm
>>
>> I'd rather not play russian roulette, thanks.
>>
>
> Actually, if CO is the primary concern, CO detectors go off way below
> the thresholds that are a threat to human life/safety.
>
> My concern with propane is the fact that the tanks they come in are
> IMHO bombs without detonators and fuses.
>
> If I were going to use any kind of fire in the house I'd rather take
> an outdoor cooker and modify it to use the gas that already comes in the
> house anyway. IIRC it is just a different nozzle.
>
> Anybody know the details on doing that conversion?
If I recall, the burners that run off of natural gas are different. It
won't work connecting natural gas to a propane burner. You
can get NG burners at some supply shops though. I've heard of several
homebrewers that run outside burners from the house's natural gas
supply. Not sure if any of them do it indoors. Hopefully someone who
does this will respond and give you better details.
Well, since the topic came up I may as well get out my soapbox.
To me, propane is extremely dangerous indoors for several reaons. CO
can kill you before you know it's there (without an alarm). Even with
an alarm, how much time do you have from when it goes off to get out of
the area. A 180K BTU burner is probably going to put out CO at a good
rate. I remember someone on here saying that they ran a burner in their
garage for awhile. Even when the alarm did go off once, they still were
feeling sleepy and sluggish before they could get the garage door open.
I wonder if they were doing it in their basement if they could have
gotten out of the house before passing out.
The tank itself is designed to vent in certain circumstance and since
propane is heavier than air it will naturally settle in your basement,
right where most people's hot water heater and furnace are (open flames).
If someone wants to accept the risks and run a burner indoors, that's
their decision. However I think it's extremely bad form to suggest to
others that it is in any way safe. To me it's not worth it. The risk
of my life if something goes wrong isn't worth being able to brew
indoors. Besides... SWMBO would prefer I made my brewing mess outside
anyway ;)
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
I have enough intelligence not to gain experience with this.
I have never held a revolver loaded with a single bullet up to my head
either. Doesn't mean that having the opinion that it's a stupid thing to
do isn't a valid opinion just because I've never tried it.
Sorry for getting alittle inflamatory with this. It happens to be a pet
peeve of mine. If you or anyone else wants to run your burners
inside... have at it and good luck. But please be responsible enough to
not try and talk someone else (who may not be aware of the risks) into doing
this too. At least recognize that it's dangerous.
ShipleysEA
>peeve of mine. If you or anyone else wants to run your burners
>inside... have at it and good luck. But please be responsible enough to
>not try and talk someone else (who may not be aware of the risks) into doing
>this too. At least recognize that it's dangerous.
>
>John.
>
I am not trying to talk anybody into trying anything. I simply stated what I
was doing and asked if anybody had any experience with problems from using
these burners indoors with good ventilation. If you have experience with the
situation I welcome your comments. If not, keep your smart ass comments to
yourself.
Stuart
TonyM
I smell a future Darwin Award winner here. Go on son, knock yourself out
(literally) and burn down your rat infested shack. There's no need to
contaminate the gene pool any more than it already is.
Pork, the OTHER white meat
it would be fairly safe to use them in the garage with the door open to stay
warm on a cool day or something like that, but you weren't referring to like
using them in your kitchen or living room were you?
Pork, uses OUTDOOR burners, outdoors, INDOOR burners, indoors.
"ShipleysEA" <shipl...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020911113932...@mb-fo.aol.com...
MDixon
ShipleysEA <shipl...@aol.comnospam> wrote in message
news:20020911113932...@mb-fo.aol.com...
> yourself.
Half the fun of the newsgroup is to be able to share your comments with
everyone. Especially if you have a truly gifted donkey or mule...
Cheers,
Mike
Pork, the OTHER white meat
> Half the fun of the newsgroup is to be able to share your comments with
> everyone. Especially if you have a truly gifted donkey or mule...
>
> Cheers,
> Mike
Just don't try to teach a pig to sing. It wastes your time and annoys the
pig.
Pork, can not CARRY a tune.
Peter L. Berghold
> The tank itself is designed to vent in certain circumstance and since
> propane is heavier than air it will naturally settle in your basement,
> right where most people's hot water heater and furnace are (open
> flames).
>
One of the many reasons why I made the comment that propane tanks are
like bombs without detonators and fuses. A 20lb propane tank indoors
in a basement with a water heater leaves IMHO much chance of blowing
up the house.
Try and outrun that!
For that very reason my indoor brewery is being designed with electric
heating elements...
MDixon
Peter L. Berghold <peter.b...@med.nyu.edu> wrote in message
news:pan.2002.09.11.17...@med.nyu.edu...
> One of the many reasons why I made the comment that propane tanks are
> like bombs without detonators and fuses. A 20lb propane tank indoors
> in a basement with a water heater leaves IMHO much chance of blowing
> up the house.
>
> Try and outrun that!
>
> For that very reason my indoor brewery is being designed with electric
> heating elements...
And many houses have electric water heaters ;)
Of course my house has a gas water heater, but I don't have a basement, but
I don't brew inside....
Cheers,
Mike
Ross Reid
>On Wed, 11 Sep 2002 10:42:57 -0400, John 'Shaggy' Kolesar wrote:
>
>> On 11 Sep 2002 14:38:11 GMT, <shipl...@aol.comnospam> wrote:
>>> years with an open door and vent hood. I aso have a CO detector/alarm
>>
>> I'd rather not play russian roulette, thanks.
>>
>
>Actually, if CO is the primary concern, CO detectors go off way below
>the thresholds that are a threat to human life/safety.
>
>My concern with propane is the fact that the tanks they come in are
>IMHO bombs without detonators and fuses.
>
>If I were going to use any kind of fire in the house I'd rather take
>an outdoor cooker and modify it to use the gas that already comes in the
>house anyway. IIRC it is just a different nozzle.
Actually, in my case, "the gas that already comes in the house anyway"
is propane. It is used for cooking, heating, clothes drying and hot
water heating. It is supplied from a 500 lb. tank in the back yard.
All of the above appliances are designed to be used indoors when
vented properly to the outside.
When I brew, I have two 68K Btu burners that connect to standard 20
lb. propane tanks and these are not designed to be used indoors so, I
use them outside. The closest I ever come to using a designated
outdoor burner inside is in the winter when it is cold _and_ windy.
Then I will use it in the woodshed which is attached to the rear of
the house but, the woodshed has a large squirrel cage vent fan plus, I
leave the door open. If it's just cold, I'll still use them outside.
Having used propane for the past 25 years, I have a healthy respect
for its properties and dangers.
Ross
Eliminate obvious to email.
Daniel J. Morlan
Don't worry about it if you're ventilated. I had a friend who did it
in an enclosed garage, and almost offed himself.
ShipleysEA
>in an enclosed garage, and almost offed himself.
please elaborate!
Alan McKay
who blew up his house doing it. As the story goes, his tank was pretty
old and somehow started leaking. This was in the basement, and right
above him the baby was sleeping. By some miracle when the house
exploded, the baby flew off the bed and the mattress flipped up on top
of it and the baby landed on the boxspring and the mattress on top of
it so it hardly got a scratch.
The guy got 3rd degree burns over about 70% of his body. Fortunately
nowhere visible. In fact, I don't even know which person it was. One
of the other folks came up to me afterwards and told me the story, and
told me I had been talking to the guy earlier.
Insurance didn't cover it, but luckily he was able to sue the place that
filled the tank for not checking the tank properly and confiscating it as
they
are supposed to do with old tanks.
I'll stick with outdoor propane brewing from now on ...
cheers,
-Alan
Alan McKay
> garage for awhile. Even when the alarm did go off once, they still were
> feeling sleepy and sluggish before they could get the garage door open.
> I wonder if they were doing it in their basement if they could have
> gotten out of the house before passing out.
The detectors tell you what tolerance they have, and how long at how
many PPM before they go off. I seem to recall it was a good 20 to
30 minutes at 200-300 PPM. That's way too high IMO. But you can
always spend and extra 20 bucks and get one with a display of PPM.
That's what I used when I used to brew in my basement with propane.
I kept the windows open and it hardly budged off zero.
See my other post for why I stopped doing this.
Alan McKay
> One of the many reasons why I made the comment that propane tanks are
> like bombs without detonators and fuses. A 20lb propane tank indoors
> in a basement with a water heater leaves IMHO much chance of blowing
> up the house.
Lots of folks where I am from have propane water heaters
in their basement, but tank outside of course
Alexis Demers-Marcil
that goes out of a car. You should allow fresh air to come in and the
air above your heater should be thrown outside.
That's what I've been told.
Alexis Demers-Marcil
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
Yeah, but in a poorly ventilated area the CO will build up quickly. It
can go from barely registering on the alarm to lethal doses very quickly
in your basement with the door/windows closed. Granted, that's a worst
case scenario, but I'm still happier brewing outdoors. I love my
beer... but not THAT much.
Quixotic
news:d9be73b5.02091...@posting.google.com:
> You should get an CO detector. CO can kill you, it is the same stuff
> that goes out of a car. You should allow fresh air to come in and the
> air above your heater should be thrown outside.
Be that as it may, but that is irrelevant to my point. My point was that
the CO detector is not going to give him warning that the propane or lack
of oxygen are about to kill him.
>
> That's what I've been told.
"That's what I've been told" is a poor rebuttal. Not that you don't have a
valid point, CO detectors are a good device to have in the home. Along
with smoke detectors, Radon detectors, fire extinguishers, first aid kits,
candles, bottled water, canned foods, warm blankets, etc... What I'm
driving at here is that it is completely off topic of the thread. Perhaps
you should post in the home safety newsgroup.
Q
Bob
tank higher pressure than piped natural gas?
I got a Superb burner (~35KbtuH) because it had exchangeable orifices
(orifi?)- one for NG and one for propane. I believe that BBQ propane tanks
are generally low-pressure, and residential NG is as well.
Since the burner (on propane) can bring (and keep) a 14 gallon batch to
boil in short order (<10 mins after sparge), maybe your solution is midway
between the extremes. A well made burner at 35KbtuH runs a proportionally
lower risk of inefficient combustion byproducts than a 'jet' style 170KbtuH
burner. For cold/rainy/windy weather (with a fresh air inlet and exhaust
hood) it seems a reasonable tradeoff.
bob.
shipl...@aol.comnospam (ShipleysEA) wrote in
news:20020911103811...@mb-fo.aol.com:
> Everyone says not to burn propane indoors but I have been doing so for
JTULL5
1 risk of explosion from leaky tank (and possible cancellation of your home
owners insurance policy)
2 risk of death from CO
Neither one would be considered a minor issue.
The first one could be solved by keeping the tanks outside until you're ready
to brew. Granted, lugging around a 20+ pound tank is no fun, but if you're
used to moving 40 pound fermenters, it's not so bad.
On the second risk, CO, if you have a proper hood constructed, and a CO
detector, shouldn't that be sufficient? The hood would have to be rated at
enough CFM to sufficiently draw out the gases (a 2x - 3x safety factor would be
nice). Also, you would need to crack a window to allow make-up air to come in.
Personally, I would not use the propane burner in the house. But I am
considering brewing in the garage (far enough away from the lawn mower gas),
with the garage door wide open, and a fan continuously blowing in fresh air .
If it gets cold, I'll wear a hat.
Cheers,
Jim
Colin Taddonio
Why would your homeowners policy be canceled?
**************
Medford, NY
swap net.optonline to reply via e-mail
John Miller
> Why would your homeowners policy be canceled?
As a result of incurring a large claim through one's own stupdity. Whether
or not this is allowed would no doubt depend upon the jurisdiction.
--
John Miller
"Send lawyers, guns and money..."
-- Lyrics from a Warren Zevon song
Colin Taddonio
>Colin Taddonio wrote:
>
>> Why would your homeowners policy be canceled?
>
>As a result of incurring a large claim through one's own stupdity. Whether
>or not this is allowed would no doubt depend upon the jurisdiction.
Sorry, asked the wrong question. Where I live they routinely cancel
policies after claims (stupidity has no bearing). I was thinking about
an above thread where somebody spoke of insurance not covering an
explosion from a propane burner and was wondering why it wouldn't
cover it.
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> "That's what I've been told" is a poor rebuttal. Not that you don't have a
> valid point, CO detectors are a good device to have in the home. Along
> with smoke detectors, Radon detectors, fire extinguishers, first aid kits,
> candles, bottled water, canned foods, warm blankets, etc... What I'm
> driving at here is that it is completely off topic of the thread. Perhaps
> you should post in the home safety newsgroup.
How is it off topic? Combustion of propane gas produces CO. Are you
saying that there is no CO involved in burning propane?
http://carbonmonoxidedeaths.com
The entire site is specifically about carbon monoxide deaths from running
propane heaters in enclosed spaces. One of the pages even mentions that
there have been 2 known deaths caused by CO while running a propane
lantern in a tent.
JTULL5
certain types of heaters, burners, etc. to be used inside the house. Some of
them may also have 'fine print' that states that certain types of combustibles
cannot be stored in the house.
If you are thinking of keeping LP in the house, you may want to review your
policy.
Jim
>Subject: Re: Using propane burners indoors [wanders]
>From: Colin Taddonio cta...@net.optonline
>Date: 09/12/2002 9:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time
>Message-id: <lf61ouggku0krpidi...@4ax.com>
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> On the second risk, CO, if you have a proper hood constructed, and a CO
> detector, shouldn't that be sufficient?
This is where the argument usualy comes in. What's your definition of
"sufficient" when you can potentially be killed if it doesn't work.
Personally, I believe that these burners were never designed to be run
indoors and am not willing to put my life at risk just to make beer.
Other's choose differently.
Colin Taddonio
I wasn't thinking of it but your statement does make one think. I did
a quick check in my garage and found a cylinder of propane for my
torch, a cylinder of propane for my lantern, a quart of paint thinner
and a car with a full tank of gasoline. That was just an eyeball.
I find it hard to believe that I wouldn't be covered if lit the house
on fire while sweating a pipe.
Tony Verhulst
> The detectors tell you what tolerance they have, and how long at how
> many PPM before they go off. I seem to recall it was a good 20 to
> 30 minutes at 200-300 PPM. That's way too high IMO. But you can
> always spend and extra 20 bucks and get one with a display of PPM.
> That's what I used when I used to brew in my basement with propane.
> I kept the windows open and it hardly budged off zero.
>
> See my other post for why I stopped doing this.
And here's something I poseted back in Feb 02.
brewed a Special Bitter last night (Fuggle for flavor, EKG for aroma)
and as it is winter here in the northeast US, it was a little nippy
outside. I normally brew in my garage (single car) with the door open
in all weather but this time I did it a little differently - with the
door closed.
I have several AIM SAS696D CO detectors in my house. These detectors
have a digital display and in normal operation in the house, read zero -
as in zip, nada. I took one down to the garage and closed the door when
I started to heat the sparge water. I estimate that the propane burner
was puting out about 60K BTUs. Within 15 minutes, the CO detector was
reporting CO level around the 90ppm level. According to the detector
manual, the time to alarm trigger depends on the CO concentration as
follows:
ppm minutes
75 155
100 90
150 50
200 35
250 28
300 22
350 18
400 15
450 13
500 11
550 2
Note that this is hardly a scientific experiment as there were no
controls and the instrument was not calibrated. However, the results
are significant and 90ppm is not a trivial amount of CO. In the future
will continue to brew with the door open.
Actually, I plan to repeat the experiment and then, when the CO level
stabilizes at ~90, open the garage door so that there is about 6 inches
(16cm) of space at the bottom and see what happens to the CO level. This
should be in about 2 weeks. Stay tuned.
--
It could probably be shown by facts and figures that there
is no distinctly native American criminal class except Congress.
Mark Twain
Mike Sharp
It's on-topic, relevant to the OP, and CO _is_ a byproduct of
incomplete combustion of propane, a problem with many high-output
burners. In fact, CO is flammable in itself, though that's usually
not what kills you.
I brew in the garage, with the door open, using a fairly efficient
low-pressure propane powered two burner stove. I wouldn't consider
using my 170K burner in the garage, though. That's asking for
trouble.
There are plenty of propane powered appliances rated for indoor use,
though my stove is not. The use of propane, in and of itself, does
not preclude indoor use. The tank in those cases, however, is kept
outdoors.
Regards,
Mike Sharp
JTULL5
>From: Colin Taddonio cta...@net.optonline
>Message-id: <mk91ou8lfkj3dddm1...@4ax.com>
I think half of the resources at insurance companies nowadays are dedicated to
determining how they can avoid paying claims. You want to give them any
ammunition to make their job easier.
Jim
Colin Taddonio
Only Half ;-) Insurance companies don't make money by paying.
Alan McKay
> Sorry, asked the wrong question. Where I live they routinely cancel
> policies after claims (stupidity has no bearing). I was thinking about
> an above thread where somebody spoke of insurance not covering an
> explosion from a propane burner and was wondering why it wouldn't
> cover it.
because they are not for indoor use, i guess
like if you do home wiring yourself and do not get it inspected
and there is a house fire, you could end up with no coverage
Ross Reid
>Is piped propane (for cooking/clothes dryer/waterheater use) from a large
>tank higher pressure than piped natural gas?
Short answer: Yes, propane is higher pressure but, still very low.
Long answer: Domestic propane appliances normally run on propane
regulated and supplied at 11 inches water column (WC), which is equal
to a pressure of about 6 OUNCES per square inch.
Domestic natural gas appliances run on gas regulated and supplied at
about 5 or 6 inches WC or about 3.5 to 4 OUNCES/square inch.
>
>I got a Superb burner (~35KbtuH) because it had exchangeable orifices
>(orifi?)- one for NG and one for propane. I believe that BBQ propane tanks
>are generally low-pressure, and residential NG is as well.
>
>Since the burner (on propane) can bring (and keep) a 14 gallon batch to
>boil in short order (<10 mins after sparge), maybe your solution is midway
>between the extremes. A well made burner at 35KbtuH runs a proportionally
>lower risk of inefficient combustion byproducts than a 'jet' style 170KbtuH
>burner. For cold/rainy/windy weather (with a fresh air inlet and exhaust
>hood) it seems a reasonable tradeoff.
>
>bob.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>shipl...@aol.comnospam (ShipleysEA) wrote in
>news:20020911103811...@mb-fo.aol.com:
>
>> Everyone says not to burn propane indoors but I have been doing so for
>> years with an open door and vent hood. I aso have a CO detector/alarm
>> in the same room that has never gone off. Has anybody actually had
>> any problems doing this?
>>
>> stuart
Ross
Eliminate obvious to email.
jeff
> that CO2 is a product but I don't think that CO is. Can anybody verify
> that?
CO2 is the product of COMPLETE combustion. CO is the product of incomplete
(oxygen-starved) combustion (One less oxygen atom was available.) With poor
ventilation you will have a lot of incomplete combustion. Outdoor burners
are not designed for the lower levels of ventilation that you would find
indoors
Quixotic
tangent (which I would consider "off-topic") about CO being deadly (duh!).
Thank you Jeff!
With Jeff's answer here we have a better idea of what is going on and now
know that a CO detector is a worthwhile device. As a bit of a bonus it
works on two levels; you don't have enough ventilation to provide oxygen
for complete combustion nor to ventilate out the CO.
Q
"jeff" <spamk...@ihatespam.com> wrote in
news:%Zbg9.409$Gc7...@nwrddc01.gnilink.net:
Quixotic
The reply was on a tangent from the question I asked. I asked somebody
to confirm if propane combustion produces CO vice CO2 (Thanks again
Jeff). If CO was not the product of propane oxidization then a CO
detector isn't going to do any good (call that a 'point' that I was
making)
Thank you all for the flame, now I have something to light my outdoor
propane burner in my bedroom with.
...what a bunch of @$$|-|0135...
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <sp...@shagg.net> wrote in
news:slrnao18e...@weizen.shagg.net:
Quixotic
Yes again, another one who missed my point. Thanks, no problem. My
question was... does oxidizing propane produce CO or just CO2? Evidently
ppl seemed to miss that and went of on a flame rage about CO being
dangerous (Duh!) to human and animal life. Answer the question. Which you
did here but added enough flame to level a city. Thanks again! Guess I
should be PLONKed, eh? Good, I have better places to be...
Gulftracker
> low-pressure propane powered two burner stove. I wouldn't consider
> using my 170K burner in the garage, though. That's asking for
> trouble.
>
I think it depends on the garage and what the definition of "indoors" is. I
run a 170k propane burner in my detached garage but I also have plenty of
fresh air blowing through at all times. When I brew, both car garage doors
are open. At the opposite end of the building is a side entrance door that
stays open with a fan in front of it constantly pulling in fresh air.
I also have another fan sitting in the window seal just above the kettle
steady sucking out old air/fumes. So in my case it more like brewing
outdoors with a roof over head. Shoot, I'd bet $20 I breath in more CO
idling in Houston traffic.
Hey don't get me wrong, I'm not making light of the danger of burning
propane "indoors". I just think some of these responses are a bit OT. IMHO
there's been enough responsible information given here for intellegent
adults to make up their own minds.
--
Bill
Alvin, TX
Homebrewing site
http://home.swbell.net/bufkin
"Mike Sharp" <rdc...@qwest.net> wrote in message
news:b2d051ab.02091...@posting.google.com...
Bob
kitchen stove already uses it. No 20# tanks required., and propane is
already covered in his homeowners presumably...
bob.
jtu...@aol.com (JTULL5) wrote in
news:20020912090412...@mb-bh.aol.com:
Bob
I'm thinking that the indoor risk comes from 2 areas:
1) outdoor tanks with insufficient safetys being used indoors
2) excessive CO generated by poorly tuned burners.
Since the original poster is already piped for propane, point 1 goes away.
Point 2 relates to the quality of the burner. I'd guess that a Magic Chef 4
burner range for propane installation poses no significantly greater safety
risk than a 4 burner MagicChef natural gas. That would suggest that 'some'
burners, despite being propane, are safe enough to use indoors.
Since the combined output of a stove and oven generally exceed 45 KbtuH, it
can't simply be the btu rating of a 35K burner that makes it unsafe.
Since there are a slew of different fire regulations regarding the use of
high-pressure NG (anson fire suppression systems, minimum CFM for exhaust
equipment, distances, materials, etc.), I'd guess that that the critical
ingredient here is the nature of the combustion afforded by the burner and
the pressure (flow rate) of the service, rather than the elemental
properties of these two residential use gases.
The poster never mentioned what type of burner...
bob.
Ross Reid <mrr...@nospam-golden.net> wrote in
news:1p62ouk5863an713m...@4ax.com:
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar
> The reply was on a tangent from the question I asked. I asked somebody
> to confirm if propane combustion produces CO vice CO2 (Thanks again
The reason I posted the link is because it talks about the dangers of CO
from propane combustion. I was assuming that would be confirmation that
CO is involved, and not just CO2. Maybe I should have spelled it out
clearer, sorry.
Mike Sharp
I'd suggest you RDWHAHB, but I think maybe a valium would work better.
In what way did I:
a.) Not answer the question?
b.) Flame you or anyone?
Chill out dude. You weren't the OP, nor do you or anyone else own the
thread.
Or are you merely trolling?
mike
Quixotic <xem...@hotmail.com> wrote in message news:<Xns9287D658E37D7...@199.45.49.11>...
Quixotic
was defensive. My deal was that I asked somebody to confirm something
and I interpreted the immediate response as "BLAH CO KILLS". When I
pinged on that, I felt like I was being slammed. (Perhaps I shouldn't
have read that email in the morning, eh?) Anyways, my apologies all
around, I was indeed "The asshole of the day". I owe you all a pint...
Q
rdc...@qwest.net (Mike Sharp) wrote in
news:b2d051ab.02091...@posting.google.com:
Quixotic
<included from other post>
Not trolling, perhaps I should just, as you suggest, chill. Sorry if I
was defensive. My deal was that I asked somebody to confirm something
and I interpreted the immediate response as "BLAH CO KILLS". When I
pinged on that, I felt like I was being slammed. (Perhaps I shouldn't
have read that email in the morning, eh?) Anyways, my apologies all
around, I was indeed "The asshole of the day". I owe you all a pint...
Q
</included>
Which BTW, I have a tasty porter on tap in my garage...
John 'Shaggy' Kolesar <sp...@shagg.net> wrote in
news:slrnao3v2...@weizen.shagg.net:
HomeImprovements
average sized kitchen, a 1sq ft opening both low and high in a wall are
adequate.
"Tony Verhulst" <tony.v...@hp.com> wrote in message
news:3D80B1CD...@hp.com...
s.dr...@gmail.com
Bob F
> If you do not get a full burn propane heaters used inside can produce carbon monoxide. You know when you are getting a complete burn when the flame is a blue colour on the bottom and yellow and red flame on top.
>
baloonon
That thread had some interesting anecdotes about faulty tanks blowing up
and CO poisoning. It really seems to me that if stovetop boiling for some
reason wasn't practical, the smart solution would be to do an electric
setup, either with a prebuilt system or DIY.
It looks like all in one mash and boil systems that run on 110v are down to
around $300, and I would bet the cost plus the electricity to run it
wouldn't be that much more than a kettle, propane stove and the propane
tanks once you spread out the costs over a couple of years.
Joerg
Walmart 1kW cooktops, placing them back to back so that the largest
available (13-gallon) tamale steamer just straddles them. They are fed
from two different circuits because in the US we mostly only have wimpy
120V/15A circuits. Still it takes a long time. 1h to get to 155F and
later another 1h to get to a boil. Then I add in the extract and getting
all this back to a boil consumes another 1/2h. Waiting for the
thermometer to get to 208F right now, for a Rye Pale Ale.
Propane would be safe down there because I have a cooking alcove in the
man cave, with its own flue. That plus a good CO detector plus an open
sliding door should work. Unfortunately the room is carpeted and there
is no water on that side so I can't use it.
--
Regards, Joerg
http://www.analogconsultants.com/
baloonon
bit is that an all in one system that runs on 120v is a good bit faster
than that. I'm not sure if it generates more heat or is more efficient
or what, but reported times I've seen are significantly less, something
like half the time you report. 220v systems are supposed to be a good
bit faster than that, but generally pricier.
$300 for the Brewer's Edge system is probably more than I'd want to
replace my current stovetop setup, but I could imagine the price going
down in the future or seeing a good cheap used one for sale someday that
I'd buy.
> Propane would be safe down there because I have a cooking alcove in
> the man cave, with its own flue. That plus a good CO detector plus an
> open sliding door should work. Unfortunately the room is carpeted and
> there is no water on that side so I can't use it.
something with a flue might be OK -- I know there are lots of people who
have propane for their stoves, water heaters, and other appliances,
although they are professionally installed. It's something I'd never do
myself as a DIY thing, though.
From a practical standpoint hauling the canisters seems like a pain,
you'd need to keep spares around so you don't run out of fuel partway
through, and the cost is significantly more than electricity. If there
was a professionally installed outdoor tank and piping that would be a
different story, of course, but I can't see the usual propane burner
brewing ever being something I'd do just because I don't want to deal
with the canisters. When my gas grill started rusting I got rid of it
and went back to charcoal and wood grilling because I got tired of
dealing with propane canisters.
Joerg
https://www.williamsbrewing.com/BREWERS-EDGE-MASH-BOIL--P4216.aspx
Though they must have 100% effective insulation which is har to imagine.
Even then it would take 43mins to heat from 70F to 162F, nit 40mins:
http://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-power
I wish they'd keep the electronics separate on such units because I like
to give all my brewing equipment a thorough scrubbing after each use.
Due to the size that has to happen standing in the shower in keans
shorts and T-shirt in my case.
The other concern is the 1600W which is a close call for a 120V 15A
circuit. The power outlet will also become quite hot because of the
duration of this power draw. A 240V version, now that would be something.
I am still looking for a very large diameter 240V or 230V electric
burner that has >3000W. The ones I could get from Europe are too small
in diameter and then the thin aluminum bottom of my tamale steamer
turned brew kettle would bend.
>> Propane would be safe down there because I have a cooking alcove in
>> the man cave, with its own flue. That plus a good CO detector plus an
>> open sliding door should work. Unfortunately the room is carpeted and
>> there is no water on that side so I can't use it.
>
> I read a fair number of people nervous about propane indoors, although
> something with a flue might be OK -- I know there are lots of people who
> have propane for their stoves, water heaters, and other appliances,
> although they are professionally installed. It's something I'd never do
> myself as a DIY thing, though.
>
> From a practical standpoint hauling the canisters seems like a pain,
> you'd need to keep spares around so you don't run out of fuel partway
> through, and the cost is significantly more than electricity. If there
> was a professionally installed outdoor tank and piping that would be a
> different story, of course, but I can't see the usual propane burner
> brewing ever being something I'd do just because I don't want to deal
> with the canisters. When my gas grill started rusting I got rid of it
> and went back to charcoal and wood grilling because I got tired of
> dealing with propane canisters.
>
we do. Still, there'd be the expense of running a line to where your man
cave with the brewing kit is. Bottles would be a non-starter for me
because you'd always have to keep two. Brewing requires so much propane
that you'll run out every so many batches.
Bob F
brewing area. Water is right there, and the dryer outlet would provide
power for a good sized 220V burner.
baloonon
> On 2017-12-03 05:58, baloonon wrote:
>> $300 for the Brewer's Edge system is probably more than I'd want to
>> replace my current stovetop setup, but I could imagine the price
>> going down in the future or seeing a good cheap used one for sale
>> someday that I'd buy.
>
> It sure is nice:
>
> https://www.williamsbrewing.com/BREWERS-EDGE-MASH-BOIL--P4216.aspx
>
> Though they must have 100% effective insulation which is har to
> imagine. Even then it would take 43mins to heat from 70F to 162F, nit
> 40mins:
>
> http://bloglocation.com/art/water-heating-calculator-for-time-energy-
power
set up the water the night before if you want to brew in the morning,
and when you're done with breakfast the water is ready at
(approximately) the right temp. I would assume there might be a need to
double check the temperature readout on the machine, so it may be
necessary to fiddle around a bit to hit exactly 160F or whatever the
target temperature is before adding the grain. But that can still be a
big convenience.
Come to think of it, there's a timer on my oven and in theory I could
put the water into the oven the night before to heat up at a designated
time, although I'm sure that would be wildly inefficient.
Joerg
A digital thermometer wirelessly sends the temperature into the living
quarters and it beeps when the target is reached. So the usual drill is
to wake up, turn on both burners, have breakfast, handle morning emails
from clients and other things, at 155F put in the steeping grains, take
a shower, brush teeth, some other things, take out grains, set target to
208F and head for a nice long walk with the dogs. My wife then turns it
off when 208F is reached. I could also automate that with timer and
auto-turn-off or a "keep at target" control. Maybe some day but right
now this works well for us.
Joerg
> On 12/3/2017 9:28 AM, Joerg wrote:
>> On 2017-12-03 05:58, baloonon wrote:
>>> From a practical standpoint hauling the canisters seems like a pain,
>>> you'd need to keep spares around so you don't run out of fuel partway
>>> through, and the cost is significantly more than electricity. If there
>>> was a professionally installed outdoor tank and piping that would be a
>>> different story, of course, but I can't see the usual propane burner
>>> brewing ever being something I'd do just because I don't want to deal
>>> with the canisters. When my gas grill started rusting I got rid of it
>>> and went back to charcoal and wood grilling because I got tired of
>>> dealing with propane canisters.
>>>
>>
>> IMHO it only makes sense if you have a propane tank for the house
>> which we do. Still, there'd be the expense of running a line to where
>> your man cave with the brewing kit is. Bottles would be a non-starter
>> for me because you'd always have to keep two. Brewing requires so much
>> propane that you'll run out every so many batches.
>>
>
> If you have a laundry area with a wash tub, that would make an ideal
> brewing area. Water is right there, and the dryer outlet would provide
> power for a good sized 220V burner.
up the house. The other issue is that bottling would be near impossible
there and the fermentation chamber (modified wine fridge) is downstairs.
I'd have to schlepp the heavy buckets and my back is not good.
My favorite brew place is in the backyard. From there it's just a short
path to the fermentation chamber with only four shallow steps.
I could get 240V both downstairs and outside which out here is more like
255V, then if needed wire up a small auto-ransformer to step that down
to 230V or so. However, so far I haven't found a burned in Europe large
enough in diameter so it won't bend the kettle bottom.
One thing I'd really like to do is insulate the brew kettle for better
heating efficiency because it looks like those two 1kW burners is as
good as it gets for me. So far the water heater blankets and other stuff
has too much in loose fibers coming off that cold get into the brew.
Bob F
>
> I could get 240V both downstairs and outside which out here is more like
> 255V, then if needed wire up a small auto-ransformer to step that down
> to 230V or so. However, so far I haven't found a burned in Europe large
> enough in diameter so it won't bend the kettle bottom.
>
Bob F
baloonon
insulated so it would be wildly inefficient for me.
I guess there's the side benefit of heating the house during the winter,
with the opposite effect of running up the AC bill in the summer (which can
be countered by drinking gin and tonics instead, I guess).
Joerg
kettle :-)
It still would make for a less-than-safe situation because the whole
thing would teeter on a small diameter burner. I want things stable.