IPA vs ESB
Noodling
These are two styles that seem to be really popular in the hombrewing
community and I just had a couple thoughts.
First, in all the recipes I have read IPAs are almost always the most heavily
hopped. But then I have read descriptions of ESBs as being the hoppiest, but
the recipes I have seen don't seem to back this up. I don't think I have ever
had a commercial ESB (at least that I know of), and very few IPAs. I'm curious
which one people prefer to brew and why? Also if you have any suggestions for
a commercial ESB I'd appreciate it.
thanks
matt
Larry Combs
Noodling wrote:
Matt--
Fullers ESB when fresh is IMO a good commercial example of the English ESB.
Larry Combs
The Gar Hole Brewery
LA (Lower Arkansas)
M Jarvis [The BrewDomain]
over to IPA's.... I would examine the recipes you've seen a bit more
closely and take personal preferences into account. IPA should stand
head and shoulders above a bitter, even an ESB. I will admit though that
the import IPA's I've tried don't have that in-your-face hops like we
Merkins seem to enjoy so much....
I don't drink much commercial ESB (mine is better) but one that comes to
mind is the Deshutes Brewery's (Bend, Oregon) ESB.
When I think commercial IPA, I think of Anderson Valley and Bridgeport
IPA's - I haven't made up my mind which I like better but I think they
both do well to represent the boldness and hoppy character of the style.
--
Matt Jarvis
Author, Brew Simple Software
http://www.BrewDomain.com
Take the Homebrewer's Survey at: http://www.BrewDomain.com/survey.html
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
Mike Uchima
both styles tend to be quite hoppy. But in general, I tend to think of
IPAs as having a flavor balance that is tipped towards the hops, whereas
ESBs are more balanced.
Fullers ESB is the classic example (they supposedly invented the
style). Unfortunately, Fullers is not that easy to find in the US, and
is often "over the hill" when you do find it. I had the great pleasure
of tasting fresh Fullers on cask at the Real Ale Festival a couple of
years ago... it's a very different beer from the bottled product (loads
of hop aroma, which is lacking in the bottled version).
Redhook ESB is probably the best known domestic (US) example... it tends
to be loaded with diacetyl, which gives it a pronounced buttery
character.
Anchor Liberty is probably the best known commercial IPA in the US.
I like both styles, and brewed both a number of times. I tend to have
better luck with my IPAs... on the ESBs, the "balance" which I think a
good ESB should have generally eludes me. I'll figure out the perfect
ESB recipe someday, though! :-)
--
== Mike Uchima == uch...@pobox.com == http://www.pobox.com/~uchima ==
k.vant...@lacksenterprises.com
wrote:
>Well, there really is quite a bit of overlap between the two styles, and
>both styles tend to be quite hoppy. But in general, I tend to think of
>IPAs as having a flavor balance that is tipped towards the hops, whereas
>ESBs are more balanced.
>
>Fullers ESB is the classic example (they supposedly invented the
>style). Unfortunately, Fullers is not that easy to find in the US, and
>is often "over the hill" when you do find it. I had the great pleasure
>of tasting fresh Fullers on cask at the Real Ale Festival a couple of
>years ago... it's a very different beer from the bottled product (loads
>of hop aroma, which is lacking in the bottled version).
>
Just bought a six this weekend. The freshest lot so far. There still
was some pretty good hop aroma going on. Great stuff.
>Redhook ESB is probably the best known domestic (US) example... it tends
>to be loaded with diacetyl, which gives it a pronounced buttery
>character.
>
Ya gotta love that diacetyl.
kent
kbr...@my-deja.com
and Stone Brewing's Stone IPA are both great. Very different, too.
The Younger's is balanced; the aroma is hops and caramel malt, the
flavor is bitter hops and toffee/caramel tastes. Stone IPA is all
hops. The first few sips are so powerful that I can't taste anything
other than bitterness. It is like having someone turn on the lights in
your bedroom in the middle of of the night; sensory overload. I have
to get half way through a pint before my palate adjusts, then I can
taste some malt.
barl...@my-deja.com
and hop levels which is further confused by the wide variety of brews
out there which are pushing the limts on styles (i.e. huge hoppy IPAs)
as well as new substyles which arguably exist - I believe
that "American IPA" is a real and prevalent style which is quite
distinct when compared to it's English counterpart.
"ESB" is the trade name given by Fuller to it's Strong Bitter and is
just one example of beers in this style. I have brewed countless beers
in each of the above categories and judged many more. Where I
will "split hairs" between a hoppy strong bitter or pale ale and an IPA
is in the finish. If the appropriate water treatment is used (or your
lucky enough to have the right mineral rich natural water) to leave a
crisp finish with good balance between hop flavor and slight mineral
flavors, it's an IPA. If I'm left chewing on a mouthful of sweet malty
flavors, the mark of a true IPA has been missed. This dosen't mean
it's a bad beer by any means, it just misses the classic mark of a true
IPA. Try a good "ESB" next to a good IPA and instead of focusing on
the level of hop aroma or flavor, focus on the finish - you'll see what
I mean.
Cheers!
Steven
In article <93ts07$hsf$1...@nnrp1.deja.com>,
DifferentPiper
>hops. The first few sips are so powerful that I can't taste anything
>other than bitterness. It is like having someone turn on the lights in
>your bedroom in the middle of of the night; sensory overload.
Stone is one of my favorite brews, and it was their IPA that got me thinking
about hopping up my own beer. I really like their Arrogant Bastard ale, and
someday I'll get ahold of their Double Bastard before it sells out...
Scott
Bill Wible
<nood...@aol.com> wrote:
Matt,
I enjoy brewing and drinking both styles. But each is different from
the other. Here is what the BJCP has to say:
7. INDIA PALE ALE
Aroma: A prominent hop aroma of floral, grassy, or fruity chracter is
typical. A carmel-like or toasty malt presence may also be noted, but
at a low level. Fruitiness, either from ester or hops, may also be
detected.
Appearance: Color ranges from medium gold to deep copper, with English
versions often darker than the American ones. Should be clear,
although some haze at cold temperatures is acceptable.
Flavor: Hop flavor is medium to high, with an assertive hop
bitterness. Malt flavor should be low to medium, but should be
sufficient to support the hop aspect. Despite the substantial hop
character typicalof these beers, sufficient malt flavor, body and
complexity to support the hops will provide the best balance. Very low
levels of Diacetyl are acceptable, and fruitiness from the fermentation
or the hops should add to the overall complexity. Some alcohol warming
may be sensed in stronger versions.
Mouthfeel: Smooth, medium bodied mouthfeel without astringency,
although it has moderate carbonation combine to render an overall dry
sensation in the presence of malt sweetness.
Overall Impression: A decidedly hoppy, moderately strong, pale ale.
History: Brewed to survive the long voyage from England to India. The
temperature extremes and rolling seas resulted in a highly attenuated
beer upon arrival.
Comments: A pale ale that was brewed to an increased gravity and hop
rate.
Ingredients: Pale ale malt (well modified and suitable for single
temperature infusion mashes); English hops were used in the original
versions, but American hop varieties have found a place in many modern
interpretations. Refined sugar may have been used in some versions
also. High sulfate and low carbonate water is essential to achieving a
pleasant hop bitterness.
Vital Statistics: OG 1.050-1.075
IBU: 40-60+ FG 1.012-1.016
SRM: 8-14 ABV 5-7.8%
Commercial Examples: Anchor Liberty Ale, Sierra Nevada Celebration Ale,
Brooklyn East India Pale Ale, Tupper's Hop Pocket, Great Lakes
Commodore Perry IPA, Samuel Smith's India Ale, Fuller's IPA, Victory
Hop Devil, Three Floyd's Alpha King
4C. Strong Bitter/English Pale Ale
Aroma: Hop aroma high to none. Diacetly and carmel aroma moderate to
none. Moderate fruitiness. Malt aroma apparent.
Appearance: Copper to dark amber-brown. May have very little head.
Flavor: Malt flavors evident. Crystal malt flavor common. Hop flavor
ranges from low to strong. Diacetyl and fruitiness moderate to none.
Balance varies from even to quite bitter, although malt flavor should
not be completely overpowered.
Mouthfeel: Medium to full-bodied. Carbonation low, although bottled
versions tend to have moderate carbonation. Warmong from alcohol may
be noticeable, but should not be strong.
Overall Impression: A solidly flavored beer, bothin terms of malt and
hops.
History: Originally a draught ale served very fresh under no pressure
(gravity and hand pump only) at cellar temperatures. Note that
recently, some British Brewers have been using American hops (e.g.
Cascade), but beers made like this fit better into the American Pale
Ale category.
Comments: More evident malt and hop flavors than in a special or best
bitter. English Pale Ale has long been referred to as "bottled
bitter."
Ingredients: Pale ale malt, crystal malt, English Hops, and often
medium sulfate water is used.
Vital Statistics: OG: 1.046-1.065
IBU: 30-65 FG: 1.011-1.020
SRM: 6-14 ABV: 4.4-6.2%
Commercial Examples: Fuller's ESB, Bateman's XXXB, Young's Strong
Export Bitter (sold in the US as Young's Special London Ale), Ushers
1824 Particular Ale, Oasis ESB, Big Time ESB, Shepard Neame Bishop's
Finger, Fuller's 1845, bottled Bass Ale, Whitbread, Royal Oak, Shepard
Neame Spitfire.
One of my favorites, Foster's ESB, was not listed in the BJCP
commercial examples. Victory Hop Devil is probably my favorite
IPA ever.
In my experience, the ESB's are more rounded beers that combine hops
and malt, while the IPA's tend to be wildly hoppy brews. No ESB I've
had has ever come close to an IPA in terms of "back of the tongue" hop
bitterness, or the "in your face" hop aroma.
True ESB's are made with all English ingredients - especially the hops.
IPA's, while they may have been originally an English creation, are now
dominated over by the American versions, which showcase American hop
types such as Cascade and Centennial. Yeast profiles for the 2 would
also be very different, the ESB's using English Yeasts which produce
fruitiness and diacetly, such as the Wyeast 1098, 1028, or 1968. The
IPA's would use a cleaner, more neutral yeast, like the Wyeast 1056.
This was a good question, and I found it interesting comparing these 2
styles.
- Bill Wible
BREW BY YOU
3504 Cottman Ave
Phila, PA 19149
www.brewbyyou.net
kbr...@my-deja.com
differe...@gateway.net (DifferentPiper) wrote:
> about hopping up my own beer. I really like their Arrogant Bastard
ale, and
> someday I'll get ahold of their Double Bastard before it sells out...
I like the Arrogant Bastard, too. Sometimes we can get it on tap here
in Berkeley. I have never even heard of Double Bastard, but I would
love to try it. Lets hope they can keep it up. It seems like a lot of
breweries just fall apart when they try to grow beyond a certain size.
Marc Gaspard
as ESB in England. ESB is (I believe) a registered name with Fullers.
Historically in England there were Bitters, Special Bitters, and Strong
Bitters. As Steve mentioned below, there is quite a bit of overlap be-
tween the style categories.
Marc Gaspard
"Beer is proof that God loves us and wants us to be happy."-Ben Franklin
<barl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message news:93vilq$u0n$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Robert Truswell
me, I would assume they meant Fuller's.
"Marc Gaspard" <mgas...@kc.rr.com> wrote in message
news:fI496.56722$Y23.1...@typhoon.kc.rr.com...
somepaguy
Lots of hops not to mention strong alcohol content.
I am still chasing that fullers recipe, nothing like a fresh pulled pint
!!
Domenick Venezia
Awards 2000 in the International Ale competition (cans and bottles).
Bridgeport is Oregon's oldest craft brewery being over 15 years old.
Their ESB is awesome also.
http://www.bridgeportbrew.com/home.html
Domenick Venezia
Venezia & Company, LLC
Maker of PrimeTab
(206) 782-1152 phone
(206) 782-6766 fax orders
demonick at zgi dot com
http://www.primetab.com
barl...@my-deja.com
In article <20010115173609...@ng-fy1.news.gateway.net>,
differe...@gateway.net (DifferentPiper) wrote:
Phil
> According to a recent article in Zymurgy, there really is no such style
> as ESB in England. ESB is (I believe) a registered name with Fullers.
> Historically in England there were Bitters, Special Bitters, and Strong
> Bitters. As Steve mentioned below, there is quite a bit of overlap be-
> tween the style categories.
>
"ESB". However, it has sort of become a generic term. Obviously, there's
Fuller's "ESB". However I would include Shepherd Neame's "Bishop's
Finger", and Young's "Special" in the ESB class along with another
Fuller's brew, "1845". Actually we are spoiled for choice when it comes to
heavily bodied, darkish beers in the UK.
As for IPA, I notice nobody has nominated my favourite, which is a Scottish
brew from Deuchar's (even thought the one I normally drink, because of
availability more than anything else, is Greene King). Somehow Deuchar's
has got something that the others seem to lack.
--
Cyclops
Phil
<Snip>
> I am still chasing that fullers recipe, nothing like a fresh pulled
> pint!!
>
"Brew Your Own British Real Ale At Home" by Graham Wheeler & Roger Protz
(CAMRA Books, ISBN 1-8524-9138-8). It is well worth the investment. If you
can get hold of a bottle of Fuller's 1845 you will get some Fuller's yeast
to brew it with as well (I can't remember if bottled ESB is bottle-
conditioned or not – when I drink it, it is on draught).
--
Cyclops
DifferentPiper
No, but behind the "Liquid Arrogance" posturing, they seem like nice people who
started out homebrewing themselves. I've had a couple of pleasant responses to
e-mails. their website is www.stonebrew.com
They might be willing to share some of their trade secrets, or they might
not...
Scott