Lager fermentation (warm or cold)

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Tim Langlois

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Dec 1, 1993, 10:59:37 AM12/1/93
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I have a lager recipe which recomends fermenting the lager at room temperature
until active(vigorous) fermentation completes, and then placing the beer
in a cold environment. Is this good advice? Or do lagers turn out better
when the entire fermentation process is performed in a cold environment?

Any help would be appreciated.

Tim
--
Optimization Technology Inc. Tim Langlois (lang...@oti-hsv.com)
Huntsville, AL, (205) 721-1288 Software Engineer

Gary Rich

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Dec 1, 1993, 7:20:55 PM12/1/93
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In article <2dif19$p...@otisun01.oti-hsv.com> lang...@oti-hsv.com (Tim Langlois) writes:
>
>I have a lager recipe which recomends fermenting the lager at room temperature
>until active(vigorous) fermentation completes, and then placing the beer
>in a cold environment. Is this good advice? Or do lagers turn out better
>when the entire fermentation process is performed in a cold environment?

This is a recipe for a high diacetyl level (buttery taste) that is not
usually desirable in lagers. The initial warm stage of the fermantation
will produce more diacetyl that the yeast will be able to later reduce at the
low temp. A lot of homebrewers do this, sice an underpitched lager
started at a low temp may have a very long lag time. This induces the dreaded
Worry effect. A better solution is to pitch at least a 1 litre yeast starter.

Current standard American practice is the opposite of the above, that is
to do the first part of the ferment (2-3 weeks) at 50 degrees or cooler
and then later giving it a rest at 55 or so to make sure that all diacetyl
has been reduced.

Gary Rich | Quarterdeck Office Systems, Santa Monica CA
gary...@qdeck.com
Nobody listens to my opinions, so why I should bother disclaiming them?

Eric Pepke

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Dec 2, 1993, 2:42:41 PM12/2/93
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In article <2dif19$p...@otisun01.oti-hsv.com>, lang...@oti-hsv.com (Tim

Langlois) wrote:
> I have a lager recipe which recomends fermenting the lager at room temperature
> until active(vigorous) fermentation completes, and then placing the beer
> in a cold environment. Is this good advice? Or do lagers turn out better
> when the entire fermentation process is performed in a cold environment?

In my experience, the only way to get real lager flavor, of the kind that
you can't get this side of Germany, is to do the entire fermentation cold.
I do it at 5 to 7 degrees Celsius. It takes forever to get going and a
couple of months at least to complete, but damn is it good!

If you want something more like an English or Australian lager, you could
do primary at room temperature.

Eric Pepke INTERNET: pe...@scri.fsu.edu
Supercomputer Computations Research Institute MFENET: pepke@fsu
Florida State University SPAN: scri::pepke
Tallahassee, FL 32306-4052 BITNET: pepke@fsu

Disclaimer: My employers seldom even LISTEN to my opinions.
Meta-disclaimer: Any society that needs disclaimers has too many lawyers.

Mike Hall

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Dec 6, 1993, 1:45:12 PM12/6/93
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Please forgive me if this is a topic covered in the FAQ (this is the
first time I've really read the newsgroup), but I'd like to know if
a first or second timer can expect to brew anything that even remotely
resembles Woodpecker. I just went in with a friend from work on a kit
and we are awaiting our first batch. Meanwhile, I'd like to know if we
could get some good ideas on getting something like Woodpecker.

Please remember that I'm VERY new to all this, and terms and abreviations
are going to be way over my head. Am I expecting too much? Should I stick
to easier brews the first few times? How soon could I expect to be able
to brew this with confidence? How long will it take? etc...

Oh yeah, don't forget the recipe (in simple terms and instructions...) :)

Thanks in advance and just remember, you're fostering a newbie brewer
who would really like to learn this wonderful hobby.

//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////
// Mike A. Hall // "...a strange situation, wild occupation, //
// mh...@moe.coe.uga.edu // livin' a life like a song." //
// University of Georgia // --J.Buffett //
//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////


Eric Pepke

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Dec 6, 1993, 4:24:45 PM12/6/93
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In article <2dvujo$5...@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>, mh...@moe.coe.uga.edu (Mike

Hall) wrote:
>
> Please forgive me if this is a topic covered in the FAQ (this is the
> first time I've really read the newsgroup), but I'd like to know if
> a first or second timer can expect to brew anything that even remotely
> resembles Woodpecker. I just went in with a friend from work on a kit
> and we are awaiting our first batch. Meanwhile, I'd like to know if we
> could get some good ideas on getting something like Woodpecker.

It's very difficult to make a cider that tastes like Woodpecker, because
it's so sweet. You basically have two choices:

1) Pasteurize, filter, and artificially carbonate.
2) Add artificial sweetening (saccharine and/or aspartame).

Both of these tend to go against the grain, but both are common in English
mass-produced cider.

You could also add so much sugar that a non-attenuative yeast would die,
but you would get more alcohol than is in Woodpecker.

When I make cider, I usually just drink it still before the fermentation is
complete. It's very easy to make--just get a jug of apple cider, pour some
out to give krausen space, add some yeast, fit an airlock, and wait a
couple of days.

If you can find California Champagne yeast by Red Star, it produces a
slightly sweet cider when fermentation is complete. It's not as sweet as
Woodpecker, but I like it. Then again, I don't like Woodpecker.

Carl E. Anderson

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Dec 6, 1993, 3:37:08 PM12/6/93
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Someone asked about using B-BRite, but I accidentally deleted the
post. But in any case, I've been using B-Brite since I started and
haven't had any problems with it. It works fast (half-hour minimum) and is
very good at removing gunk. Rinse it off stuff with cold water.

Cheers,
Carl

------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl Edlund Anderson "Hefi ek ok aldri sva reitt vapn
Harvard University at manni at eigi hafi vid kommit."
can...@isr.harvard.edu - Skarphedinn Njalsson
------------------------------------------------------------------------

John Shepardson

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Dec 6, 1993, 12:35:06 PM12/6/93
to
In article <2dif19$p...@otisun01.oti-hsv.com>, lang...@oti-hsv.com (Tim
Langlois) wrote:
>
>
> I have a lager recipe which recomends fermenting the lager at room temperature
> until active(vigorous) fermentation completes, and then placing the beer
> in a cold environment. Is this good advice?

It is definitely good advice if you are pitching an inadequate yeast
population, which is a common problem of lager home-brewers. If you are
repitching lots of yeast from a previous fermentation, or have at least a
gallon starter batch go ahead and start the ferment cold.

The reason is simply that lager yeast grow much quicker at 60 - 70 F than
they do at 40-50F. If you toss a Wyeast packet directly into your
primary at 45F, don't be surprised if it takes three days to start up.


John Shepardson | No pain, no grain.

Donald Leonard

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Dec 6, 1993, 9:15:06 AM12/6/93
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In article <1993Dec02....@qdeck.com> gary...@qdeck.com (Gary Rich) writes:
>In article <2dif19$p...@otisun01.oti-hsv.com> lang...@oti-hsv.com (Tim Langlois) writes:
>>
>>I have a lager recipe which recomends fermenting the lager at room temperature
>>until active(vigorous) fermentation completes, and then placing the beer
>>in a cold environment. Is this good advice? Or do lagers turn out better
>>when the entire fermentation process is performed in a cold environment?
>
>This is a recipe for a high diacetyl level (buttery taste) that is not
>usually desirable in lagers. The initial warm stage of the fermantation
>will produce more diacetyl that the yeast will be able to later reduce at the
>low temp. A lot of homebrewers do this, sice an underpitched lager
>started at a low temp may have a very long lag time. This induces the dreaded
>Worry effect. A better solution is to pitch at least a 1 litre yeast starter.
>
>Current standard American practice is the opposite of the above, that is
>to do the first part of the ferment (2-3 weeks) at 50 degrees or cooler
>and then later giving it a rest at 55 or so to make sure that all diacetyl
>has been reduced.
>
I'm not an expert but I've done about 7 lager batches. All have
been made with starters pitched into wort chilled to 60 deg. The
wort sits at room temp (~65) until it starts. This usually happens
by late the next morning or sooner. When it start the carboy is
placed in the fridge where it will, because of the volume, cool
down slowly to ~50 degrees. After the primary is over, and before
its racked, I do a diacetl rest. I've omitted this step a couple of
times and have not noticed a difference. The beer is then racked to
a secondary where it sits for clearing. I may or may not add
polyclar at this point, it depends upon my mood. After a few weeks
the beer is lagered at 38-40 deg for about a month in kegs.
All the beers have turned out very well.

don
--
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Donald T. Leonard |Honda Sabre | "Bumpy trails?
d...@tellabs.com |Artic Cat EXT (hers)| Don't get mad get rad!"
..!uunet!tellab5!don |Indy 650 (his) | "No such thing as too much
______________ | much head"
/M __\___________________________________________
<MM (_____LLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL______)
\M____________/
---------------------------------------------------------------------

Jay Hersh

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Dec 6, 1993, 7:42:54 PM12/6/93
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pe...@scri.fsu.edu (Eric Pepke) writes:

>In article <2dvujo$5...@hobbes.cc.uga.edu>, mh...@moe.coe.uga.edu (Mike
>Hall) wrote:
>>
>> Please forgive me if this is a topic covered in the FAQ (this is the
>> first time I've really read the newsgroup), but I'd like to know if
>> a first or second timer can expect to brew anything that even remotely
>> resembles Woodpecker. I just went in with a friend from work on a kit
>> and we are awaiting our first batch. Meanwhile, I'd like to know if we
>> could get some good ideas on getting something like Woodpecker.

>It's very difficult to make a cider that tastes like Woodpecker, because
>it's so sweet. You basically have two choices:

I beg to differ here Eric. I have been making a draft cider comparable
to Woodpecker and other similar ones for a while now. The last 2 years what
I have done is to boil a portion of the cider to concentrate it, then
add it to the remainder. So for a 3 gallon batch I boil 2 gallons down to
1/2 gallon, then add to 3 gallons. I use an Ale yeast. The result is about
3 gallons of a cider that finishes at 1.000 to 1.005 however this is misleading
In fact the cider tastes sweeter than the gravity indicates (this is likely
to presence of unfermentable sugars and the fact that the is not a linear
relation between displacement of sugar ie real extract vs apparent extract).
My starting gravities on these have been around 1.060 to 1.065 (varies
from year to year with gravity of the cider), but they are all reasonably
sweet and not at all dry.


JaH
--
Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

fram...@skitzo.dseg.ti.com

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Dec 6, 1993, 4:35:09 PM12/6/93
to

> It is definitely good advice if you are pitching an inadequate yeast
> population, which is a common problem of lager home-brewers.

> The reason is simply that lager yeast grow much quicker at 60 - 70 F than


> they do at 40-50F. If you toss a Wyeast packet directly into your
> primary at 45F, don't be surprised if it takes three days to start up.

Reading this prompted me to write about an experimental weekend I had.

Since the Decarlo started himself a Barley Wine, I did the same.
13.5 lbs of extract, I did. :-) The stuff I had constituted a
Vienna, but what the heck. I also decided to use a hybrid yeast
mixture... 1 packet dry ale and 1 package liquid lager. I swear it
wasn't 3 hours after pitching (no starter) and fermentation had
kicked off. May not be worth drinking but a worth while experiment. :-)

Hey aren't Viennas normally a little high in alcohol? :-)

> John Shepardson | No pain, no grain.

Mark Frampton..

Rolf Erickson

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Dec 7, 1993, 7:49:40 AM12/7/93
to
In article <hersh.7...@xenon.x.org>, he...@x.org (Jay Hersh) wrote:

> I beg to differ here Eric. I have been making a draft cider comparable
> to Woodpecker and other similar ones for a while now. The last 2 years what
> I have done is to boil a portion of the cider to concentrate it, then
> add it to the remainder. So for a 3 gallon batch I boil 2 gallons down to
> 1/2 gallon, then add to 3 gallons. I use an Ale yeast. The result is about
> 3 gallons of a cider that finishes at 1.000 to 1.005 however this is misleading
> In fact the cider tastes sweeter than the gravity indicates (this is likely
> to presence of unfermentable sugars and the fact that the is not a linear
> relation between displacement of sugar ie real extract vs apparent extract).
> My starting gravities on these have been around 1.060 to 1.065 (varies
> from year to year with gravity of the cider), but they are all reasonably
> sweet and not at all dry.
>
>
> JaH
> --
> Hopfen und Malz, Gott erhalts

Jay, wouldn't the higher alcohol content tend to give you lower SG's.
Therefor your SG's would represent an increase due to the remaining sugar
and a decrease due to the higher alcohol content which would tend to
balance each other out for the overall SG, I think.

RBE


These are my opinions and/or questions, and not necessarily the opinions
and/or questions of my work place.

Disclaim, Disclaim, Disclaim....:-)'


Bobby Richardson

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Dec 8, 1993, 9:32:58 PM12/8/93
to
Carl E. Anderson (can...@isr.harvard.edu) wrote:
: Someone asked about using B-BRite, but I accidentally deleted the

: post. But in any case, I've been using B-Brite since I started and
: haven't had any problems with it. It works fast (half-hour minimum) and is
: very good at removing gunk. Rinse it off stuff with cold water.

Ever used Electrosol as a substitute?
--
Bobby Richardson
Atlanta, GA.

PRN...@delphi.com

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Dec 10, 1993, 3:54:29 PM12/10/93
to
I'm new in these parts, don't know if this has been brought up before.
I was introduced to Iodaphore as a sanitizing agent.
It's an industrial sanitizer, common in restaurants, etc.
It does the job in two minutes, is inexpensive and requires no rinsing. If
your brew supply joint doesn't have it, check out local restaurant supply
shops.
I could not imagine going back to B-Brite or bleach solutions that take
30 mins.

Todd
San Jose, CA
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