Don't add Vitamin C (ascorbic acid) to your beer
William Velek
The following web-page reports that Dr. George Fix, Professor of
chemistry at the Univ. of Texas, has determined that Vitamin C (ascorbic
acid) will not act as an anti-oxidant in beer, and can cause some very
bad flavors by reacting with the yeast:
http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm
This is an interesting site with a lot of information. I'm getting into
winemaking now, and have found a lot of info on wine, too.
Cheers. Bill Velek
Dr H
I've only used it in some of my lighter brews, at a rate of about 1/2
teaspoon per 5-gallons. I can't say if it worked as an anti-oxidant or
not, but it didn't seem to have any effect on the flavor, whatsoever.
Dr H
Pierre Jelenc
William Velek <ve...@cyberback.com> writes:
> The following web-page reports that Dr. George Fix, Professor of
> chemistry at the Univ. of Texas, has determined that Vitamin C (ascorbic
> acid) will not act as an anti-oxidant in beer, and can cause some very
> bad flavors by reacting with the yeast:
>
> http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm
"Neither a low pH condition nor the presence of SO2 is advisable for any
form of beer."
SO2, granted, but a low pH? A low pH is touted as one of the reasons why
beer is not easily invaded by bacterial contaminants.
Dare I mention Rodenbach?
Pierre
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William Velek
Pierre Jelenc wrote:
snip
> A low pH is touted as one of the reasons why
> beer is not easily invaded by bacterial contaminants.
Okay, I'm not the chemist -- Dr. Fix is. I have no idea whether beer has, or
should have, a high or a low ph. Maybe Dr. Fix doesn't know anything about
beer. I was just referring folks to what I read, and I don't have the
faintest idea of who is right and who is wrong -- but I'd sure like to know
what is correct if it will help me make better beer. So, is this person that
you mention -- Rodenbach -- a chemist? I presume s/he is an authority on
beer. In any event, aside from ph, is the absence of SO2 alone enough of a
reason to incapacitate ascorbic acid as an anti-oxidant? In other words,
should I stop adding vitamin-C to my beer?
Cheers. Bill Velek
Unknown
rc...@panix.com (Pierre Jelenc) wrote:
>
>"Neither a low pH condition nor the presence of SO2 is advisable for any
>form of beer."
>
>SO2, granted, but a low pH? A low pH is touted as one of the reasons why
>beer is not easily invaded by bacterial contaminants.
>
>Dare I mention Rodenbach?
>
>Pierre
Depends on what Fix meant by low. 4-6 might not be low to him. Maybe
he is talking 1-2.
Mike Uchima
Pierre Jelenc wrote:
>
> William Velek <ve...@cyberback.com> writes:
> > The following web-page reports that Dr. George Fix, Professor of
> > chemistry at the Univ. of Texas, has determined that Vitamin C (ascorbic
> > acid) will not act as an anti-oxidant in beer, and can cause some very
> > bad flavors by reacting with the yeast:
> >
> > http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm
>
> form of beer."
>
> SO2, granted, but a low pH? A low pH is touted as one of the reasons why
> beer is not easily invaded by bacterial contaminants.
>
> Dare I mention Rodenbach?
Ok, so maybe the above quote should be ammended to read "...any form of
beer, except Rodenbach"? :-)
Hey, I *like* Rodenbach... have even toyed with the idea of trying to
brew something like it... but most brewers would probably have a cow if
their beer came out tasting even *remotely* like that. Intentional
lactobacillus infections are a bit of an acquired taste! :-)
--
== Mike Uchima == uch...@mcs.net ==
Varady
William Velek wrote:
> So, is this person that you mention -- Rodenbach -- a chemist?
Sorry Bill, but this got me laughing!
--
John Varady http://www.netaxs.com/~vectorsys/varady
Boneyard Brewing The HomeBrew Recipe Calculating Program
Glenside, PA rus...@usa.net
Pierre Jelenc
PKeeler <> writes:
>
> Depends on what Fix meant by low. 4-6 might not be low to him. Maybe
> he is talking 1-2.
Still does not make much sense. Ascorbic acid is a stronger reducing agent
at *higher* pH. A pure ascorbic acid solution is quite stable, while the
same as sodium ascorbate oxidizes readily in contact with the air.
I think that there's something missing in the quote. Oh, and the web site
in question (http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm) calls George
Fix a professor of *chemistry*. Not a sign of care and accuracy.
Sheena McGrath
George Fix, a professor of mathematics (not chemistry, although I can
see where the mistake might come from, since he rarely discusses math
with brew-heads) is mainly interested in German lager-type beers, where
the sort of acidity (low ph) that one finds in Rodenbach (a Flanders
Brown, deliberately acidified and aged beer) would be out of place.
I have never understood why anyone put Vitamin C in their beer, rather
than in themselves. Properly handled beer shouldn't oxidate all that
quickly, and I can't see it doing anything for the taste.
Perhaps you should ask at the Homebrew Digest, where they love that sort
of thing.
Sheena
jd
HEY, I know, lets all beat around the bush and argue over technicalites and
not answer the original question posed.. which after all the laughing,
qouting and correcting seems to be lost somewhere in this thread.....(how
annoying) So here goes my shot at it..
1) Ascorbic Acid is widely used in canning and other types of homemade
foodstuff as a preservative/antioxidant.
2) The reason it is used is because it is supposed to help preserve flavor
by _GUESS_ preventing oxidation. Now what is the numero uno enemy of fresh
beer?
I have used it, and I have noticed favorable results.. It does help to
prevent oxidation in the REAL world.. IMHOP, as to how or why, well, im not
that edumicated like all of you all folks so I just duno. I just know that
it seems to prevent oxidation, with no other apparent impact on flavor or
fermentation, and it is widely available to the homebrewer at homebrew shops
everywhere.... for some reason?!? Who knows maybe its just some sort of
government scam to make all of us homebrewers get more vitamin C, Just like
that communist plot to Floridate drinking water..
While there is no substitute for sound process, If adding this stuff stops
you from worrying about oxidation, then by all means, DO IT! I have played
around with it, and I have noticed some positive results.. Of course I
havent analyzed my beer with any of them thar fancy meters that sum of yall
have access too...and I aint be havin no big ol PHD from one o them thar
fancy universaties, Its just my observation......
William Velek
Sheena McGrath wrote:
> George Fix, a professor of mathematics (not chemistry, although I can
> see where the mistake might come from ... snip
The mistake came from http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm which
specifically says that Dr. Fix is a professor of chemistry.
> I have never understood why anyone put Vitamin C in their beer
snip
This allows me to justify to my wife why I need another beer -- for more
Vitamin C ;-)
Cheers. Bill Velek
Dr H
On Tue, 13 Jan 1998, William Velek wrote:
}Pierre Jelenc wrote:
}
}snip
}
}> A low pH is touted as one of the reasons why
}> beer is not easily invaded by bacterial contaminants.
}
}Okay, I'm not the chemist -- Dr. Fix is. I have no idea whether beer has, or
}should have, a high or a low ph. Maybe Dr. Fix doesn't know anything about
}beer. I was just referring folks to what I read, and I don't have the
}faintest idea of who is right and who is wrong -- but I'd sure like to know
}what is correct if it will help me make better beer. So, is this person that
}you mention -- Rodenbach -- a chemist? I presume s/he is an authority on
}beer. In any event, aside from ph, is the absence of SO2 alone enough of a
}reason to incapacitate ascorbic acid as an anti-oxidant? In other words,
}should I stop adding vitamin-C to my beer?
}
}Cheers. Bill Velek
Actually George Fix is a Math professor, not a chemist.
I assume the statement about Rodenbach as a chemist is a jest.
I still am unsure as to what nasty effects 1/2 teaspoon of ascorbic acid
will have in 5 gallons of beer -- especially since I've never noticed
any effect on the taste, whatsoever.
Dr H
Bob Hendriksen
William Velek wrote in message <34BE21B1...@cyberback.com>...
>snip
>
>This allows me to justify to my wife why I need another beer -- for more
>Vitamin C ;-)
>
>Cheers. Bill Velek
...aha!...that's a good one, Billy - but tell us, does she believe you?...
:)
--
Bob Hendriksen
Barking Mice Brewery
bhen...@webspan.net
King...@aol.com
"I'm on the Information Highway to Hell"
Pierre Jelenc
Mike Uchima <uch...@mcs.net> writes:
>
> Ok, so maybe the above quote should be ammended to read "...any form of
> beer, except Rodenbach"? :-)
Or Gueuze, or Berliner Weisse, at least. And there's one sour African beer
as well (Southern Africa, IIRC).
Dr H
The original poster claimed that not only didn't ascorbic acid prevent
oxidation in beer, but that it could also have "nasty" effects.
I suspend judgement on the oxidation question, but I'm still waiting to
hear what these alleged "nasty" effects are supposed to be.
Dr H
William Velek
Michael STEWART wrote:
snip
> Actually he's [referring to Dr. Fix] a mathematician with a serious brewing chemistry
> hobby.
> He's in the dept. of mathematics at the University of Texas, Arlington.
Okay. According to Spagnols web-site -- http://www.spagnols.com/handouts/wits-beer.htm
--Dr. Fix is Professor of Chemistry at the University of Texas at Arlington, so I just
assumed that he is a chemist -- but since that is Texas it makes sense that they would have
someone other than a chemist teaching chemistry.
This reminds me of the two professors from Texas A & M (Aggies) who were fishing and had
found a good spot out on the lake. One said "How are we going to find this place again?"
The other pondered a minute and then said, "I have a piece of chalk; let's mark the side of
the boat, right over this spot, with a big 'X'". When they got back to the dock, the other
said, "Okay, genius, now how are we going to be sure that we get the same boat tomorrow".
Whereupon the first one said "Simple, we'll just put a big 'X' on the other side of the
boat!"
snip
> In the book Fix's gripe against vitamin-C is that it is very
> ineffective as an antioxidant: it takes a lot to have any effect at
> all on the oxidation of isohumulones and it is completely ineffective
> in helping the oxidation of alcohols. (The latter is what produces
> cardboard flavors.)
snip
Did you just say that the oxidation of alcohols produces cardboard flavors? What causes the
cardboard flavors from hot-side aeration? Either you are incorrect about the alcohol or
there is a second substance that also causes a cardboard flavor when oxidized, because there
is no alcohol in the wort when hot-side aeration can occur.
Cheers. Bill Velek
Sheena McGrath
> Did you just say that the oxidation of alcohols produces cardboard flavors? What causes the
> cardboard flavors from hot-side aeration? Either you are incorrect about the alcohol or
> there is a second substance that also causes a cardboard flavor when oxidized, because there
> is no alcohol in the wort when hot-side aeration can occur.
>
> Cheers. Bill Velek
Dear Bill:
Yes, there is more than one kind of oxidation. In fact, oxidation
generally is bad, which is why people use anti-rust compounds and take
pills to keep bad oxygen out of their bodies. (I wonder if there is
human hot-side aeration, leading to higher mortality and illness in the
tropics?) Oxidation can affect the mash, the wort, and the beer.
Sheena
Edwin
>take pills to keep bad oxygen out of their bodies.
What is 'bad' Oxygen?
Ever tried to do without oxygen?
I'm Edwin