Irish moss: Dosage? Re-hydrate or not?

[Joerg]

Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on the web
is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon
batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated a few hours
before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.

Currently I brew 5-gallon batches (mostly) from extract but over the
course of this year might start BIAB, also 5-gallons.

What do thee say?

--
Regards, Joerg

http://www.analogconsultants.com/

[Tom Biasi]

On 2/13/2017 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
> Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
> secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on the web
> is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon
> batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated a few hours
> before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.
>
> Currently I brew 5-gallon batches (mostly) from extract but over the
> course of this year might start BIAB, also 5-gallons.
>
> What do thee say?
>

It's job is to allow the large molecules of protein (mostly) to
agglomerate and fall out of suspension.
It's usually added the last 15 to 20 minutes of the boil.
The amounts that you list are within reason.
Some say re-hydrate others don't bother.
In will be re-hydrated in short time after you throw it in.

[Scott Alfter]

In article <egekdg...@mid.individual.net>,

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
>secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on the web
>is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon
>batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated a few hours
>before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.

I rehydrate a teaspoon in maybe a half-cup of water at the start of the
boil, and then add it to the boil 10 minutes or so before the end. That's
worked well enough for me.

_/_
/ v \ Scott Alfter (remove the obvious to send mail)
(IIGS( https://alfter.us/ Top-posting!
\_^_/ >What's the most annoying thing on Usenet?

[Joerg]

On 2017-02-13 14:10, Scott Alfter wrote:
> In article <egekdg...@mid.individual.net>,
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>> Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
>> secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on the web
>> is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon per 5-gallon
>> batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated a few hours
>> before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.
>
> I rehydrate a teaspoon in maybe a half-cup of water at the start of the
> boil, and then add it to the boil 10 minutes or so before the end. That's
> worked well enough for me.
>

Ok, I'll do that next time, on Thursday. It's not big deal to do. So far
I did it like Tom describe, just scooped out a teaspoon and threw that
in 15 mins before end of boil and stirred.

[Joerg]

Thanks. Next time I'll try re-hydration like Scott does. Just to try it
out. I'll stay with 1 teaspoon then.

Thursday will also be the first time I'll add clover honey. 1-1/2lbs
each to a 5-gal batch of Wheat Beer and in the afternoon to a Stout. As
recommended here in the group right after the end of boil. Both with
fresh yeast instead of harvested, to be on the safe side.

[baloonon]

I use this stuff:

http://www.northernbrewer.com/supermoss-hb

It's a powdered version of Irish Moss. I got it because it's
concentrated and compact -- the container I have seems like it will last
forever.

In this thread on various products, there's a guy who says he was
involved in the development of Super Moss and did a lot of testing, and
the products generally work best when rehydrated.

http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=87785

To be honest I just toss mine in straight to the boil, but then I don't
usually pay close attention to clarity in my beer. For me I feel that
since a dose is a fraction of a cent per bottle, I may as well use it.

I started using Campden tablets for the same reason -- they're cheap,
they can't hurt, and even though I didn't notice anything particularly
wrong when I didn't use them, I figured I may as well.

[Joerg]

On 2017-02-13 16:41, baloonon wrote:
> Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote:
>
>> On 2/13/2017 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
>
>>> Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
>>> secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on
>>> the web is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon
>>> per 5-gallon batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated
>>> a few hours before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.
>>>
>>> Currently I brew 5-gallon batches (mostly) from extract but over the
>>> course of this year might start BIAB, also 5-gallons.
>>>
>>> What do thee say?
>>>
>> It's job is to allow the large molecules of protein (mostly) to
>> agglomerate and fall out of suspension.
>> It's usually added the last 15 to 20 minutes of the boil.
>> The amounts that you list are within reason.
>> Some say re-hydrate others don't bother.
>> In will be re-hydrated in short time after you throw it in.
>
> I use this stuff:
>
> http://www.northernbrewer.com/supermoss-hb
>
> It's a powdered version of Irish Moss. I got it because it's
> concentrated and compact -- the container I have seems like it will last
> forever.
>

It sure is big but the reviews are not stellar.

> In this thread on various products, there's a guy who says he was
> involved in the development of Super Moss and did a lot of testing, and
> the products generally work best when rehydrated.
>
> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=87785
>

Wow, even moss tablets. I didnt' know they existed.

> To be honest I just toss mine in straight to the boil, but then I don't
> usually pay close attention to clarity in my beer. For me I feel that
> since a dose is a fraction of a cent per bottle, I may as well use it.
>
> I started using Campden tablets for the same reason -- they're cheap,
> they can't hurt, and even though I didn't notice anything particularly
> wrong when I didn't use them, I figured I may as well.
>

One thing I still have to figure out is whether the carrageenan has any
bad health effects. We use the trub from primary fermentation to make
bread after I've siphoned off some to snatch enough yeast for the next
batch. I assume most of the Irish moss ends up in the sludge at the
bottom of the brew kettle which we discard.

[baloonon]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

> On 2017-02-13 16:41, baloonon wrote:

>> Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote:
>>
>>> On 2/13/2017 3:48 PM, Joerg wrote:
>>
>>>> Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
>>>> secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on
>>>> the web is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon
>>>> per 5-gallon batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated
>>>> a few hours before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.
>>>>
>>>> Currently I brew 5-gallon batches (mostly) from extract but
>>>> over the course of this year might start BIAB, also 5-gallons.
>>>>
>>>> What do thee say?
>>>>
>>> It's job is to allow the large molecules of protein (mostly) to
>>> agglomerate and fall out of suspension.
>>> It's usually added the last 15 to 20 minutes of the boil.
>>> The amounts that you list are within reason.
>>> Some say re-hydrate others don't bother.
>>> In will be re-hydrated in short time after you throw it in.
>>
>> I use this stuff:
>>
>> http://www.northernbrewer.com/supermoss-hb
>>
>> It's a powdered version of Irish Moss. I got it because it's
>> concentrated and compact -- the container I have seems like it
>> will last forever.
>
> It sure is big but the reviews are not stellar.

I get the sense it works best when you rehydrate, which to be honest I'm
lazy about. I'm also not super hardcore about the timing. I seem to
recall different levels of coagulation, which probably has something to do
with my slipshod methods. I sort of have the attitude if nothing is
reaching of the beer and slapping you, it's clear enough, but I realize I
may be on the extreme end of things.

>> In this thread on various products, there's a guy who says he was
>> involved in the development of Super Moss and did a lot of
>> testing, and the products generally work best when rehydrated.
>>
>> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=87785
>

> One thing I still have to figure out is whether the carrageenan
> has any
> bad health effects. We use the trub from primary fermentation to make
> bread after I've siphoned off some to snatch enough yeast for the next
> batch. I assume most of the Irish moss ends up in the sludge at the
> bottom of the brew kettle which we discard.

It should pretty much go to the bottom of the brew kettle and the amount in
brewing is pretty small to begin with. Wikipedia notes some potential
health concerns but I suspect they're not an issue for most people -- there
is possibly a concern with inflammation but considering how incredibly
common it is, I doubt it's something worth worrying about for most people.

But if there's any doubt, I'd say just skip it. There are enough
theoretical health issues with beer in general. Hipsters love hazy beer
anyway, so it's always possible to claim if there's haze it's on purpose.

[Joerg]

That's also always the question with reviews. You never know what
exactly the folks did who posted there.

>>> In this thread on various products, there's a guy who says he was
>>> involved in the development of Super Moss and did a lot of
>>> testing, and the products generally work best when rehydrated.
>>>
>>> http://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=87785
>>
>> One thing I still have to figure out is whether the carrageenan
>> has any
>> bad health effects. We use the trub from primary fermentation to make
>> bread after I've siphoned off some to snatch enough yeast for the next
>> batch. I assume most of the Irish moss ends up in the sludge at the
>> bottom of the brew kettle which we discard.
>
> It should pretty much go to the bottom of the brew kettle and the amount in
> brewing is pretty small to begin with. Wikipedia notes some potential
> health concerns but I suspect they're not an issue for most people -- there
> is possibly a concern with inflammation but considering how incredibly
> common it is, I doubt it's something worth worrying about for most people.
>
> But if there's any doubt, I'd say just skip it. There are enough
> theoretical health issues with beer in general. Hipsters love hazy beer
> anyway, so it's always possible to claim if there's haze it's on purpose.
>

Right now haze is "in" in Northern California.

I just bottled a Koelsch and a Cascadian Dark Ale. The Cascadian was
dry-hopped in secondary and a lot of "fluff" made it into the bottling
bucket. The last bottle got a lot of the hop flakes so I marked it in a
way that I never give that one away but drink it myself. It also clogged
up the bottling wand. Got to fashion some sort of sieve that goes on the
inside of the spigot in the bottling bucket.

Go to run downstairs again and transfer a Cream Ale and an Autumn Amber
to secondary. Fermenters rarely get a break here. On Thursday the
primaries will be full again, a Wheat Beer and a Stout, both
honey-modified this time.

[Tom Biasi]

How much more hydrated will it be 2 minutes after entering boiling wort.

[baloonon]

Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote

> I just bottled a Koelsch and a Cascadian Dark Ale. The Cascadian was
> dry-hopped in secondary and a lot of "fluff" made it into the bottling
> bucket. The last bottle got a lot of the hop flakes so I marked it in
> a way that I never give that one away but drink it myself. It also
> clogged up the bottling wand. Got to fashion some sort of sieve that
> goes on the inside of the spigot in the bottling bucket.

You can put your hops in a sanitized paint strainer bag and pull it when
you transfer to your bottling bucket. I think some people throw a few
sanitized marbles or a piece of broken china with sanded edges as a weight
to keep it submerged, although I find it sinks pretty well once the hops
get soaked.

I just finished the last bottles of a stout that I fined with gelatin for
some dumb reason a few months ago. There isn't much reason to go for extra
clarity in something that dark, but I did it -- can't remember what got
into me. Somehow I got gelatin in the bottling bucket and then got some
blobs into a few of the bottles. It's no fun polishing off a glass only to
get some tapioca-like bits in your mouth. I'd never had that happen before
-- I must have done a bad job dissolving the gelatin that time around.

[baloonon]

Tom Biasi <tomb...@optonline.net> wrote :

> On 2/13/2017 5:10 PM, Scott Alfter wrote:

>> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:

>>> Trying to achieve even more clarity than can be achieved by using
>>> secondary plus careful racking I tried Irish moss. The info on the
>>> web is confusing. I found dosage suggestions from 1/4 teaspoon per
>>> 5-gallon batch to 1 teaspoon. Some say it should be re-hydrated a
>>> few hours before it's needed, otehrs say it doesn't matter.
>>
>> I rehydrate a teaspoon in maybe a half-cup of water at the start of
>> the boil, and then add it to the boil 10 minutes or so before the
>> end. That's worked well enough for me.

> How much more hydrated will it be 2 minutes after entering boiling
> wort.

I don't know if the two substances operate the same way, but gelatin
tends to dissolve better if it's allowed to soak in room temperature
water before heating.

< http://drinks.seriouseats.com/2014/02/cocktail-science-jello-shots-
gelatin-solid-how-much-vodka-how-jello-shots-work.html >

It says:

"To make strong gels, you're going to need every ounce of gelling power
in your gelatin. Powdered gelatin comes comes in tiny granules that have
to be filled with water before their polymers and colloids will spread
out and cross-link into a gel. To hydrate gelatin, first let it sit in
some warm water until you have a slurry. This first step ensures that no
dry gelatin gets trapped within a protective outer bubble of hydrated
gelatin. Then heat the slurry until the whole thing turns into a thick
liquid of even consistency."

It also notes:

"Yes, if you boil the gelatin in water for enough time, it will
eventually hydrate and you can skip the slurry step."

So the issue may be that Irish Moss operates in a similar manner as
gelatin and works more effectively if it's hydrated before boiling. Or
of course it's possible they're two different things and I'm following a
false lead.

It's not clear to me whether there's an argument for just boiling it
longer to get it fully hydrated. I've read that long boiling can reduce
the effectiveness of Irish Moss, but the chemistry cited is beyond my
ability to judge.

Then again, this is an experiment that suggests Irish Moss has a very
limited effect:

< http://brulosophy.com/2015/03/16/the-irish-moss-effect-exbeeriment-
results/ >

It's only a single example, though, so it's just a starting point for
debate.

[Tom Biasi]

Irish moss and gelatin do not work the same.
It's really not worth all the stress, hydrate or not if you like, some
recipes don't respond to Irish moss anyway.

[Joerg]

On 2017-02-14 19:19, baloonon wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote
>
>> I just bottled a Koelsch and a Cascadian Dark Ale. The Cascadian was
>> dry-hopped in secondary and a lot of "fluff" made it into the bottling
>> bucket. The last bottle got a lot of the hop flakes so I marked it in
>> a way that I never give that one away but drink it myself. It also
>> clogged up the bottling wand. Got to fashion some sort of sieve that
>> goes on the inside of the spigot in the bottling bucket.
>
> You can put your hops in a sanitized paint strainer bag and pull it when
> you transfer to your bottling bucket. I think some people throw a few
> sanitized marbles or a piece of broken china with sanded edges as a weight
> to keep it submerged, although I find it sinks pretty well once the hops
> get soaked.
>

That is a good idea. I have lots of mulsin bags left over from kits
because I kept re-using them. Hopefully it'll come back out. I use
5-gallon water cooler bottles for secondary and they have a sharp
inward-facing lip at the neck. Not the smooth neck of a glass carboy.

> I just finished the last bottles of a stout that I fined with gelatin for
> some dumb reason a few months ago. There isn't much reason to go for extra
> clarity in something that dark, but I did it -- can't remember what got
> into me. Somehow I got gelatin in the bottling bucket and then got some
> blobs into a few of the bottles. It's no fun polishing off a glass only to
> get some tapioca-like bits in your mouth. I'd never had that happen before
> -- I must have done a bad job dissolving the gelatin that time around.
>

Having grown up in Europe I am leery of gelatin. Mad cow disease and all
that. I'll stick with Irish moss for now. Whatever negative side effects
carrageenan might have I just assume that the positive health aspects of
beer outweigh that :-)

[baloonon]

I think gelatin manufacturers are very careful, although the US food
regulatory system may be hit with some major changes shortly, and not
likely to be in the direction of more stringent standards.

There's also Isinglass, which is powdered fish swim bladders. I don't
think there are any horrible prions that have ever been associated with
that.

There's Polyclar plastic powder out there which works on a similar
principle as gelatin by using a difference in charge to attract
particles and fall to the sediment. I've always been a little leery
about it, although supposedly a decent job transferring doesn't carry it
into the bottling bucket, and truthfully we can't avoid a little plastic
in our diets, for better or worse.

And then there's Clarity Ferm, which uses an enzyme to clear the beer,
but it's a bit pricey, around $4-5 per batch.

Cold crashing usually goes a long way by itself, and that's sometimes
all I bother with. Or not even that, other times.

[Joerg]

On 2017-02-15 11:52, baloonon wrote:
> Joerg <ne...@analogconsultants.com> wrote:
>
>> On 2017-02-14 19:19, baloonon wrote:
>
>>> I just finished the last bottles of a stout that I fined with gelatin
>>> for some dumb reason a few months ago. There isn't much reason to go
>>> for extra clarity in something that dark, but I did it -- can't
>>> remember what got into me. Somehow I got gelatin in the bottling
>>> bucket and then got some blobs into a few of the bottles. It's no
>>> fun polishing off a glass only to get some tapioca-like bits in your
>>> mouth. I'd never had that happen before -- I must have done a bad
>>> job dissolving the gelatin that time around.
>>
>> Having grown up in Europe I am leery of gelatin. Mad cow disease and
>> all that. I'll stick with Irish moss for now. Whatever negative side
>> effects carrageenan might have I just assume that the positive health
>> aspects of beer outweigh that :-)
>
> I think gelatin manufacturers are very careful, although the US food
> regulatory system may be hit with some major changes shortly, and not
> likely to be in the direction of more stringent standards.
>
> There's also Isinglass, which is powdered fish swim bladders. I don't
> think there are any horrible prions that have ever been associated with
> that.
>

That depends on where that fish was hanging out :-)

> There's Polyclar plastic powder out there which works on a similar
> principle as gelatin by using a difference in charge to attract
> particles and fall to the sediment. I've always been a little leery
> about it, although supposedly a decent job transferring doesn't carry it
> into the bottling bucket, and truthfully we can't avoid a little plastic
> in our diets, for better or worse.
>
> And then there's Clarity Ferm, which uses an enzyme to clear the beer,
> but it's a bit pricey, around $4-5 per batch.
>
> Cold crashing usually goes a long way by itself, and that's sometimes
> all I bother with. Or not even that, other times.
>

I don't bother about clarity too much either. The only thing that irks
me at times is that some beers such as Pale Ale have a tendency to spill
bottle yeast into the glass no matter how carefully I pour. The Belgian
Tripel and others don't do that.

Just came up from the basement. I brewed an American Wheat this morning
and a Stout in the afternoon. Both with added honey. With the Wheat the
gravity is still only 1.047 but the Stout clocked in at mouth-watering
1.057. The Stout fermenter is also kind of full and I hope it won't go
nuclear on me like the Belgian Tripel did. Since my beer fridge ain't
ready yet it sits on the carpet and that would land me in the dog house.