a question for lager experts...
Scott111
haven't found what I'm looking for yet. I just finished building a
fermenter with very accurate temperature control. Without bogging
down too much with details, my PC monitors the temp and cools or heats
the carboy according to whatever temperature profile I program it to,
within +/- 0.1 C. I guess I'm more of a tinkerer/engineer than a
brewer since I've never even done a lager yet, but I need to know more
about temp profiles for lagers.
Specifically, I want to know what temperatures to hold at and for how
long, and how fast to change the temp. So far I've read that diacetyl
rest is good to hold at room temp for a day and then come back down.
But I've also read that it's not good to change the temp more than 8
deg F per day. This could mean that for a temp rest of one day I may
spend several days ramping the temp up and then down again. Is this
right? So for I'm currently getting a starter of Wyeast Czech Pils
going. Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
10 days at 50 F
ramp up to 70 F at 8 F / day, hold for a day
ramp down to 40 F at 8 F / day, hold for 2 weeks
I am a big fan of the trial and error approach, but could someone
recommend more detailed temp profile for a) the Czech pils yeast, b)
lager yeasts in general, and c) I can use the accurate temp control to
perfect my ales too, but how? Please help me to use and not abuse my
new power!
D Schultz
lot of sulfur via H2S but that will lager away. I've never heard anything
about a ramp temp for going up to the diacetyl rest so I wouldn't worry
about ramping up. Yeast love higher temps. You won't lose any viability by
just switching to a 65°F diacetyl rest.
On the ramp down, I've read 4 and 5°F ramps but not the 8°F. The idea is to
keep the yeast as active as possible so that they can do what their supoosed
to at the lower temps. Crash cooling has a tendency to shock the yeast.
While all the literature says to lager at close to freezing, I doubt that
any of the caves and cellars were ever that cold so if your fridge can't hit
32°F just lager a little longer. Very few beers are lagered longer than 30
days by the craft breweries today (they use the low 30°F's for a lagering
temp)
They big key to lagers is to pitch a lot of yeast.
Your temp controlled fridge will provide many benefts to yours ales as well.
Ale yeasts can change a lot by what temp they ferment at. I know a very
good local craft brewer that uses 1968 exclusively for his ales by just
adjusting the fermentation temp to achieve anything from a clean beer to a
nice a fruity beer. My experiences are similar with the wheat beer yeasts.
In addition to the flavor profile of an ale yeast, you can use your fridge
to do short lagering or cold stabilation. This will clear the beer
tremndously by eliminating the chill haze that's typical of homebrew. I
don't bat an eye at a homebrew that has chill haze but a brilliant cold
homebrew is just that much more to enjoy.
Burp,
-Dan
"Scott111" <scott_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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>snip<
Scott Sallin
> long, and how fast to change the temp. So far I've read that diacetyl
> rest is good to hold at room temp for a day and then come back down.
> But I've also read that it's not good to change the temp more than 8
> deg F per day. This could mean that for a temp rest of one day I may
> spend several days ramping the temp up and then down again. Is this
> right? So for I'm currently getting a starter of Wyeast Czech Pils
> going. Here's what I'm thinking of doing:
>
> 10 days at 50 F
> ramp up to 70 F at 8 F / day, hold for a day
> ramp down to 40 F at 8 F / day, hold for 2 weeks
I think you can take a simple approach even with a fancy controller. I have
done many lagers (pilsner, Octoberfest, Dortmunder, Munich Helles and Darks,
Maibock, Doublebock, etc.) Depending on the yeast strain and your starter
volume, aeration, and pitching temp, you may or may not need a diacetyl rest
at all.
Wyeast's website gives the following info:
2278 Czech Pils yeast- Classic pilsner strain from the home of pilsners for
a dry, but malty finish. The perfect choice for pilsners and bock beers.
Sulfur produced during fermentation dissipates with conditioning.
Flocculation medium to high; apparent attenuation 70-74%. (48-58o F)
This yeast, in my experience witll not produce much diacetyl (sulfur is more
of a problem). I would get a large starter (up to 2L for a 5 gallon batch)
into fermentation temps (lower end of the spectrum tends to give smoother
flavors). For example, with a magentic stir plate, you could get a good
yeast cell count by fermenting your starter at 50F. Cool the wort to this
temp and pitch the yeast and aerate well (I use a SS stone and a sterile
filter and about 20 PSI from my air compressor for ~15 minutes).
The following info is from Gregory Noonan's "New Brewing Lager Beer" mixed
with some of my own experiental data. Noonan's in quotes.
Ferment at this temp until krausen begins to fall (Noonan 6-14 days), but
may be 10-21 days depending on many factors (see above). "If a diacetyl
rest is to be employed, force the post-krausen ferment to rise to 55-60 F.
After two days, lower the ambient temp again, bringing the beer to 38 to 40
degrees at 3-5 F per day". I have never done this.
Check the SG and rack to secondary. "If the hydrometer reading is 1/3 the
density of the original or greater, ferment for 7-21 days, reducing the
ambient temp from 38-40 F down to 33-37 F when CO2 production falls off
(watch the airlock). If the reading is much less than 1/3 of original
hydrometer reading, then the beer lacks slowly fermenting dextrins and
should nearly ferment out in 7-10 days before the temps are reduced for
lagering."
"Lager tradition calls for 7-12 days of secondary fermentation per each 2
deg plato (1.008 SG) of the original wort hydrometer reading, with the beer
falling as close to 33-36 F as possible... if the hydrometer reading at
racking was much less than 1/3 of original hydrometer reading, the beer
should not be secondary fermented/ lagered for more than one week for each 2
deg plato of the original wort reading; 4-5 days per deg Plato is usual.
Lowering the temp to 30-33 F immediately after secondary fermentation
reduces lagering times."
For example, my last pils, brewed on 9/29/01, was a 10 gallon batch, split
into 2- 5 gallon carboys, with Budvar and Gambrinus pils yeasts (1.8L
starters each). I had an OG of 1.058 and fermented at 48 F (the low end of
the range for these yeasts) for 21 days. The SG's at racking were 1.014
and 1.017 respectively. Secondary was 37 F for a month each (SG's 1.012 and
1.015 respectively. Since then I have lagered at 33-35 F. The beers get
better with lagering up to 12- 18 months depending on recipe. Often times
they do not last this long into lagering before being consumed :-(
Noonan's book is a great resource for lagering. His procedures may be a
little technical for a beginning lager brewer, but you can always modify as
needed. The difference in secondary/ lagering schedule for beers with < or
> 1/3 SG of original wort hydrometer reading is something I have used
consistently since reading his book.
Email me with any questions.
Scott
jpstod
Most modern brewers will do the final lagering near 32*F .
Sounds like you got a routine your happy with. Try and see if your Happy
with the results , if not tweak the temperatures for longer or shorter times
heres how I do it..
Pitch yeast near 70*F
leave out about an Hour till I see good fermentation
Place Fermenter in Fridge with controller set at 45*F
Forget about it for about 2 weeks at least
Transfer to secondary and set controller to 65*F for about 2 to 7 days
Lower controller back down to 45*F and forget for another 3 to 4 weeks.
Rack to Keg and forget for 6 months under pressure..
I have a low end controller and I get a temperature swing of +/- 5 degrees
before it kicks in and I also have the fridge set where the natural
temperature swing effects the warming and cooling. I bought an indoor
outdoor thermometer and check the temps occasionally and I have actually a
swing of +/- 15 degrees showing on it.
Keep in mind temperature controllers measure the ambient air temperature and
not the actual temperature of the beer, unless you waterproof your probe and
put it into the fermenter.
George Fix told us at Bluebonnet 2001 that unless you are using a stirring
device in your fermenter that ambient air will have little effect on the
temperature of the beer because the thickness and type of material has
different transfer rates and the wort will put off heat..just like using a
chiller the wort must move around and continually contact the surface of
your fermenter
Just keep in mind brewing is not rocket science unless you want it to be
"Scott111" <scott_...@hotmail.com> wrote in message
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Jon Judson
"George Fix told us at Bluebonnet 2001 that unless you are using a stirring
device in your fermenter that ambient air will have little effect on the
temperature of the beer because the thickness and type of material has
different transfer rates and the wort will put off heat..just like using a
chiller the wort must move around and continually contact the surface of
your fermenter."
While this may be true, the use of a stirrer during early phases of
fermentation is unnecessary due to the natural roiling action of the yeast
activity. During later phases, while the use of a stirrer would certainly
speed cooling along, the volumes being cooled are small enough that the
transfer rate of the container shouldn't slow the process down too much.
Also, since lagering typically takes place at a steady temperature, once
this temperature is reached, the cooling equipment does not need to work too
hard to keep the liquid at the low set temperature -- and the mass of the
liquid works in its favor to keep the temperatures relatively steady.
Kopec, M. (Martin)
for 3-4 years now with good results. I use a spare small refrigerator
with a precise temp controller.
I cool the wart with my immersion chiller to get to the lowest
temperature possible in the shortest amount of time. This usually ends
up being about 65F to 68F. I proceed to pitch the yeast and areate the
wart by shaking the primary vigorously.
I use the recomended temperature for fermentation found on the back of
the yeast packet, and this is what my fridge is set on. Once in the
fridge, I usually achieve the desired temperature in a couple of days.
But this lag in time is ok because a vigorous fermentation is always
achieved.
Now I keep the fermenting beer at the recomended temperature untill
there is no sign of Krausen left. Sometimes it takes a week, sometimes
longer depending on the yeast strain. Most of the lagers that I brew are
diffrent in this timeframe.I have had the primary fermentation end in a
week and three weeks in some. But I always wait for the Krausen to
dissapear completely or almost completely.
Then I proceed to raise the temperature to 60F. 70F is too warm IMO for
the Diacytl rest.
this usually takes a couple of days to achieve this temperature. After a
day or so at 60F I cool it back to the recomended yeast temp. By then Im
assured that the primary fermentation is complete so I transfer the beer
into a secondary tank for the lagering process.
Once in the secondary vessel I drop the temperature by 2F a day untill a
temperature of about 33F-35F is achieved. Then the beer is left at this
temperature for approximately 30 days. then I transfer the beer into my
5 gal keg to be carbonated and drank :P
When bottling I used to keep the beer in the secondary for about a week,
then bottled, and then the bottles stored at the lagering
temperature(33F-35F) for 3 weeks. And then one week at 60F to make sure
the beer was carbonated.
rob
<jps...@wf.quik.com> wrote:
> Transfer to secondary and set controller to 65*F for about 2 to 7 days
What determines whether you let it sit for 2 or 7 days?
jpstod
it
"rob" <robuse...@hairydogbrewery.com> wrote in message
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