OT and Right on topic! What is pretty... what is art...
Harry
to your favorite reading spot to read.
Starlia's recent episode has prompted me to write this and has awaken something in me that I though was dead many years
ago. What is pretty? What is art? For me... art is what I think is pretty or what I find appealing to me! Is there a
rule that one has to follow to be an artist? Is there a rule that makes an item or items art? Who has the right to tell
anyone what is or isn't art? Who has the right to tell anyone what is or isn't pretty? Is there a final answer that
says: This is art? I don't believe so! God bless England and that beautiful person who figured out they have a right
brain and a left brain! Huh? Yes one person finally told them self one day that she was different and she had two
brains! How did she know and what did she do? She decide that her left brain loved orange hair and her right brain loved
blue! And she colored her hair to please herself and did not care who liked or disliked it! Thank God! The same is true
with everything else on this tiny planet. Everyone..., (almost everyone), wants everything to be exact and perfect.
Guess what??? It doesn't work that way. An example for everyone is: EARS! Yes you have two of them and yes they look
near the same..., BUT..., one is on the left side of your head and the other is on the right side. How would it look if
they were both on one side and identical? Pretty silly wouldn't it? So why in the world do you have to insist on your
earrings being exactly the same... identical? I had this thought this morning and it kind of upset me... I was angry
with me! I tried very hard to get Paua shells piece to match and I can not do it! They are all different and NO two are
the same... ever! So I decided I am not trying no more and that the main reason I love Paua shell is that ALL of the
pieces are different. I love different! I hate things to be identical and exact. If you hate me for it... oh well. :)
Juanita... I LOVE the beads I bought from you almost as much as my shells! Everyone of them are different! No two are
alike...
I love that and I was smiling the whole time I spent making the necklace I did with them in it! It was so much fun
trying to create a BALANCE... not a perfection. Even my shell pieces I placed in the necklace are different sizes,
because it made the necklace balanced... not perfect. I love it and there is another necklace I made.. my very first
one... that I placed on Ebay several times to try and sell it and no one wanted it... until... that one day a beautiful
person placed a bid on it and bought it. That day was the worst day of my life. Everyone around me said it was the
ugliest thing they ever saw! Yes... my family said that! I loved it and it broke my heart and I was going to pull it off
of Ebay and throw it away, but when I tried it was to late. Someone wanted it and I had to send it. I wish I could hold
that person and tell them how I feel that they truly loved it almost or as much as I did. I would wrap my two arms
around her and she would have a hard time getting a breath. Little things make Harry happy. She loved my ugly little
hand made necklace! It took me a very long time to get myself to believe her. She may or may not let herself be known,
but it is OK with me if she chooses not to. She would tell you the countless times I told her to send it back and I
would refund ALL her money, because I was like my family... it was ugly.. you couldn't possible like it. When I mailed
it... I fought hard not to destroy it and tell her that I lost it or the dog ate it. No lies here. I was absolutely
petrified sending her that ugly little necklace. I can still see the wonderful item that I created and sent to a far
away place that I thought it would not find the love it needed. Yes people.. everything that is created needs love.
Everything is alive after it has been created. That's what the word creation means... LIFE! If you have made anything
that you really love.. it's alive.. weather you want it to be or not! Love it... caress it... and if anyone else doesn't
like or wanted it... TOUGH! Art is in the creator and the person that loves it. Art teachers really tick me off! Color
in the lines.. that's not round.. you call that art??? HELL YES I... I... I DO!! I was kicked out of art class because I
colored all my tree trunks black... why black... because I was color blind and the morons never knew till I was in the
7th grade! When I look at a tree... any tree... the bark is black! I love it... it's what I see... don't tell me I am
ugly or what I perceive is ugly!! If you made it... if you like....if you love it... why in the hell should it matter if
anyone else does?
Stepping down now.
Sir Harry the Paua King of Ohio!
My Ebay Auctions are at http://snipurl.com/3okw
Diana Curtis
Got room on that soapbox for a couple more kindred souls?
Diana, singing, love, love, love....
--
Queen of FAQs
Royal Peace Maker
http://photos.yahoo.com/lunamom44
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:as4c30h13ju5khf5g...@4ax.com...
Jalynne
You GO, Harry!!!
--
Jalynne - Keeper of the Quilt for ME club list
Queen Gypsy (snail mail available upon request)
see what i've been up to at www.100megsfree4.com/jalynne
See what DH is up to at http://www.teamintraining.org/participant/kinney-162652
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:as4c30h13ju5khf5g...@4ax.com...
marie
marie~
"For what are we without hope in our hearts..." Bruce Springsteen
Harry
>Right On, Harry!
>Got room on that soapbox for a couple more kindred souls?
>Diana, singing, love, love, love....
<
Thank you and yes there is plenty of room for those who
want to join me in dodging the tomatoes and other items
being tossed. lol
Harry
Harry
>WOOOOHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
>
>You GO, Harry!!!
<
Thank you... I guess you could say this morning was quite an
awakening for me and I hope others will know that it's OK to
be you and it's OK to do what you do. :)
Harry
Harry
Harry
Harry
Ahh.... shucks...(giggle)... thank you.
(looking down twisting my hair and kicking dirt)
Harry
starlia
I am at a loss why you thought your necklace was ugly though. I too thought
it was wonderful!
Debbie B
--
Debbie (New Mexico)
Life is too short
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:as4c30h13ju5khf5g...@4ax.com...
---
Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free.
Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com).
Version: 6.0.592 / Virus Database: 375 - Release Date: 2/18/2004
Harry
>On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 13:29:54 -0500, starlia wrote
>(in message <103ckh9...@corp.supernews.com>):
>
>> No tomato tossing here.
>>
>> I am at a loss why you thought your necklace was ugly though. I too thought
>> it was wonderful!
>>
>>
>
>Hey Harry, was it because of the voices in your head? I thought the necklace
>was lovely, and apparently, so did the buyer.
>
>Tell the voices to shut up.
>
>Kathy N-V
<
Yes... it's those old ghost voices from yesteryear that keep telling me aweful
things and most of the time I beileve them. I will tell them to shut up, but many
times a few slap me. Thank you for your wonderful comment. I thought it was
beautiful also and I know NOW the buyer does also. I do believe... I do believe..
Harry
Christina Peterson
combination of "art"/"vision"/"poetry" and skill using materials, or
craft/artisan skills. It may be pretty or not. It is a well executed
expression of inner vision produces from "what's right in front of you"
vision.
Most people are more interested in craftsmanship than art. In pretty --
something comfortable, not something the triggers too much thought. And
most crafts persons are more interested in variations the innovations --
trying something new, not something unheard of.
In this less lofty definition of art there are indeed some basics. A class
in color is fun, because even if you have the best instincts, you can
sharpen then some more left brained information. While exposure can also
help improve your instincts. Especially if someone is color-blind, a color
class will help make work that more people, especially those who are not
color blind , can appreciate.
There are also ways that the eye "likes to" travel, and thus there are
composition classes, that will help eliminate some things that are
uncomfortable. Or maybe make them uncomfortable on purpose. Some of these
patters are culturally bases, but others seem to be universal.
A part of composition is balance. It can be symetrical, or not, but balance
is very important.
So is there right and wrong in Fine Art? Yes. Is there right and wrong in
art? Yes. Is there right and wrong in pretty? Yes. But mostly there is
variation.
Tina
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:as4c30h13ju5khf5g...@4ax.com...
Harry
>You Go King of Paua!!!!!!
<
Thank you Debbie! :) When am I going to get a chance to steal.. er buy some
of your wonderful items? :) Debbie is a wonderful artist and I will have some of her
stuff soon. :))
Harry
Harry
>OK. This is a sort of standard definition or fine art. Art is a
>combination of "art"/"vision"/"poetry" and skill using materials, or
>craft/artisan skills. It may be pretty or not. It is a well executed
>expression of inner vision produces from "what's right in front of you"
>vision.
So if a person is uneducated/unskilled he/she can not create art. Ok got it.
>Most people are more interested in craftsmanship than art. In pretty --
>something comfortable, not something the triggers too much thought. And
>most crafts persons are more interested in variations the innovations --
>trying something new, not something unheard of.
So don't explore and don't change anything. Don't be different. Ok got it.
>In this less lofty definition of art there are indeed some basics. A class
>in color is fun, because even if you have the best instincts, you can
>sharpen then some more left brained information. While exposure can also
>help improve your instincts. Especially if someone is color-blind, a color
>class will help make work that more people, especially those who are not
>color blind , can appreciate.
So make sure my world is miserable and be sure to please others first. Ok got it.
>There are also ways that the eye "likes to" travel, and thus there are
>composition classes, that will help eliminate some things that are
>uncomfortable. Or maybe make them uncomfortable on purpose. Some of these
>patters are culturally bases, but others seem to be universal.
So what I see is wrong and I need to see what others see. Ok got it.
>A part of composition is balance. It can be symetrical, or not, but balance
>is very important.
>
>So is there right and wrong in Fine Art? Yes. Is there right and wrong in
>art? Yes. Is there right and wrong in pretty? Yes. But mostly there is
>variation.
So it's fine art if the majority of people say so.
One voice defines if it is art.
It's pretty only if I say it is.
I don't see any variations. Ok got it.
Just what the art teacher told me. She was always right and everyone else was wrong.
Art is art. It is not something to be graded.
Picasso draws a bunch of geometric forms.. puts an eye in one.. hand in another.. scatters colors
everywhere... people call it art. An autistic child does the same thing... people call him stupid?
I disagree in your logic and I feel that art, fine or any other is art. By the way... if it isn't "fine" art...
What is it?
Harry
Christina Peterson
I told you there actually are some definitions about what art is. Fine
Arts, like artwork by the Great Masters, Rembrandt, Picaso, Van Gogh, are
defined as great art because they combine technical skill and vision.
Originality, risk taking. A person can be self educated and can learn
skills independantly and create great art. But yes, art requires skill. It
doesn't happen just by accident -- without thought or skill. Especially as
defined by Fine Arts.
And where in the world did you hear me say, don't explore, and don't
change,? What do you think the process of education and learning is if not
exploring and changing and trying new things. And "different" is the vision
and originality that goes with skill that I said is part of art.
What you see is wrong? I don't know, but if you see colors only partway
because you are color blind, your vision is incomplete. If I were unable to
see no colors at all I would probably choose to direct my artistic attention
on form, maybe sculpture, shapes of things like paua pieces, things based on
light and darkvalues. And I'd probably want to educate myself on how my
stuff looks to most people. You don't need to see what others see, but it's
reasonable to want to see how others see what work you do. Isn't that why
we show our work here and share it with others with similar interests,
whether it's art or not.
Very many of the "Great Artists" and musicians too, where not accepted in
their time. Probably most of them made people uncomfortable with their
different ways of seeing, and were thought to do ugly work because of their
works weren't like what was accepted as good art in their day. That's one
of the reasons I didn't say Fine Art or great art is beautiful. It might
not fit the bias of the current culture.
And if you're not talking about fine art/ great art, there are other
definitions.
There is that which is pleasing, and is generally a product of skill and the
ability to make the media do what you want it to do. It's very often pretty.
That's the textbook definition of craftsmanship, but what most of us think
of as art. And I have no problem with that definition of art. Especially
in Western culture where free will is an important part of the process -- as
opposed to some cultures in which it is necessary to use only prescribed
forms.
And there is the meaning of art as self expression, through artistic media
and some level of skill and a degree of attaining communication. Don't
have a problem with that either.
But the same as yelling obscenities or shitting on theAmerican flag is
communication but not good writing or art, I can't just say that because I
put art materials together with a thought in mind that the product is art.
There is discipline, attention and intention in art.
And I differentate between Fine Art which is the definition for the
connessuer (spelled wrong), and simply "art" because art doesn't always have
to attain the lofty standards of the collectors in order to be art.
Tina
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
> So if a person is uneducated/unskilled he/she can not create art. Ok got
it.
> So don't explore and don't change anything. Don't be different. Ok got it.
> So what I see is wrong and I need to see what others see. Ok got it.
> So it's fine art if the majority of people say so.
> One voice defines if it is art.
> It's pretty only if I say it is.
> I don't see any variations. Ok got it.
> Just what the art teacher told me. She was always right and everyone else
was wrong.
> Art is art. It is not something to be graded.
> Picasso draws a bunch of geometric forms.. puts an eye in one.. hand in
another.. scatters colors
> everywhere... people call it art. An autistic child does the same thing...
people call him stupid?
> I disagree in your logic and I feel that art, fine or any other is art. By
the way... if it isn't "fine" art...
> What is it?
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:300d30hb8n4ub54t7...@4ax.com...
> On Fri, 20 Feb 2004 21:17:54 GMT, "Christina Peterson"
<tinap...@yahoo.com> wrote:
>
> >OK. This is a sort of standard definition or fine art. Art is a
> >combination of "art"/"vision"/"poetry" and skill using materials, or
> >craft/artisan skills. It may be pretty or not. It is a well executed
> >expression of inner vision produces from "what's right in front of you"
> >vision.
> So if a person is uneducated/unskilled he/she can not create art. Ok got
it.
>
> >Most people are more interested in craftsmanship than art. In pretty --
> >something comfortable, not something the triggers too much thought. And
> >most crafts persons are more interested in variations the innovations --
> >trying something new, not something unheard of.
>
Dr. Sooz
another.. scatters colors
>everywhere... people call it art.
Um......not really. Picasso could paint so perfectly that it looked like a
photograph by the time he was 16, and did. Then he deconstructed what he saw.
He was a freaking genius, and his work changed the way the world looked at
everything.
For the sake of discussion, there is art....and there is art. I am all for
people feeling free to create what they feel is "art" without putting any
judgment on it. I feel a lot of art teachers are just power mad when they make
pronouncements. But, still --
Vincent Price, the famed movie actor who made zillions of grade-B horror
movies, was a huge art collector. He made those movies so he could collect --
they were a means to an end for Vincent. And he knew his art!
He got very tired of hearing people say, "I don't know art, but I know what I
like!" So he wrote a book.
It was called "I Like What I Know". I wholeheartedly agree with Mr.
Price......knowing what constitutes fine art (and what doesn't), in any field,
will help you enjoy that field more, and it will keep you from wasting your
money on overinflated flavors-of-the-week.
This doesn't mean you denigrate what people create for themselves. It just
means you know your stuff. It also means you can, because you've educated your
eye, appreciate things you may not have seen as worthy before your
enlightenment, such as abstract art.
>So it's fine art if the majority of people say so.
No, Harry. There are concrete reasons why Art with a capital "A" is seen as
such. But there is no way I would be able to tell you the whys of it in a
post, or even a dozen posts. Not to say that it's not worth discussing -- it's
always worth discussing! But it's a bigger field of study than can be covered
in a newsgroup -- and it's a visual field at that. We'd have to view artworks,
and discuss them. We'd have to go through the whole history of art.
>An autistic child does the same thing... people call him stupid?
I don't know anyone who would be insensitive enough to do this.
~~
Sooz
-------
"Those in the cheaper seats clap. The rest of you rattle your jewelry." John
Lennon (1940 - 1980) Royal Varieties Performance
~ Dr. Sooz's Bead Links
http://airandearth.netfirms.com/soozlinkslist.html
Dr. Sooz
>One voice defines if it is art.
>It's pretty only if I say it is.
>I don't see any variations. Ok got it.
>Just what the art teacher told me. She was always right and everyone else was
>wrong.
>Art is art. It is not something to be graded.
>Picasso draws a bunch of geometric forms.. puts an eye in one.. hand in
>another.. scatters colors
>everywhere... people call it art. An autistic child does the same thing...
>people call him stupid?
>I disagree in your logic and I feel that art, fine or any other is art. By
>the way... if it isn't "fine" art...
>What is it?
Harry, to me this sounds defensive and angry, not like a discussion.
Dr. Sooz
>their time.
This is an excellent point. There are artists who are venerated today who were
thought ridiculous in their time. Van Gogh is the most well known example of
this. People laughed at the Impressionists, for instance, and thought their
work was ridiculous and worthless. Today, those same artists are seen as
masters.
Karleen/Vibrant Jewels
thought I must be "getting it". But my "art advisor", who was also head of
the department, told me I did NOT have any "natural talent" and I might do
OK if I kept trying, just OK, maybe mediocre, nothing great, you see. And
since I was only about 19 at the time I BELIEVED HIM. I switched my major to
something else, quit drawing/painting/creating "art" all because of some
nitwit's arrogant opinion. I kept on doing crafty things, because I just HAD
to create, but thought I wasn't an artist because HE said so!
I think the key to art is the soul of the artist, someone who perceives and
shapes and makes - whether anyone else acknowledges it or not or recognizes
it or not. Of course part of the process is trying to perfect your craft -
as well as trying/inventing novel ways of expression. By "perfect" I don't
necessarily mean making something that is flawless, but something that is
mature and meaningful.
Often the people who get the acclaim, fame and $$$ in any culture for what
they create fade from history because what they do turns out not to have
lasting value. And the way to fame is often paved with a lot of politic-ing
& who-you-knowing & all that jazz. Some of the greatest artists in the
universe - Van Gogh comes to mind - get no recognition by their contemporary
culture, but are practically worshipped by later generations.
Still - I believe the creative process is worth investing in whether your
efforts rise to the level of "art" or just bring joy to yourself. I consider
myself an artist because of who I am, what I've made, how I perceive.
Whether some gallery or association or jury thinks so is irrelevant to me.
IMHO, of course!
--
Vibrant Jewels Online Bead & Jewelry Store
http://www.vibrantjewels.com/jewelry/welcome.htm
Karleen Page/Vibrant Jewels
JustBead Auctions
http://www.justbeads.com/search/ql.cfm?s=21770
PayPal Merchant Account
https://www.paypal.com/mrb/pal=7XJ98L86Z7S2C
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:as4c30h13ju5khf5g...@4ax.com...
> Starlia's recent episode has prompted me to write this and has awaken
something in me that I though was dead many years
> ago. What is pretty? What is art? For me... <snippercized>
Harry
>
>Harry, to me this sounds defensive and angry, not like a discussion.
>~~
>Sooz
<
Oh no no no... not at all. I just wanted to wake up peoples minds and explore
what art or Art is. If I made anyone angry I am sorry, but maybe some people
need to be angry so they can see what is or isn't art/Art. I know I totaly ticked off
Tina and am going to reply in a sec. :) Didn't mean to BTW.
Harry
>Well, you sure as hell didn't hear a thing I said.
LOL... I sure as the hell did! lol See below... way below before you hit me. :)
Hello. :) I know you are pretty upset and I really want to say good..., but it was
not my intention. I just wanted some one... anyone to open up and REALLY say
something that I could understand. Plain English! Thank you.
BTW... I heard every word. :) I will admit... I like the last set the best. lol
Oh how I love it when peoples feathers get ruffled and they get real!
Lay it on me... I can take it. I don't get angry to often... unless I am called
late to dinner. Tell me... is this a good topic conversation or what?
I am sorry if I have hurt you in any way.
Dr. Sooz
>what art or Art is. If I made anyone angry I am sorry,
I didn't say I was angry -- I said *you* sounded angry. Maybe you are and
don't know it. Perhaps you need to explore this?
Dr. Sooz
>something that I could understand. Plain English!
See, I thought what Tina said was really very clear......
Kandice Seeber
that the definition of art is different for each and every person. I don't
think we as humans can put a clear and provable, factual definition to art.
For me, art is what is pleasing to me, or what evokes a reaction in me
(negative or positive). Mother Earth (Nature) is my favorite artist. I
love color and sensual form. Curves, geometrics, flowers, color and light
are all very pleasing to me.
--
Kandice Seeber
Air & Earth Designs
http://www.lampwork.net
Harry
I read your other post and will answer here for that one also. :)
I wasn't angry... as far as I know I am still not.
I think it best that I go and bury my head in my tumblers and
leave this alone. :)
Debbie B
I'm trying but not physically able to do anything this week. So I just
fondle my beads and look at the magazines. Trying to be patient.
LOL
--
Debbie (New Mexico)
Life is too short
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote in message
news:q9uc30d46r2iu0f7o...@4ax.com...
Christina Peterson
co-operation to seem like I was attacking you instead of co-operating.
Trying to change my intentions is much worse than misquoting to me.
You go ruffle someone else's feathers. It's disrespectful and a very poor
way to have a discussion. It's not nice, it's not real, and it's not cute.
Tina
"Harry" <harr...@Yyahoo.com> wrote
roxan
Roxan
"Dr. Sooz" <diva...@aol.compuppies> wrote in message
news:20040220193124...@mb-m19.aol.com...
Paul
http://www.izm.com/xtra_pages/whatisart.htm
:-)
- Paul
Izm Studio
www.izm.com
(please contact me through the web site -- the email account used for
this post is not monitored)
Helen Page
My thoughts exactly! And I didn't think your necklace was ugly, I'm just not
really buying jewellery right now since I'm making so much myself, or I
might have bid myself...
Dr. Sooz
about beads, specifically.