The Million-Dollar Penny
Ned
dollars?
When it's a 1795 reeded-edge U.S. penny, one of only seven
known to exist. It recently sold for nearly $1.3 million at
auction�the first time a one-cent coin has cracked the
million-dollar price barrier.
It follows the sale earlier this year of a high-end
collection of rare half-dollars that fetched $1.1 million
at auction. At the same time, popular $20 U.S. Saint-
Gaudens gold pieces from the early 20th century are
commanding $1,700 apiece, sight unseen, in decent, though
not perfect condition, topping a record high last seen more
than two decades ago.
Today's coin market is largely defined by high-end
investors grabbing the rarest of coins that infrequently
come up for sale; gold bugs snapping up gold coins; and
speculators bidding up prices for coins whose grades they
suspect are too low, in the hopes of securing a higher
grade and selling them for more money. Yet ordinary
collectible coins � the nickels, dimes and quarters that
are nice but not great�have fallen in value by as much as
30% over the past year, say coin dealers and auction-house
executives...
Continued: http://tr.im/Coins1
Mr. Jaggers
> (Wall Street Journal) - When is a penny worth a million
> dollars?
>
> When it's a 1795 reeded-edge U.S. penny, one of only seven
> known to exist. It recently sold for nearly $1.3 million at
> million-dollar price barrier.
>
> It follows the sale earlier this year of a high-end
> collection of rare half-dollars that fetched $1.1 million
> at auction. At the same time, popular $20 U.S. Saint-
> Gaudens gold pieces from the early 20th century are
> commanding $1,700 apiece, sight unseen, in decent, though
> not perfect condition, topping a record high last seen more
> than two decades ago.
>
> Today's coin market is largely defined by high-end
> investors grabbing the rarest of coins that infrequently
> come up for sale; gold bugs snapping up gold coins; and
> speculators bidding up prices for coins whose grades they
> suspect are too low, in the hopes of securing a higher
> grade and selling them for more money. Yet ordinary
> are nice but not great-have fallen in value by as much as
> 30% over the past year, say coin dealers and auction-house
> executives...
They may have fallen in value, but in my recent travels, I have not seen
them fall in price at retail.
James the Curmudgeon
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:he6du...@enews1.newsguy.com...
I would add that it doesn't seem that the horrible economy has affected
sales of popular types of higher end collectibles that much at all. Any
time a scarce or rare item is offered for sale or auction, there appear to
be eager buyers out there.
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
When yields on money market accounts, six months Treasury notes
approach zero percent (and I am told that 3 month Treasuries actually
have a negative yield as of this weekend), some people get antsy. One
might as well enjoy spending the money as opposed to get paid nothing
for savings (and, to add insult to injury, be forced to pay income
taxes on the puny "income"). Presently, it is the intentional policy
of the U.S. Treasury and the FRB to smoke this kind of money out of
"savings" vehicles exactly by the strategy of paying nothing on
savings.
This explains some things, but it doesn't explain a $1 million+
copper.
The person who buys the $1million+ copper is "consuming", not
investing - and has forgotten the old investment saw "I'm not worried
about the return ON my money; I'm worried about the return OF my
money".
What exactly the buyer is "consuming", I really don't know.
IMHO, no matter what happens, the seller of the $1million+ copper is a
lot smarter than the buyer.
I have a copper 1826 penny of George IV setting on my desk (where it
has been for a long time) that gives me a great deal of satisfaction
(in the form of dreaming about its origins and all the places it has
been over time) and it costs $1,299,996.50 less than the penny in the
OP.
oly
Bruce Remick
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:9ec30e35-3f57-4dbf...@o10g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
________________
Since there's little opportunity for gains on traditional savings
vehicles, I'd like to see them relax taxing dividends and capital gains.
The fact that taxing the rich seems to be in vogue, they could eliminate
that dividend/capital gains tax for households earning less than $250,000.
________________
This explains some things, but it doesn't explain a $1 million+
copper.
________________
Looking at the hundreds of millions the government spends on pork
projects, a million bucks for a rare penny seems like chump change. At
least the owner has a chance of getting his money back, maybe from one of
those he outbid. The publicity alone from the sale will add to the
"provenance" of the piece, if it needed that at all. Then there the
multiple millions spent on the 1933 St. G which looks exactly like a $2,000
1928 except for the date.
___________________
The person who buys the $1million+ copper is "consuming", not
investing - and has forgotten the old investment saw "I'm not worried
about the return ON my money; I'm worried about the return OF my
money".
_________________
How about the person who buys Bernie Madoff's Mets jacket for $14,000?
Twenty years from now, people will have to be reminded of who the heck he
is/was. The collectibles market brings out a wide assortment of characters
who have a lot more money to play with than the rest of us.
_________________
What exactly the buyer is "consuming", I really don't know.
IMHO, no matter what happens, the seller of the $1million+ copper is a
lot smarter than the buyer.
___________________
At one time, the seller presumably was himself a "buyer", and at the
time he may have been ridiculed for the price he paid. One never knows
who'll have the last laugh.
___________________
I have a copper 1826 penny of George IV setting on my desk (where it
has been for a long time) that gives me a great deal of satisfaction
(in the form of dreaming about its origins and all the places it has
been over time) and it costs $1,299,996.50 less than the penny in the
OP.
____________________
And I've got a beautifully-aged copper-plated 1943 Lincoln and a
magician's 1920 Lincoln Cent/Mercury dime in Amos slabs facing me on my
desk. I get just as much enjoyment out of pondering those as I would by my
18th century pennies. However, I just can't imagine someone sitting in a
soft leather chair admiring Bernie's former Mets jacket on a hanger over the
mantle.
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I'm not really certain where I'm going with this, but the price paid
for the copper is both real and ridiculous.
It strikes me that the only happy thing the copper buyer CAN hope for
is to find an even "greater fool" somewhere down the line.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Everything else being equal, an 1827 British penny has seen even more exotic
locations.
James the Traveler
oly
wrote:
>
> - Show quoted text -
So sayeth Mr. Seaby and others!
oly
Bruce Remick
On Nov 22, 11:20 am, "Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
<snips>
I'm not really certain where I'm going with this, but the price paid
for the copper is both real and ridiculous.
It strikes me that the only happy thing the copper buyer CAN hope for
is to find an even "greater fool" somewhere down the line.
oly
_______________
Like I said before, some people will gladly pay a million $$ for
something most others would feel is ridiculous. The thing you mentioned
happened to be a extremely rare copper penny. Could've been a 1913 nickel,
a dirty Van Gogh, or the Corvette I saw sell on a TV car auction the other
day. If the penny buyer was a multi-millionaire or billionaire he probably
didn't even feel the sting. I doubt finding a future buyer ever entered his
mind. As we all know by now, a million ain't nothing nowadays.
David Farmer
oly
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:335d55cb-53db-4eeb...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 11:20 am, "Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> <snips>
>
> I'm not really certain where I'm going with this, but the price paid
> for the copper is both real and ridiculous.
>
> It strikes me that the only happy thing the copper buyer CAN hope for
> is to find an even "greater fool" somewhere down the line.
>
> oly
> _______________
>
> Like I said before, some people will gladly pay a million $$ for
> something most others would feel is ridiculous. The thing you mentioned
> happened to be a extremely rare copper penny. Could've been a 1913 nickel,
> a dirty Van Gogh, or the Corvette I saw sell on a TV car auction the other
> day. If the penny buyer was a multi-millionaire or billionaire he probably
> didn't even feel the sting. I doubt finding a future buyer ever entered his
> mind. As we all know by now, a million ain't nothing nowadays.
Trite, trivial drivel.
Since you care to take the opposite position, what exactly can this
$1.3 million dollar penny provide for its new owner?
I would say that the only possible good thing that can come from
owning it would arise from selling it someday for more than what you
paid for it.
That's it. There is nothing else that the ownership of this item can
possibly do for you.
You can't even tell other people that you own it - that would result
in harrassment from people who want money from you, and/or make you a
target of thieves.
An expensive automobile can at least transport you to various places
and might act as a chick magnet.
An expensive farm can provide for you and for future generations of
your family.
An expensive house will probably make the woman you live with happy,
at least for a while. Maybe she will make you happy in return. A
doubtful proposition.
But $1.3 million for a 29 millimeter copper coin - all because it has
some extra markings on the edge???
Trading cows for magic beans there, Jackie, old boy (soft-in-the-head
variety).
oly
Mr. Jaggers
I fail to see two things: 1) How can you possibly know what goes on inside
the mind of the owner? 2) Who the Hell are you that you feel both a need
and the permission to speak for him?
James, speaking publicly and regularly on behalf of God
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
If you are replying to me (that's not easy to tell by what you've
snipped), I've already stated that I can't fathom what ownership of
this item could do for a person.
Therefore, I welcome some explaination AND don't think it's a bad
question.
Some very weak light reeds on a mindor copper (see the photo in the
Red Book and see if it looks like a million bucks to you). $1.3
million??? I'd say they were playing with or adjusting the machine
that indented the edges of the precious metal coins. Mental
disconnect.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Yes, I was replying to you.
OK, *you* can't fathom. Fair enough. Maybe I can't either. Why does
either of us have a *need* to fathom? It's his business and his money if
the coin you think is crap looks like a mill to him. What in the world do
you stand to gain by this tearing down of another collector? I hope you
don't harbor the notion that you are building yourself up in anyone's eyes
by engaging in such commentary. I have hundreds of collector friends whose
tastes I do not share, and even some whose tastes I wonder about sometimes.
But when one of them comes up to me all excited about his latest acquisiton,
whether it's an 1853 large cent in AG3 scudzy or an MS69 PQ CAC 2008-P
Lincoln cent, I'm going to share in his joy, not whiz in his oatmeal. That,
by the way, is one of the reasons those people are still my friends. It
certainly is neither my looks nor my largesse.
James the Ugly and Stingy
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
If I was worried about building myself up, I'd have quit reading and
posting here long ago.
I don't think this type of transaction represents "collecting".
Undoubtedly it is "speculating". Or, I must wonder if some of these
reported "sales" really represent actual, arms-length transactions.
If questioning something dubious represents "whizing in the oatmeal",
then there is no point in becoming educated in the sense of a modern
liberal, secular education. When enough people don't "whiz in the
oatmeal", you get those nasty Enrons and Bernie Madoffs and Fannie Mae
and Freddie Mac.
If you can't disagree with a friend in any way shape or form, then the
basis of that friendship is very flimsy. But if somebody spends $150
on a sulphur-yellow 1930s commemorative half in a bad slab, well yes
that can be overlooked. They'll dream their little dreams and
eventually sell at a loss, and they'll be out only a couple of cases
of weak American lager.
oly
Mr. Jaggers
I can't top that, so I declare you the winner and I'll now be on my way.
James the Vagabond
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
Well, I'm certain that you can top that, and if not, how can we get a
good discussion or food fight or what the hell???
That $1.3 million is a "light a candle" price. The seller and his
agents should slink down to the nearest cathedral or temple and light
a candle thanking their god(s) for getting such an outrageous price.
oly
Bruce Remick
On Nov 22, 2:16 pm, "Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
> "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> news:335d55cb-53db-4eeb...@33g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> On Nov 22, 11:20 am, "Bruce Remick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote:
>
> > "oly" <oly2...@aol.com> wrote in message
>
> <snips>
>
> I'm not really certain where I'm going with this, but the price paid
> for the copper is both real and ridiculous.
>
> It strikes me that the only happy thing the copper buyer CAN hope for
> is to find an even "greater fool" somewhere down the line.
>
> oly
> _______________
>
> Like I said before, some people will gladly pay a million $$ for
> something most others would feel is ridiculous. The thing you mentioned
> happened to be a extremely rare copper penny. Could've been a 1913 nickel,
> a dirty Van Gogh, or the Corvette I saw sell on a TV car auction the other
> day. If the penny buyer was a multi-millionaire or billionaire he probably
> didn't even feel the sting. I doubt finding a future buyer ever entered
> his
> mind. As we all know by now, a million ain't nothing nowadays.
Trite, trivial drivel.
Since you care to take the opposite position, what exactly can this
$1.3 million dollar penny provide for its new owner?
_____________________
Probably a great sense of satisfaction as a collector. Beyond that,
who's to say? You'd probably have to ask the owner....if you can get an
appointment thorugh his rep.
_____________________
I would say that the only possible good thing that can come from
owning it would arise from selling it someday for more than what you
paid for it.
_____________________
You seem pretty sure that's why he bought it. Is that why you bought
the 1826 penny? You may be wrong in assuming that there will be no
one waiting to buy that million dollar cent-- maybe even for a higher
price-- should the new owner ever decide to sell it. Besides, anyone who
can afford to pay that much for a penny, or ANY coin, will probably not
worry about losing a little money in it's sale.
_____________________
That's it. There is nothing else that the ownership of this item can
possibly do for you.
You can't even tell other people that you own it - that would result
in harrassment from people who want money from you, and/or make you a
target of thieves.
_____________________
You're sounding paranoid, Oly. As a collector, what would you expect
any of the coins you own to do for you? You presume the owner
keeps his ownership a secret. Why should he have to? I doubt he worries
about freeloaders or that he displays his collection on the coffee
table.
_____________________
An expensive automobile can at least transport you to various places
and might act as a chick magnet.
_____________________
Not many million dollar cars are used for transportation or to attact
chicks.
_____________________
An expensive farm can provide for you and for future generations of
your family.
_____________________
As long as it rains, crop prices don't tank, your work force isn't
deported, and you don't die.
_____________________
An expensive house will probably make the woman you live with happy,
at least for a while. Maybe she will make you happy in return. A
doubtful proposition.
But $1.3 million for a 29 millimeter copper coin - all because it has
some extra markings on the edge???
______________________
You don't know the woman I live with. Our first mortgage statement
would have me out in the street.
Fancy diamonds are even smaller than 29mm and are priced based on
precise characteristics that only a jeweler or appraiser can see, and
maybe on who the prior owner was, but people often pay millions for some of
them based only on what a dealer claims. Similar diamonds of lesser
grade would sell for a few thousand and most customers couldn't tell the
difference. At least anyone can see the edge markings on the
penny. Why begrudge some wealthy collector's whim?
______________________
Trading cows for magic beans there, Jackie, old boy (soft-in-the-head
variety).
_______________________
Hey, once Jack's magic beans turned into his path to gold and women, you
never read any more about the cow.
Bruce Remick
_________________
To me, spending $1.3 million today for a rare cent is roughly equivalent to
spending $12.50 for a 1909-SVDB in Good condition when I started collecting
in the early 1950's. With my 25� weekly allowance, I not only couldn't
envision ever being able to afford that coin, but most people would have
thought I was crazy to even consider spending that much "disposable income"
on a worn penny. Simply a case of inflation. A million bucks is nothing
today.
sgt23
I don't know about you but I can still buy a car and a house for way
under a million dollars. You couldn't even a car for $12.50 back in
the 50's
Bruce Remick
"sgt23" <bravesfa...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:a6e31045-9a94-4d8e...@m33g2000vbi.googlegroups.com...
________________
Amzing! I can buy a car and house for way less than a million, too. But
although I don't believe I mentioned anything about buying a car for $12.50
in the 1950's, you sure could find a pretty good selection of drivable used
cars for $25.
sgt23
> "sgt23" <bravesfandevo...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
Yes I know said the nothing about that. But you said having $12.50 in
the 50's was roughly the equivalent of spending $1.3 million dollar
today. Maybe I'm missing something here. Please enlighten me?
Mr. Jaggers
My driver ed teacher referred to such vehicles as "$25 caskets on wheels."
James the Survivor
Bruce Remick
______________
Read again. Did you notice that I used the words "to me"? I simply meant
to contrast the collector spending a million today on a large cent he
wanted, and the possibility of using my 25� allowance to pay $12.50 for the
1909-SVDB I wanted, and what people probably would have thought of it both
then and now. I might have been able to save enough to buy that worn penny,
but people would have thought I was nuts-- about like Oly feels about the
guy who spent 1.3 million on the large cent. Different time, same attitude.
Only the relative dollar amounts have changed.
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hed32...@enews6.newsguy.com...
One of those $25 "caskets" helped me enjoy my after hours during a 6-month
Army training school while others were taking the bus or hanging around the
barracks. It did leave me high and dry in the city one time, but then
everything isn't perfect. And of course there are always the
memories........
sgt23
Yes I could see that if you were a child. I apologize for reading too
much into what you were trying too say.