The Breen Encyclopedia
Bruce Butz
never been updated and re-released.
Used copies are going for around $75-100 on
e-Bay .So there is certainly a demand for it.
I know that Walter is dead but surely ,after all
these years the rights to the work must be
available.It would seem a natural for someone
like Q. David Bowers to update it with corrections.
I would bet a 2001 edition would be a huge
success.
Does anyone know who owns the rights to
the book?
Bruce B.
Stevie G
> never been updated and re-released.
> Used copies are going for around $75-100 on
> e-Bay .So there is certainly a demand for it.
I don't think any respected numismatist would want to deal with the work of
that convicted homosexual.
JSTONE9352
>
>
>
>
>
Tim Irvin
<ste...@aol.com> wrote:
> I don't think any respected numismatist would want to deal with the work of
> that convicted homosexual.
Don't feed the trolls. Especially those who can't comprehend the
difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Thanks for your
cooperation.
--
Tim Irvin, zig...@svpal.org --- ANA R-167586
"Trouble no one about their religion; respect others in their view, and
demand that they respect yours...Abuse no one and nothing, for abuse
turns the wise ones to fools and robs the spirit of its vision."
-- Tecumseh (1768-1813), Shawnee chief and statesman
-----= Posted via Newsfeeds.Com, Uncensored Usenet News =-----
http://www.newsfeeds.com - The #1 Newsgroup Service in the World!
-----== Over 80,000 Newsgroups - 16 Different Servers! =-----
Reid Goldsborough
wrote:
>I wonder why the Breen Encyclopedia has
>never been updated and re-released.
To me what's so disturbing about Walter Breen, and a reason I'd never
use his encyclopedia or any other book of his, is his intellectual
dishonesty. Sure, it appalls me that he raped boys. But he also made
up facts in his work, which has been clearly documented. Are the two
connected? I believe so. In both cases, he couldn't control his
impulses.
Breen is often credited for his photographic memory of individual
coins and his encyclopedic knowledge of numismatics as a whole. But,
in my mind, there would always be uncertainty and suspicion
surrounding the "facts" that he puts forth.
--
Draped Busts: http://www.draped-busts.com
Tim Irvin
Goldsborough <reid...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> Breen is often credited for his photographic memory of individual
> coins and his encyclopedic knowledge of numismatics as a whole. But,
> in my mind, there would always be uncertainty and suspicion
> surrounding the "facts" that he puts forth.
See, to the extent that this is open for debate, *this* is, IMO, a
legitimate reason to pan the work. Breen's personal life, as some have
brought up here, has NOTHING to do with the scholarship or lack
thereof.
His personal life would affect how I view him personally and, were he
still alive, whether I'd want to sit down and have a beer with the guy.
It has nothing to do with whether or not his work is any good --
especially now that he's deceased and can no longer profit from any of
it.
Jorg Lueke
errors (I really only know of two) are very abundant and his encyclopedia is
well worth the money; I'd recommend it to any new coin collector. It might not
be perfect for reasearch, but one should usually seek primary sources when
available anyways. His facts are certainly better then those in most history
books.
"Reid Goldsborough" <reid...@netaxs.com> wrote in message
news:3mg7kt83ktp889coo...@4ax.com...
Reid Goldsborough
<jlu...@nospam.mn.mediaone.net> wrote:
>Many numismatic authors, or normal authors make up facts.
Not if they're honest! Sure, writers make mistakes, but I'd say that a
very small minority deliberately fabricate. What Breen did was
deliberately fabricate, and then he tried to cover it with bogus
footnotes. Dig into the footnotes and the facts are revealed for what
they are: conjecture.
I'm no expert on Breen. Others know far more about his tactics than
me. I have dug into one example of the above and have heard of others.
Jorg Lueke
annotating their work. There was a review of the most commonl;y used high
school history texts done several years ago. All of them used footnotes which
pointed to sources that did not support their claims or even outright
contradicted the author. I usually don't usually follow up on footnotes but in
every case where I have done so I have found serious problems. 2 dozen examples
is still anectodal but it makes me very suspicious of any published facts.news:skm7ktsl5a26u91jv...@4ax.com...
Stevie G
> difference between homosexuality and pedophilia. Thanks for your
> cooperation.
In Breen's case they were one and the same.
Denis Loring
>>Didn't B&M recently update and publish Breen's book on large cents?
>>
Census. This is a work that had been in progress for literally decades. It
started as an update of Penny Whimsy, but rapidly expanded far beyond that in
both scope and detail.
Denis Loring
DWLo...@aol.com
Bruce Butz
I'm no expert on Breen. Others know far more about his tactics than me.
I have dug into one example of the above and have heard of others.
--
Draped Busts: http://www.draped-busts.com
Reid:
Would you share with us new members
of the group the example you found?
Bruce B.
Reid Goldsborough
wrote:
>Would you share with us new members
>of the group the example you found?
I wrote a short article about it that recently appeared in the May
issue of Coins magazine. Since I and the magazine share reprint
rights, rather than rewrite all this, I'll just post the article
below:
Walter Breen and the Draped Bust Controversy
By Reid Goldsborough
Draped Bust coins are among the earliest U.S. coins, and the most
beautiful. Dated between 1795 and 1808, Draped Bust coins are prized
for their visual appeal, history, and rarity.
Most numismatic writers today credit Anne Willing Bingham as being the
model for the buxom Liberty of the Draped Bust design. Anne Bingham
was an influential socialite, friend of the rich and powerful, and she
was considered to be the most beautiful woman of her day.
Anne Bingham's linkage with the Draped Bust design isn't universally
accepted, however. At least one accomplished numismatic scholar
contends that this is just a myth, mere speculation, that there's no
documentary evidence to support the story.
Digging deeply into this dispute reveals some of the challenges, and
failures, of numismatic scholarship, and it sheds some interesting
light on our hobby as a whole.
Though Anne Bingham is almost always cited today in articles about
Draped Bust coins, this wasn't always the case. A careful search, with
the help of numismatic enthusiasts Richard DeLuca, Ed Stoebenau, and
Red Henry, indicates that the earliest reference to this seems to be
Walter Breen's Complete Encyclopedia of U.S. and Colonial Coins, a
landmark book that was copyrighted in 1988.
The late Walter Breen was an enormously complex and controversial
figure in his own right. He's often thought of as the numismatic
world's premier scholar, yet he was a convicted child molester (he was
arrested in a Beverly Hills coin shop) and died in prison while
serving hard time. His output was prodigious, encompassing more than
40 books on coin collecting (under a different name he also wrote
articles and a book about "Greek" love). And, most relevant to this
discussion, he was frequently charged with fabricating facts to fill
in gaps in his numismatic research, despite his credentials of having
worked previously as a researcher at the National Archives.
One such charge of dishonest scholarship involves the Draped Bust
Liberty. In his encyclopedia, Breen supports the Draped Bust/Anne
Bingham connection with a reference to a much earlier book by former
U.S. Mint director James Snowden. The book, which was copyrighted in
1861, has a long title not uncommon for its time: A Description of the
Medals of Washington, of National and Miscellaneous Medals, and of
Other Objects of Interest in the Museum of the Mint.
When you actually look at Snowden's book, however, you see that
Snowden himself made so such connection. In fact, he didn't even
mention Anne Bingham specifically or any model in general used for the
Draped Bust Liberty.
What Snowden did write about was the artist who created the image that
was used for the Draped Bust series. Snowden stated that it was
Gilbert Stuart, the celebrated painter who created, among other works,
the famous unfinished Washington portrait called the "Athenaeum,"
which was used a model for the image of George Washington on the one
dollar bill.
In his book, on page 177, Snowden wrote: "The head of Liberty on the
dollar of 1795 was designed by Stuart, the celebrated portrait
painter, at the request of the [U.S. Mint.] Director, as we learn from
a relation of the family."
Breen thus seems to have made up the Draped Bust/Anne Bingham
connection in his 1988 book. This "fact" was then widely disseminated,
among other means, by written materials from the coin grading service
NGC (Numismatic Guarantee Corporation) and through articles in coin
magazines such as "Stuart and the Phillie Socialite," which was
published in the June 1996 issue of the American Numismatic
Association's The Numismatist.
Does the fact that Breen dreamed up this fact mean that it's false?
Not necessarily. Breen went about it in the wrong way, but he may have
been onto something.
When you dig into the history, you find an abundance of circumstantial
evidence that connects Anne Bingham with the Draped Bust design, which
Richard DeLuca in particular has been helpful in uncovering. As a
result of his research, Breen was undoubtedly aware of this evidence
as well, but for his own unfathomable reasons, he choose to fabricate
a scholarly looking reference rather than present the softer support.
The indirect, circumstantial evidence is pretty convincing.
* Anne Bingham was close personal friends with key players, including
George Washington, U.S. president at the time; Thomas Jefferson, who
was instrumental in establishing the Mint; and Gilbert Stuart, who
created the image of Liberty on a sketch that was used by Mint
engraver Robert Scot in designing the Draped Bust coins.
* Though Stuart's Draped Bust sketch hasn't survived, what has
survived from the hand of Gilbert Stuart are other works depicting
Anne Bingham, including a sketch, a portrait, an unfinished portrait,
and an unfinished portrait of the Bingham family.
* There is a distinct resemblance of Liberty on the Draped Bust coins
to Anne Bingham in these works of Stuart. The resemblance isn't exact
-- the image of Liberty on the Draped Bust coins was in all likelihood
idealized as it made its way from sketch to plastic model to die --
but it's close enough not to rule out the connection.
* Anne Bingham lived in Philadelphia, site of the U.S. Mint.
* Her father and husband were co-founders of the Bank of North
America, also in Philadelphia.
* She was regarded as the most beautiful woman of her time in Europe
as well as America -- engravings of her were sold in fashionable shops
in Paris and London.
The lack of hard evidence, such as contemporary documentation,
connecting Anne Bingham with the Draped Bust coins isn't surprising in
light of the fact that much written material from that period hasn't
survived.
What's more, a credible argument can be made that information linking
Anne Bingham and the Draped Bust Liberty may have been deliberately
suppressed at the time. To show a recognizable person on the nation's
coins would have been politically dangerous. The Mint was under attack
in its early days from opponents of President George Washington's
administration, who charged that the Mint was too expensive and had
failed to provide a circulating medium. Washington was a Federalist,
and Anne Bingham's husband and father were also powerful figures among
Federalist leaders. A recognizable portrait of a Federalist could have
been misinterpreted to mean that only the Federalists stood for real
Liberty. This would certainly have added fuel to the fire of anti-Mint
sentiments.
We may never know with certainty whether it really is the image of
Anne Bingham that appears on Draped Bust coins. But situations like
this reinforce the need for honesty in our hobby. Trust is everything.
When a coin dealer hypes a coin for being rare when it's not, when a
third-party grading service puts F-15 coins in EF-40 slabs, when a
coin doctor removes a scratch from a coin and then claims it has
original surfaces, people eventually find out. This leads to
suspiciousness, which can breed cynicism, which can eventually lead to
alienation. Some drop out of the hobby completely, while others decide
not to get involved in the first place.
The same can happen when those who write about coins misrepresent the
truth. It makes you wonder what to believe, and it may make you stop
reading completely.
Bruce Butz
A very interesting article.
Bruce .
Fred A. Murphy
On 4-Jul-2001, "Stevie G" <ste...@aol.com> wrote:
> I don't think any respected numismatist would want to deal with the work
> of that convicted homosexual.
How about *other* convicted homosexuals?
Perhaps unconvicted homosexuals?
Convicted heterosexuals?
Just playing with you a bit here. He wasn't "convicted" of homosexuality,
but rather of sex with a minor.
You have hit on half the problem. Considering that "poppa look down and
spit on the ground every time his name is mentioned", any numismatist would
think twice before wanting to have his name associated with Breen's, even as
a rewriter.
Perhaps more importantly, there are few if any numismatists capable or
interested in the level of work needed to make any significant contribution
to the work. Any that are would probably be more interested in having their
own name on an encyclopedia numismatica.
Finally, we don't know the copyright situation involved with the current
book. The publishers may have republication rights, first run only rights,
rights to republish and update, or any of dozens of other variations on the
theme. If they feel that Breen's lifestyle was sufficiently abhorrent, they
might refuse to republish simply to keep money from going into Breen's
estate.
--
"I am Elmer J. Fudd, Millionaire. I own a mansion and a yacht."
Fred A. Murphy
They are two completely different things, though Breen happened to engage in
both. They are no more "one and the same" than saying that someone who
killed his wife and threw his trash on the neighbor's lawn makes murder and
littering "one and the same".
Mark Greene
>> In Breen's case they were one and the same.
>
>They are two completely different things, though Breen happened to engage in
>both.
Not quite.
Not every pedophile is a homosexual, but by definition, every pedophile that
preys on minors of the same sex is a homosexual.
---
Mark
updated:http://members.aol.com/Prgrmr/bestsig.html
(the new stuff is added at the bottom)
Fred A. Murphy
On 12-Jul-2001, prg...@aol.combustion (Mark Greene) wrote:
> Not every pedophile is a homosexual, but by definition, every pedophile
> that preys on minors of the same sex is a homosexual.
Including the bisexual ones? :^)
The more important issue is that very few homosexuals are pedophiles, which
seemed to be the implication of why he was convicted--for being a
homosexual.
Mark Greene
>From: "Fred A. Murphy"
>Including the bisexual ones? :^)
>
Yes, the definition does not refer to exclusivity.
>The more important issue is that very few homosexuals are pedophiles,
Source? Attribution?
Probably figureable though.
The numbers for the given homosexual population ranges anywhere from the 1%-2%
from the extreme conservatives to 10%-15% for the extreme liberals. Figure out
what percentage of crime in a given state involves sex with minors of the same
gender. Assume that only 50% of the adults get caught and do the math.
I suppose it also depends on how you'd quantify "very few".
Mark Greene
>The numbers for the given homosexual population ranges anywhere from the
>1%-2%
>from the extreme conservatives to 10%-15% for the extreme liberals.
Heh, I've obviously--and not intentionally-- left off the words "of the total
population" after those numbers. Sort of reads a bit different with that in
there, doesn't it?
Sorry about that. :-o
Steven Preston
>homosexuals are pedophiles,
The fact is that very few of any group of people, whether grouped by
race, religion, sexual orientation or favorite gameshow are pedophiles
and a homosexual is no more likely to be a deviant (and I'm all too
aware that there are those that view the two as equivalent) than a
heterosexual. Breen was a sick man who also happened to be homosexual.
-Steve
Roy Wilson
(Steven Preston) wrote:
>>The more important issue is that very few
>>homosexuals are pedophiles,
>
>The fact is that very few of any group of people, whether grouped by
>race, religion, sexual orientation or favorite gameshow are pedophiles
>and a homosexual is no more likely to be a deviant (and I'm all too
>aware that there are those that view the two as equivalent) than a
>heterosexual.
You're wrong on that one. Most pedophiles are male
homosexuals, usually white, usually age 35-50. A male heterosexual
pedophile is even rarer than a female pedophile of either persuasion,
and they're so small a count as to approach statistical zero.
Roy Wilson <WINS#6>
Numismatist? <www.winsociety.ws>
Bill Krummel
Roy Wilson <Emperor...@email.com> wrote in message
news:3b4e896c....@news.twcny.rr.com...
I really cannot take a position in an area I have no expertise, but I can
share my observations after 23 years of hiring young people. After giving
some serious thought to the percentages, I would say over 33% ( I really
feel I could say half) of the females I have hired and that have stayed for
any serious length of time, have made mention of sexual abuse in their
preteen and early teenage years. Some have talked about the counseling they
have received, one stated that her abuser (a friend of her father) did jail
time for his actions. In every instance, the abuser was male family
mainly step dad or uncle, although in my ex-wife's case, it was her father)
or male friend of the family. What I don't know is if this is what is
referred to as "pedophile". In any event, many things can be said about my
observations, including how unscientific they are, how much was truth vs.
story, does it reflect a specific cross section of our populace that works
at fast food, and how many have had this type of experience and won't admit
to it. But in no instance have I had anyone relate anything other than old
er male vs. young female. This is in contrast with sexual abuse cases that
end up in the newspapers, which suggest more of a 50/50 of male abusing
young male, and male abusing young female, with a rare case of an older
women being the predator.
Under no circumstance am I defending homosexuality, or attacking
heterosexuality, but simply relating personal observations in a topic that
is straying way off topic for this newsgroup. Bill
David L Hamilton
>even rarer than a female pedophile of either persuasion,
>and they're so small a count as to approach statistical zero.
Unless you include Washington state teachers in the group of female
pedphiles :-(
---------------------------------------
Jorg Lueke
pedophiles who abuse boys than woman who abuse boys but the fast majority are
heterosexual abusers of young girls.
Roy Wilson
<hda...@qwest.net> wrote:
>>>Roy Wilson said:
>
>>even rarer than a female pedophile of either persuasion,
>>and they're so small a count as to approach statistical zero.
>
>Unless you include Washington state teachers in the group of female
>pedphiles :-(
For clarity, I deal with a lot of crime statistics, especially
FBI UCR data. Using the FBI's definition of the crime of pedophilia,
my statement about the proclivities and sexual orientations of the
felons is correct.
Child abuse, male, female, hetero or homo, is NOT pedophilia.
It's abuse, and if sexual contact is involved, it's rape as well.
A pedophile stalks victims serially, usually not within their
own family structure. Unfortunately, a great many of them murder
their victims as well.
All of which has absolutely nothing to do with coins, so I'll
drop it now and start a new thread regarding black cancer on
cupronickel coins.
Public <Anonymous_Account>
---
This message did not originate from the Sender address above.
It was posted with the use of anonymizing software at
http://anon.xg.nu
---
Stevie G
news:28324-3B...@storefull-628.iap.bryant.webtv.net...
> Breen was a sick man who also happened to be homosexual.
redundant statement alert
Stujoe
thusly...
After that statement, I think this thread is in need of adopting the
Don't Ask, Don't Tell and most especially Don't Pursue policy.
--
Stu Miller
My coins may not be pretty but they have great personalities.
The Stujoe Collection, est. 1999
RCC FAQ: http://www.telesphere.com/ts/coins/faq2.html
Tim Irvin
<stu...@NONADASPAMbigfoot.com> wrote:
> After that statement, I think this thread is in need of adopting the
> Don't Ask, Don't Tell and most especially Don't Pursue policy.
Actually, I think it needs a few Hitler and/or Nazi references to
Godwinize it once and for all. :)
Jorg Lueke
Hitler thought homosexuals were deviants who should be killed.
EOT
"Tim Irvin" <zig...@svpal.org> wrote in message
news:130720011801053522%zig...@svpal.org...
Fred A. Murphy
Steve is an MD who usually has a pretty good handle on what he posts about.
Would you mind citing some sources for your statement, preferably web-based?
I ask because it also flies in the face of everything I have learned on the
subject, and while I'm only a dabbler in abnormal psychology, I am at least
vaguely familiar with the topic.
--
Īš°`°šĪø,ļļ,øĪš°Ī DISCLAIMER Īš°`°šĪø,ļļ,øĪš°Ī
If you find a posting or message from myself
offensive, inappropriate, or disruptive, please
ignore it. If you don't know how to ignore a posting,
complain to me and I will demonstrate.
Īš°`°šĪø,ļļ,øĪš°Ī Īš°`°šĪø,ļļ,øĪš°Ī Īš°`°šĪø,ļļ,øĪš°Ī
Roy Wilson
<bigg...@NOSPAMameritech.net> wrote:
>> You're wrong on that one. Most pedophiles are male
>> homosexuals, usually white, usually age 35-50. A male heterosexual
>> pedophile is even rarer than a female pedophile of either persuasion,
>> and they're so small a count as to approach statistical zero.
>
>Steve is an MD who usually has a pretty good handle on what he posts about.
>Would you mind citing some sources for your statement, preferably web-based?
> I ask because it also flies in the face of everything I have learned on the
>subject, and while I'm only a dabbler in abnormal psychology, I am at least
>vaguely familiar with the topic.
FBI, State, and in some cases City -level crime reports. I do
OCR work as a real job, and a lot of it is legal stuff. I believe the
FBI has a public-access page up where you can find some of the
profiles they use. That one would definitely be on it.
Then again, with all the feces they've gotten recently for
profiling, it wouldn't surprise me if the link 404's.
Stevie G
the
> subject, and while I'm only a dabbler in abnormal psychology, I am at
least
> vaguely familiar with the topic.
Some random crap on this subject:
Many states have laws criminalizing homosexual behavior. In the most recent
United States Supreme Court ruling on the subject, Bowers v. Hardwick 1986,
the court held "The Constitution does not confer a fundamental right upon
homosexuals to engage in sodomy."
A survey revealed that 28% of homosexual men and 1% of lesbians admitted to
sexual relations with children under 16 while they themselves were adults.
Source: Gebhard, P.H. and Johnson, A.B., " The Kinsey Data: Marginal
Tabulations of the 1938-1963 Interviews Conducted by the Institute for Sex
Research," NY: Saunders.
Of 400 consecutive Australian cases of molestation, 64% of those assaults
were homosexual. Source: McGeorge, J., "Sexual assaults on children,"
Medical Science and the Law; Vol. 4: pp. 245-253.
In a random survey of British 15-to-19 year olds, 35% of the boys and 9% of
the girls claimed to have been approached for sex by adult homosexuals.
Source: Schofield, M., The Sexual Behavior of Young People, Boston, Little,
Brown.
In France, 129 convicted gays said they had sexual contact with a total of
11,007 boys. An average of 85 different boys per homosexual. Source: Dr.
Edward Brongersma in Pedophilia: The Radical Case, Boston: Alyson.
Several studies reveal that while no more than 2% of the male adults are
homosexual, approximately 35% of pedophiles are homosexual. The first study
done out of Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34%
and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual. In the cases
personally handled by the doctors, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their
457 pedophiles. In the other study, a review of scientific and professional
literature in 1985, the study concluded that homosexual acts were involved
in 25% to 40% of the cases of child molestation. Source: K. Frued et al.,,
"Pedophilia and heterosexuality vs. homosexuality," Journal of Sex and
Marital Therapy 10 p. 193-200; also P. Cameron, "Homosexual molestation of
children: Sexual interaction of teacher and pupil," Psychological Reports,
Vol. 57 : pp.1227-36.
A report on male child molesters found that heterosexual men who molested
girls outside their family averaged 20 victims each; those who were
homosexual and molested boys averaged 150 victims each. Source: Abel, G.
G., et al, "Self-reported sex crimes on no incarcerated paraphiliacs,"
Journal of Interpersonal Violence: Vol. 2; pp. 3-25.
Of 52 child molesters in Ottawa, Canada from 1983 to 1985, 31 (60%) were
homosexual. Source: Bradford, J. M. W., et al., "The
heterogeneity/homogeneity of pedophilia," Psychiatrical Journal of the
University of Ottawa; Vol. 13: pp. 217-226.
In 1980 the largest Dutch gay organization (the COC) "adopted the position
that the liberation of pedophilia must be viewed as a gay issue...[and that]
ages of consent should therefore be abolished...by acknowledging the
affinity between homosexuality and pedophilia, the COC has quite possibly
made it easier for homosexual adults to become more sensitive to erotic
desires of younger members of their sex, thereby broadening gay identity."
In 1990 COC achieved a significant victory: lowering of the age of consent
for homosexual sex in Holland to 12. Source: Verified by telephone with the
Dutch Embassy, August 5, 1993.
In the early '90s, homosexual activists fought and won the repeal of
Canada's age of consent law for homosexual sex to lower the age from 16 to
14 years old. Source: Mulshine, Paul, "Man/Boy love," Heterodoxy,
September, 1994, p.10
In a 10-state study, 33% of the male and 22% of the female teachers caught
molesting students did so performing homosexual sex acts ( approximately
2-3% of men are homosexuals and 1% of women are lesbians). Source: Cameron
& Cameron," Do homosexual teachers pose a risk to pupils?" Journal of
Psychology; vol.130: pp. 603-613.
Blah blah blah blah - Can we get this out of RCC?
Aram H. Haroutunian
are these studies saying that the MAJORITY of the cases
of pedophilia involve HETEROSEXUALS?? Or am I misreading
this? If 36% of the child molestors are homosexual, then the other
64% are heterosexual, isn't that correct? Aram.
===============================
Stevie G
posted some data related to the issue. I found nothing that claims that
homosexuals are the majority, but much that said they committed these acts
far out of proportion to their population.
"Aram H. Haroutunian" <bust...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:3b54ec4...@nntp.we.mediaone.net...
Aram H. Haroutunian
the STUDIES seem to be saying that. I will snip the ones that don't
seem to be saying that and expand a bit on those which seem to:
"Stevie G" <ste...@aol.com> wrote:
>I didn't make the assertion that the majority were homosexual, I merely
>posted some data related to the issue. I found nothing that claims that
>homosexuals are the majority, but much that said they committed these acts
>far out of proportion to their population.
>
>"Aram H. Haroutunian" <bust...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
>news:3b54ec4...@nntp.we.mediaone.net...
>> Those are really alarming statitistics! In several instances, then,
>> are these studies saying that the MAJORITY of the cases
>> of pedophilia involve HETEROSEXUALS?? Or am I misreading
>> this? If 36% of the child molestors are homosexual, then the other
>> 64% are heterosexual, isn't that correct? Aram.
>> ===============================
>> "Stevie G" <ste...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>> >> I ask because it also flies in the face of everything I have learned
>on
>> >the
>> >> subject, and while I'm only a dabbler in abnormal psychology, I am at
>> >least
>> >> vaguely familiar with the topic.
>> >
>> >Some random crap on this subject:
(Random crap not being used to illustrate my point snipped)
>> >Several studies reveal that while no more than 2% of the male adults are
>> >homosexual, approximately 35% of pedophiles are homosexual.
If approximately 35% of pedophiles are homosexual, doesn't that mean
that 65% of pedophiles are heterosexual?
The first
>study
>> >done out of Toronto reviewed two sizeable studies and calculated that 34%
>> >and 32% of the offenders against children were homosexual.
Again, if 34% of offenders are homosexual, doesn't that mean that 64%
of offenders are heterosexual? And the same principle would apply to
the 32% figure, wouldn't it?
In the cases
>> >personally handled by the doctors, homosexuals accounted for 36% of their
>> >457 pedophiles.
Again, if 36% of the 457 pedophiles (164.52) personally handled by
doctors were homosexual, doesn't that mean that 64% of the 457
pedophiles (292.48) personally handled by doctors were heterosexual?
In the other study, a review of scientific and
>professional
>> >literature in 1985, the study concluded that homosexual acts were
>involved
>> >in 25% to 40% of the cases of child molestation. Source: K. Frued et
>al.,,
>> >"Pedophilia and heterosexuality vs. homosexuality," Journal of Sex and
>> >Marital Therapy 10 p. 193-200; also P. Cameron, "Homosexual molestation
>of
>> >children: Sexual interaction of teacher and pupil," Psychological
>Reports,
>> >Vol. 57 : pp.1227-36.
Here, it seems that the numbers, or percentages, if you will, are much
higher. If the percentages of homosexual involvement in cases of
child molestation are 25 to 40 percent of the totals, doesn't that
mean that in 60 to 75 percent of cases of child molestation, the
perpetrator was heterosexual?
>> >In a 10-state study, 33% of the male and 22% of the female teachers
>caught
>> >molesting students did so performing homosexual sex acts ( approximately
>> >2-3% of men are homosexuals and 1% of women are lesbians). Source:
>Cameron
>> >& Cameron," Do homosexual teachers pose a risk to pupils?" Journal of
>> >Psychology; vol.130: pp. 603-613.
Looks like 67% of the male and 78% of the female teachers caught
molesting students did so performing heterosexual sex acts.
>> >
>> >Blah blah blah blah - Can we get this out of RCC?
With great pleasure. Aram.
>> >
>>
>
Roy Wilson
Haroutunian) wrote:
>Those are really alarming statitistics! In several instances, then,
>are these studies saying that the MAJORITY of the cases
>of pedophilia involve HETEROSEXUALS?? Or am I misreading
>this? If 36% of the child molestors are homosexual, then the other
>64% are heterosexual, isn't that correct? Aram.
Two different feral deviants here. Child molestors are NOT
pedophiles in the eyes of the law or of psychiatry.
Child molestors repeatedly attack the *same* child, quite
often a younger sibling.
Pedophiles are like serial killers, going from one victim to
the next, rarely assaulting the same child twice.
Aram H. Haroutunian
are pedophiles. Some are not. There are two primary types of
pedophiles, IIRC. Fixated and regressed. One type is treatable.
The other is not. Some perpetrators of child sex molestation
concentrate on one child, others do not.
Also, intra-familial child sexual molestation is not the same as
extra-familial child molestation. It is of no great consequence to a
family to finger the neighborhood "flasher." It IS, however, very
difficult to deal with the "family secret." In cases of sibling
molestation, isn't it true that often, if not usually, the perpetrator
was sexually abused? It's been some time, but these are some of the
dynamics I recall from my experiences with a child abuse agency.
I would be interested to know what the child molestor/pedophile
differences have to do with the breakdown of homosexual/heterosexual
perpetrators by percent discussion. Are any of these prone to be coin
collectors? (to make some semblance of on-topicness here) :-) Aram.
====================================
Aram H. Haroutunian
Oooops. Dobac math? :-) That should read 66%, not 64%.
Ed. Stoebenau
wrote:
>> I ask because it also flies in the face of everything I have learned on
>the
>> subject, and while I'm only a dabbler in abnormal psychology, I am at
>least
>> vaguely familiar with the topic.
>
>Some random crap on this subject:
<snip: boy, you got that right>
>Blah blah blah blah - Can we get this out of RCC?
>
In a second, as I've decided I cannot let this go w/o a
challenge.
http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
and references listed in its bibliography
(http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_bibliography.html)
basically refute the statistical contentions listed. Basically,
homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to be
pedophiles or molesters. Common sense should tell you the
figures you listed are inaccurate
On the age of consent laws, the information you gave is
incomplete and as such utterly worthless. No evidence was given
to show that the changings (assuming the information given is in
fact accurate; that itself can be questioned; the only sources
for them I found on the web were to far right-wing organizations)
are to ages lower than the age of consent for heterosexual acts.
On the supreme court case, yes, the quote is accurate, but this
only means the decision is a low spot on the history of the court
(even lower than one decided late last year), and the dissent
should definitely be read, as it shows the majority opinion's was
based on specious reasoning and bigotry (though of course not in
those words). The decision can easily be found on the web, at
for example (boy you're gonna hate this url):
http://www2.law.cornell.edu/cgi-bin/foliocgi.exe/historic/query=[group+
478+u!2Es!2E+186!3A]^[group+citemenu!3A]^[level+case+citation!3
A]^[group+notes!3A]/doc/{@1}/hit_headings/words=4/hits_only?
--
Ed. Stoebenau
a #143
Roy Wilson
<rot13-r...@zvqjnl.hpuvpntb.rqh> wrote:
>>Blah blah blah blah - Can we get this out of RCC?
>>
>
>In a second, as I've decided I cannot let this go w/o a
>challenge.
>
>http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_molestation.html
>and references listed in its bibliography
>(http://psychology.ucdavis.edu/rainbow/html/facts_bibliography.html)
>basically refute the statistical contentions listed. Basically,
>homosexuals are no more likely than heterosexuals to be
>pedophiles or molesters.
Nice reverse there. All squares are rectangles, but not all
rectangles are squares.
The likelihood of any given homosexual being a pedophile or
molester is probably pretty close statistically to any heterosexual
being either.
The likelihood of any given pedophile being a homosexual is
far, far, higher statistically than of it being a heterosexual.
The likelihood of any given child molester being homosexual is
probably the same, possibly lower, than it being a heterosexual.
Can we talk about coins yet?
I just sold 36lbs of nickels for a grand....<G>
Bruce Butz
know was "would the Breen Encyclopedia
be re-issued?"
Argggggggghhhhh!!!!!!!!!
Sorry guys,i'll be more carefull next time.
Bruce B.
Stevie G
> know was "would the Breen Encyclopedia
> be re-issued?"
Wasn't Breen a convicted homosexual?
JSTONE9352
>> know was "would the Breen Encyclopedia
>> be re-issued?"
Nearly every posting about Breen's books
will drift into comments about his
personal life and the threads tend to go
on and on.
Fred A. Murphy
On 19-Jul-2001, Emperor...@email.com (Roy Wilson) wrote:
> Can we talk about coins yet?
>
> I just sold 36lbs of nickels for a grand....<G>
Upright, concert, or baby?
Fred A. Murphy
Yes, he was convicted, no he was not convicted of being a homosexual.
That's a very bad way to word things. Any heterosexual in prison is a
convicted heterosexual, right? Many of them are convicted coffee drinkers,
etc.
Generally, it is only correct to use "convicted _____" as meaning "convicted
of being a _____". This is as opposed to being an "alleged _____".