Causey's selling stolen coins
J. Craton
keep slandering your name Frank?
Frank Provasek wrote:
>
> ToddPollard wrote:
> >
> > Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
> > practices. Look at these ebay auctions
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337059658
> >
> > This coin is the paid for and owned property of the bidder. The bidder
> > sent it back to causeys because they misrepresnted the coin as
> > MS60 when the TRUE GRADE is AU. This coin, the STOLEN property of the
> > bidder, is being sold AGAIN by causeys HERE
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=366490570
> >
> > "you got some splainin' to do, Lucy"
>
> We offer a 5 day return period on auction coins. Meets or exceeds
> the standards in the business (Bowers and Merina gives only 3 days)
>
> The coin grades MS60 as described, but the buyer took it to some
> dealers in Boston, who offered to buy it as an AU. I seem to remember
> a unique 1866 no motto quarter being bought for $125 by "a major
> dealer."
>
> The buyer complained to us that we had "misrepresented" the coin, and
> wanted
> to return it. Since the return period had long passed, we said that we
> could not accept a return of this item. The buyer claims that he sent
> the
> payment late and only had ONE day to examine the coin...Guess
> what...late
> payment voids the return privilege. (stated in our terms, available on
> eBay,
> and standard practice by Bowers, Teletrade, etc)
>
> The buyer sent it back ANYWAY, and our girl opened the package and
> placed
> the coin on my desk.
>
> Since we have not had a situation like this on eBay, we posted the
> situation
> in r.c.c seeking advice and discussion. As usual, we were bashed by
> people who
> have never done business with us.
>
> The Texas Coin Dealers Association, of which we are founding members,
> and I
> serve on the board, advised us to send the package back unopened, Since
> that
> was not possible, the next best solution was to treat the situation as a
> liquidation. We would reauction the coin, and refund the first bidder
> from
> the proceeds, and bill him if there is any shortage. We are legally
> entitled
> to a COMMISSION for doing this, but we are applying 100% of the money to
> this buyers refund.
>
> And Todd, I really really suggest that you find something to do other
> than
> misrepresent my business practices. There is such a thing as slander,
> and
> I have received your emails that "the Internet is unregulated," But
> people
> can be and have been held responsible for their statements on the
> Internet
> which are not true. Just some advice.
>
> Frank Provasek
> Causey's Rare Coins
> 1806 Layton St.
> Fort Worth, TX 76117
> 817-831-0074
--
Jason Craton WINS #5
The Internet focal point for the "Hobby of Kings"
http://www.winsociety.org/
"I am certain it will be more agreeable to the citizens of the
United States to see the head of Liberty on their coin, than
the head of presidents." - George Washington
---------------------------
"I yam what I yam" -Popeye the Sailor Man
Mark Brooks
for business.
"PFDJR" <pf...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000626125645...@ng-fd1.aol.com...
> toddp...@aol.com (ToddPollard) wrote:
>
> >>> Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
> practices....<<<
>
> Hey Todd....get a life.
>
> You have obviously taken up the practice of Causey's bashing by making
some
> pretty inflamatory comments here. The previous instance, about a week ago,
was
> to accuse them of shilling based solely on repeat feedback. When I asked
you to
> provide proof you slithered away.
>
> I am not particularly happy with Frank's repeated airing of his dirty
laundry
> in this forum nor his handling of the current situation, but you have gone
too
> far.
>
> What Causey's has done by re-listing the coin is to "accept" the return.
Since
> they have no consignment agreement with this person they should now make
full
> restitution....regardless of the sale price in the new auction and chalk
it up
> to experience.
>
>
>
>
> +++++++++
> Phil DeMayo
> Member Coinmasters and ANA
> When bidding online always sit on your helmet
>
>
Nick Knight
>What Causey's has done by re-listing the coin is to "accept" the return.
>Since they have no consignment agreement with this person they should now
>make full restitution....regardless of the sale price in the new auction
>and chalk it up to experience.
Agreed. Or figure out how to pull the coin and get it back to the
original buyer. At this point, paying the refund is probably the only
realistic option.
Nick
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nick Knight <ni...@secant.com> http://nick.secant.com
Senior Software Engineer
Secant Technologies, Inc. http://www.secant.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
ToddPollard
Sue W
If Causey's did not supply a agreed upon value to the
original purchaser "customer" before the resale of the coin then a
court may be necessary to settle the problem. But public airing
of this type problem before settlement surely is a reason for caution.
Sue
Nick Knight wrote in message <39579bc9$2$avpx$mr2...@client.ce.news.psi.net>...
Ian Milne
elsewhere while you are at it!
While I do not pretend to act as a spokesperson for this NG, I for one
have had more than enough of this interminable crap that emanates re
Causeys, and yours is the final straw. It takes the biscuit!
You need to consider just what you have said here, as I can see a writ
(or worse) heading your way.
Crap like that just does not belong on this NG, and I do not mind
telling you so. PLEASE desist.
Ian
mikew
the center of a lot of bad Goomba....as a normal consumer i think i would
avoid dealing with them just for the hastles i have seen ... and frank its
nothing personal just track records....seems you have a lot of trouble
around you all the time...i could be wrong but it seems at least once a
week its "Causey Bashing hour"...that can't be good for your business..of
course its just my opinion and i could be wrong
ToddPollard <toddp...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20000626111849...@ng-mb1.aol.com...
Frank Provasek
>
> Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
> practices. Look at these ebay auctions
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337059658
>
> This coin is the paid for and owned property of the bidder. The bidder
> sent it back to causeys because they misrepresnted the coin as
> MS60 when the TRUE GRADE is AU. This coin, the STOLEN property of the
> bidder, is being sold AGAIN by causeys HERE
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=366490570
>
> "you got some splainin' to do, Lucy"
John Long
learning new phrases. Where does that saying come from?
John
On Mon, 26 Jun 2000 18:33:49 GMT, Ian Milne <imb...@cableinet.co.uk>
wrote:
>It takes the biscuit!
>
Frank Provasek
>
> I follow the newsgroup for information on the hobby....Seems that Causeys is
> the center of a lot of bad Goomba....as a normal consumer i think i would
> avoid dealing with them just for the hastles i have seen ... and frank its
> nothing personal just track records....seems you have a lot of trouble
> around you all the time...i could be wrong but it seems at least once a
> week its "Causey Bashing hour"...that can't be good for your business..of
> course its just my opinion and i could be wrong
The "bashing" doesn't have anything to do with the facts. Do you
not think we have checked before reauctioning this coin? When
someone buys something at auction, pays for it, then "dumps it
on your doorstep" expecting a refund. He is legally presumed
(Texas Law) to still have an ownership interest in it...BUT to
have also violated the terms of the auction. I can treat it as
a cancelled sale, and as such I can reauction it
(and get a commission, which I am forfeiting) and apply the
proceeds to his bid amount...but GENERALLY (especially if a
commission is charged) it will NOT be enough to cover a full
refund. In that case, he would get billed for the difference.
Causey's and Heritage are the only two Texas dealers (I know of)selling
on eBay who are also licensed auctioneers. We follow all the Texas
laws to protect consumers and bidders. Were we NOT following these
rules, I could legally KEEP the unauthorized returned item as a
GIFT.
Frank Provasek
PFDJR
>>> Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
practices....<<<
Hey Todd....get a life.
You have obviously taken up the practice of Causey's bashing by making some
pretty inflamatory comments here. The previous instance, about a week ago, was
to accuse them of shilling based solely on repeat feedback. When I asked you to
provide proof you slithered away.
I am not particularly happy with Frank's repeated airing of his dirty laundry
in this forum nor his handling of the current situation, but you have gone too
far.
What Causey's has done by re-listing the coin is to "accept" the return. Since
they have no consignment agreement with this person they should now make full
restitution....regardless of the sale price in the new auction and chalk it up
to experience.
Byron Reed - not the dead one
>Interesting point as the who owns the coin.
>
>If Causey's did not supply a agreed upon value to the
>
>original purchaser "customer" before the resale of the coin then a
>
>court may be necessary to settle the problem.
Exactly right. I don't think for a minute that Frank "stole" the coin. He did
make a poor choice to sell something that has questionable title.
I feel this poor decision would place the matter securely in civil court,
rather that criminal, BUT Frank should now have fair warning that the coin
might not be his to sell. Could his continuance of the auction with this
knowledge make the act criminal? It is a can of worms that Frank could
eliminate by simply refunding the man's money, regardless of who's at fault.
Yes, the collector may have tried to stretch the rules, but not to the extent
that Frank has.
BLReed
Frank Provasek
As explained MANY TIMES....this is perfectly legal. There are
clearly defined examples in the auctioneers "Gold Book" about
various situations...one is when someone trys to return an auction
item, and is refused, then the guy just leaves it on your doorstep.
Happens often in car auctions :) The auctioneer is allowed to
sell it and send the proceeds to the owner, but with administrative
fees and commission. (which we are waiving) and he can be
billed for the difference.
Larry Calder
Hang in there. We consider the source when seeing the "Causey bashing">
.
Larry (BOZO)
If it takes a chicken and a half, a day and a half to lay an egg and a half,
why doesn't the mint use chickens to lay the Brass Buck. An egg... is an
egg... is an egg(unless it is a brown egg, then it is called "GOLDEN")
ToddEStan
Why don't you start slabbing the coins you sell? Besides the fact that
you'll realize more money for the coin (on eBay at least), you could
also avoid conflicts like this. If the coin is slabbed as a MS60, and
the buyer thinks it's AU55 (or whatever) then the buyer can't blast you
for overgrading. They could either return the coin, or take it up with
the grading company.
Todd
--
Spam filters in place. If you are accidently blocked, remove nospam.
Ian Milne
Even so, I much prefer Franks positive contributions to this NG on coins
and coin collecting than the posts concerning the `chancers' he has had
to deal with as a result of his `ebay' ventures.
Ian
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net
On 26-Jun-2000, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> There are
> clearly defined examples in the auctioneers "Gold Book" about
> various situations...one is when someone trys to return an auction
> item, and is refused, then the guy just leaves it on your doorstep.
I don't care if you're the Best Little Auctioneer in Texas, that don't mean
crap. You're not auctioning in TX, you're selling on ebay. In event of a
problem, you fall first under ebay jurisdiction, then under the laws of
California. Are you also a licensed auctioneer in CA?
--
Have you been told to go to Hell? Looking forward to the trip?
Don't forget to take along spending money! They don't take American
Express,unless you have an asbestos card. We have what you need, here:
http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aol/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=353782938
Nick Knight
>The "bashing" doesn't have anything to do with the facts. Do you not
>think we have checked before reauctioning this coin? When someone buys
>something at auction, pays for it, then "dumps it on your doorstep"
>expecting a refund. He is legally presumed (Texas Law) to still have an
>ownership interest in it...BUT to
You're not dealing with Texas Law. You're not dealing with an auction,
really. You're certainly not dealing with an auction that was held in
Texas. You also have failed to tell us HOW YOU KNOW he didn't receive the
coin on June 19th, as claimed. If you don't know this for a fact, then
you're fighting a losing battle.
The fact that you've gone this route is bad news. Bad news for you. Just
how much, and for how long, are you willing to pay for what could have
been a $100 refund? You've turned me off, but honestly, I've never seen
you offer anything in my area of interest anyway. However, if you ever
do, I'll have to consider bidding carefully, if at all.
You may have had some claim to "being right" in the beginning (but I'm
still waiting to see what the date on the delivery confirmation says),
however, you've steered wrong now, IMO.
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net
On 26-Jun-2000, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> The "bashing" doesn't have anything to do with the facts. Do you
> not think we have checked before reauctioning this coin? When
> someone buys something at auction, pays for it, then "dumps it
> on your doorstep" expecting a refund. He is legally presumed
> (Texas Law) to still have an ownership interest in it...BUT to
> have also violated the terms of the auction.
As long as we're dealing with "facts", please consider these:
You are not selling these at an auction in Texas, where you are a licensed
auctioneer and Texas auction law applies. Thus, you can forget about any
application of Texas law in this instance.
You sold on ebay, and are subject to their rules and regulations. These
don't include anything about reauctioning a paid-for returned coin without
the current owner's permission, and refunding the buyer's money based on the
sales price, last I checked.
If any auction law applies beyond ebay's rules, it would be California law,
and I don't recall you mentioning anything about being licensed as an
auctioneer in California.
> Causey's and Heritage are the only two Texas dealers (I know of) selling
> on eBay who are also licensed auctioneers.
Heritage had a special deal with ebay which allowed them to use ebay's
equipment while allowing ebay's bidders to bid in a Heritage auction without
having to become Heritage customers. Last I heard, you have no such deal.
Their deal may have allowed the auctions to be conducted under Texas law,
with ebay providing the connectivity only. You are just another dealer
selling on ebay, unless you've got some deal going that you've never
mentioned before.
If the consortium who dug up the shipwreck treasure made a special agreement
with ebay which allowed them to sell the items at auction as well as in a
retail store in Columbus, that does not make me on a par with them, just
because we both happen to be licensed central Ohio retailers who sell on
ebay.
Nick Knight
at 03:23 PM, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> said:
>As explained MANY TIMES....this is perfectly legal. There are clearly
>defined examples in the auctioneers "Gold Book" about various
>situations...one is when someone trys to return an auction item, and is
>refused, then the guy just leaves it on your doorstep. Happens often in
>car auctions :) The auctioneer is allowed to sell it and send the
>proceeds to the owner, but with administrative fees and commission.
>(which we are waiving) and he can be billed for the difference.
I don't see you as "the auctioneer". Did you earn the official commission
for this sale? Well, perhaps second hand, but eBay is the auctioneer.
I've never heard of the "Gold Book", but whatdoyabet it has no precedence
in this case. And I doubt it's legal, but who cares. What's he going to
do, sue you for $100. The damage already done to your business has
already exceeded that. You need to remedy this issue before it gets any
worse.
You don't see how this is going to cost you far more now? This is just
poor customer service, if you ask me (and even if you don't ask me <smirk>
:).
Mike Benveniste
>Interesting point as the who owns the coin.
It's time to play that wonderful game, "Who wants to start a
U.C.C. flame war? (tm)" Here we go, but remember this is not
a legal opinion and as always, no wagering.
Assuming the buyer kept the coin five days and tried to
return it (as claimed by Causey's), the buyer is trying to
revoke an acceptance of the contract. This is possible under
UCC Section 2-608(a)(2) reading:
(a) The buyer may revoke acceptance of a lot or commercial
unit whose nonconformity substantially impairs its value to
the buyer if the buyer has accepted it [...]
(2) without discovery of such nonconformity if the buyer's
acceptance was reasonably induced either by the difficulty
of discovery before acceptance or by the seller's
assurances.
I challenge anyone to determine from the scan if this coin
is AU or Unc. The seller claims no wear, the buyer claims
wear. Given Mr. Provasek's claim of grade and retail value,
the "reasonably induced by seller's assurances" test goes
to the buyer. (Where did that $210 retail come from, anyway?)
But given that the difference in value between AU and BU 60 is
so small, the "substantial impairment" test may well go to the
seller.
If the buyer did in fact accept the coin by keeping it >5
days and was unjustified in revocation of acceptance, he
has breached the contract. Then UCC Section 2-706 comes into
play. It reads:
(a) In an appropriate case involving breach by the buyer,
the seller may resell the goods concerned or the undelivered
balance thereof. Where the resale is made in good faith and
in a commercially reasonable manner the seller may recover
the difference between the contract price and the resale
price together with any incidental and consequential damages
provided under Section 2-710, but less expenses saved in
consequence of the buyer's breach.
There are four possible scenarios, all of which lead to
the conclusion that Causey's now owns the coin:
1. The return was valid since the buyer had the coin under
5 days. Causey owes the buyer a refund and is selling the
coin as they would any other piece of inventory.
2. The return was valid as a revocation of acceptance. Same
result as in Scenario 1.
3. The return was invalid and Causey's resale is in good
faith. Causey's actions, including withholding the refund
until the completion of the second sale, are justified.
4. The return was invalid, but Causey's relisting is later
found not to be in good faith due to the dropping of the claimed
retail price. The results of the second auction are discarded
and the fair market value of the coin is used instead. This
would likely result in close to a full refund for the buyer.
Of course, since the new auction is already up to 76 bucks,
any sort of legal analysis is moot since even a small claims
filing costs more than $25. This will get fought out with
letters to the BBB and negative feedback and (perhaps) a credit
card company dispute resolution process.
>But public airing of this type problem before settlement surely
>is a reason for caution.
Unlike some previous discussions, I can't make a business case
for slabbing this coin. Even though I think Mr. Provasek
may well be in the legal right on this one, I think Causey's
may end up paying a higher long-term price than if he hadn;t
said a word, but granted the refund.
--
Michael Benveniste -- m...@webwhat.com
Any comments or statements made are not necessarily those of any
employer or client, their subsidiaries, or affiliates. Anything
following this sig is added by Remarq.
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
crazycub
>>
>> This coin is the paid for and owned property of the bidder. The bidder
>> sent it back to causeys because they misrepresnted the coin as
>> MS60 when the TRUE GRADE is AU. This coin, the STOLEN property of the
>> bidder, is being sold AGAIN by causeys HERE
If you returned the coin, then you yourself initiated moves to elimate
yourself as the owner.
>causeys wrote:
>
>The coin grades MS60 as described, but the buyer took it to some
>dealers in Boston, who offered to buy it as an AU. I seem to remember
>a unique 1866 no motto quarter being bought for $125 by "a major
>dealer."
The buyer, todd, is a complete fool. It is common practice for
several dealers to deliberately UNDERGRADE a coin, presenting that as
their professional gradining opinion, in hopes of suckering the seller
into a lower selling price, and hence a higher profit margin to the
buyer.
I had the direct experience at a coin show of a Morgan I had in a flip
that was identical to one that one dealer was selling at MS63 for some
nifty profit margin (deserved or not, not the point). The point is
that I had it "appraised" by another dealer at a diffferent booth, who
wanted to give me all of $8 bucks for it. Telling him that another
dealer had the exact coin selling at an MS63 only got me into an
arguement which I had to walk away from.
Frank Provasek
>
> I follow the newsgroup for information on the hobby....Seems that Causeys is
> the center of a lot of bad Goomba....as a normal consumer i think i would
> avoid dealing with them just for the hastles i have seen ... and frank its
> nothing personal just track records.
I would direct you to our eBay feedback...check not only the comments,
but look
at some of the buyers' other purchases. We are selling mostly to
serious collectors, not trying to screw newbies.
http://cgi2.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewFeedback&userid=causeys
Frank Provasek
> You're not dealing with Texas Law. You're not dealing with an auction,
> really. You're certainly not dealing with an auction that was held in
> Texas. You also have failed to tell us HOW YOU KNOW he didn't receive the
> coin on June 19th, as claimed. If you don't know this for a fact, then
> you're fighting a losing battle.
>
We know it for a fact...the first post I made stated that he had it for
3
weeks.
>
>
>
Where IS the sale? eBay claims to be only a "venue." The merchandise is
IN
Texas. The payment was SENT to Texas. The item was mailed U.S. Mail FROM
Texas.
The item was sent back TO Texas....The Texas Department of Licensing and
Regulation issued a letter some time back that online auctions meeting
these
points are considered occuring in Texas. I have to follow Texas law.
Otherwise
you would be having licensed auctioneers selling stuff online through
eBay to
get around the rules. In contrast, Teletrade auctions, where the
coins are physically sent to New York, mailed from New York, payment
sent to
New York, are, not surprisingly, considered as New York auctions.
>
> The fact that you've gone this route is bad news. Bad news for you. Just
> how much, and for how long, are you willing to pay for what could have
> been a $100 refund? You've turned me off, but honestly, I've never seen
> you offer anything in my area of interest anyway. However, if you ever
> do, I'll have to consider bidding carefully, if at all.
>
> You may have had some claim to "being right" in the beginning (but I'm
> still waiting to see what the date on the delivery confirmation says),
> however, you've steered wrong now, IMO.
>
>
Two of my local store customers have seen the coin..they will bid at
least what
it sold for the first time. The guy will get all of his money back. In 7
days.
This coin was consigned for us to place on eBay by Au-Ar Numismatics, a
regular
display advertiser in World Coin News. They are listed in the CDN
directory.
This company specializes in foreign, and sends its better US material to
us for
placement in our live auctions or on eBay.
Au-Ar was paid a flat 90% of the sale price. I am required to keep
auction proceeds
in a separate segregated account. Payments into and out of. Lately we
have been selling
a number of $10 and $20 coins.
Since this refund/resale is an irregular transaction, I either (1) wait
until the money from the
resale comes in, or (2) pay the refund now with money that is supposed
to go to other consignors,
(technically illegal) OR (3) pay the guy out of my own funds. I guess
since I am the manager
for a real business, I need to follow the law and standard auction rules
and pick (1).
When you see those fancy auction catalogs from the big houses, remember
the auctioneer is responsible
for protecting the CONSIGNOR...The fiduciary responsibiity is to the
consignor, not the bidder. Just like
people who call a Realtor and expect him to get them the best possible
price for a house.
The Realtor works for the seller, and can get in big trouble for making
consessions to
the buyer, when their legal obligation is to the seller.
Welcome to the real world.
Frank
Frank Provasek
long as we're dealing with "facts", please consider these:
>
> You are not selling these at an auction in Texas, where you are a licensed
> auctioneer and Texas auction law applies. Thus, you can forget about any
> application of Texas law in this instance.
>
> You sold on ebay, and are subject to their rules and regulations. These
> don't include anything about reauctioning a paid-for returned coin without
> the current owner's permission, and refunding the buyer's money based on the
> sales price, last I checked.
>
> If any auction law applies beyond ebay's rules, it would be California law,
> and I don't recall you mentioning anything about being licensed as an
> auctioneer in California.
As explained earlier, as a licensed auctioneer in Texas (11259) I MUST
follow the same rules online as with local auctions. Otherwise,
auctioneers
could get around the rules by going online of through eBay. These rules
actually provide more protection to bidders than the average eBay
seller.
For example, funds paid to me for eBay purchases are SEGREGATED. If
Causey's
Rare Coins goes bankrupt or closes, the money goes back to the buyer.
You guys
go bankrupt, and the buyer of undelivered merchandise stands in line
with all
your other creditors. If I accept a coin for consignment and I run off
with the
coin or the money, a state fund that I pay into will make good.
Texas has very strong consumer protection laws, and has made it clear
that they
cannot be skirted by selling through the Internet. Texas cracked down on
automobile
sales through the Internet, since all Texas new retail sales must occur
through
licensed auto dealers.
This string started with my asking how to handle a coin someone returned
after the
return period expired. I got some valuable advice, and after considering
that plus
the legal requirements as an auctioneer and advice of my state trade
association,
I made a decision and posted that decision in this newsgroup, that those
options
might be helpful to others.
Now the subject is "Causey's selling stolen coins," and every business
practice
we do is WRONG, from reauctioning this "stolen" coin, to using MS
numbers on
raw coins we sell, for not slabbing EVERY coin, how much we charge for
shipping
...it's ridiculous and unfair!
If my attempts to discuss problems and find possible solutions results
in this
crap, consider my participation in the future to be very small.
Frank Provasek
Nick Knight
>We know it for a fact...the first post I made stated that he had it for 3
>weeks.
No, the first notion of time I saw read "there's no way it could take 17
days to get to this fellow". And yet it could. Easily. I'll go back
and check on Dejanews "the very first post", but man I hope there's more
to it that just this guess.
>Where IS the sale? eBay claims to be only a "venue." The merchandise is
The sale is in CA. What time did it close? Was it posted in Central time
or Pacific time. Who cares where the merchandise was ... I order from IBM
in the US all the time. Believe it or not, they ship my software,
usually, from Amsterdam or Ireland. That doesn't mean the sale is
recorded there.
This is all a secondary point. It hardly matters what's technically
correct here. You've caused a stink over $100 and it's not making you
look good. In California, Texas or even here in Ohio.
>Two of my local store customers have seen the coin..they will bid at
>least what
>it sold for the first time. The guy will get all of his money back. In 7
That seems like the "right" thing, but you've still created doubt about
what you're doing. Obviously not in your own eyes, but those aren't the
eyes that matter to your business in the long run. You should have sent
the coin back, and/or refunded his money on the spot. Whether or not your
move is "legally correct", and I'll never believe that it is, it just
looks bad.
>This coin was consigned for us to place on eBay by Au-Ar Numismatics, a
>regular
>display advertiser in World Coin News. They are listed in the CDN
>directory.
How is this pertainent to anything? Answer: it's not.
>Au-Ar was paid a flat 90% of the sale price. I am required to keep
>auction proceeds
>in a separate segregated account. Payments into and out of. Lately we
>have been selling
>a number of $10 and $20 coins.
Yes, yes, and allenle or whoever it is is a secret agent spy for some
oddball estate with IRS agents in his pocket and the department of defense
investigating anyone that causes a fluf. He claims he must follow rules,
too. AFAIC, if you're selling on eBay, the contract is between YOU and
the BUYER. Third parties and what-not schemes are your business and I
wouldn't care what's going on behind the scenes. YOU are the part that's
responsible.
>(3) pay the guy out of my own funds.
Gee, why does this sound like the most logical, correct approach to me?
All the others seem like excuses. Money is money, and if anyone even
cares about a $100 "irregularity", explain it to them. It wouldn't have
been hard to understand.
>When you see those fancy auction catalogs from the big houses, remember
>the auctioneer is responsible
This isn't about those fancy catalogs from an auction house. You claimed
to have an item for sale, and bidders bid on it. The fact that you're
"consigning" the item means nothing to me. I'm either buying it, from
you, or I'm not. I don't care who actually owns the stuff in a garage
sale, I'm paying the person collecting the money and that's who I go to if
they've misinformed me about my purchase.
>Welcome to the real world.
I dunno, we still seem to be living in different Real Worlds. You keep
justifying your actions, and I just keep shaking my head.
My opinion remains. You should have just refunded the money (or sent the
coin back, in either case keeping it private) and not soiled your own
business image. Like it or not, that's where we're at.
Frank Provasek
> States are not allowed to regulate interstate commerce. Does Texas have a
> sales tax? If it does, you cannot charge it to people who receive goods in
> other states, no matter what Texas law says.
>
You think we don't know this?
>
> You're starting to go pretty far afield. I'm beginning to think you should
> send potential bidders a book: "Dealing with Causey's: My First Book of
> Texas Law."
>
We would hope every dealer would follow the law
>
> When you and the bidder signed up you your user agreement includes "This
> Agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the State of
> California as such laws are applied to agreements entered into and to be
> performed entirely within California between California residents."
.
That's the agreement between eBay and registered users, not between
bidders.
>
> I believe you referred to eBay as "only a venue" (borrowing their own
> wording). Merriam-Webster says a venue is "1 a : the place or county in
> which take place the alleged events from which a legal action arises."
>
> So tell me eBay isn't saying the venue in a legal action is California, not
> Texas or New York.
3.eBay is Only a Venue.
3.1 Overview. Our site acts as the venue for sellers to list items
(or, as appropriate, solicit
offers to buy) and buyers to bid on items. We are not involved in
the actual transaction
between buyers and sellers. As a result, we have no control over
the quality, safety or legality
of the items advertised, the truth or accuracy of the listings, the
ability of sellers to sell items
or the ability of buyers to buy items. We cannot ensure that a
buyer or seller will actually
complete a transaction.
How can California law apply to a transaction if eBay is not
involved in the actual transaction?
Paul Matus
"Frank Provasek" <cau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote in message
news:395803...@ix.netcom.com...
> Nick Knight wrote:
> >
> > In <3957B0...@ix.netcom.com>, on 06/26/2000
> > at 02:35 PM, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> said:
>
> > You're not dealing with Texas Law. You're not dealing with an auction,
> > really. You're certainly not dealing with an auction that was held in
> > Texas. You also have failed to tell us HOW YOU KNOW he didn't receive
the
> > coin on June 19th, as claimed. If you don't know this for a fact, then
> > you're fighting a losing battle.
> >
> 3
> weeks.
> >
> >
> >
> Texas. The payment was SENT to Texas. The item was mailed U.S. Mail FROM
> Texas.
> The item was sent back TO Texas....The Texas Department of Licensing and
> Regulation issued a letter some time back that online auctions meeting
> these
> points are considered occuring in Texas. I have to follow Texas law.
> Otherwise
> you would be having licensed auctioneers selling stuff online through
> eBay to
> get around the rules. In contrast, Teletrade auctions, where the
> coins are physically sent to New York, mailed from New York, payment
> sent to
> New York, are, not surprisingly, considered as New York auctions.
>
Considered by whom?
Do _your_ auctions clearly state that disputes will be decided under Texas
law if the buyer is not in Texas? Most contracts between people in different
states clearly specify the State of jurisdiction.
States are not allowed to regulate interstate commerce. Does Texas have a
sales tax? If it does, you cannot charge it to people who receive goods in
other states, no matter what Texas law says.
You're starting to go pretty far afield. I'm beginning to think you should
send potential bidders a book: "Dealing with Causey's: My First Book of
Texas Law."
When you and the bidder signed up you your user agreement includes "This
Agreement shall be governed in all respects by the laws of the State of
California as such laws are applied to agreements entered into and to be
performed entirely within California between California residents."
I believe you referred to eBay as "only a venue" (borrowing their own
Peter T. Davis
I wouldn't say that Causey's is the center of any more "bad Goomba" than
any other business. The key difference here is that Frank likes to come
into this public forum whining about, or asking for advice concerning,
difficult situations he faces. Every business faces difficult situations
such as Frank brings to this forum. Just because 99.999% of business
owners try to keep these issues private, doesn't mean that Causey's gets
more than their fair share of "bad Goomba"...
Peter
mikew <merl...@mindspring.com> wrote:
: I follow the newsgroup for information on the hobby....Seems that Causeys is
: the center of a lot of bad Goomba....as a normal consumer i think i would
: avoid dealing with them just for the hastles i have seen ... and frank its
: nothing personal just track records....seems you have a lot of trouble
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net
On 26-Jun-2000, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Two of my local store customers have seen the coin..they will bid at
> least what it sold for the first time.
> Welcome to the real world.
Welcome indeed. I have some Real World questions for you:
1) How much is your time worth to Causey's? How many hours of that time
have you spent posting about this problem, relisting the coin, and replying
to various comments made by RCCers?
2) Since you now know that the coin will sell for more than the original
buyer paid for it, would it really bankrupt Causey's to just go ahead and
refund his money, rather than give him further delays to add to his negative
opinion?
3) How much money do you think this little escapade has cost Causey's in
lost future business from people looking at your numerous "methinks he doth
protest too much" posts?
4) How much good will and future profits has this cost Causey's from people
who don't like the idea that you felt it was legitimate to post a private
email on Usenet?
5) Do you see where it might be less expensive, less nerve-wracking, and
more professional to keep any future incidents of this sort within your own
doors, or at worst, within a set of advisors, instead of spread out all over
the world's bandwidth?
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net
On 26-Jun-2000, Frank Provasek <cau...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> If my attempts to discuss problems and find possible solutions results
> in this crap, consider my participation in the future to be very small.
The first Causey's post that I recall was one where you admitted to cleaning
a coin or two, and that caused quite a stir.
Most of your recent posts that I recall have been related to all the
problems you seem to have with people on ebay, followed by replies about how
Causey's seems to draw all the nutcases.
I don't think for a moment that Causey's is any more of a fruitcake magnet
than any other dealer, but the real difference seems to be that when other
people run into problems, we handle them quietly, while Causey's seems to
think that every refund is something that has to be examined, discussed, and
approved by the gang down at RCC.
Without exception, every post you have made along these lines "to discuss
problems and find possible solutions" has indeed "resulted in this crap",
so one must ask at what point you will realize that this is the likely
result of such "discussions"? If that is not the desired result, then maybe
the discussions should never be started.
There is also the question of whether this is the correct forum in which to
be discussing such matters. I'm not saying it's off-topic, simply that the
makeup of this group is going to result in so much static in the answers
that they're not really going to be that valuable to your goal of finding
solutions under the best of circumstances.
You claim to be scrupulously fair and honest. I see nothing to indicate
anything to the contrary. Why, then, do you feel the need to come runnning
to RCC every time you have a problem? An honest man KNOWS he is doing the
right thing, continues doing it to the best of his ability, and lets the
chips fall where they may.
Sometimes that may still result in negative feedback. The person who has
never been blackballed by SOMEONE has never done anything worth doing. Life
goes on. If you're doing things right, it will show, and people will
continue to deal with you, even with an occasional negative feedback.
Hershel Eacret
and end the bickering this shit is going no where.
"ToddEStan" <todd...@nospam.visi.com> wrote in message
news:3957CC64...@nospam.visi.com...
ToddPollard
while Saint Frankie-poo claims that the auction is in TEXAS???/
ToddPollard
>From: "Nick Knight" ni...@secant.com
>Date: 6/26/00 12:06 PM CST
>Message-id: <39579bc9$2$avpx$mr2...@client.ce.news.psi.net>
>
>In <20000626125645...@ng-fd1.aol.com>, on 06/26/2000
>
>>What Causey's has done by re-listing the coin is to "accept" the return.
>>Since they have no consignment agreement with this person they should now
>>make full restitution....regardless of the sale price in the new auction
>>and chalk it up to experience.
>
>original buyer. At this point, paying the refund is probably the only
>realistic option.
>
>Nick
They didn't do it. The auction is still on.
Safe harbor is investigating!!!!!
ToddPollard
>Date: 6/26/00 12:38 PM CST
>Message-id: <8j87t5$nn4$1...@slb6.atl.mindspring.net>
>
>I follow the newsgroup for information on the hobby....Seems that Causeys is
>the center of a lot of bad Goomba....as a normal consumer i think i would
>avoid dealing with them just for the hastles i have seen ... and frank its
>nothing personal just track records....seems you have a lot of trouble
>around you all the time...i could be wrong but it seems at least once a
>week its "Causey Bashing hour"...that can't be good for your business..of
>course its just my opinion and i could be wrong
Causey's cleans coins, lies about it
Doesnt slab their coins
Misgrades coins
Misrepresents the value of coins
Sells coins that are not theirs
Claims they make no mistakes
Claims they are honest
Claims they are ethical
Overcharges on shipping
Avoid them at all costs!
ToddPollard
>Date: 6/26/00 7:47 PM CST
>Message-id: <395807...@ix.netcom.com>
>If my attempts to discuss problems and find possible solutions results
>in this
>crap, consider my participation in the future to be very small.
>
>Frank Provasek
>
Frank, you can't hide behind all this
"we are just following the law" bullshit.
ToddPollard
>Date: 6/27/00 8:09 AM CST
>Message-id: <iS065.698$NG.1...@nnrp2.sbc.net>
>
>BA hum bug to this subject why don't people get a life. Take out the trash
>and end the bickering this shit is going no where.
What about the Carson City dollar you said was MS66 and ANACS graded it MS60
artificial toning??? Huh, Frankie?
ToddPollard
>Date: 6/26/00 8:46 PM CST
>Message-id: <39581a73$1$avpx$mr2...@client.ne.news.psi.net>
>
>>We know it for a fact...the first post I made stated that he had it for 3
>>weeks.
>
>days to get to this fellow". And yet it could. Easily. I'll go back
>and check on Dejanews "the very first post", but man I hope there's more
>to it that just this guess.
>
Did you catch Saint Frank in some more of his lies?
F. M. Benton
selling stolen merchandise is illegal. One would do well to
avaoid Causey's
Tom Rogers
can be condoned. I am sending email about this to eBay and the ANA.
Tom Rogers
ToddPollard wrote:
>
> Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
> practices. Look at these ebay auctions
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337059658
>
> This coin is the paid for and owned property of the bidder. The bidder
> sent it back to causeys because they misrepresnted the coin as
> MS60 when the TRUE GRADE is AU. This coin, the STOLEN property of the
> bidder, is being sold AGAIN by causeys HERE
>
> http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=366490570
>
> "you got some splainin' to do, Lucy"
Larry Calder
Don't pay any attention to posts from the above. he has some imagined problem
with Frank and has nothing better to do than badmouth him.
Disregard him and maybe he will crawl back under the bridge
Larry Calder
Larry Calder
I believe ebay does not pay attention to non user mail. What is YOUR ebay user
Larry Calder
Todd:
What is YOUR ebay user ID?
Inquisitive minds want to know.
David Ryan
refund. One would do well not to misuse terms.
--
2000 is NOT the 21st century. 2001 is. You can look it up at U.S.
Naval Observatory http://aa.usno.navy.mil/AA/faq/docs/millennium.html
"Carthage must be destroyed!" Cato the Elder, inventor of dot sigs
Mike Locke
Actually, ebay doesn't pay attention to user mail either.
I spotted two obvious counterfeit California gold coins (not tokens, but
illegally made denominated denominated COUNTERFEITS that are listed and
illustrated as such in David Doering's book) selling for about $200 each on
Ebay. Safeharbor sent me a reply that in summary said "we don't care, we
don't have to". We will only investigate counterfeit items if there is a
complaint from the manufacturer?!
--
S'later, Mike Locke loc...@scrserv.com
Mike is EAC #4357, LSCC #1636, JRCS #841, ANA #R-170301, CCS #F11
SPPN life member, Australian N.S. #1747, CNS #19309
Visit http://users.scronline.com/lockem for Calgold info and other stuff
Larry Calder <lecalder...@aol.comn> wrote in message
news:20000627181851...@ng-fo1.aol.com...
> >From: Tom Rogers tro...@springmail.com
>
> I believe ebay does not pay attention to non user mail. What is YOUR ebay
user
> ID?
Brian Harmon
<toddp...@aol.com> wrote:
> >Subject: Re: Causey's selling stolen coins
> >From: "Hershel Eacret" eac...@yahoo.com
> >Date: 6/27/00 8:09 AM CST
> >Message-id: <iS065.698$NG.1...@nnrp2.sbc.net>
> >
> >BA hum bug to this subject why don't people get a life. Take out the trash
> >and end the bickering this shit is going no where.
>
>
> What about the Carson City dollar you said was MS66 and ANACS graded it MS60
> artificial toning??? Huh, Frankie?
First off, you're replying to someone named Herschel, not "Frankie".
Secondly, is it possible that ANACS is wrong? Given the texas-sized
chip on your shoulder, why should we believe what you're telling us,
particularly since your attacks on Frank are study in machine-gun
histrionics?
I think understand now why I was rebuffed when I asked dealers to
'tell us their story.' I'm sorry I asked!
--
Brian Harmon <har...@msg.ucsf.edu>
==================================
WWS
Brian Harmon wrote:
> I think understand now why I was rebuffed when I asked dealers to
> 'tell us their story.' I'm sorry I asked!
On the flip side, now you know that all you've gotta do is
hang around here, and the stories will come to you!
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
It may be that your sole purpose in life is
simply to serve as a warning to others.
Westman
Larry Calder wrote in message <20000627181851...@ng-fo1.aol.com>...
m...@mcfi.org
toddp...@aol.com (ToddPollard) wrote:
> So where is the auction really held? Some claim eBay in California,
> while Saint Frankie-poo claims that the auction is in TEXAS???/
There's some good news and some bad news about that. First, the
bad news. I don't know. Now the good news, it doesn't really
matter in this case. Ready for a bunch more non-legal-opinion
legal mumbo jumbo? Here we go.
Here's why it doesn't matter. This transaction is governed by the
Uniform Commercial Code, Section 2. Every state except Louisiana
has incorporated at least this part of the U.C.C. in their state
statutes. Virtually every court recognizes the need for consistent
and predictable interpretation of the U.C.C., so the entire body
of law tends to blend. If you wish, you can compare the various
versions at:
http://capitol.tlc.state.tx.us/statutes/codes/BC000002.html
ftp://leginfo.public.ca.gov/pub/code/com/02001-03000/
http://www.state.ma.us/legis/laws/mgl/gl-106-2-toc.htm
But let's assume for some arcane reason it did matter. Causey's
could have put a clause in the T&C specifying Texas law, but
it didn't. In the biz, this creates what's called a "Choice of
Law" problem. The plaintiff in a case such as this one could
file a lawsuit in Texas, California, or Massachusetts courts.
If the amount at issue was a couple of orders of magnitude higher,
you could add the Federal Court system to the list. While the
choice of jurisdiction dictates the choice of procedural law, it
doesn't dictate the choice of substantive law. So you can end up
with a Massachusetts judge applying Massachusetts procedures but
ruling on the basis of California or Texas law.
Eyes glazed yet? Don't worry, this next one will get you.
Different U.S. states follow different rules for determining
choice of law. A significant minority of states follow a
"vested rights" test. Under that test, the law of the "place
of performance" would rule. Since the attempted revocation of
acceptance took place in Massachusetts, it's likely that MA
law would apply.
Alas, the majority of states, including Massachusetts, Texas,
and California follow a "most significant relationship" test.
Several of my professors long ago pointed out that this isn't
a rule at all. Depending on who was paying me, I could make
a legitimate argument for MA, TX, or CA law to apply.
In short, there are no good guidelines here, Choice of Law
on the Internet is a "hot" academic issue right now, with
the general realization that traditional analysis (as above)
does not yield very good results.
--
Michael Benveniste -- m...@webwhat.com / m...@mcfi.org
Any comments or statements made are not
necessarily those of any employer or client.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Teel Adams
with Louisville Numismatic (for example, nothing personal), and I can
either take them to small claims court or file a local claim.
But these interstate transaction, in the past only near state or large
transaction were occurring. Now, I have a small claim dispute with a
person in Utah, what can we do?
It would seem in a rational world, companys like teletrade and Ebay would
work hard to produce their internal conflict resolution. In a rational
world, not an ebay that relies on the great fooler theory to handle
fraud.
JSTONE9352
>This Causeys thing is getting as silly as the lallen thing
>
The Elian thing is coming to an end today
as he is flying back to Cuba right now.
The Causey's thread may go on forever
in one form or another.
@ncweb.com robert ivancic / patricia smiciklas
or through the mail.....personally, if the coin was overgraded, i believe
the seller should be tied up and fed to the wolverines. if the seller truly
believes that a coin grades out at ms-60, then he/she should be happy to
take it back and refund the buyers money, and then resell it AT the original
price. the question i ask is, WHY did the coin in question have a drop of
$60 in "retail"?news:39577C...@ix.netcom.com...
> ToddPollard wrote:
> >
> > Causey's has stepped too far with there questionable illegal business
> > practices. Look at these ebay auctions
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=337059658
> >
> > This coin is the paid for and owned property of the bidder. The bidder
> > sent it back to causeys because they misrepresnted the coin as
> > MS60 when the TRUE GRADE is AU. This coin, the STOLEN property of the
> > bidder, is being sold AGAIN by causeys HERE
> >
> > http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=366490570
> >
> > "you got some splainin' to do, Lucy"
>
>
> the standards in the business (Bowers and Merina gives only 3 days)
>
> The coin grades MS60 as described, but the buyer took it to some
> dealers in Boston, who offered to buy it as an AU. I seem to remember
> a unique 1866 no motto quarter being bought for $125 by "a major
> dealer."
>
> The buyer complained to us that we had "misrepresented" the coin, and
> wanted
> to return it. Since the return period had long passed, we said that we
> could not accept a return of this item. The buyer claims that he sent
> the
> payment late and only had ONE day to examine the coin...Guess
> what...late
> payment voids the return privilege. (stated in our terms, available on
> eBay,
> and standard practice by Bowers, Teletrade, etc)
>
> The buyer sent it back ANYWAY, and our girl opened the package and
> placed
> the coin on my desk.
>
> Since we have not had a situation like this on eBay, we posted the
> situation
> in r.c.c seeking advice and discussion. As usual, we were bashed by
> people who
> have never done business with us.
>
> The Texas Coin Dealers Association, of which we are founding members,
> and I
> serve on the board, advised us to send the package back unopened, Since
> that
> was not possible, the next best solution was to treat the situation as a
> liquidation. We would reauction the coin, and refund the first bidder
> from
> the proceeds, and bill him if there is any shortage. We are legally
> entitled
> to a COMMISSION for doing this, but we are applying 100% of the money to
> this buyers refund.
>
> And Todd, I really really suggest that you find something to do other
> than
> misrepresent my business practices. There is such a thing as slander,
> and
> I have received your emails that "the Internet is unregulated," But
> people
> can be and have been held responsible for their statements on the
> Internet
> which are not true. Just some advice.
>
> Frank Provasek
> Causey's Rare Coins
> 1806 Layton St.
> Fort Worth, TX 76117
> 817-831-0074
Old Mauch Chunks Marvelelous Ride
Same name same come on look at the coin 1885-0 $1 he claims it MS-65 but
it has light cleaning on it. I responded to that post saying there is no
category for Mint state 65 as you all know there is no category for any
mint state dipped coins, some other fellow mentioned it could be MS-70
except for the hairlines :). if it was not a serious matter of what your
all talking about I would laugh in his face. What's next a $18 dollar
bill, if there is, I would offer 6 $3 bills or 2 $9 bills. What a joke
MS-65 with light cleaning, this is getting to be serious with these
people doing this type of business on the internet. They offer an Au
coin as unc Ms 60, if the guy returns it if he has received a number of
offers he keeps sending it out till it doesn't return for someone
doesn't know how to grade properly. Then the "unc" goes into a safe
deposit box for 5 years then the collector is told by someone. It is not
an unc. at all. Just Au-60 or even EF-47. this collector isn't going to
trust anyone in our hobby after that.
Group: rec.antiques.marketplace Date: Wed, Jun 28, 2000, 5:07pm (EDT-1)
From: cau...@ix.netcom.com (Frank Provasek) Causey July 8 auction, no
minimums
Causey's Auction for Saturday, July 8, 2000 3 pm Central Time No
minimums, no reserves, no buyer fee - Bid by email, phone or in person
<a href="http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/causeys/">Causey's Ebay
listings</a>
1. El Gran Cazador knife by Nieto, model SP104, wood and brass handle,
new, retail $69.95
2. 1910 Greece drachma, silver, VF, retail $10
3. 1932 Lincoln cent, MS65, 75% red, retail $50
4. 1942-P silver war nickel, ICG slab MS67, ultra gem! Retail $80 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/1942picg.jpg">Image</a>
5. Sterling silver solid bracelet with stone, retail $70
6. Pair of sterling silver cross earrings, new, retail $39.95
7. 1856 Mo Mexico 8 reales, normal date, Uncirculated, retail $125 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/18568r.jpg">Image</a>
8. 1870 Two cent piece, MS63 brown with traces of red, doubled die
obverse, evident on "trust," retail $600
<a href="http://coins.causey.com/1870two.jpg">Image</a>
9. 1776 Six dollar paper note, Continental Currency, printed in
Philadelphia,
May 9, 1776. John Adams, Thomas Jefferson, Ben Franklin were all alive
and in Philadelphia while this note was current. Uncirculated, a great
piece of American history! Retail $220 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/sixdol.jpg">Image</a>
10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60, retail
$20
11. 1863 Indian Head cent, MS63, a planchet void in front of the
Indian's
face, as made. Trends $150 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/1863cent.jpg">Image</a>
12. 1921 Mexico silver 2 peso Centennial, PCGS slab AU58. If this coin
were in an MS62
slab, you would wonder why it wasn't MS63. It's that nice! Retail $280
<a href="http://coins.causey.com/1921dos.jpg">Image</a>
13. 1927 Mexico 5 centavos, sharp Choice Uncirculated, retail $400 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/1927mex.jpg">Image</a>
14. 1919 Buffalo nickel, AU, Trends $22.50 [Lots 1- 14 are consigned]
15. 1937-D Nazi Germany silver 2 marks, nice VF, retail $12 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/19372m.jpg">Image</a>
16. 1881 Zs JS Mexico 8 reales, ANACS slab MS60, flatly stuck on the
centers
as usual, but pleasing for the grade, retail $110 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/18818r.jpg">Image</a>
17. 1963 $2 red seal, star note, nice AU, retail $13 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/star2.jpg">Image</a>
18. Lincoln cent, over 50% off center, Unc., a recent issue, no date,
retail $12
19. 1967 Canada silver commemorative prooflike set, about as nice as we
have
seen, nice wildlife designs, retail $25 <a
href="http://coins.causey.com/1967can.jpg">Image</a>
20. Nice group of US Mint sets: 1972, 1973, 1974, 1977, 1979, 1980,
1981,
1984. Greysheet dealer cost $60.65, retail $91
John
visit my personal page (no spam)
http://community.webtv.net/surr/SwitchbackGravity
Frank Provasek
>
> i guess the customer is only right when not buying a coin from the internet
> or through the mail
The difference here is that this coin was bought at AUCTION...not at a
retail store or
retail mail order sale. Those are VERY DIFFERENT THINGS. We hope you
realize that
before you bid.
>......personally, if the coin was overgraded, i believe
> the seller should be tied up and fed to the wolverines.
Overgraded in WHOSE opinion? Grading is an art, not a science.
Professionals
can and do arrive at differing opinions of a coin's "grade." AU55
versus
MS60 on early US copper? You will always have those arguments. The
Early
American Copper people will often list coins as "XF45 in a PCGS MS62
slab"
> if the seller truly
> believes that a coin grades out at ms-60, then he/she should be happy to
> take it back and refund the buyers money,
but it's an A_U_C_T_I_O_N !!!!
The "settlement" date has passed! The bidder has
paid me, the return period has passed, and the consignor has been paid!
What if you
sold a Honda, the potential buyer inspected it, agreed to buy it...you
gave him 5
days to return it if FOR ANY REASON HE WAS UNHAPPY (How many car dealers
do this.)
5 days passes, you take the money and buy another car. Then a month
later the
guy shows up and says he took the Honda you sold him to the Toyota and
Nissan dealers,
who BOTH agreed that the car was no good. Then he asks you for his
money back!
what is the motive of a DEALER???....NOT TO GIVE FREE APPRAISALS! It's
to deal...buy
or sell...when you show up with a coin or car you bought elsewhere, HE
DIDN'T SELL
TO YOU..his only options are to BUY it from you (at the lowest possible
price) OR
to make you unhappy so next time you will buy from HIM.
>and then resell it AT the original
>price. the question i ask is, WHY did the coin in question have a drop of
>$60 in "retail"?
Well, it DID NOT...
the change was $50 from $210 to $160
But price guides vary and are AVERAGES of MANY DEALERS' prices. IF a
price guide
shows $160, the asking prices might range from $125 to $220. I think
this
coin deserves to be on the high side, because it has glossy perfect
surfaces, while
much MS60 copper has been graded such because of corrosion.
But someone in this newsgroup COMPLAINED that the price was too high, so
we
LOWERED it. Now people are complaining that we LOWERED the
price...guess we
can't win.
I REALLY WISH that some of the people in this newsgroup who seem to not
have
very many comments that are helpful to others or the hobby in general
would read some books on coins by Scott Travers or Dave Bowers. Get one
of
the major auction catalogs such as the Heritage ANA. Look at how
different
a 1922-S dollar in Mint State 65 looks from a 1935-P. Look at the many
different
ways coins can tone. Look at the gold sections and see how some slabbed
MS65 coins
SURE HAVE A LOT OF MARKS, and that some lesser grades might look better
in the photos
(or maybe even BE better). Notice that many of the coins are NOT
slabbed, and yet
some of the slabbed ones might be LOW END...(auctions ARE liquidations,
you know)
Get the prices realized and study which coins brought better prices,
notice which
ones did not sell. If the auction was held over 2 or 3 days, you will
notice that
nearly IDENTICAL coins sold at different periods bring often wildly
different
prices. Maybe the high payer wanted just one...and didn't bid up the
other one.
And join a coin club...the experience of other collectors is invaluable.
Frank Provasek
David Ryan
>
> > look at the coin 1885-0 $1 he claims it MS-65 but
> > it has light cleaning on it.
>
> it didn't have the problem, then describing the problem. See the
> ANA Grading guide and Photograde
It doesn't work that way in MS grades. If it had no problems
it would be MS-70. MS details is the most you can get.
After that, as long as there isn't any wear, the problems *define*
the grade. Look at any ANACS net graded UNC or anybody else's
slab with a few hairlines.
And this guy is here because you crossposted again and he didn't
get the numismatic joke.
--
** DO NOT CLEAN COINS! (experts and ancients, at own risk ;-)
Frank Provasek
>
> Lucille Causey wrote:
> >
> > > look at the coin 1885-0 $1 he claims it MS-65 but
> > > it has light cleaning on it.
> >
> > Perfectly proper to decribe a problem coin by grading it as if
> > it didn't have the problem, then describing the problem. See the
> > ANA Grading guide and Photograde
>
> It doesn't work that way in MS grades. If it had no problems
> it would be MS-70. MS details is the most you can get.
> After that, as long as there isn't any wear, the problems *define*
> the grade. Look at any ANACS net graded UNC or anybody else's
> slab with a few hairlines.
I have a PCI 1888-O Morgan dollar, red slab, MS64 cleaned. SEGS
does the same thing.
How can you make statement like this in a newsgroup? Don't you
read any of the grading or coin reference books? Don't you take
any of the coin papers and notice these coins offered all the time
in ads? Don't you go to coin shops or shows and look at what is in
the marketplace?
Frank Provasek
David Ryan
On the slab you're describing the net grade *IS* MS64.
The idiot piece of copy you put out was MS65 cleaned NET MS60
which is *absurd*.
"10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60,
retail $20"
To which I responded:
"I'm not really getting on your case, but I found this description
amusing. It might even have been MS70 except for the hairlines :)"
I have no respect for your numismatic knowledge, your shop, your
methods or your netiquette and it is a great pleasure *not* doing
business with you. What I started with a light-hearted quip,
you've insisted now on making a fool of yourself over, as usual.
--
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net
On 29-Jun-2000, David Ryan <David...@adware.com> wrote:
> > I have a PCI 1888-O Morgan dollar, red slab, MS64 cleaned. SEGS
> > does the same thing.
> >
> > How can you make statement like this in a newsgroup? Don't you
> > read any of the grading or coin reference books? Don't you take
> > any of the coin papers and notice these coins offered all the time
> > in ads? Don't you go to coin shops or shows and look at what is in
> > the marketplace?
> >
> > Frank Provasek
>
> On the slab you're describing the net grade *IS* MS64.
>
> The idiot piece of copy you put out was MS65 cleaned NET MS60
> which is *absurd*.
>
> "10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60,
> retail $20"
>
> To which I responded:
>
> "I'm not really getting on your case, but I found this description
> amusing. It might even have been MS70 except for the hairlines :)"
I'm afraid I'm missing something here. If the PCI coin mentioned above is a
net 64, then presumably it was a higher-than-64 with some problem that
caused the net grade. Just for the sake of illustration, MS-67 hairlined,
net 64.
What is particularly absurd, then, about calling a coin MS-65 light
cleaning, net 60? Isn't that saying that the coin is uncirculated, a nice
strike and relatively free of bagmarks, but is being downgraded to the
lowest possible MS grade because of the cleaning?
--
Have you been told to go to Hell? Looking forward to the trip?
Don't forget to take along spending money! They don't take American
Express,unless you have an asbestos card. We have what you need, here:
http://cgi.ebay.aol.com/aol/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=353782938
David Ryan
Because you *really* don't know what the grade was lustre-wise,
eye appeal-wise, toning-wise because you weren't there to grade
it before it was dipped, brushed, whizzed, wiped or whatever.
So the grade was undefined. It's hard enough to grade a coin
you have in front of you, much less one that doesn't exist anymore
that no one around ever saw. You can look at the details present
and the condition of the surface. But what was is gone.
And UNC is not based on details, except strike as a very partial
component. ANACS, who puts a details grade on the cert, says
NET MS60 *UNC* DETAILS in these situations. They don't hype it.
The number is hype. It's like the advertisers who speculate that
a coin would have sold for thus and such in 1989, before the
bottom fell out on it. It's like "This is MS60, but it's really
smooth jazzed extra-good MS60." That's what's absurd about "MS65"...
----
By the way, if PCI grades coins that need to be segregated to
red label as cleaned and rates them as high as a market grade
64, either they are red-labeling the slightest hairline or they
are overgrading. I'd like to know which. And, yeah, I know the
grief PCGS is getting. But it's like the newbie who argues that
a coin is somehow metaphysically circulated if you touch it.
If the cleaning doesn't show, why call it cleaned? And if
every hairline is a cleaning, then they're just about all cleaned
and the term loses its meaning. Just musing :)
Frank Provasek
>
> On the slab you're describing the net grade *IS* MS64.
>
> The idiot piece of copy you put out was MS65 cleaned NET MS60
> which is *absurd*.
>
> "10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60,
> retail $20"
>
> I have no respect for your numismatic knowledge, your shop, your
> methods or your netiquette and it is a great pleasure *not* doing
> business with you
PCI >DOES NOT< use net grading. If they say MS62 scratched, they mean
the
coin grades MS62 WITHOUT THE DAMAGE, and then they describe the damage.
SEGS does the same thing.
ANACS >DOES< use net grading, thus they could call a coin Unc detail,
scratched, net XF40.
Frank Provasek
Causey's
Frank Provasek
net MS60 with a value of $20. We offer it at no minimum bid.
Tim
California, while Saint Frankie-poo claims that the auction is in TEXAS? >
The Auction is held in California. Specifically, San Jose. Consider this: A
Lloyd's Auction is held in London. The item is in a safe in Scotland, but the
item's owner is Irish. There are phone-in bids from around the world. If the
winning bidder phoned-in from New York, but lives in Nevada, where did the
Auction take place?
Regardless of all of the other information, the Auction in the example took
place in London. None of the other locations have any bearing on that fact.
eBay Auctions are "wire" (phone-in) auctions. By using the Internet to bid,
you're doing the same as the phone-in bidders of any other major Auction House.
But the Auctions themselves are held in San Jose, California. This is why
when both the seller and winning bidder is located in California, and the
seller has a retail license, then they must also collect sales tax from the
buyer.
- Dobac
the 1956 model was given the title "car of the future".
Ian Milne
Ian
biggfredd@NOSPAMameritech..net wrote:
>
> On 29-Jun-2000, David Ryan <David...@adware.com> wrote:
>
> > > I have a PCI 1888-O Morgan dollar, red slab, MS64 cleaned. SEGS
> > > does the same thing.
> > >
> > > How can you make statement like this in a newsgroup? Don't you
> > > read any of the grading or coin reference books? Don't you take
> > > any of the coin papers and notice these coins offered all the time
> > > in ads? Don't you go to coin shops or shows and look at what is in
> > > the marketplace?
> > >
> > > Frank Provasek
> >
> > On the slab you're describing the net grade *IS* MS64.
> >
> > The idiot piece of copy you put out was MS65 cleaned NET MS60
> > which is *absurd*.
> >
> > "10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60,
> > retail $20"
> >
> > To which I responded:
> >
> > "I'm not really getting on your case, but I found this description
> > amusing. It might even have been MS70 except for the hairlines :)"
>
> I'm afraid I'm missing something here. If the PCI coin mentioned above is a
> net 64, then presumably it was a higher-than-64 with some problem that
> caused the net grade. Just for the sake of illustration, MS-67 hairlined,
> net 64.
>
> What is particularly absurd, then, about calling a coin MS-65 light
> cleaning, net 60? Isn't that saying that the coin is uncirculated, a nice
> strike and relatively free of bagmarks, but is being downgraded to the
> lowest possible MS grade because of the cleaning?
>
PFDJR
>>>.... But the Auctions themselves are held in San Jose, California. This is
why when both the seller and winning bidder is located in California, and the
seller has a retail license, then they must also collect sales tax from the
buyer. <<<
No it's not.
I am from Connecticut....if I win an auction conducted by a retail seller also
residing in Connecticut I will be charged the 6% CT sales tax.....regardless of
the location of the venue.
You will also see notices from eBay sellers that are retail merchants in other
states with sales tax that a winning bidder from their state must pay the
state's sales tax.
+++++++++
Phil DeMayo
Member Coinmasters and ANA
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
ToddPollard
>Where IS the sale? eBay claims to be only a "venue." The merchandise is
>IN
>Texas. The payment was SENT to Texas. The item was mailed U.S. Mail FROM
>Texas.
>The item was sent back TO Texas....The Texas Department of Licensing and
>Regulation issued a letter some time back that online auctions meeting
>these
>points are considered occuring in Texas. I have to follow Texas law.
>Otherwise
>you would be having licensed auctioneers selling stuff online through
>eBay to
>get around the rules. In contrast, Teletrade auctions, where the
>coins are physically sent to New York, mailed from New York, payment
>sent to
>New York, are, not surprisingly, considered as New York auctions.
>
>>
>> The fact that you've gone this route is bad news. Bad news for you. Just
>> how much, and for how long, are you willing to pay for what could have
>> been a $100 refund? You've turned me off, but honestly, I've never seen
>> you offer anything in my area of interest anyway. However, if you ever
>> do, I'll have to consider bidding carefully, if at all.
>>
>> You may have had some claim to "being right" in the beginning (but I'm
>> still waiting to see what the date on the delivery confirmation says),
>> however, you've steered wrong now, IMO.
>>
>>
>Two of my local store customers have seen the coin..they will bid at
>least what
>it sold for the first time. The guy will get all of his money back. In 7
>days.
>This coin was consigned for us to place on eBay by Au-Ar Numismatics, a
>regular
>display advertiser in World Coin News. They are listed in the CDN
>directory.
>This company specializes in foreign, and sends its better US material to
>us for
>placement in our live auctions or on eBay.
>
>Au-Ar was paid a flat 90% of the sale price. I am required to keep
>auction proceeds
>in a separate segregated account. Payments into and out of. Lately we
>have been selling
>a number of $10 and $20 coins.
>
>Since this refund/resale is an irregular transaction, I either (1) wait
>until the money from the
>resale comes in, or (2) pay the refund now with money that is supposed
>to go to other consignors,
>(technically illegal) OR (3) pay the guy out of my own funds. I guess
>since I am the manager
>for a real business, I need to follow the law and standard auction rules
>and pick (1).
>
>When you see those fancy auction catalogs from the big houses, remember
>the auctioneer is responsible
>for protecting the CONSIGNOR...The fiduciary responsibiity is to the
>consignor, not the bidder. Just like
>people who call a Realtor and expect him to get them the best possible
>price for a house.
>The Realtor works for the seller, and can get in big trouble for making
>consessions to
>the buyer, when their legal obligation is to the seller.
>
>Welcome to the real world.
>
>Frank
>
Why do we need to know all this?
Todd
David Ryan
>
> David Ryan wrote:
> >
> >
> > The idiot piece of copy you put out was MS65 cleaned NET MS60
> > which is *absurd*.
> >
> > "10. 1885-O Morgan silver dollar, MS65 light cleaning, net MS60,
> > retail $20"
> >
> > methods or your netiquette and it is a great pleasure *not* doing
> > business with you
>
> PCI >DOES NOT< use net grading. If they say MS62 scratched, they
> mean the coin grades MS62 WITHOUT THE DAMAGE, and then they describe
> the damage. SEGS does the same thing.
>
> ANACS >DOES< use net grading, thus they could call a coin Unc detail,
> scratched, net XF40.
>
> Frank Provasek
> Causey's
PCI *does* net grade according to all I've read.
(though SEGS claims not to)
For references, I give you:
Stuart Segan (Coin World Trends Editor) from www.deja.com:
"PCI graded the coin Net AU-50 scratches."
http://x61.deja.com/=gh/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=619140364&CONTEXT=962336553.888274974&hitnum=23
another regular RCCer:
"...and would be net graded by ANACS or PCI."
http://x61.deja.com/=gh/[ST_rn=ps]/getdoc.xp?AN=633904402&CONTEXT=962336553.888274974&hitnum=11
a regular coin seller in a current eBay auction:
"...sight-unseen as an MS-60...AU details (See the scan). So I sent
it off to be certified and graded by PCI. It is genuine and was given
a net grade of EF40 (red) and indicated the surfaces were altered." http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=365432845
another dealer (Aloha) who doesn't say "net" but you get the drift:
"PCI MS64...would have 65d if left alone...red label (cleaned)"
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=358266776
-----
If you have something from PCI that would prove all of us wrong,
I wouldn't mind hearing about it. (But even if so, it is still
ridiculous in MS grades for reasons I've stated.)
PCI's website is somewhat ambiguous as it says only:
http://www.chattanooga.net/pci/pcicap.html
"PCI provides our original "Red Label" capsule for "problem" coins
and assigns the grade right on the label (exceptions are: altered,
counterfeits, etc).", whatever "the grade" means.
David Ryan
To reiterate, I just found "MS65" to be amusing and a bit of hype
and still do, not unfair or fraudulent. It looks like a nice budget
coin for someone for up to twenty bucks.
Ned Flanders
Old Mauch Chunks Marvelelous Ride
was a cleaned or dipped coin which was one of causeys auction items on
antiique.marketplace. If you think I am wrong go to that news group, you
will find it down the line as I found this one the 900 's today
7/02/2000.
Old Mauch Chunks Marvelelous Ride
Mint State coins are dipped", total nonsense.
Old Mauch Chunks Marvelelous Ride
you on causeys side, if you are then that would make it the reason to
end this thread.
Nick Knight
>Complete spam blocking or don't you want even friendly e-mail. Or are you
>on causeys side, if you are then that would make it the reason to end
>this thread.
Seems to me the thread's been over for some time. Please try to stay
up-to-date.
Nick
--
-----------------------------------------------------------
Nick Knight <ni...@secant.com> http://nick.secant.com
Senior Software Engineer
Secant Technologies, Inc. http://www.secant.com
-----------------------------------------------------------
WWS
Old Mauch Chunks Marvelelous Ride wrote:
>
> The owner of causeys just won't own up to it as she says "most of todays
> Mint State coins are dipped", total nonsense.
>
This isn't to defend the practice or to make it seem less
offensive, but I think one of the dirty secrets of the coin
industry is that this is exactly true, expecially the "white"
coins and the cameo's.
--
__________________________________________________WWS_____________
It may be that your sole purpose in life is
simply to serve as a warning to others.
Hershel Eacret
"Nick Knight" <ni...@secant.com> wrote in message
news:395f76f8$2$avpx$mr2...@client.ne.news.psi.net...
Tim
> one of the dirty secrets of the coin industry is that this is exactly true,
expecially the "white" coins and the cameo's.>
white, maybe. Cameos I don't buy. Dipping subdues those features which makes
a coin a cameo.
But like a j*ck*ss, I might be wrong also.
- Dobac
Everybody should collect something. Captain Kangaroo collected Ping-Pong
balls. Mr. Moose was his supplier.
F.M. Benton
>
> The owner of causeys just won't own up to it as she says "most of todays
> Mint State coins are dipped", total nonsense.
>
>http://members.ebay.com/aboutme/causeys/
>
I attended the ANA Grading course in Colorado Springs a few
years ago, and the speakers said that virtually all untoned
silver coins (even in slabs) have been dipped.
Mike Locke
Yep, and virtually all bright "mint state" gold has been buffed one way or
another, including the pieces in slabs. I've met a fellow who makes a
living doctoring rare US gold coins so that they would be less original and
more slabbable.
Jay Roe told me that he dipped *all* of the Calgold he handled, and over the
years he handled most of it.
--
S'later, Mike Locke loc...@scrserv.com
Mike is EAC #4357, LSCC #1636, JRCS #841, ANA #R-170301, CCS #F11
SPPN life member, Australian N.S. #1747, CNS #19309
Visit http://users.scronline.com/lockem for Calgold info and other stuff
F.M. Benton <fmbe...@mindspring.net> wrote in message
news:39771B...@mindspring.net...