When does "misaligned die" become an indication of "doubled die" strike?
dwhe...@ipns.com
have recently noticed several minor doublings that I first notice in
doubled rim strikes; sometimes as many as 3 strikes for what appears
to be on the face to be a doubled strike. Often the variation is
rather minor. But I have seen it happen: one strike on the extreme
outer rim of portion of the coin, another near the center portion of
the rim, and a third cutting into the date or lettering on the inside
of the coin.
Is there a standard for when a misaligned die showing mostly on the
coin rim becomes a positive indication of a doubled die strike?
Jud
True doubled die, or is it strike doubling (die chatter)? I doubt that
it is due to misaligned die.
Mr. Jaggers
A "doubled die" is a die that has been hubbed twice by the same hub, the two
hubbings being out of register with each other. Once a die is so doubled,
every coin that is produced by that die will exhibit identical doubling. It
has nothing to do with the conditions present at the moment of striking.
The 1955 DD Lincoln cent is the primo example of this. Apparently the
person doing the hubbing did not notice what he had done, or did not care,
and in their haste to get the coins released, mint employees did not
practice quality control. The defective coins had gotten mixed in with so
many properly-made coins that the decision was made to just go ahead and
release the whole batch.
The twentieth century overdated coins - the 1918/17-D and 1943/2 nickels,
the 1942/1 and 1942/1-D dimes, and the 1918/17-S quarters resulted from a
similar process. The dies that produced these were twice hubbed as well,
but with differently-dated hubs. The person who did the hubbing was careful
to keep the hubs in as close register as possible, so that the only
anomalies visible on the finished coins were in the date area. Some
numismatists consider these "doubled" dies, while others insist they be
called "twice-hubbed" dies. It may or may not be significant that every one
of these overdated dies was made during wartime.
Earlier overdated coins, e.g. the 1806/5 quarter and half dollars, were made
by alteration of finished dies.
The phenomenon that you are describing is not related to any of the above,
but is entirely dependent upon the conditions at the moment of striking.
The more dramatic the feature, the more interest there will be among error
collectors.
The Cherry Pickers Guide has an excellent treatise on doubled dies in the
end material.
James
Ken Barr
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
[snip]
> The twentieth century overdated coins - the 1918/17-D and 1943/2 nickels,
> the 1942/1 and 1942/1-D dimes, and the 1918/17-S quarters resulted from a
> similar process.
QUIZ TIME! Which twentieth century overdate coin did James omit from
the above list?
It's one that I always include, and people ALWAYS miss, when I design a
"Red Book Quiz" for a local coin club program ...
--
Ken Barr Numismatics email: k...@kenbarr.com
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152 Coins, currency, exonumia, souvenir cards, etc.
408-272-3247 NEXT SHOW: Vallejo Numismatic Society 5/2 (no table)
Mr. Jaggers
> In article <hrmiq...@enews5.newsguy.com>,
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>
> [snip]
>> The twentieth century overdated coins - the 1918/17-D and 1943/2
>> nickels, the 1942/1 and 1942/1-D dimes, and the 1918/17-S quarters
>> resulted from a similar process.
>
> QUIZ TIME! Which twentieth century overdate coin did James omit from
> the above list?
>
> It's one that I always include, and people ALWAYS miss, when I design
> a "Red Book Quiz" for a local coin club program ...
I spoze you are talking about the 1914/3 nickel, which may or may not exist
with branch mintmarks.
James
Ken Barr
Nope ... it's been quite a while since I developed one of these
quizzies, and the 1914/3 wasn't known at the time.
Hint 1: It's not in a series typically collected by date.
Hint 2: It's a trick question ... there are actually TWO such coins not
on your list ...
The question I posed ustabin "Name the seven twentieth century overdates
listed in the Redbook" -- with the 1914/3 nickel now listed, I'll have
to change that to "eight" if I ever design a new one.
Michael Benveniste
>> The twentieth century overdated coins - the 1918/17-D and 1943/2 nickels,
>> the 1942/1 and 1942/1-D dimes, and the 1918/17-S quarters resulted from a
>> similar process.
>
> QUIZ TIME! Which twentieth century overdate coin did James omit from
> the above list?
>
> It's one that I always include, and people ALWAYS miss, when I design a
> "Red Book Quiz" for a local coin club program ...
The 1909/8 $20 Gold?
--
Mike Benveniste -- m...@murkyether.com (Clarification Required)
Its name is Public opinion. It is held in reverence. It settles
everything. Some think it is the voice of God. -- Mark Twain
Mr. Jaggers
> "Ken Barr" <k...@kenbarr.com> wrote:
>
>>> The twentieth century overdated coins - the 1918/17-D and 1943/2
>>> nickels, the 1942/1 and 1942/1-D dimes, and the 1918/17-S quarters
>>> resulted from a similar process.
>>
>> QUIZ TIME! Which twentieth century overdate coin did James omit from
>> the above list?
>>
>> It's one that I always include, and people ALWAYS miss, when I
>> design a "Red Book Quiz" for a local coin club program ...
>
> The 1909/8 $20 Gold?
I'll bet that's one of them! Isn't there a Liberty half eagle overdate as
well? I'm really pretty oblivious to those series.
James
Jerry Dennis
> In article <hrmiq802...@enews5.newsguy.com>,
I cheated by looking in my Red Book. I'm guessing the 1914/3 Buffalo
nickel?
Jerry
Q. What do I win?
A. Admiration and respect of your peers.
dwhe...@ipns.com
These are not overdates. They are doubled die Washington quarters.
Sorry for not including that info, but hoped others may have noticed
it before. Specifically 34, 36, 37, 41 DDO, 41 DDR, 42, 42D, 43 and
4SS. So far have been using photos of examples from PCGS as guides,
but finding lots of other examples among my coins and those on Ebay.
At least one of the quarters has a partial rim that extends through
the base of the 1, slightly higher in the 9, and even higher at the 4
where it ends. Looked almost like a cud or die crack, except for the
curve that extends into the rim itself. Looks a lot like an off-center
die strike that has been struck again.
Another question on the same subject as doubled die dates, though. I
have just purchased an 1883 Shield Nickel. Not the 83/2, I think. It
does have a nearly filled lower 8 in 83. The really odd thing is that
it appears to have another 4-digit date rotated about 15 degrees from
current center. Above the 1 of this faint date, and just the left of
IN in the motto, is a faint D exactly where I would expect it. I know
there are a lot of errors in the Shield Nickel series, but have not
heard of this one.
Daniel B. Wheeler
dwhe...@ipns.com
I thank you for the info, James, Ken and Mike. I don't have that many
of any of these coins, being in a much lower economic strata than gold
coin collectors. My few are mostly from the late 1990's and early
2000's. Sigh.
Daniel B. Wheeler
dwhe...@ipns.com
Since I've already won this one, I think I'll share. Hope it's still
available for anyone to look at. Rim at bottom looks to be triple
strike: one extreme outer, largest center, and faint inner rim joining
all 4 digits in date. Seems to end just after the last digit.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=160429603369&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT
Daniel B. Wheeler
Mr. Jaggers
The auction directs you to "please grade yourself." So, how did you come
out on that? 8>)
James, not giving up his day job for stand up comedy
Jud
>
> Daniel B. Wheeler
You paid $3.75, including postage, for a coin that has an intrinsic
value of $3.41. Not a bad buy, especially if there is something
'extra' there!
Ken Barr
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
It's been a day since I posed the question, and nobody posted the second
one yet, so I guess I'd better pony it up myself:
1901/0-S $5.00 Liberty half eagle
Thanks to James, Michael and Jerry for playing, and for coming up with
the 1914/3 Boofalo nickel that I fergot about ...
At one time I thought I wanted to put together a set of all
then-six-known 20th century overdates, but never got around to it. I'm
not really all that interested in errors and varieties, it seems ...
Michael Benveniste
> At one time I thought I wanted to put together a set of all
> then-six-known 20th century overdates, but never got around to it. I'm
> not really all that interested in errors and varieties, it seems ...
The only U.S. overdate error I own is the 1809/6 half cent, which
arguably isn't an overdate at all. I do own a 1900 O/CC dollar,
though.
dwhe...@ipns.com
>
> > Daniel B. Wheeler
>
> The auction directs you to "please grade yourself." So, how did you come
> out on that? 8>)
>
> James, not giving up his day job for stand up comedy
I'm afraid I'm far too circulated for most collectors. Grin. Just as
well. I'm not sure I the idea of being commonplace.
Daniel B. Wheeler