VZ dumps UseNet
mazorj
account. In case you hadn't heard, this reprint of a Verizon announcement
was on one of the 0.verizon newsgroups. Their bean counters have dropped
the other shoe. We no longer will be able to get rcc or any other UseNet
groups using the Verizon newsgroups service. Follow the link to a site
where you can find an alternative method to get UseNet groups.
IMPORTANT - Verizon newsgroup service to be discontinued.
Newsgroups were initially developed as a text-based way to share information
on
the Internet. Today, demand for newsgroups is much lower, since most users
have
switched to more exciting ways of getting and sharing information via the
Web,
such as social networks, email and sites such as our Verizon Central
Newsroom.
Because of the reduced demand for newsgroups, on September 30, 2009, Verizon
will discontinue its USENET newsgroup service. Subscribers will not be able
to
post or download material from the Verizon newsgroup service after this
date.
INFORMATION ABOUT VERIZON'S ELIMINATION OF ITS NEWSGROUP SERVICE
1. When will Verizon discontinue its newsgroup service?
The service will be discontinued on September 30, 2009. After this date,
Verizon's Newsgroup service will no longer be active.
2. If I want to continue to access newsgroups, what are my options?
There are several commercial newsgroup providers that you can consider. You
may
want to review some options at www.newsgroupreviews.com. The available
content,
posting policies, terms and prices (if applicable) will vary, so you should
select the one that is right for you. If you elect to access a non-Verizon
newsgroup service over the Verizon network, our Terms of Service and
Acceptable
Use Policy will still apply to your use of our Internet service.
3. Are any changes to my software required?
Yes. You will need to do two things. First, you will need to remove the
verizon.net USENET newsgroup service from your newsreader software. Second,
if
you want to continue accessing newsgroups, you will need to configure your
newsreader software to connect to your new newsgroup service. Follow your
new
service provider's instructions for accessing their newsgroup service.
The following link explains how to unsubscribe to Newsgroups in Outlook
Express:
http://support.microsoft.com/kb/171190
4. Will this change to the newsgroup service affect my Verizon Internet
service?
This change will not affect your ability to use your Verizon Internet
service or
other commercial newsgroup services, and there will not be any change to the
price you pay for your Verizon High Speed Internet or Verizon FiOS Internet
service.
Jon Purkey
>INFORMATION ABOUT VERIZON'S ELIMINATION OF ITS NEWSGROUP SERVICE
>
>1. When will Verizon discontinue its newsgroup service?
>
>The service will be discontinued on September 30, 2009. After this date,
>Verizon's Newsgroup service will no longer be active.
Thanks for the information. Looks like I'll need to find another news
server, and one that works. I tried a couple free ones when the alt.
groups were dropped, but half the time I'd get a failed connection
when trying to read or post and I eventually just gave up on the 1 or
2 alt. groups that I still read. Looks like I'll have to pay.
Mike Marotta
> I see that we have a fair number of participants who post under a Verizon
> There are several commercial newsgroup providers ...
http://www.google.com
under the MOREv dropdown, at the far right
click and find
Groups (!)
Books
Scholar
and more
Click on Groups.
The lower segment under EXPLORE GROUPS, in the search box,
keyin
rec.collecting.coins
Click "Search for a group"
find
rec.collecting.coins
and
uk.collecting.coins
Mike M.
Michael E. Marotta
"Internet Connnections"
Meerkat1
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I see that we have a fair number of participants who post under a Verizon
> account. In case you hadn't heard, this reprint of a Verizon announcement
> was on one of the 0.verizon newsgroups. Their bean counters have dropped
> the other shoe. We no longer will be able to get rcc or any other UseNet
> groups using the Verizon newsgroups service. Follow the link to a site
> where you can find an alternative method to get UseNet groups.
>
-snip-
An easy and free way to get rcc and to avoid google groups is to use
aioe.org
Their usenet server is nntp.aioe.org
No registration or authentication required. SSL (port 563) is supported
as well as all the usual ports.
An alternative with better retention is news.eternal-september.org
This server requires registration but is also free. Their website with
instructions is
http://www.eternal-september.org/
Good luck...
PS You should know that many usenet participants kill-file all messages
posted through google groups (particularly in the comp.sys.* groups). I
don't; but, some do.
This message is posted through aioe.org
--
Meerkat1
Jon Purkey
wrote:
>An easy and free way to get rcc and to avoid google groups is to use
>aioe.org
>
>Their usenet server is nntp.aioe.org
>
>No registration or authentication required. SSL (port 563) is supported
>as well as all the usual ports.
That was one I tried. But I would get failed connection messages. I
will give it another try though since maybe it has improved. It's
still on the list of servers, just unchecked.
>An alternative with better retention is news.eternal-september.org
>This server requires registration but is also free. Their website with
>instructions is
>
>http://www.eternal-september.org/
>
>Good luck...
Thanks. It does not have to be free though, but I would prefer a
service where I just pay for the bandwidth I use, rather than pay a
monthly fee even for months I don't use it. I was told of such a pay
for what you use service several months ago, but never looked into it.
Hopefully I still have the email.
>PS You should know that many usenet participants kill-file all messages
>posted through google groups (particularly in the comp.sys.* groups). I
>don't; but, some do.
I only use Google Groups to search old messages.
George D
> I see that we have a fair number of participants who post under a
> Verizon account. In case you hadn't heard, this reprint of a Verizon
> announcement was on one of the 0.verizon newsgroups. Their bean
> counters have dropped the other shoe. We no longer will be able to get
> rcc or any other UseNet groups using the Verizon newsgroups service.
> Follow the link to a site where you can find an alternative method to
> get UseNet groups.
I use free.teranews.com for news groups it works if you don't download
massive amounts of graphics. I have never used my free daily allotment
of band width.
George
--
Support Communism
SHOP
Walmart
George D
I forgot to mention there retention is very is good currently 113725
available messages on RCC. They also have ABPN oldest current message
there is 6-24-09 I guess we don't use that very much anymore.
mazorj
"George D" <geo...@arizona.com> wrote in message
news:JG9pm.18534$ec2....@newsfe13.iad...
That's pretty good retention. I'll have to look into them. The
0.verizon.xxx newsgroups also have numerous recommendations for alternate
sources of Usenet.
> --
> Support Communism
>
> SHOP
>
> Walmart
Given that from your previous sig you seem to be a libertarian, as a WalMart
critic I'm not sure what to make of your sig here. I would have said
"Support Fascism". Which would be equally odious to either of us.
The Giant Brain
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:bqfpm.1473$Jd7...@nwrddc02.gnilink.net...
I believe he was referring to the inordinate amount of goods manufactured in
China purveyed by Wal-Mart.
Wal-Mart is capitalism brought to its logical conclusion.
It's a far cry from Fascism, IMO.
mazorj
"The Giant Brain" <gi...@brain.invalid> wrote in message
news:h840uu$44m$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Got it. Thanks. Although the alternative argument, made by importers
such as WalMart, is that bringing the advantages of capitalism to the
people (recently the Soviets, and now the Chinese through trade)
eventually will cause the collapse of a communist regime. That's true
in theory, but in this case the cost is measured in American jobs.
I had written a more direct response about WalMart, but then deleted
it. I'm not in the mood right now to get a third WalMart War started
here.
- mazorj the Discrete
George D
>
Walmart
>
> Given that from your previous sig you seem to be a libertarian, as a
> WalMart critic I'm not sure what to make of your sig here. I would have
> said "Support Fascism". Which would be equally odious to either of us.
>
I guess my sig was not very well stated. So I will change it. I am a
conservative and think that we need to buy America. I could rant on and
on about Walmart but this is a coin newsgroup so I won't.
I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there when
there are no other reasonable sources.
George
--
The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those
who are willing to work and give to those who would not.
Thomas Jefferson
Mr. Jaggers
> mazorj wrote:
>>
> Walmart
>>
>> Given that from your previous sig you seem to be a libertarian, as a
>> WalMart critic I'm not sure what to make of your sig here. I would
>> have said "Support Fascism". Which would be equally odious to
>> either of us.
>
> I guess my sig was not very well stated. So I will change it. I am a
> conservative and think that we need to buy America. I could rant on
> and on about Walmart but this is a coin newsgroup so I won't.
Oh, go ahead. There aren't very many people on here anymore who show much
interest in coin topics, so if we want activity, we have to go OT quite a
bit of the time.
I find your conservative view refreshing, inasmuch as it runs counter to the
ersatz version of "conservatism" that yells from AM talk radio for six hours
a day. It reminds me of views that I heard expressed during the Eisenhower
era, when conservatives were intellectual and took the time to think. These
days, the conservatives normally line up in favor of WallyWorld, the
liberals, against, more for what they perceive as its attitude toward
employees and unions than its sources of merchandise.
That said, I can't see how boycotting Walmart is going to contribute one jot
to bringing back the golden days of American manufacturing. As I travel
through a couple of bigger cities near where I live, I pass by dozens and
dozens of deserted, decaying factories and warehouses that were thriving,
capitalistic enterprises during my youth. But I also know that they were
out of the picture long before anyone had even heard of Walmart, so it is
hardly fair to put the blame on Sam Walton. By the time his bailiwick
became an empire, the damage had already been done.
If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there
> when there are no other reasonable sources.
Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy! People
who are interested more in the bottom line, though, generally vote with
their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there are a lot of them, at
least from where I sit and observe.
James
mazorj
Fair enough, I'm happy to stand corrected on this.
Mr. Jaggers
I would be most interested in being directed to a primary source that
contained that Jefferson quotation.
James the Researcher
George D
> George D wrote:
>> mazorj wrote:
>> Walmart
>
> Oh, go ahead. There aren't very many people on here anymore who show much
> interest in coin topics, so if we want activity, we have to go OT quite a
> bit of the time.
I have noticed that also.
> I find your conservative view refreshing, inasmuch as it runs counter to the
> ersatz version of "conservatism" that yells from AM talk radio for six hours
> a day. It reminds me of views that I heard expressed during the Eisenhower
> era, when conservatives were intellectual and took the time to think. These
> days, the conservatives normally line up in favor of WallyWorld, the
> liberals, against, more for what they perceive as its attitude toward
> employees and unions than its sources of merchandise.
OK maybe I am not a normal conservative, in fact I don't know exactly
how to describe myself into a "slot" that will fit any standard description.
A little about my self. I am a 65+ married man with 2 grown children. I
graduated from High School and never went to a institute of higher
learning. After high school I did my 4 years with the US Air Force
between Korea and Nam.
Before that during my late grade school and high school days I held many
different jobs to earn spending money. I worked in a plant nursery doing
things like pounding draining holes in the bottom of one gallon cans,
planting things in those cans, watered the plants, and all the other
things that go with running a retail/wholesale nursery.
Hosing down the parking lot on Sunday mornings for a Daily Queen, worked
at a pet store, assembled wooden covered wagon lamps, and all before I
was 15. Today all of those jobs would be unavailable to the youth
growing up, you know about child labor laws.
I even worked as a delivery boy for one company but because I didn't
have a drivers license my boss had one of the ladies drive me to the
different stops, women did not do deliveries then.
When I got out of the military I went to work for my parents in the
family Printing and Mailing Company a few years later they retired and I
ran the company for 30 more years. I never got rich but I made a decent
living and keep 20 or so others taking home paychecks.
> That said, I can't see how boycotting Walmart is going to contribute one jot
> to bringing back the golden days of American manufacturing. As I travel
> through a couple of bigger cities near where I live, I pass by dozens and
> dozens of deserted, decaying factories and warehouses that were thriving,
> capitalistic enterprises during my youth. But I also know that they were
> out of the picture long before anyone had even heard of Walmart, so it is
> hardly fair to put the blame on Sam Walton. By the time his bailiwick
> became an empire, the damage had already been done.
Buying America is only one reason I will not enter a Walmart. I have a
problem with their entire business model. They into a small market place
and doing so puts many local stores out of business. Yes some of those
owners and employees can get jobs at Walmart but I doubt they will ever
feel like they are part of the community as they were in the smaller
locally owned establishments.
Sam Walton started out his company and made it grow with "Made in
America" marketing and now I never hear that phrase in any of the
advertising. Walmart is big enough to influence manufacturing here in
the USA but they seem to want to use there expansion into China as more
profitable way to go. (just a feeling I have not a researchable item)
I have never worked for the company but I have never talked to a ex
employee who had anything good to say about them. Health insurance, work
hours, respect, are not available for many if not most of the employees.
Now I will buy American where I can and I will pay more for those items
that I can find but if you look in my driveway there is a contradiction
as I own a Ford F150, A Japanese Toyota Prius and 2 German Smart cars.
BTW I also don't do harbor Freight and some other companies who
specialize in "made in China Products".
> If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
>
>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there
>> when there are no other reasonable sources.
>
> Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy! People
> who are interested more in the bottom line, though, generally vote with
> their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there are a lot of them, at
> least from where I sit and observe.
>
> James
>
>
George
PS I can't find out who really said what is in my sig line. But it is
true as far as I know......
Mr. Jaggers
> Mr. Jaggers wrote:
>> George D wrote:
>>> mazorj wrote:
>>> Walmart
>
>>
>> Oh, go ahead. There aren't very many people on here anymore who
>> show much interest in coin topics, so if we want activity, we have
>> to go OT quite a bit of the time.
>
> I have noticed that also.
>
>> I find your conservative view refreshing, inasmuch as it runs
>> counter to the ersatz version of "conservatism" that yells from AM
>> talk radio for six hours a day. It reminds me of views that I heard
>> expressed during the Eisenhower era, when conservatives were
>> intellectual and took the time to think. These days, the
>> conservatives normally line up in favor of WallyWorld, the liberals,
>> against, more for what they perceive as its attitude toward
>> employees and unions than its sources of merchandise.
>
> OK maybe I am not a normal conservative, in fact I don't know exactly
> how to describe myself into a "slot" that will fit any standard
> description.
I have found that it's best to avoid labels of any kind.
In my younger days I, too, worked for a number of smaller locally owned
businesses, and I was treated like so much chattel. Let's face it:
capitalism isn't pretty.
Here in North Lugburz, a consortium of local businessmen successfully
thwarted the coming of Walmart to town about three decades ago. Ironically,
over the subsequent few years they mostly all closed up shop anyway, and had
been gone for two decades when Walmart finally did come in the late 90s.
> Sam Walton started out his company and made it grow with "Made in
> America" marketing and now I never hear that phrase in any of the
> advertising. Walmart is big enough to influence manufacturing here in
> the USA but they seem to want to use there expansion into China as
> more profitable way to go. (just a feeling I have not a researchable
> item)
I remember when they flogged "Made in America" as well. But, after I posted
this morning, I thought some more and came up with the tentative observation
that places like Ace Hardware or Safeway really don't sell American-made
goods in any greater proportion than does Walmart. Stanley Tools are
Stanley Tools, and Campbell's Soup is Campbell's Soup, no matter whose
shelves they occupy.
> I have never worked for the company but I have never talked to a ex
> employee who had anything good to say about them. Health insurance,
> work hours, respect, are not available for many if not most of the
> employees.
I've never talked to an ex-employee of any company who had much good to say
about it.
> Now I will buy American where I can and I will pay more for those
> items that I can find but if you look in my driveway there is a
> contradiction as I own a Ford F150, A Japanese Toyota Prius and 2 German
> Smart cars.
>
> BTW I also don't do harbor Freight and some other companies who
> specialize in "made in China Products".
Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than the guy
who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to patronize
businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
>> If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
>>
>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there
>>> when there are no other reasonable sources.
>>
>> Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy! People
>> who are interested more in the bottom line, though, generally
>> vote with their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there are a
>> lot of them, at least from where I sit and observe.
>>
>> James
>>
>>
>
> George
>
> PS I can't find out who really said what is in my sig line. But it is
> true as far as I know......
As far as you know? I suppose I should ask for five corroborative examples,
but instead I invite you to follow this link:
http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_democracy_will_cease_to_exist
By the way, no one has ever provided documentation that Marie Antoinette
ever said "Let them eat cake" either. Thus do we fabricate and attribute
quotes to suit our own agendas.
James, who judiciously avoids saying anything quotable
Jud
>
> James, who judiciously avoids saying anything quotable
Too late! You have just been quoted! 8-)
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:h8780...@enews2.newsguy.com...
> George D wrote:
>> Mr. Jaggers wrote:
...
>>> That said, I can't see how boycotting Walmart is going to contribute
>>> one jot to bringing back the golden days of American manufacturing. As I
>>> travel through a couple of bigger cities near where I live, I
>>> pass by dozens and dozens of deserted, decaying factories and
>>> warehouses that were thriving, capitalistic enterprises during my
>>> youth. But I also know that they were out of the picture long
>>> before anyone had even heard of Walmart, so it is hardly fair to put
>>> the blame on Sam Walton. By the time his bailiwick became an
>>> empire, the damage had already been done.
True, you can't blame WalMart for everything or even for most of the
economic decay. You can't blame a corner drug dealer for all our drug
problems but that doesn't excuse him. He's still doing wrong and
contributing to the problem. Only in this analogy, WalMart would be the
biggest drug importer in the world. (And no, I'm not equating WM to drug
dealers. It's just an analogy.)
>> Buying America is only one reason I will not enter a Walmart. I have a
>> problem with their entire business model. They into a small market
>> place and doing so puts many local stores out of business. Yes some
>> of those owners and employees can get jobs at Walmart but I doubt
>> they will ever feel like they are part of the community as they were
>> in the smaller locally owned establishments.
>
> In my younger days I, too, worked for a number of smaller locally owned
> businesses, and I was treated like so much chattel. Let's face it:
> capitalism isn't pretty.
In my younger days I worked for small local businesses. There were one or
two jerks but most of them treated me decently and humanely. I worked my
ass off and didn't make much, but for them even "disposable" entry-level
workers deserved to be treated with dignity and respect.
> Here in North Lugburz, a consortium of local businessmen successfully
> thwarted the coming of Walmart to town about three decades ago.
> Ironically, over the subsequent few years they mostly all closed up shop
> anyway, and had been gone for two decades when Walmart finally did come in
> the late 90s.
Sometimes it happens that way, James, but there have been plenty of stories
where the local businesses were still making a living up until they got
WalMarted. And yes, some of the previous owners and employees ended up
working there because local employment opportunities had been nuked.
>> Sam Walton started out his company and made it grow with "Made in
>> America" marketing and now I never hear that phrase in any of the
>> advertising. Walmart is big enough to influence manufacturing here in
>> the USA but they seem to want to use there expansion into China as
>> more profitable way to go. (just a feeling I have not a researchable
>> item)
You can infer that from their own descriptions of how they do their
purchasing. You can hear less flattering descriptions from vendors who have
had their margins squeezed to the point where their mark-ups are barely
enough to make it worth doing business. Some of them even have stopped
selling to WM because they can't sell at the prices WM demands - especially
where they are being played off against Chinese producers.
> I remember when they flogged "Made in America" as well. But, after I
> posted this morning, I thought some more and came up with the tentative
> observation that places like Ace Hardware or Safeway really don't sell
> American-made goods in any greater proportion than does Walmart. Stanley
> Tools are Stanley Tools, and Campbell's Soup is Campbell's Soup, no matter
> whose shelves they occupy.
Chinese goods are like what they say about assholes and opinions. Every
store owner has them. But I'd bet a Chinese counterfeit of your choice that
WM has more Chinese goods per square foot of floor space than anyone except
an Oriental grocery store. And even if they are only #2 or #20, the sheer
volume of their sales has an impact like no other retailer.
As I said, WM is only a part of the problem. It's their sheer size and
dominance (along with the treatment of their workers) that makes them so
conspicuous. WM's methods have become the new norm for retailers to aspire
to. At the other end of the pipeline, you also have to blame the U.S.
manufacturers that have shipped so much of their production overseas.
>> I have never worked for the company but I have never talked to a ex
>> employee who had anything good to say about them. Health insurance,
>> work hours, respect, are not available for many if not most of the
>> employees.
>
> I've never talked to an ex-employee of any company who had much good to
> say about it.
See my previous comment. As a medical retiree, I can now extend that to my
former employer of 30 years. They weren't perfect and we all had the normal
workplace gripes. But they were a good employer over my three decades and
they treated me fairly and humanely after I became no longer able to work at
my previous level of productivity. I was "disposable" but they didn't treat
me like a used condom. YMMV and I know that many workers do get that
treatment. WM is a poster child for that, but with good reason.
>> Now I will buy American where I can and I will pay more for those
>> items that I can find but if you look in my driveway there is a
>> contradiction as I own a Ford F150, A Japanese Toyota Prius and 2 German
>> Smart cars.
>>
>> BTW I also don't do harbor Freight and some other companies who
>> specialize in "made in China Products".
Cars are a bit of a special case. When a foreign manufacturer imports
certain parts, makes some of them here, and completely assembles them here,
where do you draw a line on "American made? I don't have as much of a
problem with those cars. But when a widget on a shelf is labelled "Made in
China" its status is obvious.
> Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than the guy
> who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to patronize
> businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
I don't give an imported fig for what the other guy does or thinks. And IMO
boycotting WM does make you better than the next guy. I am sometimes (but
*not* always) paying more to walk the walk on what I consider to be a moral
principle. The other guy isn't buying at WM to uphold his belief in free
enterprise or WM's methods. He's buying there because he saves a few bucks.
>>> If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
>>>
>>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there
>>>> when there are no other reasonable sources.
Which can be the case where WM has nuked too many of the local suppliers.
>>> Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy! People
>>> who are interested more in the bottom line, though, generally
>>> vote with their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there are a
>>> lot of them, at least from where I sit and observe.
Of course. As with capitalism, there is nothing wrong with competition per
se. It's the application of it that sometimes crosses a line.
>> George
>>
>> PS I can't find out who really said what is in my sig line. But it is
>> true as far as I know......
>
> As far as you know? I suppose I should ask for five corroborative
> examples, but instead I invite you to follow this link:
>
> http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_democracy_will_cease_to_exist
>
> By the way, no one has ever provided documentation that Marie Antoinette
> ever said "Let them eat cake" either. Thus do we fabricate and attribute
> quotes to suit our own agendas.
>
> James, who judiciously avoids saying anything quotable
Deep Throat probably never said "Follow the money" to Woodward and
Bernstein. It was inserted as a line of dialogue in the movie "All the
President's Men" but according to an interview I heard years ago with one of
the writers or producers, when it was pointed out that it wasn't in the
book, he checked and by golly, he couldn't find it and had no idea how it
got into the script. He allowed that perhaps he had conflated some
discussion he had with Woodstein where they told him that they had started
to follow a money trail. Nevertheless, it made for good dialogue - so much
so that it later became a catch-phrase for all kinds of unrelated
situations.
- mazorj, quote...unquote
mazorj
"Jud" <numis...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:e1e8d655-ad5c-4ac4...@y42g2000yqb.googlegroups.com...
On Sep 8, 11:40 pm, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>
> James, who judiciously avoids saying anything quotable
< Too late! You have just been quoted! 8-)
Heh. Does the old X-NoArchive command still work in UseNet?
-mazorj, "Quoth the raven, nevermore."
Bruce Remick
That would seem to be the norm for most all of the local stores I remember
as a kid-- the corner drug store, grocery store, hardware, 5 & 10, etc. All
were doomed by the big chains and shopping centers. WalMart is just one of
these. And as far as insurance and benefits, I doubt any of the former mom
& pop businesses could offer those perks either. I do remember in the
1950's being "councelled" to join the union as a part time stock clerk at
our local grocery store. Pissed me off, but I needed the job.
I don't think WalMart sells that much different stuff than any of the other
discount chains. There are so many of our goods made elsewhere that I don't
waste my time anymore looking at labels. At least they're being sold and
marketed here by American workers, if that's any consolation. The Camry
you buy is likely made in the US, sold and serviced by a US dealer, financed
by a US bank, etc. As long as people still buy cars of ANY make, this still
means jobs for Americans. Whether the ultimate profits go to an American or
Japanese CEO is something that seldom affects us.
>
>> Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than the guy
>> who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to patronize
>> businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
>
> I don't give an imported fig for what the other guy does or thinks. And
> IMO boycotting WM does make you better than the next guy. I am sometimes
> (but *not* always) paying more to walk the walk on what I consider to be a
> moral principle. The other guy isn't buying at WM to uphold his belief in
> free enterprise or WM's methods. He's buying there because he saves a few
> bucks.
I don't particularly care for the big oil company business models, but I
keep buying their gas and oil for my cars. If I find a shirt I like but
notice that it's made in Thailand, I will still buy the shirt even though I
might not agree with the Thai government. If Wal Mart has a product that's
priced cheaper than Target or K-Mart, I'll buy it at Wal Mart. Otherwise,
I'll shop at whatever store is handiest.
>
>>>> If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
>>>>
>>>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go there
>>>>> when there are no other reasonable sources.
>
> Which can be the case where WM has nuked too many of the local suppliers.
>
>>>> Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy!
>>>> People who are interested more in the bottom line, though, generally
>>>> vote with their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there are a
>>>> lot of them, at least from where I sit and observe.
>
> Of course. As with capitalism, there is nothing wrong with competition
> per se. It's the application of it that sometimes crosses a line.
Now you sound like me-- resigned to this "progress" but not particularly
liking it.
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:h8780...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>> George D wrote:
>>> Mr. Jaggers wrote:
>
> ...
>>>> That said, I can't see how boycotting Walmart is going to
>>>> contribute one jot to bringing back the golden days of American
>>>> manufacturing. As I travel through a couple of bigger cities near
>>>> where I live, I pass by dozens and dozens of deserted, decaying
>>>> factories and
>>>> warehouses that were thriving, capitalistic enterprises during my
>>>> youth. But I also know that they were out of the picture long
>>>> before anyone had even heard of Walmart, so it is hardly fair to
>>>> put the blame on Sam Walton. By the time his bailiwick became an
>>>> empire, the damage had already been done.
>
> True, you can't blame WalMart for everything or even for most of the
> economic decay. You can't blame a corner drug dealer for all our drug
> problems but that doesn't excuse him. He's still doing wrong and
> contributing to the problem. Only in this analogy, WalMart would be
> the biggest drug importer in the world. (And no, I'm not equating WM
> to drug dealers. It's just an analogy.)
The corner drug dealer is breaking the law. Walmart is not. I fail to see
an analogy here.
>>> Buying America is only one reason I will not enter a Walmart. I
>>> have a problem with their entire business model. They into a small
>>> market place and doing so puts many local stores out of business.
>>> Yes some of those owners and employees can get jobs at Walmart but I
>>> doubt
>>> they will ever feel like they are part of the community as they were
>>> in the smaller locally owned establishments.
>>
>> In my younger days I, too, worked for a number of smaller locally
>> owned businesses, and I was treated like so much chattel. Let's
>> face it: capitalism isn't pretty.
>
> In my younger days I worked for small local businesses. There were
> one or two jerks but most of them treated me decently and humanely. I
> worked my ass off and didn't make much, but for them even
> "disposable" entry-level workers deserved to be treated with dignity
> and respect.
The ones I worked for would send me out on a job, pay me X, and bill the
customer for 2X, in addition to charging their usual retail markup for the
goods and materials I installed. Let's discuss the morality of that
practice sometime.
>> Here in North Lugburz, a consortium of local businessmen successfully
>> thwarted the coming of Walmart to town about three decades ago.
>> Ironically, over the subsequent few years they mostly all closed up
>> shop anyway, and had been gone for two decades when Walmart finally
>> did come in the late 90s.
>
> Sometimes it happens that way, James, but there have been plenty of
> stories where the local businesses were still making a living up
> until they got WalMarted. And yes, some of the previous owners and
> employees ended up working there because local employment
> opportunities had been nuked.
I have yet to see any reliable documentation of claims such as these. In
any event, if a local businessman cannot counterpoint his higher prices with
something his customers want and can't get at WM, perhaps he deserves to be
WalMarted. Call it marketplace Darwinism, if you wish, but the phenomenon
certainly precedes Darwin by a few millennia. I am reminded of the story of
Og, the caveman who invented, manufactured, and sold the first stone wheels.
He was forced out of business by his neighbor Mook, who used slave labor to
make a higher quality wheel that featured white sidewalls, and sold at a
lower price. Og was a crotchety old cuss who grunted and never smiled,
while Mook had the lingo, handshake and hairdo of a prehistoric evangelist.
Out of desperation, Og took his hat in his hand and begged Mook for a job,
and was given a position in the service bay, where he got even greasier than
he was.
>>> Sam Walton started out his company and made it grow with "Made in
>>> America" marketing and now I never hear that phrase in any of the
>>> advertising. Walmart is big enough to influence manufacturing here
>>> in the USA but they seem to want to use there expansion into China
>>> as more profitable way to go. (just a feeling I have not a researchable
>>> item)
>
> You can infer that from their own descriptions of how they do their
> purchasing. You can hear less flattering descriptions from vendors
> who have had their margins squeezed to the point where their mark-ups
> are barely enough to make it worth doing business. Some of them even
> have stopped selling to WM because they can't sell at the prices WM
> demands - especially where they are being played off against Chinese
> producers.
When my wife was in her MBA program, she told me of how her instructors
showcased those practices. I can see the result of those practices in the
conspicuous absence of certain name brands from WM shelves. It's as if the
stockboys have been told, "Close out the two facings of Peter Pan peanut
butter so we can expand the facings of Jif from 14 to 16." I was appalled
at first, but now my reaction is, "It's nothing personal, it's just
business." I'm just guessing, of course. Perhaps instead it's that the CEO
doesn't want to carry a product that features a male fairy on its label.
>> I remember when they flogged "Made in America" as well. But, after I
>> posted this morning, I thought some more and came up with the
>> tentative observation that places like Ace Hardware or Safeway
>> really don't sell American-made goods in any greater proportion than
>> does Walmart. Stanley Tools are Stanley Tools, and Campbell's Soup
>> is Campbell's Soup, no matter whose shelves they occupy.
>
> Chinese goods are like what they say about assholes and opinions. Every
> store owner has them. But I'd bet a Chinese counterfeit of
> your choice that WM has more Chinese goods per square foot of floor
> space than anyone except an Oriental grocery store. And even if they
> are only #2 or #20, the sheer volume of their sales has an impact
> like no other retailer.
You might wish to reconsider that claim. Think Toys R Us.
> As I said, WM is only a part of the problem. It's their sheer size
> and dominance (along with the treatment of their workers) that makes
> them so conspicuous. WM's methods have become the new norm for
> retailers to aspire to. At the other end of the pipeline, you also
> have to blame the U.S. manufacturers that have shipped so much of
> their production overseas.
It all boils down to greed, doesn't it?
>>> I have never worked for the company but I have never talked to a ex
>>> employee who had anything good to say about them. Health insurance,
>>> work hours, respect, are not available for many if not most of the
>>> employees.
>>
>> I've never talked to an ex-employee of any company who had much good
>> to say about it.
>
> See my previous comment. As a medical retiree, I can now extend that
> to my former employer of 30 years. They weren't perfect and we all
> had the normal workplace gripes. But they were a good employer over
> my three decades and they treated me fairly and humanely after I
> became no longer able to work at my previous level of productivity. I was
> "disposable" but they didn't treat me like a used condom. YMMV
> and I know that many workers do get that treatment. WM is a poster
> child for that, but with good reason.
Betcha that if both FOX News and MSNBC each made their own documentary on
this topic, we'd see two documentaries 180 degrees apart in point of view
and conclusions.
>>> Now I will buy American where I can and I will pay more for those
>>> items that I can find but if you look in my driveway there is a
>>> contradiction as I own a Ford F150, A Japanese Toyota Prius and 2
>>> German Smart cars.
>>>
>>> BTW I also don't do harbor Freight and some other companies who
>>> specialize in "made in China Products".
>
> Cars are a bit of a special case. When a foreign manufacturer imports
> certain parts, makes some of them here, and completely assembles them
> here, where do you draw a line on "American made? I don't have as
> much of a problem with those cars. But when a widget on a shelf is
> labelled "Made in China" its status is obvious.
You probably should stay away from bookstores if that bothers you. I just
checked my copy of the newest QDB book on colonial and early American coins,
as well as the two most recent titles that I purchased from the American
Numismatic Society. Guess where they were manufactured. They aren't
cheapies, either.
>> Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than
>> the guy who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to
>> patronize businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
>
> I don't give an imported fig for what the other guy does or thinks. And
> IMO boycotting WM does make you better than the next guy. I am
> sometimes (but *not* always) paying more to walk the walk on what I
> consider to be a moral principle. The other guy isn't buying at WM
> to uphold his belief in free enterprise or WM's methods. He's buying
> there because he saves a few bucks.
To paraphrase the punchline of an old joke, "We've already established what
kind of boy you are, now we're just talking degree."
>>>> If you have a different take on this, I'm interested in hearing it.
>>>>
>>>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go
>>>>> there when there are no other reasonable sources.
>
> Which can be the case where WM has nuked too many of the local
> suppliers.
How many is too many?
>>>> Isn't it great that in America, we have a choice of where to buy!
>>>> People who are interested more in the bottom line, though,
>>>> generally vote with their feet and point them toward Walmart, and there
>>>> are a
>>>> lot of them, at least from where I sit and observe.
>
> Of course. As with capitalism, there is nothing wrong with
> competition per se. It's the application of it that sometimes
> crosses a line.
And each of us knows eactly where that line is, don't we?
>> George
>>>
>>> PS I can't find out who really said what is in my sig line. But it
>>> is true as far as I know......
>>
>> As far as you know? I suppose I should ask for five corroborative
>> examples, but instead I invite you to follow this link:
>>
>> http://wiki.monticello.org/mediawiki/index.php/The_democracy_will_cease_to_exist
>>
>> By the way, no one has ever provided documentation that Marie
>> Antoinette ever said "Let them eat cake" either. Thus do we
>> fabricate and attribute quotes to suit our own agendas.
>>
>> James, who judiciously avoids saying anything quotable
>
> Deep Throat probably never said "Follow the money" to Woodward and
> Bernstein. It was inserted as a line of dialogue in the movie "All
> the President's Men" but according to an interview I heard years ago
> with one of the writers or producers, when it was pointed out that it
> wasn't in the book, he checked and by golly, he couldn't find it and
> had no idea how it got into the script. He allowed that perhaps he
> had conflated some discussion he had with Woodstein where they told
> him that they had started to follow a money trail. Nevertheless, it
> made for good dialogue - so much so that it later became a
> catch-phrase for all kinds of unrelated situations.
Since the coming of Walter Breen, 24/7 cable tv, and the internet, we are
awash in an overwhelming sea of just plain made-up stuff in slick,
attractive packaging, that is becoming more and more indistinguishable from
the real thing. What's a guy to do? Hey, I know, let's create a government
agency, headed by an information czar, to sort wheat from chaff and maybe
publish a weekly newsletter containing truth that they found. It'd probably
fit on one side of the agency letterhead.
James the Pamphleteer
Jerry Dennis
> mazorj wrote:
> > "George D" <geod...@arizona.com> wrote in message
>
> - Show quoted text -
I googled "Famous Quotes," copied George's quote into the various
sites' search engines, and those that had it listed attributed it to
Jefferson. As to the original writing or speech, none of the sites
stated where.
Jerry
Half the people are apathetic; the other half don't care.
Mr. Jaggers
Jerry: "What's the difference between ignorance and apathy?"
James: "I don't know and I don't care."
I also Googled the quote. There were dozens of sites that attributed the
quote to TJ, but that doesn't confer authenticity. As you know, I'm big on
authenticity, whether it be coins, religious claims, or political claims.
Primary sources always get my attention.
James the Curs�d
mazorj
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> mazorj wrote:
...
>> True, you can't blame WalMart for everything or even for most of
>> the
>> economic decay. You can't blame a corner drug dealer for all our
>> drug
>> problems but that doesn't excuse him. He's still doing wrong and
>> contributing to the problem. Only in this analogy, WalMart would
>> be
>> the biggest drug importer in the world. (And no, I'm not equating
>> WM
>> to drug dealers. It's just an analogy.)
>
> The corner drug dealer is breaking the law. Walmart is not. I fail
> to see an analogy here.
Not everything legal is right or moral or ethical.
...
>> In my younger days I worked for small local businesses. There were
>> one or two jerks but most of them treated me decently and humanely.
>> I worked my ass off and didn't make much, but for them even
>> "disposable" entry-level workers deserved to be treated with
>> dignity
>> and respect.
>
> The ones I worked for would send me out on a job, pay me X, and bill
> the customer for 2X, in addition to charging their usual retail
> markup for the goods and materials I installed. Let's discuss the
> morality of that practice sometime.
Overhead. What was their bottom line after factoring in all costs?
Even at minimum wage, your "cost" to the owner was significantly more
than what showed on your pay stub. Do you think that the auto repair
shop that bills $75/hour for labor is paying that to the mechanic?
Barbers, beauticians, and most other shop workers typically split the
customer's bill anywhere from 60-40 to 40-60. If they use a company
vehicle and equipment on the job, their cut may be even less.
>>> Here in North Lugburz, a consortium of local businessmen
>>> successfully
>>> thwarted the coming of Walmart to town about three decades ago.
>>> Ironically, over the subsequent few years they mostly all closed
>>> up
>>> shop anyway, and had been gone for two decades when Walmart
>>> finally
>>> did come in the late 90s.
>>
>> Sometimes it happens that way, James, but there have been plenty of
>> stories where the local businesses were still making a living up
>> until they got WalMarted. And yes, some of the previous owners and
>> employees ended up working there because local employment
>> opportunities had been nuked.
>
> I have yet to see any reliable documentation of claims such as
> these.
Interviews with affected individuals and local community leaders don't
count?
> In any event, if a local businessman cannot counterpoint his higher
> prices with something his customers want and can't get at WM,
> perhaps he deserves to be WalMarted. Call it marketplace Darwinism,
> if you wish, but the phenomenon certainly precedes Darwin by a few
> millennia. I am reminded of the story of Og, the caveman who
> invented, manufactured, and sold the first stone wheels. He was
> forced out of business by his neighbor Mook, who used slave labor to
> make a higher quality wheel that featured white sidewalls, and sold
> at a lower price. Og was a crotchety old cuss who grunted and never
> smiled, while Mook had the lingo, handshake and hairdo of a
> prehistoric evangelist. Out of desperation, Og took his hat in his
> hand and begged Mook for a job, and was given a position in the
> service bay, where he got even greasier than he was.
Read this, James. WM is not your father's department store.
http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090909/us_time/08599192069800
...
>> You can infer that from their own descriptions of how they do their
>> purchasing. You can hear less flattering descriptions from vendors
>> who have had their margins squeezed to the point where their
>> mark-ups
>> are barely enough to make it worth doing business. Some of them
>> even
>> have stopped selling to WM because they can't sell at the prices WM
>> demands - especially where they are being played off against
>> Chinese producers.
>
> When my wife was in her MBA program, she told me of how her
> instructors showcased those practices. I can see the result of
> those practices in the conspicuous absence of certain name brands
> from WM shelves. It's as if the stockboys have been told, "Close
> out the two facings of Peter Pan peanut butter so we can expand the
> facings of Jif from 14 to 16." I was appalled at first, but now my
> reaction is, "It's nothing personal, it's just business." I'm just
> guessing, of course. Perhaps instead it's that the CEO doesn't want
> to carry a product that features a male fairy on its label.
Most POS (Point of Sale, not the other one) practices are driven by
paid incentives. When I worked in a drug store we got memos sternly
instructing us to keep the countertop display for Product X
prominently in place blocking our view from behind the counter because
the X company was paying for the space. The same happens for shelf
POS space. It may be in the form of a flat fee, or a rebate for
product sold per time period. You're right, it's "jest bidness" but
Product Y is free to pay the same brib- er, incentives.
...
>> Chinese goods are like what they say about assholes and opinions.
>> Every store owner has them. But I'd bet a Chinese counterfeit of
>> your choice that WM has more Chinese goods per square foot of floor
>> space than anyone except an Oriental grocery store. And even if
>> they
>> are only #2 or #20, the sheer volume of their sales has an impact
>> like no other retailer.
>
> You might wish to reconsider that claim. Think Toys R Us.
Point taken. Ironically, note from the Time story that WM is
targeting Toys-R-Us.
>> As I said, WM is only a part of the problem. It's their sheer size
>> and dominance (along with the treatment of their workers) that
>> makes
>> them so conspicuous. WM's methods have become the new norm for
>> retailers to aspire to. At the other end of the pipeline, you also
>> have to blame the U.S. manufacturers that have shipped so much of
>> their production overseas.
>
> It all boils down to greed, doesn't it?
Yes. Follow the money.
...
>>> I've never talked to an ex-employee of any company who had much
>>> good
>>> to say about it.
>>
>> See my previous comment. As a medical retiree, I can now extend
>> that
>> to my former employer of 30 years. They weren't perfect and we all
>> had the normal workplace gripes. But they were a good employer
>> over
>> my three decades and they treated me fairly and humanely after I
>> became no longer able to work at my previous level of productivity.
>> I was "disposable" but they didn't treat me like a used condom.
>> YMMV
>> and I know that many workers do get that treatment. WM is a poster
>> child for that, but with good reason.
>
> Betcha that if both FOX News and MSNBC each made their own
> documentary on this topic, we'd see two documentaries 180 degrees
> apart in point of view and conclusions.
Because there legitimately are two stories to tell. It's just that
IMO WM's sins outweigh their benefits to society.
...
>> Cars are a bit of a special case. When a foreign manufacturer
>> imports
>> certain parts, makes some of them here, and completely assembles
>> them
>> here, where do you draw a line on "American made? I don't have as
>> much of a problem with those cars. But when a widget on a shelf is
>> labelled "Made in China" its status is obvious.
>
> You probably should stay away from bookstores if that bothers you.
> I just checked my copy of the newest QDB book on colonial and early
> American coins, as well as the two most recent titles that I
> purchased from the American Numismatic Society. Guess where they
> were manufactured. They aren't cheapies, either.
Oy. Is nothing sacred any more?
>>> Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than
>>> the guy who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to
>>> patronize businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
>>
>> I don't give an imported fig for what the other guy does or thinks.
>> And IMO boycotting WM does make you better than the next guy. I am
>> sometimes (but *not* always) paying more to walk the walk on what I
>> consider to be a moral principle. The other guy isn't buying at WM
>> to uphold his belief in free enterprise or WM's methods. He's
>> buying
>> there because he saves a few bucks.
>
> To paraphrase the punchline of an old joke, "We've already
> established what kind of boy you are, now we're just talking
> degree."
When it comes to WM, it's the Nth degree.
...
>>>>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go
>>>>>> there when there are no other reasonable sources.
>>
>> Which can be the case where WM has nuked too many of the local
>> suppliers.
>
> How many is too many?
Enough that it becomes too costly in terms of time, gas, and money to
seek out the remaining local suppliers. There will be some, but the
types of products and services can be far less than before and may be
geographically out of the question. As you say, it's a matter of
degree.
...
>> As with capitalism, there is nothing wrong with
>> competition per se. It's the application of it that sometimes
>> crosses a line.
>
> And each of us knows eactly where that line is, don't we?
In terms of our own values, yes. It may boil down to "I know it when
I see it" but everyone is his own referee in this game.
...
>> Deep Throat probably never said "Follow the money" to Woodward and
>> Bernstein. It was inserted as a line of dialogue in the movie "All
>> the President's Men" but according to an interview I heard years
>> ago
>> with one of the writers or producers, when it was pointed out that
>> it
>> wasn't in the book, he checked and by golly, he couldn't find it
>> and
>> had no idea how it got into the script. He allowed that perhaps he
>> had conflated some discussion he had with Woodstein where they told
>> him that they had started to follow a money trail. Nevertheless,
>> it
>> made for good dialogue - so much so that it later became a
>> catch-phrase for all kinds of unrelated situations.
>
> Since the coming of Walter Breen, 24/7 cable tv, and the internet,
> we are awash in an overwhelming sea of just plain made-up stuff in
> slick, attractive packaging, that is becoming more and more
> indistinguishable from the real thing. What's a guy to do? Hey, I
> know, let's create a government agency, headed by an information
> czar, to sort wheat from chaff and maybe publish a weekly newsletter
> containing truth that they found. It'd probably fit on one side of
> the agency letterhead.
>
> James the Pamphleteer
Oh, but... but... but private enterprise already does that for us,
James. Fox and talk radio have shown us the light and the truth and
the way. And they don't even need to waste a whole side of a sheet of
paper. Usually, a bumper sticker will suffice.
- mazorj, Grand WalMart Inquisitor, 32nd Degree
Mr. Jaggers
> "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
> news:h88hv...@enews2.newsguy.com...
>> mazorj wrote:
>
> ...
>>> True, you can't blame WalMart for everything or even for most of
>>> the
>>> economic decay. You can't blame a corner drug dealer for all our
>>> drug
>>> problems but that doesn't excuse him. He's still doing wrong and
>>> contributing to the problem. Only in this analogy, WalMart would
>>> be
>>> the biggest drug importer in the world. (And no, I'm not equating
>>> WM
>>> to drug dealers. It's just an analogy.)
>>
>> The corner drug dealer is breaking the law. Walmart is not. I fail
>> to see an analogy here.
>
> Not everything legal is right or moral or ethical.
Agreed.
>>> In my younger days I worked for small local businesses. There were
>>> one or two jerks but most of them treated me decently and humanely.
>>> I worked my ass off and didn't make much, but for them even
>>> "disposable" entry-level workers deserved to be treated with
>>> dignity
>>> and respect.
>>
>> The ones I worked for would send me out on a job, pay me X, and bill
>> the customer for 2X, in addition to charging their usual retail
>> markup for the goods and materials I installed. Let's discuss the
>> morality of that practice sometime.
>
> Overhead. What was their bottom line after factoring in all costs?
> Even at minimum wage, your "cost" to the owner was significantly more
> than what showed on your pay stub. Do you think that the auto repair
> shop that bills $75/hour for labor is paying that to the mechanic?
> Barbers, beauticians, and most other shop workers typically split the
> customer's bill anywhere from 60-40 to 40-60. If they use a company
> vehicle and equipment on the job, their cut may be even less.
I had to make out the bills myself, which I viewed and still view as rubbing
my nose in it.
>>>> Here in North Lugburz, a consortium of local businessmen
>>>> successfully
>>>> thwarted the coming of Walmart to town about three decades ago.
>>>> Ironically, over the subsequent few years they mostly all closed
>>>> up
>>>> shop anyway, and had been gone for two decades when Walmart
>>>> finally
>>>> did come in the late 90s.
>>>
>>> Sometimes it happens that way, James, but there have been plenty of
>>> stories where the local businesses were still making a living up
>>> until they got WalMarted. And yes, some of the previous owners and
>>> employees ended up working there because local employment
>>> opportunities had been nuked.
>>
>> I have yet to see any reliable documentation of claims such as
>> these.
>
> Interviews with affected individuals and local community leaders don't
> count?
I'm looking for documentation beyond anecdotal, and preferably of at least
regional scope.
>> In any event, if a local businessman cannot counterpoint his higher
>> prices with something his customers want and can't get at WM,
>> perhaps he deserves to be WalMarted. Call it marketplace Darwinism,
>> if you wish, but the phenomenon certainly precedes Darwin by a few
>> millennia. I am reminded of the story of Og, the caveman who
>> invented, manufactured, and sold the first stone wheels. He was
>> forced out of business by his neighbor Mook, who used slave labor to
>> make a higher quality wheel that featured white sidewalls, and sold
>> at a lower price. Og was a crotchety old cuss who grunted and never
>> smiled, while Mook had the lingo, handshake and hairdo of a
>> prehistoric evangelist. Out of desperation, Og took his hat in his
>> hand and begged Mook for a job, and was given a position in the
>> service bay, where he got even greasier than he was.
>
> Read this, James. WM is not your father's department store.
> http://news.yahoo.com/s/time/20090909/us_time/08599192069800
I saw that, maybe it was the same day I posted, even. But perhaps we are
really arguing the Times theory of history versus the Great Man theory of
history.
I hate it when that happens. There are places I patronize (gas-stop
convenience stores, for instance) that have so much apcray on and around the
counter that there's almost no room to tender payment.
>>> Chinese goods are like what they say about assholes and opinions.
>>> Every store owner has them. But I'd bet a Chinese counterfeit of
>>> your choice that WM has more Chinese goods per square foot of floor
>>> space than anyone except an Oriental grocery store. And even if
>>> they
>>> are only #2 or #20, the sheer volume of their sales has an impact
>>> like no other retailer.
>>
>> You might wish to reconsider that claim. Think Toys R Us.
>
> Point taken. Ironically, note from the Time story that WM is
> targeting Toys-R-Us.
A scary thought indeed.
>>> As I said, WM is only a part of the problem. It's their sheer size
>>> and dominance (along with the treatment of their workers) that
>>> makes
>>> them so conspicuous. WM's methods have become the new norm for
>>> retailers to aspire to. At the other end of the pipeline, you also
>>> have to blame the U.S. manufacturers that have shipped so much of
>>> their production overseas.
>>
>> It all boils down to greed, doesn't it?
>
> Yes. Follow the money.
Whenever I attempt to follow it, it outruns me.
>>>> I've never talked to an ex-employee of any company who had much
>>>> good
>>>> to say about it.
>>>
>>> See my previous comment. As a medical retiree, I can now extend
>>> that
>>> to my former employer of 30 years. They weren't perfect and we all
>>> had the normal workplace gripes. But they were a good employer
>>> over
>>> my three decades and they treated me fairly and humanely after I
>>> became no longer able to work at my previous level of productivity.
>>> I was "disposable" but they didn't treat me like a used condom.
>>> YMMV
>>> and I know that many workers do get that treatment. WM is a poster
>>> child for that, but with good reason.
>>
>> Betcha that if both FOX News and MSNBC each made their own
>> documentary on this topic, we'd see two documentaries 180 degrees
>> apart in point of view and conclusions.
>
> Because there legitimately are two stories to tell. It's just that
> IMO WM's sins outweigh their benefits to society.
The supermarket, which is one mile and one stoplight from me, sells for
$5.98 the same box of ice cream that I can get for $2.50 at WM, which is
three miles and six stoplights from me. Whence my conflict.
>>> Cars are a bit of a special case. When a foreign manufacturer
>>> imports
>>> certain parts, makes some of them here, and completely assembles
>>> them
>>> here, where do you draw a line on "American made? I don't have as
>>> much of a problem with those cars. But when a widget on a shelf is
>>> labelled "Made in China" its status is obvious.
>>
>> You probably should stay away from bookstores if that bothers you.
>> I just checked my copy of the newest QDB book on colonial and early
>> American coins, as well as the two most recent titles that I
>> purchased from the American Numismatic Society. Guess where they
>> were manufactured. They aren't cheapies, either.
>
> Oy. Is nothing sacred any more?
Nope, and never was.
>>>> Perfectly within your rights, but it hardly makes you better than
>>>> the guy who does, especially in his mind. As for me, I refuse to
>>>> patronize businesses that sell U.S. coins that were made in China.
>>>
>>> I don't give an imported fig for what the other guy does or thinks.
>>> And IMO boycotting WM does make you better than the next guy. I am
>>> sometimes (but *not* always) paying more to walk the walk on what I
>>> consider to be a moral principle. The other guy isn't buying at WM
>>> to uphold his belief in free enterprise or WM's methods. He's
>>> buying
>>> there because he saves a few bucks.
>>
>> To paraphrase the punchline of an old joke, "We've already
>> established what kind of boy you are, now we're just talking
>> degree."
>
> When it comes to WM, it's the Nth degree.
Where N equals minus b plus or minus the square root of b squared minus four
ac, all over two a. No, wait, that's the formula for Coca-Cola.
>>>>>>> I have not been in a Walmart store for Years and will only go
>>>>>>> there when there are no other reasonable sources.
>>>
>>> Which can be the case where WM has nuked too many of the local
>>> suppliers.
>>
>> How many is too many?
>
> Enough that it becomes too costly in terms of time, gas, and money to
> seek out the remaining local suppliers. There will be some, but the
> types of products and services can be far less than before and may be
> geographically out of the question. As you say, it's a matter of
> degree.
The limiting case, of course, is when Walmart becomes the only entity in
town. That has not occurred - yet.
>>> As with capitalism, there is nothing wrong with
>>> competition per se. It's the application of it that sometimes
>>> crosses a line.
>>
>> And each of us knows eactly where that line is, don't we?
>
> In terms of our own values, yes. It may boil down to "I know it when
> I see it" but everyone is his own referee in this game.
You speak great truth!
Don't get me started...
James of Few Words