PCGS Grading
GregD
I have fairly recently become active in coin collecting again. I would like
to hear from some of you your thoughts on PCGS and their inconsistent, at
least to me, grading. I was on of many who took advantage of the offer to
join the PCGS collectors club and have submitted several dozen coins
(Morgans) with almost laughable results. Most recently, I sent in two
1884 -O Morgans direct from a mint bag that had been in storage for a long
time. the coins had beautiful rainbow toning. The lesser of the two coins
they graded as a 63, and the better of the two was sent back in a body bag
saying it had questionable toning. I have many slabbed Morgans from PCGS and
others that I use as my "benchmark" to try to get a feel what my coins
should come back at, so I know what the coins grade (pretty close anyhow).
Any thoughts from you folks as to a better grading service, or is this all
part of the game today.?
Let me know,
PETERSONRA
In article <Gwru2.41$hQ.5...@iagnews.iagnet.net>, "GregD"
<Gdr...@mango-bay.com> writes:
>Subject: PCGS Grading
>From: "GregD" <Gdr...@mango-bay.com>
>Date: Fri, 05 Feb 1999 01:08:54 GMT
the more cynical people here might suggest you submit them through one of
pcgs's favored dealers (the ones long rumored to get special treatment). or
perhaps if you submitted 100 at a time they might have let that one slide past.
J Engelken
I have fairly recently become active in coin collecting again. I would like
to hear from some of you your thoughts on PCGS and their inconsistent, at
least to me, grading. I was on of many who took advantage of the offer to
join the PCGS collectors club and have submitted several dozen coins
(Morgans) with almost laughable results. Most recently, I sent in two
1884 -O Morgans direct from a mint bag that had been in storage for a long
time. the coins had beautiful rainbow toning. The lesser of the two coins
they graded as a 63, and the better of the two was sent back in a body bag
saying it had questionable toning. I have many slabbed Morgans from PCGS and
others that I use as my "benchmark" to try to get a feel what my coins
should come back at, so I know what the coins grade (pretty close anyhow).
Any thoughts from you folks as to a better grading service, or is this all
part of the game today.?
Let me know,
I apologize to the PCGS faithful, but in my opinion, they have become the
"prostitute" of coin certification. They go for the big money! You'll come
out well if you are fortunate enough to have "most favored dealer
status"...that is, in the eyes of PCGS, your in the "good ole boy" network.
This would be the upper end of the numismatic ladder in money spent with
them for certification. Also, many of the "big boys" get preferential
treatment based upon who they are. The rest of us get whatever they're in
the mood to give us on any given day. Don't get me wrong, I'm not a PCGS
basher. When the started out, they had good intentions and were actually
criticized for grading to tough. But, they eventually compromised their
integrity and loosened up on their grading standards. I know many people
who seek out the original PCGS holders for coins that have been undergraded
to crack them out and resubmit them for a higher grade! They do add a bit
of electricity to it all though. You can submit a coin as you mentioned,
that you know is problem free and get it back in a body bag. You can also
submit a coin and get a pleasant surprise in the mail when it comes back a
much higher grade than you would have dreamed possible (I had a had a large
cent that barely made VF slabbed as EF, for example.) And last but not
least, you can submit a coin and have it come back correctly graded (it
happens). It's this inconsistent grading that makes them exciting to me!
It's like the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks...you never know what to
expect, and that makes it fun, in a perverse way! Still they're not
horrible, just confused sometimes...as we all are. Speaking from my
personal experiences with the various grading services, I would rate them:
#1 PCI, #2 NGC, #3 ANACS, and #4 PCGS. However, one must not lose sight of
the fact that this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of anyone
else. Also, please pardon any errors in spelling or punctuation...I post it
raw! I will now put on my asbestos suit. Fire at will!
Jeff
Harry Smith
I have come to beleive (with no direct evidence except observation) that
PCGS is applying different (and much more severe) standards to the the
"Blue Label" people!
Harry
----------------
Mike Locke
and get it back with a spectacular grade. AU55 on a coin that
has been bent and straightened. AU58 on a bright white XF coin
that you dipped yourself and that has the luster of a coin that
has been given the pencil eraser treatment. Large cents do seem
to be the worst overgrades. I've seen pieces that I would hesitate
to call as high as XF cleaned sitting in MS62 slabs.
I would rate ICCS at least on par with PCI, and give Hallmark (the
company that went out of business for grading too tough!) the
top rating. Hallmark slabs rarely sell below grey sheet, unlike
other slabs that need a "blue sheet" to understand how far they
are overgraded on average.
J Engelken wrote:
>
...
> of electricity to it all though. You can submit a coin as you mentioned,
> that you know is problem free and get it back in a body bag. You can also
> submit a coin and get a pleasant surprise in the mail when it comes back a
> much higher grade than you would have dreamed possible (I had a had a large
> cent that barely made VF slabbed as EF, for example.) And last but not
> least, you can submit a coin and have it come back correctly graded (it
> happens). It's this inconsistent grading that makes them exciting to me!
> It's like the prize in a box of Cracker Jacks...you never know what to
> expect, and that makes it fun, in a perverse way! Still they're not
> horrible, just confused sometimes...as we all are. Speaking from my
> personal experiences with the various grading services, I would rate them:
> #1 PCI, #2 NGC, #3 ANACS, and #4 PCGS. However, one must not lose sight of
> the fact that this is my opinion and not necessarily the opinion of anyone
> else. Also, please pardon any errors in spelling or punctuation...I post it
> raw! I will now put on my asbestos suit. Fire at will!
>
> Jeff
--
S'later, Mike Locke kar...@rahul.net
Mike is EAC #4357, LSCC #1636, JRCS #841, ANA #R-170301, CCS #F11
SPPN life member, Australian N.S. #1747, CNS #19309
Visit http://www.rahul.net/karenml for Calgold info and other stuff
Ken Barr
>Hi,
>
>I have fairly recently become active in coin collecting again. I would like
>to hear from some of you your thoughts on PCGS and their inconsistent, at
>least to me, grading. <snip>
The good news is that your PCGS coins get better over time ...
PCGS graded the Adams specimen of the 1804 Draped Bust $1
as a PF-45 in 1993, then regraded it as a PF-58 in 1998.
I can't wait until 2003 when it will probably turn into an
PF-71 ...
--
Ken Barr Numismatics e-mail: k...@kenbarr.com
P. O. Box 32541 website: http://www.kenbarr.com
San Jose, CA 95152-2541 (souvenir cards, MPC, Hickey Bros. tokens)
408-272-3247 Next show: Long Beach 2/10-11 (no table)
Harold Cooke
I really have to agree with most of you, I have lost ALL faith in not
only PCGS but mostly all of the graders. If you asked me what one grades
most consistently, I would not have an answer.
TOO MAY TIMES, I have gone through the re-submission game. One particular
coin was an 1826 Capped Bust Half that I purchased raw and I had pegged
for an easy 65. Sent it off to PCGS, 1st time, got an AU58. Did not
believe it so I cracked it out again and sent it back. THE SAME COIN now
came back bagged as ''cleaned'' and could not be slabbed. Held on to it
for a while longer ,sent it in to NGC and got it back an MS60. Still
thinking it was a better grade, cracked it out again, sent it in to PCI
and got an MS62. Cracked it out again and sent it to ANACS and its now
its in a 64 holder and I am happy now. So, from an AU58 to and MS64.
EXPLAIN THAT!!!! Thats 5 variables in grades.
Another situation was with an 1866 Shield Nickel that I openly sold to a
local customer of mine. I sold the coin as an MS63 raw. The buyer of this
coin sent it to PCGS through the collector's club. He was very upset when
the coin was returned in a bag as ''cleaned''. He immediately demanded a
refund, which I gave him. I sent the coin to PCGS and got it back in a 63
holder. Figure it out. Anyway, I honestly believe that ANY grading
service is at the mercy of the employee grading the coin. And at best, is
only his opinion based on what he thinks. You can give the same coin to
one of his co-workers and he will assign it what he thinks.
I also believe from experience, that ALL of the graders are much more
strict when they are grading a more valuable coin.
How many of you have common date Morgans in 65 holders that you would not
think would grade a 62. Then, the more valuable a coin gets, all of a
sudden, you look at a coin and say, this coin should be a 64 not a 62.
I have several coins like this. for example, I have an 1879CC slabbed an
MS62, but if it was a common 84O or some other real common date, it would
be in a 65 holder. This,,,, I have also seen alot.
Well, that my opinions on graders, and it is my opinion.
PFDJR
>>>....I also believe from experience, that ALL of the graders are much more
strict when they are grading a more valuable coin.....<<<
I too suspect that this may be true.
I recently got a great buy on a 1941-S Walking Liberty Half Dollar on Ebay. The
seller described the coin as showing some signs of wear....but also posted an
image. I immediately recognized the "wear" to be a typical "S" Mint weak
strike.
I e-mailed the seller and told her of her mistake. I also told her that from
her scan I would grade the coin as at least MS-63 and possibly MS-64. I
recommended ending the auction and getting the coin slabbed. She declined and
said she would take whatever she could get for it.......she ended up taking my
$41.
I received the coin a few days ago and it is a solid MS-64....perhaps an MS-65.
My immediate reaction was to send it off to be slabbed. After all, if it came
back a 65 it would jump $1000 in value.
To make a long story short (too late)....I put the coin in an Eagle holder and
in my album. I reckoned that because of the big jump in price a grader would be
very hesitant to give out a grade of 65.
Just shows you what power the grading services have.
***************************
Phil DeMayo
Coinmasters 1188
ANA R-182606
e-mail: pf...@aol.com
***************************
TOMDORSCH
<PCGS graded the Adams specimen of the 1804 Draped Bust $1
<as a PF-45 in 1993, then regraded it as a PF-58 in 1998.
<I can't wait until 2003 when it will probably turn into an
<PF-71 ...
In an obvious attempt to substitute profitability for
ethical practices, they have started grading PF-70s
for all modern series back to at least 1970. When they
see this pays off, there is no reason to believe that they
will not start raising grades for earlier series in the
hope of making more money from resubmissions.
This whole business has stopped me cold from ever
sending another coin to PCGS.
I'm going to try the ICGS approach. Maybe they have some
of the answers to the corruption that degrades slabbing
companies like PCGS.
Regards, Tom
GBIECoins
credibility to ICG's system of anonymous forwarding through a third-pary
receiving company.
Terry.
Michael Berkman
behind third party grading.
Richard Adams
see the coin, It works pretty well for me at a coin shop or show. To be
frank, I think slab holders are ugly.
Harold Cooke <GAD...@prodigy.com> typed with fingers of fury:
: I really have to agree with most of you, I have lost ALL faith in not
: only PCGS but mostly all of the graders. If you asked me what one grades
: most consistently, I would not have an answer.
: TOO MAY TIMES, I have gone through the re-submission game. One particular
: coin was an 1826 Capped Bust Half that I purchased raw and I had pegged
: for an easy 65. Sent it off to PCGS, 1st time, got an AU58. Did not
: believe it so I cracked it out again and sent it back. THE SAME COIN now
: came back bagged as ''cleaned'' and could not be slabbed. Held on to it
: for a while longer ,sent it in to NGC and got it back an MS60. Still
: thinking it was a better grade, cracked it out again, sent it in to PCI
: and got an MS62. Cracked it out again and sent it to ANACS and its now
: its in a 64 holder and I am happy now. So, from an AU58 to and MS64.
: EXPLAIN THAT!!!! Thats 5 variables in grades.
: Another situation was with an 1866 Shield Nickel that I openly sold to a
: local customer of mine. I sold the coin as an MS63 raw. The buyer of this
: coin sent it to PCGS through the collector's club. He was very upset when
: the coin was returned in a bag as ''cleaned''. He immediately demanded a
: refund, which I gave him. I sent the coin to PCGS and got it back in a 63
: holder. Figure it out. Anyway, I honestly believe that ANY grading
: service is at the mercy of the employee grading the coin. And at best, is
: only his opinion based on what he thinks. You can give the same coin to
: one of his co-workers and he will assign it what he thinks.
: I also believe from experience, that ALL of the graders are much more
: strict when they are grading a more valuable coin.
: How many of you have common date Morgans in 65 holders that you would not
: think would grade a 62. Then, the more valuable a coin gets, all of a
: sudden, you look at a coin and say, this coin should be a 64 not a 62.
: I have several coins like this. for example, I have an 1879CC slabbed an
: MS62, but if it was a common 84O or some other real common date, it would
: be in a 65 holder. This,,,, I have also seen alot.
:
Jeffrey Saltzman
coin before they are slabbed to ensure that their grading is consistent.
I know it's true because they told me so <laughing my ass off>
Jeffrey Saltzman
PF70DC right out-of-the-gate. And I'm talkin NUMEROUS here