Re: Utah Returning to Gold Standard
ste...@no.spam.sbcglobal.net
On 5-Mar-2011, "Roy-in-Roy" <fred...@uswest.net> wrote:
> 12. Close public housing and restart the program to give each family 60
> acres to farm on, teaching them be self sufficent or die.
No mule ?
Frank Provasek
> ICSoccer <icsoc...@stormfront.org> wrote in news:Xns9E9F76B87A045jhj@
> 94.75.214.39:
>
> > Utah is returning to the gold standard.
>
> >http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-
> > silver-coins/#comment
>
> We need to have the treasury issue "greenbacks" in $100,000, $50,000,
> $10,000, $5,000 and $1,000 sizes to retire the $14 Trillion national
> debt. No more interest, and our debtors would have non-interest bearing
> notes/currency. So, what can they with it except spend it on US
> products... Can you see the economy grow???
>
> In addition, make it illegal for a foreign nationals to own or lease
> property in the US. Not only would our economy grow, but we would have a
> full employment society, negates much of the need for government
> spending.
>
> 1. Require all green cards to be cancelled and all persons not citizens
> to leave the country over a 30 day exodus.
>
So you want people here LEGALLY, much needed doctors and engineers, to
leave?
>
> 2. Major program to become energy independent by opening up the Bakken
> oil reserves, building 15 new refineries in the US, Convert Coal to
> synthetic fuel as did Germany in WW II to bring fuel prices down to
> $0.59/gallon.
>
My alma mater is working on this, and $4 bucks a gallon is more
likely. No free lunch, but at least
the money stays in the USA.
> 3. Eliminate All taxes at State, Local, Federal levels. ALL Taxes,
> including property tax, sales tax, all fees and special licenses, all
> income taxes and replace with a single national sales tax of 23%
>
A 23% sales tax is regressive, and falls much more heavily on the poor
and middle class. Bad idea.
> 4. Eliminate all Social Security and Medicare; require each family to
> have a savings account to be responsable for their own medical and
> retirement costs. Each ward and stake take care of the indignent.
>
You realize (no, you don't) that Social Security and Medicare are
INSURANCE programs?
What happens to someone who gets cancer or disabled with only a few
thousand dollars in their
account?
> 5. Employers, because they no longer pay SS or Medicare/Medicaid, and
> there is no income tax, can cut wages by 25% or so with no loss to the
> employees.
>
So you are cutting wages MORE than the combined SS and Medicare taxes,
but people
are still supposed to save for their retirement and medical care?
With what?
> 6. Restructure Welfare to be a training program. 6 month maximum.
> Trained to help meet the needs of a full employment society. Even if the
> job is a janitor. With the economic growth, we will need all kinds of
> people to do all kinds of jobs.
>
Able bodied adults have been required to work since Clinton's reforms
in 1995.
> 7. Restructure the legal system to put career criminals to death based
> on a point system. For other prisoners, put them to work in the fields
> so they work for their keep.
>
You must have COTTON FIELDS in mind, since the US puts blacks in
prison 10 times the
rate of whites.
> 8. Eliminate the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the
> and the IRS.. the recommendations above negate their need. Privatize
> education. Home school or LDS Schools. Kick out problem and unpatriotic
> children, . REMEMBER, not everyone belongs in school. Put non performing
> blacks and other underperformers into working in the fields.
>
Racist enough?
>
> 9. Require all law suites to be reviewed for merit, fine the lawyer who
> brings a "nusance" law suit. Also change tort law so that the loser pays
> all court costs of both the plaintiff and the defendant. Limit awards to
> actual loss; establish a formula to determine loss value.
>
It's lawSUIT....and who decides when it's a nuisance lawsuit?
>
> 10. Eliminate the Federal Reserve, audit their books and prosecute the
> owners, as appropriate, for market manipulation.
>
Your evidence that that are manipulationg the market aside from their
mandated role of
maximum employment with minimum inflation?
> 11. Make Drug distribution a capital offense. Fine all drug users
> $250,000 for each occurrence.
>
Does that include Rush Limbaugh?
>
> 12. Close public housing and restart the program to give each family 60
> acres to farm on, teaching them be self sufficent or die.
Ahhh...somebody already mentioned the mule....
Beanie
news:bafb5722-30e2-4904...@s18g2000vbe.googlegroups.com...
> 7. Restructure the legal system to put career criminals to death based
> on a point system. For other prisoners, put them to work in the fields
> so they work for their keep.
>
You must have COTTON FIELDS in mind, since the US puts blacks in
prison 10 times the
rate of whites.
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-======------======-------
Maybe that's because our African-American brothers are committing violent crimes
10 times the rate of white.
I don't know how things are around your area but around here when a particularly
violent crime is committed, 9 times out of 10 it's committed by a black or
latino.
I'm not saying their aren't white criminals.
I'm just saying blacks commit violent crimes wildly disproportionate to their
percentage of the population.
When I read about a stabbing case, 99% of the time it involves latinos.
Rape seems to be equally divided between the latinos and the black. About 10%
are committed by caucasions.
Before the liberals here all start screaming RACIST RACIST - all these figures
can be found in the governments own reports.
Most of said reports get boiled down and the information printed in almanacs,
like the World or NY Times.
Bremick
"Roy-in-Roy" <fred...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9E9F7961...@94.75.214.39...
> ICSoccer <icso...@stormfront.org> wrote in news:Xns9E9F76B87A045jhj@
> 94.75.214.39:
>
>> Utah is returning to the gold standard.
>>
>>
>> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-
>> silver-coins/#comment
>>
>>
>>
>
> We need to have the treasury issue "greenbacks" in $100,000, $50,000,
> $10,000, $5,000 and $1,000 sizes to retire the $14 Trillion national
> debt. No more interest, and our debtors would have non-interest bearing
> notes/currency. So, what can they with it except spend it on US
> products... Can you see the economy grow???
>
> In addition, make it illegal for a foreign nationals to own or lease
> property in the US. Not only would our economy grow, but we would have a
> full employment society, negates much of the need for government
> spending.
>
> 1. Require all green cards to be cancelled and all persons not citizens
> to leave the country over a 30 day exodus.
We have less complex requirements today that seem impossible to enforce.
>
> 2. Major program to become energy independent by opening up the Bakken
> oil reserves, building 15 new refineries in the US, Convert Coal to
> synthetic fuel as did Germany in WW II to bring fuel prices down to
> $0.59/gallon.
Simple nuclear-powered windmills mounted atop our vehicles should provide a
simpler solution.
>
> 3. Eliminate All taxes at State, Local, Federal levels. ALL Taxes,
> including property tax, sales tax, all fees and special licenses, all
> income taxes and replace with a single national sales tax of 23%
That would only encourage thievery and bartering.
>
> 4. Eliminate all Social Security and Medicare; require each family to
> have a savings account to be responsable for their own medical and
> retirement costs. Each ward and stake take care of the indignent.
>
Have you checked savings account interest lately? Health insurance costs?
Medical costs? I always heard that no Mormon will ever go hungry, but are
they going to be expected to take care of ALLof us in our time of need?
> 5. Employers, because they no longer pay SS or Medicare/Medicaid, and
> there is no income tax, can cut wages by 25% or so with no loss to the
> employees.
An employee's wage can be cut by 25% with no loss? Quick! Tell that to
those WI and OH public employees!
>
> 6. Restructure Welfare to be a training program. 6 month maximum.
> Trained to help meet the needs of a full employment society. Even if the
> job is a janitor. With the economic growth, we will need all kinds of
> people to do all kinds of jobs.
Were you trained in six months? If people could be trained for employment
in six months, there would be no need for 12 years of school. Our current
dilema is that all the jobs that require only six months training are
already filled. Based on your attitude, I think you actually mean to say
that we need certain kinds of people to do certain kinds of jobs.
>
> 7. Restructure the legal system to put career criminals to death based
> on a point system. For other prisoners, put them to work in the fields
> so they work for their keep.
You really seem into putting people in the fields. At what age does one
become a career criminal? 65+?
>
> 8. Eliminate the Department of Education, the Department of Energy, the
> and the IRS.. the recommendations above negate their need. Privatize
> education. Home school or LDS Schools. Kick out problem and unpatriotic
> children, . REMEMBER, not everyone belongs in school. Put non performing
> blacks and other underperformers into working in the fields.
Why not just say "Put underperformers into....."? Do I detect a hidden
agenda here? And who wants their produce grown and handled by
underperformers?
>
> 9. Require all law suites to be reviewed for merit, fine the lawyer who
> brings a "nusance" law suit. Also change tort law so that the loser pays
> all court costs of both the plaintiff and the defendant. Limit awards to
> actual loss; establish a formula to determine loss value.
>
> 10. Eliminate the Federal Reserve, audit their books and prosecute the
> owners, as appropriate, for market manipulation.
Then you'll have created a bunch of candidates for those 60-acre farm plots
in #12.
>
> 11. Make Drug distribution a capital offense. Fine all drug users
> $250,000 for each occurrence.
Which drugs will count? Or is it just anything that can make someone high,
from fresh tar to cough syrup. Otherwise, I like Frank's answer.
>
> 12. Close public housing and restart the program to give each family 60
> acres to farm on, teaching them be self sufficent or die.
And where will those government-issued 60-acre farm plots come from? Uh.
oh. There go our national parks. But I guess we can't afford them anymore
anyway.
oly
> "Roy-in-Roy" <fredc...@uswest.net> wrote in message
>
> news:Xns9E9F7961...@94.75.214.39...
>
>
>
>
>
> > ICSoccer <icsoc...@stormfront.org> wrote in news:Xns9E9F76B87A045jhj@
>
> - Show quoted text -
When the OPs won't leave their posts up more than a few days, why do
you bother to reply???
As for Francklee (not just) Probablysick, he's super fucked-up. It's
just sadd to ask the people in this forum for money.
oly
Jud
> You must have COTTON FIELDS in mind, since the US puts blacks in
> prison 10 times the
> rate of whites.
We need racial parity in our prisons! Seeing as how the prisons are
already overcrowded, I suggest that we release 80% of the black
prisoners...into Frank's neighborhood. That should make everybody
happy. The prisoners will be happy to be out, Frank will be happy that
there is racial parity, and everybody else will be happy that they are
in Frank's neighborhood.
8-)
oly
Francklee probably lives a considerable distance from his POB.
However, he is a ridiculous POS.
When you buy from him, I'm not sure what "fuck-me-up-iate of the
people" he spends the proceeds on, but whatever keeps him quiet for
several weeks.
So don't buy. Drive him antsy. Liberal POS.
oly
gogu
news:ikv08m$lg6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> "Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message Maybe that's
> times the rate of white.
Have you ever wondered why's that?...
And please don't tell me it's in their DNA...
gogu
> because our African-American brothers are committing violent crimes 10
> times the rate of white.
Have you ever wondered why's that?...
Bremick
"oly" <oly...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:a2f20190-b83f-4187...@n18g2000vbq.googlegroups.com...
---------------
Probably for the same reason some people enjoy word and number puzzles,
knowing that the authors won't ever see the results.
Beanie
"gogu" <rumin...@usenet.cnntp.org> wrote in message
news:4d738f5b$1$3703$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...
I've often wondered why it is.
Frank Provasek
> "gogu" <rumin-pr...@usenet.cnntp.org> wrote in message
>
> news:4d738f5b$1$3703$6e1e...@read.cnntp.org...
>
> > "Beanie" <b...@ea.ne>
> >news:ikv08m$lg6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> >> "Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message Maybe that's
> >> because our African-American brothers are committing violent crimes 10
> >> times the rate of white.
>
> > Have you ever wondered why's that?...
> > And please don't tell me it's in their DNA...
>
> I've often wondered why it is.
You can start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_inequality_in_the_American_criminal_justice_system
Beanie
You can start here
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Racial_inequality_in_the_American_criminal_justice_system
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-
A severely flawed article but one in keeping with your PC viewpoint, I suppose.
Bottom line: if you don't want to go to prison, don't commit a crime.
mazorj
"Beanie" <b...@ea.ne> wrote in message news:ikv08m$lg6$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Properly compiled statistics are not inherently racist. It's what you make
of them that matters. "Figures don't lie, but liars figure."
Suppose you're walking and turn down a street. On one sidewalk is a white
guy walking toward you in a hoodie and sweats, on the other is a black or
Latino in the identical clothing. Okay, statistically, all other things
being equal, you're safer going past the white guy. (This being a variation
on the Juan Williams attitude toward Muslims on a plane.) Note that this
says NOTHING about either guy, it's just a probability exercise. And by far
the biggest probability is that nothing will happen either way.
In a similar vein, the racial crime ratios can be useful in targeting funds
for education, job training, etc. However, the rationale is simply "For
whatever reason, these are the problem areas where we would expect the best
use of resources to reduce crime."
But if you try to extend those numbers to infer inherent genetic
differences, it's simply bad science. Correlation is not causation.
-mazorj, Statistically Unique Individual
Patmos
express a
price grows too large. As has been seen with the Italian lirras, the German
marc, and countless other currencies. One whitewash solution to chronic
inflation that several goverments has chosen is dropping zero's from their
currency,
in an overnight secret devaluation. I think this is what Omammy has
planned.
Jaxxdad
they have only enough to be backed 100% by gold or silver. This would cause
a HUGE decrase in prices of everyting and allow people to buy much more with
their dollar's
"Patmos" <pat...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:il1c9h$l5m$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
CV
~~ Inflation, in One Picture ~~
On Capitol Hill, members of Congress are grilling Ben Bernanke, the
Federal Reserve chairman, about his attempts to lift economic growth
by reducing long-term interest rates the Fed s so-called Q.E.2
program, or quantitative easing. Some members of Congress think Mr.
Bernanke is fighting the wrong battle.
They want him to take steps to stamp out inflation, which they
believe is dangerously high or soon will be.
Here is core inflation economists preferred measure of inflation,
because it s more predictive than headline inflation over the last
40 years.
See INFLATION Chart:
http://graphics8.nytimes.com/images/2011/02/09/business/economy/09economix-core/09economix-core-blog480.jpg
Does it look dangerously high?
Or might the slow pace of economic growth and the high level of
unemployment be larger problems?
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/2011/02/09/inflation-in-one-picture/
Tom
patriotic, they care more about worshipping a false messah negro leader
about hugging a tree that saluting the flag! If you
don't care about your country but only yourself you will hire Mexicans and
move
your business offshore and do anything to maximize your own bottom line.
Finally, and probably most importantly, is that we are now a post-Christian
nation. Almost post-White too. There is a moral vacuum right now as most
people
don't identify with a religion, and certainly most people don't attend
church.
When I was a little boy EVERYONE except the morally corrupt went to church
every
Sunday, and all the businesses were closed. We were unified and homogenous
and
strong and God-fearing.
Bremick
"Jaxxdad" <jax...@natvan.com> wrote in message
news:il1cj7$lo3$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
> The goverment need to stop printing money and burn the existing money
> until they have only enough to be backed 100% by gold or silver. This
> would cause a HUGE decrase in prices of everyting and allow people to buy
> much more with their dollar's
Your indifferent spelling doesn't suggest that you have had enough education
yet to be giving out financial analysis.
God's Debris
People have been saying this same nonsense for fifty years. Get over
it.
Beanie
"Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in message
news:il1dup$rej$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Are you kidding? He's probably got more on the ball than anyone in Congress or
Obama's Cabinet!
Jarbidge
Problem is there are these things like the Amero and red and blue dollar
bills floating about...google them...
Bremick
"Beanie" <b...@ea.ne> wrote in message news:il1eot$pvd$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
Hmmmm. Would you be willing to be among the first to turn in your paper
money for burning? When that time comes, members of Congress probably will
be conveniently out of the country doing a bit of fact-finding.
Bremick
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
news:4d743f50$1...@news.x-privat.org...
So what's the problem there? And where are they floating? I had a 1990
Amero IROC-Z. The only red and blue dollar bills I ever saw were back in
the 1950's when I forgot to take those cardboard glasses off after reading a
3-D Three Stooges comic book.
George
Obama is deliberately destroying America. He's a sleeper agent.
Hans Goossen
> ICSoccer <icso...@stormfront.org> wrote in news:Xns9E9F76B87A045jhj@
> 94.75.214.39:
>
>
> 1. Require all green cards to be cancelled and all persons not citizens
> to leave the country over a 30 day exodus.
>
It sounds familiar... Herr Führer... maybe ? Albeit I agree with some of
your points, the sad part is, it was tried in the past and didn't
work.
hans
Frank Galikanokus
>
> ICSoccer <icso...@stormfront.org> wrote in news:Xns9E9F76B87A045jhj@
> 94.75.214.39:
>
> >
> >
> > http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2011/03/03/utah-considers-return-gold-
> > silver-coins/#comment
> >
> >
> >
>
> We need to have the treasury issue "greenbacks" in $100,000, $50,000,
> $10,000, $5,000 and $1,000 sizes to retire the $14 Trillion national
> debt. No more interest, and our debtors would have non-interest bearing
> notes/currency. So, what can they with it except spend it on US
> products... Can you see the economy grow???
>
> In addition, make it illegal for a foreign nationals to own or lease
> property in the US. Not only would our economy grow, but we would have a
> full employment society, negates much of the need for government
> spending.
>
> to leave the country over a 30 day exodus.
>
> oil reserves, building 15 new refineries in the US, Convert Coal to
> synthetic fuel as did Germany in WW II to bring fuel prices down to
> $0.59/gallon.
>
> including property tax, sales tax, all fees and special licenses, all
> income taxes and replace with a single national sales tax of 23%
>
> have a savings account to be responsable for their own medical and
> retirement costs. Each ward and stake take care of the indignent.
>
> there is no income tax, can cut wages by 25% or so with no loss to the
> employees.
>
> Trained to help meet the needs of a full employment society. Even if the
> job is a janitor. With the economic growth, we will need all kinds of
> people to do all kinds of jobs.
>
> on a point system. For other prisoners, put them to work in the fields
> so they work for their keep.
>
> and the IRS.. the recommendations above negate their need. Privatize
> education. Home school or LDS Schools. Kick out problem and unpatriotic
> children, . REMEMBER, not everyone belongs in school. Put non performing
> blacks and other underperformers into working in the fields.
>
> brings a "nusance" law suit. Also change tort law so that the loser pays
> all court costs of both the plaintiff and the defendant. Limit awards to
> actual loss; establish a formula to determine loss value.
>
> 10. Eliminate the Federal Reserve, audit their books and prosecute the
> owners, as appropriate, for market manipulation.
>
> $250,000 for each occurrence.
>
> acres to farm on, teaching them be self sufficent or die.
Ya gotta love the tin hat teabagger. Always good for a laugh!
JAM
Beanie
news:4D750C40...@nospam.net...
> Ya gotta love the tin hat teabagger. Always good for a laugh!
As are you...
John Manning
Do they teach you hatred and bigotry toward non-whites in
your "God-fearing" church?
John Manning
LOL...
Bremick
"Tom" <to...@bonneville.com> wrote in message
news:il1dqn$nsu$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
So you all went to church because you feared God?? And after he gave you
all those commandments telling you what he didn't want you to do, then he
gave you another list of his threats and punishments to go along with the
commandments? But he loves you? No wonder you went to church every
Sunday. You were scared to death not to.
Frank Galikanokus
Yer welcome!
JAM
mazorj
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
news:4d743f50$1...@news.x-privat.org...
Problem is, the Amero already was a DOA speculative concept when conspiracy
theory types seized on it.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_American_currency_union
Except for the obvious "weak sister" beneficiaries of such a windfall like
Mexico, the numerous drawbacks of a North American currency are so bad that
no one in a position to implement it is giving it even half-serious
consideration.
Googling red blue dollars takes you all over the map on just the first page,
from numismatics to commodity speculators, with no obvious ties to any
planned dollar devaluation. Can you be a little more specific on tying that
term to some specific conspiracy theory plan to devalue the currency?
mazorj
Eh, they'll be hiding out en masse in motels in Canada and Mexico to prevent
a quorum from being present.
mazorj
> express a
> price grows too large. As has been seen with the Italian lirras, the
> German
> marc, and countless other currencies. One whitewash solution to chronic
> inflation that several goverments has chosen is dropping zero's from
> their currency, in an overnight secret devaluation.
True enough.
> I think this is what Omammy has planned.
Amazing. In one sentence you went from citing rational, accurate history
(albeit with misspelled currencies) to a short but delusional rant.
It's one thing to discuss the theoretical possibility of an event. It's
quite another to accuse someone of "planning" it.
Is there any reprehensible act or plan left that Obama-haters haven't yet
tried to tag him with?
Oh, wait, there's the SeKriT Ethnic Klenzing Plan to sterilize all new-born
white children while they're in gubmint facilities supposedly for mandatory
genetic testing. Y'all forgot that one.
Jarbidge
Yeah, I think so, the last I read there was an alleged plan to have new
currency issued with red and blue notes.
Only the blue one could be used as tender IN the US, and only the red
ones could be spent abroad.
Like most of these things I think it ran its course on the conspiracy
boards.
Bremick
"Roy-in-Roy" <fred...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9EA1C158...@94.75.214.39...
> "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in
> news:il3ait$an2$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
> Murder has been around since the beginning of mankind. Read about Cain
> and Abel in the Bible in the book of Genesis. Murder of innocent human
> life, whether in the womb or outside the womb, by most societies was
> considered an evil act. Most societies always believed in an afterlife,
> i.e., life after death. and therefore outlawed evil acts such as murder
> of an innocent human life, because murder of an innocent human could
> cause one to spend eternity in Hell--and eternity is a long time. So
> while abortion has been found in all societies, the legalization of the
> murder of the human life in the mother's womb was only made legal by
> atheists because there is no fear of Hell or the loss of Heaven by them
> because they don't think either afterlife place exists. Of course, their
> opinion that they don't exist has zero bearing on Heaven or Hell's
> actual existence--each exists or doesn't exist regardless of their
> belief.
>
What does your abortion rant have to do with the tone of this important
discussion? Or is that the only talking point you've memorized? Just hadta
get it in, I guess.
mazorj
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
To be fair, it might actually have been discussed at one time among law
enforcement as a way to reduce international money laundering. If so, that
would make it a classic case of a small and basically meaningless fact
getting hijacked and inflated into a conspiracy theory.
I don't think it would be very effective as part of a dollar devaluation,
though.
First, most dollars held abroad are in the form of T-bills, other bonds, and
bank account holdings, not currency bills. Second, when you pull the plug
on "old dollars" there will be a redemption deadline after which the old
currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on, be it red or blue or
traditional green. (Well, except for the eBay and cable TV hucksters. "A
treasured part of American history! Highly prized by collectors! No longer
being made!") At the switch-over date there will be a complete line of
totally new Washingtons and Jacksons and Benjamins, so there's no usefulness
in trying to repurpose putative stocks of red or blue versions of old
dollars as part of some nefarious scheme.
My Bottom Line: I wouldn't bet the farm that a dollar devaluation is
impossible. But my gut feeling is that it is fairly unlikely for the
foreseeable future, and no one is "planning" a devaluation as part of some
secret agenda for America. If it happens, it will be as a late-arriving
decision undertaken as an unavoidable act of desperation.
Beanie
mazorj
"Beanie" <b...@ea.ne> wrote in message news:il5ft4$48h$1...@speranza.aioe.org...
>I blame all this on that son of a bitch Nixon!
Aw, his money laundering was small-time, just a few bags and safes full of
secret cash caches.
Or did you have something else in mind?
mazorj
"Roy-in-Roy" <fred...@uswest.net> wrote in message
news:Xns9EA1C158...@94.75.214.39...
> "Bremick" <rem...@cox.net> wrote in
> news:il3ait$an2$1...@news.eternal-september.org:
>
>>
> Murder has been around since the beginning of mankind. Read about Cain
> and Abel in the Bible in the book of Genesis. Murder of innocent human
> life, whether in the womb or outside the womb, by most societies was
> considered an evil act. Most societies always believed in an afterlife,
> i.e., life after death. and therefore outlawed evil acts such as murder
> of an innocent human life, because murder of an innocent human could
> cause one to spend eternity in Hell--and eternity is a long time. So
> while abortion has been found in all societies, the legalization of the
> murder of the human life in the mother's womb was only made legal by
> atheists because there is no fear of Hell or the loss of Heaven by them
> because they don't think either afterlife place exists. Of course, their
> opinion that they don't exist has zero bearing on Heaven or Hell's
> actual existence--each exists or doesn't exist regardless of their belief.
The current practice of abortion wasn't foisted on us by atheists. While
there is some truth to the statement "Atheists tend not to be as morally
conflicted by abortion as some Christians" the fact is that the current uses
of abortion started because of medical reasons. The extreme example of
course is the "we can save the mother or we can save the fetus" situation,
but there are many other scenarios where abortion has been held to be
justifiable on medical and even moral grounds.
Given the relative minority of atheism in America, most of the doctors and
health experts who advocated safe abortions for medical reasons almost
certainly were not atheists. They nevertheless were able to balance the
moral issues and recognize situations where the termination of a pregnancy
is justifiable even under their religious beliefs.
Admittedly the argument takes on another dimension when an abortion is for
other than medical reasons. These cases have to be analyzed in their own
contexts. But your holier-than-thou "we're all victims of the Godless
atheists" abortion shtick doesn't reflect the facts or the history.
mazorj
"Straw Man" <st...@man.com> wrote in message
news:6ejbn69thrf1jrvo1...@4ax.com...
> the secret FEMA camp built to contain him.
> :)
My very own, personal, secret FEMA camp? Yikes! Well, if staying at his
own "undisclosed location" was good enough for a vice president, it's good
enough for me.
Jarbidge
Valid observation.
> I don't think it would be very effective as part of a dollar
> devaluation, though.
>
> First, most dollars held abroad are in the form of T-bills, other bonds,
> and bank account holdings, not currency bills. Second, when you pull
> the plug on "old dollars" there will be a redemption deadline after
> which the old currency isn't worth the paper it's printed on, be it red
> or blue or traditional green. (Well, except for the eBay and cable TV
> hucksters. "A treasured part of American history! Highly prized by
> collectors! No longer being made!") At the switch-over date there will
> be a complete line of totally new Washingtons and Jacksons and
> Benjamins, so there's no usefulness in trying to repurpose putative
> stocks of red or blue versions of old dollars as part of some nefarious
> scheme.
>
> My Bottom Line: I wouldn't bet the farm that a dollar devaluation is
> impossible. But my gut feeling is that it is fairly unlikely for the
> foreseeable future, and no one is "planning" a devaluation as part of
> some secret agenda for America. If it happens, it will be as a
> late-arriving decision undertaken as an unavoidable act of desperation.
I'm not making odds either way, but with debt approaching 100% of GDP
things are not all that rosy.
Jarbidge
> I blame all this on that son of a bitch Nixon!
Roger that, a fool's fool.
Jarbidge
Um...gold standard...hello?
http://economics.about.com/cs/money/a/gold_standard.htm
"The Bretton Woods system ended on August 15, 1971, when President
Richard Nixon ended trading of gold at the fixed price of $35/ounce. At
that point for the first time in history, formal links between the major
world currencies and real commodities were severed". The gold standard
has not been used in any major economy since that time.
Jarbidge
> Given the relative minority of atheism in America, most of the doctors
> and health experts who advocated safe abortions for medical reasons
> almost certainly were not atheists.
Prove that.
http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/abortion.html
Doctors considered midwives, who attended births and performed abortions
as part of their regular practice, a threat to their own economic and
social power. The medical establishment actively took up the antiabortion
cause in the second half of the 19th century as part of its effort to
eliminate midwives.
Finally, with the declining birth rate among whites in the late 1800s,
the U.S. government and the eugenics movement warned against the danger
of ``race suicide'' and urged white, native-born women to reproduce.
Budding industrial capitalism relied on women to be unpaid household
workers, low-paid menial workers, reproducers, and socializers of the
next generation of workers. Without legal abortion, women found it more
difficult to resist the limitations of these roles.
Beanie
"mazorj" <maz...@verizon.net> wrote in message
news:il5k5h$m6t$1...@news.eternal-september.org...
Nah, I just like to blame everything on that son of a bitch Nixon.
Beanie
> Admittedly the argument takes on another dimension when an abortion is for
> other than medical reasons. These cases have to be analyzed in their own
> contexts. But your holier-than-thou "we're all victims of the Godless
> atheists" abortion shtick doesn't reflect the facts or the history.
Abortion is now used as a birth control method. Rarely is the life of the mother
in danger.
I find abortion morally unsupportable in all but extreme cases and even then I
am conflicted.
mazorj
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
Doh! Thanks. Having lived through Nixon's administration and downfalls
when I was young and idealistic and penniless, the abolishment of fixed gold
pricing hardly registered on my radar back then. Vietnam War, bombing
Cambodia, "I am not a crook," Watergate, and "last helicopter out of 1600
Pennsylvania Avenue" would be my associative keywords for him.
Jarbidge
Pile on!
Jarbidge
Good.
mazorj
mazorj
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
> On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:18:41 -0500, mazorj wrote:
>
>> Given the relative minority of atheism in America, most of the doctors
>> and health experts who advocated safe abortions for medical reasons
>> almost certainly were not atheists.
>
> Prove that.
>
> http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/abortion.html
An excellent link to an analysis of the abortion issue. Thanks. Even
though I grew up steeped in the values of the then-unfolding phenomenon of
feminism, I learned a few things about the earliest history of the abortion
issue.
However, it all was in the context of politics and power and social
pressures, as viewed through the lens of the strongest expressions of
feminism. No problem with that but it means that my main point - that
atheism is not reponsible for abortions nor are all Christians opposed to
any form of abortion - was scarcely addressed, *except* once to confirm my
opinion:
"In the 1980s, rapidly growing fundamentalist Christian groups, which
overlap with the New Right and ``right- to-life'' organizations, were among
the most visible boosters of the antiabortion movement. These antiabortion
groups talk as if all truly religious and moral people disapprove of
abortion. This is not true now and never has been."
So once again, thanks for the link.
I see now that I was not clear on the time frame I was referring to. I was
focusing on the time when the medical community started to accept that there
were valid medical reasons for abortions. I thought that would have been in
the early to mid-20th Century but your link showed I was about 100 years
late.
Nevertheless, I still stand by my opinion that the "medical community," be
it M.D. physicians or nurses or midwives or public health analysts, was
predominantly composed of religious believers, not atheists, when the
medical rationales for abortion came into widepread acceptance. There just
weren't that many atheists around, so an awful lot of the supporters had to
be of religious faith. The fact that various factions have gone back and
forth on medical abortion, depending on their specific self-interests at
stake, makes for some genuinely interesting history but doesn't affect my
take on the role of religion (or lack thereof).
Jarbidge
> "Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
> news:4d766166$1...@news.x-privat.org...
>> On Tue, 08 Mar 2011 11:18:41 -0500, mazorj wrote:
>>
>>> Given the relative minority of atheism in America, most of the doctors
>>> and health experts who advocated safe abortions for medical reasons
>>> almost certainly were not atheists.
>>
>> Prove that.
>>
>> http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/abortion.html
>
> An excellent link to an analysis of the abortion issue. Thanks. Even
> though I grew up steeped in the values of the then-unfolding phenomenon
> of feminism, I learned a few things about the earliest history of the
> abortion issue.
I'm glad you found it useful.
> However, it all was in the context of politics and power and social
> pressures, as viewed through the lens of the strongest expressions of
> feminism. No problem with that but it means that my main point - that
> atheism is not reponsible for abortions nor are all Christians opposed
> to any form of abortion - was scarcely addressed, *except* once to
> confirm my opinion:
>
> "In the 1980s, rapidly growing fundamentalist Christian groups, which
> overlap with the New Right and ``right- to-life'' organizations, were
> among the most visible boosters of the antiabortion movement. These
> antiabortion groups talk as if all truly religious and moral people
> disapprove of abortion. This is not true now and never has been."
>
> So once again, thanks for the link.
Unfortunately there really is no hard statistic to represent the actual
beliefs or lack thereof in the medical community at the time.
> I see now that I was not clear on the time frame I was referring to. I
> was focusing on the time when the medical community started to accept
> that there were valid medical reasons for abortions. I thought that
> would have been in the early to mid-20th Century but your link showed I
> was about 100 years late.
That was a bit of a shocker to me as well.
> Nevertheless, I still stand by my opinion that the "medical community,"
> be it M.D. physicians or nurses or midwives or public health analysts,
> was predominantly composed of religious believers, not atheists, when
> the medical rationales for abortion came into widepread acceptance.
I don't know that can be proved.
In those days many people claimed a religion, even if not actively
practicing or believing in it as a matter of fitting in.
> There just weren't that many atheists around, so an awful lot of the
> supporters had to be of religious faith. The fact that various factions
> have gone back and forth on medical abortion, depending on their
> specific self-interests at stake, makes for some genuinely interesting
> history but doesn't affect my take on the role of religion (or lack
> thereof).
The mere declaration of faith is not the same as the practice thereof.
I'm going to place this one in the same category as bigotry.
Many people silently endorsed racial separation, while at the same time
internally opposing it.
That why when Dr. King came along the movement grew so swiftly - he gave
folks license to air their true feelings.
I'm going to draw a parallel here to abortion, the pill, and the decline
of religion in America as concomitant, linked, and indicative of a turn
away from traditional faith.
What say you?
Jarbidge
Pile some on him from me as well, a true SOB.
mazorj
"Jarbidge" <c...@neva.invalid> wrote in message
Which is why I framed it as a "common sense" assertion, with all the
weaknesses thereof. It ain't much but it's all we have to go on.
>> I see now that I was not clear on the time frame I was referring to. I
>> was focusing on the time when the medical community started to accept
>> that there were valid medical reasons for abortions. I thought that
>> would have been in the early to mid-20th Century but your link showed I
>> was about 100 years late.
>
> That was a bit of a shocker to me as well.
>
>> Nevertheless, I still stand by my opinion that the "medical community,"
>> be it M.D. physicians or nurses or midwives or public health analysts,
>> was predominantly composed of religious believers, not atheists, when
>> the medical rationales for abortion came into widepread acceptance.
>
> I don't know that can be proved.
Nope, it can't.
> In those days many people claimed a religion, even if not actively
> practicing or believing in it as a matter of fitting in.
Well, ditto for today, too, so it's complicated no matter which way you
slice and dice it.
Further complicating matters, the late 18th and early 19th Centuries (when
abortion started to evolve into a health issue)had a great many great
thinkers and leaders who were Deists. How do you fit Deism into any
analysis of religious beliefs, and are Deist moral values based in faith or
a humanist interpretation of "natural law"?
Nevertheless, a Deist by definition is not an atheist. (Ditto for
agnostics, another important grouping.) And even a "Christmas and Easter
only" churchgoer probably has had his/her basic beliefs determined by
exposure to many aspects of religous dogma. Most of the people who attend
services only to avoid social censure probably still believe that killing
and lying and theft are wrong, and those opinions would likely have been
rooted in earlier exposure to a now-abandoned religious dogma. So even for
the "Christian in name only" types, I think there's a good common sense
argument that the doctors et al. who embraced medical abortion as
justifiable were not dyed-in-the-wool atheists. They may have been
practicing or non-practicing or just going through the motions but my sense
(again, no data to prove it) is that for the vast majority, if you had asked
them "Are you an atheist?" they could have truthfully answered No.
>> There just weren't that many atheists around, so an awful lot of the
>> supporters had to be of religious faith. The fact that various factions
>> have gone back and forth on medical abortion, depending on their
>> specific self-interests at stake, makes for some genuinely interesting
>> history but doesn't affect my take on the role of religion (or lack
>> thereof).
>
> The mere declaration of faith is not the same as the practice thereof.
>
> I'm going to place this one in the same category as bigotry.
>
> Many people silently endorsed racial separation, while at the same time
> internally opposing it.
>
> That why when Dr. King came along the movement grew so swiftly - he gave
> folks license to air their true feelings.
Said arguments fall under the same heading as mine - "It's common sense to
me." Fair enough. But I do see one principal difference. For the
individual who internally disagreed with segregation but did not speak out
publicly against it until MLK gave them the encouragement to do so, all they
had to do was... nothing. Just STFU and turn the blind eye. But when a
doctor or midwife accepts the concept of medical abortion despite any
internal religious reservations, those reservations had to be overcome and
at least partially rejected as invalid, because it was doctors and/or
midwives who at various times not only were championing medical abortions,
they were called upon to do most of the legal abortions. Acts of bigotry
can be purely passive. Not so for acts of abortion.
> I'm going to draw a parallel here to abortion, the pill, and the decline
> of religion in America as concomitant, linked, and indicative of a turn
> away from traditional faith.
>
> What say you?
There is no doubt whatsoever that links can be made. If anything, your list
is way too short. My gut tells me that other negative trends in crime, teen
pregnancy, pornography, the weakening of family values, disrespect for law
and government, and many other social ills have been exacerbated by (though
*not* caused by) a weakening of traditional religious beliefs. Some effects
are circular as well. Weakened family cohesion causes weakened religious
faith which causes further weakening of family cohesion, etc.
To be clear here, no amount of religious revival can cure the underlying
sociological causes of these trends; and religious values also have been
used to justify terrible evils such as oppressive social orderings (serfdom
and the divine right of kings, reduced civil and economic rights for those
of the "wrong" religious persuasions, the Untouchables caste) all the way to
the killing of infidels. And even in the home, some dogmas are
psychologically harmful, such as saying that drinking a beer or dancing is a
"sin". But it's clear that religious values have acted and still act to
dampen the spread and impact of some unwanted negative trends.
Anyway, in answer to your question, the devil is in the details. Is this
trend a chicken or an egg? Is that development a cause or an effect? (Most
likely it is both chicken/egg or cause/effect in a chain of developments.)
The real difficulty is not in identifying linkages, it's in sorting mere
correlation from cause-and-effect, assessing the importance of their
respective roles, and then issuing moral/legal/political imperatives based
on whatever conclusions we may draw from whatever we may manage to discern
in this vast sociological swamp.
...
Jarbidge
Interesting Constitutional dilemma at he very least...
> Nevertheless, a Deist by definition is not an atheist. (Ditto for
> agnostics, another important grouping.) And even a "Christmas and
> Easter only" churchgoer probably has had his/her basic beliefs
> determined by exposure to many aspects of religous dogma. Most of the
> people who attend services only to avoid social censure probably still
> believe that killing and lying and theft are wrong, and those opinions
> would likely have been rooted in earlier exposure to a now-abandoned
> religious dogma. So even for the "Christian in name only" types, I
> think there's a good common sense argument that the doctors et al. who
> embraced medical abortion as justifiable were not dyed-in-the-wool
> atheists. They may have been practicing or non-practicing or just going
> through the motions but my sense (again, no data to prove it) is that
> for the vast majority, if you had asked them "Are you an atheist?" they
> could have truthfully answered No.
Yet we also have the eugenics movement to contend with, and it was
strongly present across our universities well into the early 1930s.
>>> There just weren't that many atheists around, so an awful lot of the
>>> supporters had to be of religious faith. The fact that various
>>> factions have gone back and forth on medical abortion, depending on
>>> their specific self-interests at stake, makes for some genuinely
>>> interesting history but doesn't affect my take on the role of religion
>>> (or lack thereof).
>>
>> The mere declaration of faith is not the same as the practice thereof.
>>
>> I'm going to place this one in the same category as bigotry.
>>
>> Many people silently endorsed racial separation, while at the same time
>> internally opposing it.
>>
>> That why when Dr. King came along the movement grew so swiftly - he
>> gave folks license to air their true feelings.
>
> Said arguments fall under the same heading as mine - "It's common sense
> to me." Fair enough. But I do see one principal difference. For the
> individual who internally disagreed with segregation but did not speak
> out publicly against it until MLK gave them the encouragement to do so,
> all they had to do was... nothing. Just STFU and turn the blind eye.
> But when a doctor or midwife accepts the concept of medical abortion
> despite any internal religious reservations, those reservations had to
> be overcome and at least partially rejected as invalid, because it was
> doctors and/or midwives who at various times not only were championing
> medical abortions, they were called upon to do most of the legal
> abortions. Acts of bigotry can be purely passive. Not so for acts of
> abortion.
That certainly is a fair distinction.
>> I'm going to draw a parallel here to abortion, the pill, and the
>> decline of religion in America as concomitant, linked, and indicative
>> of a turn away from traditional faith.
>>
>> What say you?
>
> There is no doubt whatsoever that links can be made. If anything, your
> list is way too short. My gut tells me that other negative trends in
> crime, teen pregnancy, pornography, the weakening of family values,
> disrespect for law and government, and many other social ills have been
> exacerbated by (though *not* caused by) a weakening of traditional
> religious beliefs. Some effects are circular as well. Weakened family
> cohesion causes weakened religious faith which causes further weakening
> of family cohesion, etc.
>
> To be clear here, no amount of religious revival can cure the underlying
> sociological causes of these trends; and religious values also have been
> used to justify terrible evils such as oppressive social orderings
> (serfdom and the divine right of kings, reduced civil and economic
> rights for those of the "wrong" religious persuasions, the Untouchables
> caste) all the way to the killing of infidels. And even in the home,
> some dogmas are psychologically harmful, such as saying that drinking a
> beer or dancing is a "sin". But it's clear that religious values have
> acted and still act to dampen the spread and impact of some unwanted
> negative trends.
Famous libertarian atheist Ayn Rand was appalled (in the 1960 no less!)
by the moral decay and way our society had cast aside God and religion,
recognizing both were key to retaining our sense of purpose.
> Anyway, in answer to your question, the devil is in the details. Is
> this trend a chicken or an egg? Is that development a cause or an
> effect? (Most likely it is both chicken/egg or cause/effect in a chain
> of developments.) The real difficulty is not in identifying linkages,
> it's in sorting mere correlation from cause-and-effect, assessing the
> importance of their respective roles, and then issuing
> moral/legal/political imperatives based on whatever conclusions we may
> draw from whatever we may manage to discern in this vast sociological
> swamp.
> ...
Iow, a morass of conflicting but contributory constants. I call them
human nature.
We have yet to solve it, but endeavor to improve on it.
Jarbidge
> I thought the plan was to herd all the tea baggers into the FEMA
Why do you libs always demean homosexuals in your insults?
Jarbidge
> Your confused but don't worry.
You are a hypocrite with no worries.
> They will sort your head out when you get to the FEMA camp.
Blah, blah, blah...
Gary
Address.invalid> wrote:
>
> Obama is deliberately destroying America. He's a sleeper agent.-
Stop watching Fox News.
Stormin Mormon
the Obama party line?
Me, I'm horrified all the Anti-American behaviour the Obama
administration is performing. Socialized medicine, and the
out of control spending, and the take over of companies,
and, and, and, and.......
--
Christopher A. Young
Learn more about Jesus
www.lds.org
.
"Gary" <garydor...@sbcglobal.net> wrote in message
news:17f1e466-d1e4-4ad4...@s9g2000yqm.googlegroups.com...
Bluesfan2U
> You'd rather watch the CNN (Clinton Network News) and drink
> the Obama party line?
>
> Me, I'm horrified all the Anti-American behaviour the Obama
> administration is performing. Socialized medicine, and the
> out of control spending, and the take over of companies,
> and, and, and, and.......
>
Saving the economy, restoring great American industries (and their jobs)
and enabling the spread of democracy, and making government actually
useful in a constructive sort of way...
You have some strange ideas about what is American behavior.
Beanie
"Bluesfan2U" <blues...@fun.ogr> wrote in message
news:3Pmdnd_c1ImpmhfQ...@giganews.com...
> Stormin Mormon wrote:
>> You'd rather watch the CNN (Clinton Network News) and drink the Obama party
>> line?
>>
>> Me, I'm horrified all the Anti-American behaviour the Obama administration is
>> performing. Socialized medicine, and the out of control spending, and the
>> take over of companies, and, and, and, and.......
>>
>
>
> Saving the economy, restoring great American industries (and their jobs) and
> enabling the spread of democracy, and making government actually useful in a
> constructive sort of way...
Too bad Obama hasn't done any of that.
The man was and remains an empty suit.
Bluesfan2U
Keep thinking that. We can use that kind of miscalculation for 2012.
som...@some.domain
>You'd rather watch the CNN (Clinton Network News) and drink
>the Obama party line?
>
>Me, I'm horrified all the Anti-American behaviour the Obama
>administration is performing. Socialized medicine, and the
>out of control spending, and the take over of companies,
>and, and, and, and.......
>
FProy2222
<som...@some.domain> wrote in message
news:xpuip.708411$Ua4.5...@en-nntp-09.dc1.easynews.com...
Glenn Beck is very fair to the LDS Church, and we hope he will get his own
network