ACG issues a press release
K6AZ
Obviously I can't comment on it, but here it is for your
entertainment:
http://www.asa-accugrade.com/press_release.php
--
K6AZ WEB PAGES
John Mason
their ducks in a row. To bad that it had to go this far, but sounds like
he is very serious about this, and I'm sure he has lot's of documented
emails and such to back up his lawsuit. Don't know the people
personally, and have never done business with them either. But I have
read many posts in the NG about them and this situation, whether they be
true or false, I don't know.
Good luck to all those that have their names on the list, because it
looks like it's time, that they better be able to prove anything, and
everything they ever stated, or supposedly stated. I wonder if this will
make COURT TV, like the OJ trial did? Was hoping some day to meet some
of the people in this NG, lie I have over the years in another NG I
participate... recreational gold mining. But it looks like now, I will
be able, maybe, to see them all on television.
Good luck, guys and gals. "It's SHOW TIME."
John
--
Your Friend in Gold Mining...............John
Artificial Intelligence is No Match for Natural Stupidity
Coin Saver
>Obviously I can't comment on it, but here it is for your entertainment:>
>http://www.asa-accugrade.com/press_release.php>
My computer can't "read" the .php type file. I don't suppose you could send
me a readable copy, or guide me to one that's not a .php type file?
8-]
Coin Saver
Ira Stein
<< My computer can't "read" the .php type file. I don't suppose you could
send
me a readable copy, or guide me to one that's not a .php type file?
8-] >>
That's the web address! Just click on the link.
http://www.asa-accugrade.com/index.php
Ira Stein
gogu
news:3l6870p3alu2k8rli...@4ax.com...
>
> Obviously I can't comment on it, but here it is for your
> entertainment:
You maybe can't, but I can comment on it ;-)
So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you or
your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I said:
"what a crook"!
Now, pleeeease sue me :-)
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
Little Red Devil
>>Obviously I can't comment on it, but here it is for your entertainment:>
>>http://www.asa-accugrade.com/press_release.php>
>
>My computer can't "read" the .php type file. I don't suppose you could send
>me a readable copy, or guide me to one that's not a .php type file?
Press Release
On Monday March 18, 2004 a complaint was filed by ASA-Accugrade, Inc., a Florida Corp., and Diane & Alan Hager in the 18th Circuit Court of Seminole County,
Florida for Conspiracy, Tortious Interference and Defamation. This lawsuit was filed against 46 individuals nationwide with others being added. Case No.
04-CA-692-16-W (536K PDF).
After serious consideration, research and investigation Diane and Alan Hager determined that an orchestrated conspiracy was being perpetrated against
ASA-Accugrade, Inc., and each of the Hagers individually via the Internet (worldwide web) thru Newsgroups called Rec. Collecting. Coins (RC) (google.com,
groups) and Collectors Universe (pcgs.com Message Boards).
These individuals willfully plotted, schemed and executed a plan to destroy ACG’s reputation, credibility and put the company and the Hager’s out of business
for fear of competition.
These individuals formed a Boycott, Web-Sites, made telephone calls, wrote letters, sent e-mails and published articles. They coerced and threatened dealers,
publications, Auction companies, organizations and individuals into NOT using ASA Accugrade’s service, into NOT buying or selling ACG coins, into NOT doing
business with ASA Accugrade, Inc. They intimidated and interfered with people bidding on e-Bay auctions on any ACG coin. They harassed any dealer who bought or
sold ACG coins on e-Bay.
The Defendants named in this suit spread rumors, lies, innuendos, mis-truths, half truths and misrepresentations without thought or care for the actual truth.
None of these Defendants were ever ASA Accugrade, Inc. customers. Only one of them has ever submitted coins to ASA Accugrade, Inc. None of these defendants ever
bought or sold ACG coins (except to denigrate the product). Some of these individuals have admitted to having never even seen an ACG coin except on an e-Bay
scan. Out of the forty (46) Defendants named, the Plaintiffs have only met ten (10) in the past twenty years of business. These people conspired as a group for
financial gain and carried out a plan, with mob mentality, to defame and destroy the Plaintiffs and have succeeded in causing severe monetary losses and grave
damage to the reputations of ASA Accugrade, Inc. and the Hagers.
ASA Accugrade, Inc., Alan Hager and Diane Hager are expecting full vindication and will not rest until that has been accomplished. The Plaintiffs expect full
recompense for earnings lost, pro-rated over the next ten years for losses and damages in the millions of dollars. Unlike the Defendants in this case, the
Plaintiffs will rely on the truth, documentation and the Law to prove their position. ASA Accugrade, Inc. and the Hagers have hired the Law Firm of Bogin, Munns
& Munns of Orlando, Florida. Any further inquiries can be directed to Daniel Brodersen, Esquire at (407) 578-1334, 2601 Technology Drive, Orlando, FL 32804.
03/31-04
MarkR
news:3l6870p3alu2k8rli...@4ax.com...
Well all I'm going to say is that I wish all 46 of you luck and hope that
everything comes out in your favor in the end. I've never bought any coins
from ASA-Accugrade/ACG or attempted to, but I'm not too sure I would because
they don't accurately grade coins. If they graded by the standards of PCGS,
NGC, or ANACS then maybe I'd buy from them. I'm sorry to see that this
matter has come to this junction, but again I hope that all of this can be
worked out and that everyone can go on with their lives as normal very soon.
Regards,
Mark
Dale Hallmark
news:3l6870p3alu2k8rli...@4ax.com...
>
> entertainment:
>
> http://www.asa-accugrade.com/press_release.php
I would suspect that the Civil Liberties people could get interested in this
one real fast
since it involves mostly discussion on a Usegroup and if they did get behind
it then............
Well, not a group I would want opposite me.
Dale
saved92
say maybe, some in this group talked about their grading habits, but to say
people here "formed a Boycott, Web-Sites, made telephone calls, wrote
letters, sent e-mails and published articles. They coerced and threatened
rumors, lies, innuendos, mis-truths, half truths and misrepresentations
having that much time on their hands.
And if this is a discussion group......and if we have the right to "Freedom
of Speech".....then WHERE IS THE CRIME?
David
Steve Grant
news:107937e...@corp.supernews.com...
This popular misconception of the First Amendment never seems to die. You
do /not/ have the right to say whatever you want, wherever you want, about
whomever you want. You /never did/.
Coin Saver
>>>Coin Saver writes:
>>> My computer can't "read" the .php type file. I don't suppose you could
send me a readable copy, or guide me to one that's not a .php type file?>>>
>That's the web address! Just click on the link.
http://www.asa-accugrade.com/index.php>
and then????????
it says: "Download here", I download, then go to open and I get unintelligible
babble gobbledygoop. Here's a quote:
" # íķ>V }(a ""æį Ä ķ0T q ö8B Ö ―ęęč 4 7, â úh Äęąî #ó GDxÅĸ #p 8å 4ée
ÅäP ,2 č 7qä í 9 , A âņP a t, ACōe SŠSó ö8H$äAĨ r mî
: $":8ę ï . @ü"
what does that say?
8-???
Coin Saver
K6AZ
>what does that say?
I believe a little red devil posted the entire "release" earlier.
Jorg Lueke
Well that's what the case will show right? I have no clue about any of
the legality and I won't pretend to. Is it wrong to call someone a
"crook" or a "thief"? Has ACG's business suffered? If so was it because
of a delibirate conspiracy? Was it because of the complaint DH brought
herself at the ANA?
With lawyers and a jury one never knows. You may see something and think
it's silly and before you turn aroud a jury hands someone a settlement.
(The coffee was too hot, the burger was to greasy, I didn't know smoking
was bad etc.) I certainly wish everyone the best and certainly hope that
justice is done swiftly.
Bob Peterson
You are entitled to discuss anything you want, voice your opinions all you
want as well. However this is america and anyone can be sued for anything.
In this case you have a situation where people purporting to have expertise
in the area of coin grading claiming AGC was misgrading coins and graded
counterfeit coins, and at least implied this was a common practice. if ACG
can show that these statements are false and malacious, and harmed their
business they have a good case for recovering damages (or at least winning
the lawsuit).
I hope each person named has the sense to discuss this with his/her own
personal attorney and is not led to believe that the big names in the suit
will do anything to protect the little guys also named in the suit. the
first rule of civil law is that its every man for himself.
expect little to happen for some time (months, maybe years) than expect some
settlements.
>
> David
>
>
J. Craton
>>From: iras4
>
>
>>>>Coin Saver writes:
>>>>My computer can't "read" the .php type file. I don't suppose you could
>
> send me a readable copy, or guide me to one that's not a .php type file?>>>
>
>>That's the web address! Just click on the link.
>
> http://www.asa-accugrade.com/index.php>
>
> and then????????
> it says: "Download here", I download, then go to open and I get unintelligible
> babble gobbledygoop. Here's a quote:
>
> " # í¶>V }(a ""æç Ä ¶0T q ö8B Ö ½êêè 4 7, â úh Äê±î #ó GDxÅÿ #p 8å 4ée
> ÅäP ,2 è 7qä í 9 , A âñP a t, ACòe SªSó ö8H$äA¥ r mî
> : $":8ê ï . @ü"
>
> what does that say?
>
> 8-???
> Coin Saver
Go download a free copy of acrobat reader ........
--
Jason Craton ---- CONECA N-3407 --- WINS #5
---------------------------
Interested in error coins?
http://www.error-coins.com - A work in progress (lack of progress really).
Nick is a DICK!
Reid is a troglodyte!
Cliff
Just a note that popped up in my mind. AH Collectibles and the
various renditions of them blocked everyone in RCC from being able to
bid on their ebay auctions. That would have cost them money since
they still had some coins that were buyable. Further, they refused to
respond to email asking why I was blocked from their auctions.
They themselves would then be responsible for a loss of revenue.
That is a poor business practice in my opinion.
Cliff
Alan & Erin Williams
I have also attempted to bid on auctions for ACG coins. My bid was also
rejected.
Alan
'their loss'
John Carney
> I download, then go to open and I get unintelligible
> babble gobbledygoop.
Sounds right to me.
--
John
Visit the RCCers favorite coins web page
http://mysite.verizon.net/jcarney44/coins/rccers.html
Wheeler
>
> Cliff wrote:
> >
> > Jorg Lueke <jluek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> >
> > >On Wed, 7 Apr 2004 18:21:14 -0500, saved92 <sav...@cableone.net> wrote:
<SNIP>
> > Just a note that popped up in my mind. AH Collectibles and the
> > various renditions of them blocked everyone in RCC from being able to
> > bid on their ebay auctions. That would have cost them money since
> > they still had some coins that were buyable. Further, they refused to
> > respond to email asking why I was blocked from their auctions.
> > They themselves would then be responsible for a loss of revenue.
> > That is a poor business practice in my opinion.
> > Cliff
>
> I have also attempted to bid on auctions for ACG coins. My bid was also
> rejected.
>
> Alan
> 'their loss'
You also? I tried to bid on their auctions, for ACG coins and bid
was rejected, and they would not respond to my emails either... Who
was that dealer that also blocked everyone that posted on this
newsgroup? I tried to bid on some ACG coins and received a note
from him saying that he was "told" not to let anyone that posted on
here bid on his auctions? Anyone remember who that was?
Wheeler ( Rejected from 2 different dealers )
henry mensch
--
# henry mensch / san francisco, california
#
henry mensch
->And if this is a discussion group......and if we have the right to "Freedom
->of Speech".....then WHERE IS THE CRIME?
"Freedom of Speech" is, in itself, not a license to say whatever ...
whenever.
The truth, however, is usually a good defense.
Ankaaz
"You maybe can't, but I can comment on it ;-)
So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you or
your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I said:
'what a crook'!
Now, pleeeease sue me :-)"
LOL!!!
Anka <---- why don't you tell him how you really feel?
CoinKollector
gogu wrote:
> ? "K6AZ" <nos...@nospam.nospam> ?????? ??? ??????
> news:3l6870p3alu2k8rli...@4ax.com...
>
>>Obviously I can't comment on it, but here it is for your
>>entertainment:
>
>
>
> You maybe can't, but I can comment on it ;-)
> So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
> You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
> I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you or
> your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I said:
> "what a crook"!
> Now, pleeeease sue me :-)
>
>
Pretty brave posting from Greece.
saved92
"henry mensch" wrote in message > saved92 <sav...@cableone.net> wrote:
>And if this is a discussion group......and if we have the right to "Freedom
"Freedom of Speech" is, in itself, not a license to say whatever ...
whenever.
The truth, however, is usually a good defense.
Then am I comitting a crime by stating "Levi's jeans are not and never will
be as good a product as Lee or Wrangler", and "Levi Strauss & Co. should
fall off the face of the earth for taking all their maufacturing plants
overseas, leaving many an American worker jobless, all the while never
lowering their price". Don't buy Levi's. How is that.
Or this band is better than that band, don't buy the (band name) albums.
Or what about "mud-slingin' politicians"
I realize you cannot slander someone, but you can compare and give opinions.
So, people listen to you and maybe take your advice not to buy someones
product. Can't be wrong. Wouldn't a "product testing for the consumer group"
be subject to a libel lawsuit?
I won't say a thing about the predident, just post this link"
http://photomatt.net/archives/2004/04/07/mosaic/
Thank You & Goodnight, David
WinWinscenario
added."
This is how they are going to get the sock-puppets, Henry. Amended complaint.
Regards,
Tom
Christian Feldhaus
> Go download a free copy of acrobat reader ........
That sure is a good idea, but it won't help seeing PHP pages. From what
I know (am not a programmer or web page wiz), Acrobat Reader displays
PDF documents while this PHP is some kind of script language ...
Christian
Eric Babula
news:b4997053udpid2r6d...@4ax.com:
> Just a note that popped up in my mind. AH Collectibles and the
> various renditions of them blocked everyone in RCC from being able
> to bid on their ebay auctions. That would have cost them money
> since they still had some coins that were buyable. Further, they
> refused to respond to email asking why I was blocked from their
> auctions. They themselves would then be responsible for a loss of
> revenue. That is a poor business practice in my opinion.
> Cliff
>
Actually, that same thing happened to me. I bid on three auctions of
theirs, back in June, 2003, and ah-collectibles cancelled all three of
my bids. I had previously made approximately 4 posts to rcc, so,
apparently, I was considered 'one of those mean guys trying to defame
ah-collectibles'. They never responded to my email, requesting why my
bids were cancelled (I still have those emails, if needed). At the
time, I had little idea that there was anything going on with them, or
that they were cancelling all bids from anyone who ever posted to rcc -
only later did I find that out, by reading more of the ng.
Ah-collectibles was solely responsible for it's loss of revenue, in my
case. They gave me no choice but to not bid on their auctions. In my
case, and I bet at least a few others, it had absolutely nothing to do
with those listed in the lawsuit.
Good luck to everyone that's getting sucked into this mess. Hope it all
works out.
--
Eric Babula
Milwaukee, Wisconsin, USA
PCameron
"Christian Feldhaus" <m...@privacy.net> wrote in message
news:1gbx9pi.g1vr5w67slr0N%m...@privacy.net...
PHP is a scripting language that should be supported by the web server you
are connecting to. PHP generates dynamic web pages. It is not a format for
displaying web pages. Since it is located at the web server and not
required to be running on your machine this should not prevent you from
being able to see the web page. This is odd.
J. Craton
I think dobac is confused and when he tries to click the link to open
the documents what he sees is gibberish. If he can't view the press
release page then he has troubles......
The Silver Jar...
> > So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
> > You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
> > I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you or
> > your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I said:
> > "what a crook"!
> > Now, pleeeease sue me :-)
> >
> >
>
> Pretty brave posting from Greece.
Does that make a difference?
Syl.
Bruce Hickmott
alleged to have written:
Oh, yeah. Imagine trying to serve a Greek with a Florida lawsuit. Then imagine
trying to collect in the event of a win.
BTW, I suspect the 'pretty brave' comment was posted by the ACG forum monitor.
The id looks highly suspect.
Bruce (Hi Clayton!)
Bob Peterson
supports scripting much.
"PCameron" <PCam...@Minneapolis.org> wrote in message
news:P5ddc.23687$YC5....@twister.rdc-kc.rr.com...
Bob Peterson
"Bruce Hickmott" <bru...@lexisnexis.com> wrote in message
news:393b70lguvrs1et1i...@4ax.com...
> On 8 Apr 2004 10:20:50 -0700, aristo...@hotmail.com (The Silver
Jar...) is
> alleged to have written:
>
> >> > You maybe can't, but I can comment on it ;-)
> >> > So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
> >> > You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
> >> > I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you
or
> >> > your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I
said:
> >> > "what a crook"!
> >> > Now, pleeeease sue me :-)
> >> >
> >> >
> >>
> >> Pretty brave posting from Greece.
> >
> >
> >Does that make a difference?
> >
> >Syl.
>
> Oh, yeah. Imagine trying to serve a Greek with a Florida lawsuit. Then
imagine
> trying to collect in the event of a win.
Trying to collect in any lawsuit is not as trivial as you might think. Say
you get a $10 million verdict for the plaintiff. Its not $10 million each
defendant but in total, but each defendant is liable for the whole amount.
Really sick legal situation.
After each defendant's insurance company (for those who have insurance)
makes their max payment into the pot, it might well leave a big chunk
uncovered.
gogu
news:nc4dc.2787$zB3.1...@twister.southeast.rr.com...
;-)
The positive things of the distance:-)
At least I can say what everybody thinks and can't say...
I also suppose I have the right to tell my opinion on his grading services,
right?
But pray tell: is the above posting one that could be "sued" by him?
If this is what you imply, then I say that the first amendment is just a
peace of paper without any value in US!
Hopefully it's not!
If saying your opinion is illegal in US these days, then this country is on
a very slippery road...
PS
FWIW, I am in US at least once a year, I have property there, paying
taxes like you, so if someone wants to find me he/she can do it easily ;-)
So I am waiting your sue Mr. Hager!
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
gogu
news:906d1253.0404...@posting.google.com...
These people are extremists!
They believe that saying your opinion is a crime!
Thank G-d there are still judges who believe in freedom of speech in US!
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
> Syl.
gogu
news:393b70lguvrs1et1i...@4ax.com...
> On 8 Apr 2004 10:20:50 -0700, aristo...@hotmail.com (The Silver
Jar...) is
> alleged to have written:
>
> >> > You maybe can't, but I can comment on it ;-)
> >> > So I say: B******T Mr. Hager!
> >> > You destroyed your own reputation by overgrading coins.
> >> > I have bought a couple of ACG coins *before* I new anything about you
or
> >> > your low rating standards and when I saw the coins graded by you I
said:
> >> > "what a crook"!
> >> > Now, pleeeease sue me :-)
> >> Pretty brave posting from Greece.
> >Does that make a difference?
> >
> >Syl.
> Oh, yeah. Imagine trying to serve a Greek with a Florida lawsuit. Then
imagine
> trying to collect in the event of a win.
Hagers are welcomed if they want to try Bruce ;-)
> BTW, I suspect the 'pretty brave' comment was posted by the ACG forum
monitor.
> The id looks highly suspect.
Yep!
First time seen ID.
Go figure...
--
http://www.romclub.4t.com/rabin.html
E' mai possibile, oh porco di un cane, che le avventure in codesto reame
debban risolversi tutte con grandi puttane!
F.d.A
> Bruce (Hi Clayton!)
Bruce Hickmott
to have written:
Google reports one other posting earlier this year from that id. But the
internet fosters paranoia (not that it effects me), so I await a response from
that id.
Bruce
gogu
!!!
So or it was created with the sole purpose to "monitor" or post on rcc, or
he/she is a real lurker with a somehow distorted view of the right of the
freedom of speech:-)
But the
> internet fosters paranoia (not that it effects me), so I await a response
from
> that id.
I think you'll have to wait a lot Bruce ;-)
note.boy
about some vehicles is not very complimentary.
One car got zero stars out of five because in their opinion it is
unstable, as far as I'm aware they have never been sued by a car
manufacturer.
They test the cars and print the results no matter how badly the vehicle
does. Billy
Steve Grant
news:c545vt$2siu$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>
> But pray tell: is the above posting one that could be "sued" by him?
> If this is what you imply, then I say that the first amendment is just a
> peace of paper without any value in US!
> Hopefully it's not!
> If saying your opinion is illegal in US these days, then this country is
on
> a very slippery road...
Like many Americans, who should know better, you misunderstand what the
First Amendment is all about.
Scot Kamins
"Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
> Like many Americans, who should know better, you misunderstand what the
> First Amendment is all about.
Rather than taking what appears to be a cheap shot at Gogu as well as at
many American posters, why not enlighten us with your undoubtedly lucid
analysis of the 1st amendment? And why is there no "sarcasm" emoticon on
this cheap keyboard?
-Scot Kamins
--
*** Collecting euros (for no apparent reason) ***
*** Assembling a U.S. type set (to decide what to specialize in) ***
Bruce Hickmott
alleged to have written:
>In article <c549qs$i...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
> "Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
>> Like many Americans, who should know better, you misunderstand what the
>> First Amendment is all about.
>
>Rather than taking what appears to be a cheap shot at Gogu as well as at
>many American posters, why not enlighten us with your undoubtedly lucid
>analysis of the 1st amendment? And why is there no "sarcasm" emoticon on
>this cheap keyboard?
>
>-Scot Kamins
Well, one thing everybody seems to be missing is the beginning:
"CONGRESS shall not..."
Al Hager is not congress. Neither am I. If i choose to begin deleting your posts
because it's Thursday, I am not violating the first amendment.
The point of the first amendment is to keep the GOVERNMENT from repressing us.
We can repress each other all we please.
Bruce
PCameron
"Bob Peterson" <peter...@insightbb.com> wrote in message
news:c542og$2ovfs8$1...@ID-179783.news.uni-berlin.de...
> IIRC, Tim is still running win3.1. I doubt whatever web browser he is
using
> supports scripting much.
>
The browser doesn't have to support scripting. The server run the PHP code
and the code produces a web page that his browser merely displays.
Bob Peterson
"note.boy" <note...@removentlworld.com> wrote in message
news:4075AA25...@removentlworld.com...
> I get Autocar magazine here in the UK and some of the things they say
> about some vehicles is not very complimentary.
>
> One car got zero stars out of five because in their opinion it is
> unstable, as far as I'm aware they have never been sued by a car
> manufacturer.
>
> They test the cars and print the results no matter how badly the vehicle
> does. Billy
The point is that they do a legitmate review and test of the car and post
their results. Thast generally enough to win a law suit if you are the
defendant.
Steve Grant
news:kamins-59147D....@corp.supernews.com...
> In article <c549qs$i...@dispatch.concentric.net>,
> "Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
>
> > Like many Americans, who should know better, you misunderstand what the
> > First Amendment is all about.
>
> Rather than taking what appears to be a cheap shot at Gogu as well as at
> many American posters, why not enlighten us with your undoubtedly lucid
> analysis of the 1st amendment? And why is there no "sarcasm" emoticon on
> this cheap keyboard?
Not intended as a cheap shot. If many Americans can misunderstand the First
Amendment, it would hardly be reasonable to expect a non-American to get it
right.
The First Amendment does /not/ give you the right to say whatever you want,
about whomever you want, whenever and wherever you want, without fear of any
repercussion. It merely guarantees that the government cannot prosecute you
for normal political speech.
CoinKollector
The Silver Jar... wrote:
Yeah
CoinKollector
Bruce Hickmott wrote:
Hello.
Scot Kamins
"Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> wrote:
> The First Amendment does /not/ give you the right to say whatever you want,
> about whomever you want, whenever and wherever you want, without fear of any
> repercussion. It merely guarantees that the government cannot prosecute you
> for normal political speech.
Thanks. Now, THAT is a contribution.
Jorg Lueke
Even though they had the amendment it didn't stop our founding fathers
from passing the Sedition Act and trying to limit the oppositions
political speech.
Lawyers, Guns, and Money.
Frank Provasek
speech guaranteed by the Constitution prohibits the government from
restricting your speech. Any damages that a non-government entity thinks
your speech has caused has to be answered in court.
Frank Provasek
Past president ACLU of Fort Worth
Frank Provasek
news:1079lh9...@corp.supernews.com...> I realize you cannot slander
someone, but you can compare and give opinions.
> So, people listen to you and maybe take your advice not to buy someones
> product. Can't be wrong. Wouldn't a "product testing for the consumer
group"
> be subject to a libel lawsuit?
Consumers Reports has been sued a number of times, but never lost a lawsuit,
because
their reports use scientific methodology and strictly stick to facts. On a
bad product,
they simply report the facts. They don't call people crooks and call for
boycotts.
Frank Provasek
news:opr551bq...@news.cis.dfn.de...
> Even though they had the amendment it didn't stop our founding fathers
> from passing the Sedition Act and trying to limit the oppositions
> political speech.
>
> Lawyers, Guns, and Money.
>
But these laws were all overturned by the Supreme Court. Of course,
President Bush
thinks something needs to be done when courts overrule the "will of the
people."
Scot Kamins
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@removefrankcoins.com> wrote:
> Frank Provasek
> Past president ACLU of Fort Worth
Huh! I take back all those bad things I've been thinking about you. :-D
"You never know to who you're talkin' "
- Pirate Jenny
DONDI3
<fr...@removefrankcoins.com> writes:
>Consumers Reports has been sued a number of times, but never lost a lawsuit,
>because
>their reports use scientific methodology and strictly stick to facts. On a
>bad product,
>they simply report the facts. They don't call people crooks and call for
>boycotts.
Of course, posters on here were often neither methodical nor did they stick to
facts.
There were silly attacks on a middle-aged woman's appearance for one. There
were others, but you get the idea. Imagine Consumer reports commenting on a
truck designer's fashion sense in an aritcle on safety, for example. They
simply report their findings and let people pursue their own reaction.
Dondi3
DONDI enterprises. BUY, SELL, TRADE. RARE COINS & PRECIOUS METALS
Member COINNET, CSNS, ANA, INA, MOON, ILNA.
gogu
news:c549qs$i...@dispatch.concentric.net...
Not at all!
There is the right of the free speech.
OTOH, free speech does not mean to lie or calumniate.
In my above posting I am *not* lying*, I am just stating my opinion based on
a couple of ACG coins I have in my hands!
Is this considered to be a lie or a calumny?
Think not!
Do I pass the exam or not? :-)
gogu
Pray tell where in my posting I said "...whatever I want,
about whomever I want, whenever and wherever I want..."!
I've just expressed my opinion based on what I have in hands (a couple of
Hager's overgraded coins...)!
You want to say that expressing your opinion is a crime in USA?!
Thank G-d we are not there ... yet...
Jorg Lueke
> Ï "Steve Grant" <ACE...@concentric.net> Ýãñáøå óôï ìÞíõìá
> news:c549qs$i...@dispatch.concentric.net...
>> "gogu" <gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> wrote in message
>> news:c545vt$2siu$1...@ulysses.noc.ntua.gr...
>> >
>> > But pray tell: is the above posting one that could be "sued" by him?
>> > If this is what you imply, then I say that the first amendment is
>> just a
>> > peace of paper without any value in US!
>> > Hopefully it's not!
>> > If saying your opinion is illegal in US these days, then this country
>> is
>> on
>> > a very slippery road...
>
>
>> Like many Americans, who should know better, you misunderstand what the
>> First Amendment is all about.
>
>
> Not at all!
> There is the right of the free speech.
> OTOH, free speech does not mean to lie or calumniate.
> In my above posting I am *not* lying*, I am just stating my opinion
> based on
> a couple of ACG coins I have in my hands!
> Is this considered to be a lie or a calumny?
> Think not!
>
> Do I pass the exam or not? :-)
>
Gogu,
In my non legal opinion stating an opinion is generally O.K. I do not
like so and so. I would never buy a ACG coin sight unseen. I have never
seen ACG's grading standards for United States coins. I have seen the
PCGS standards for grading US coins. I have never seen ACG state that
they guarantee the grades of their coins. To me these type of statements
simply tell the truth.
What is more problematic is when you say person A is a lying, cheating,
crook or simialr statements. Person A knowlingly cheats and defrauds
people. Those are strong statements and would present some evidentiary
back-up if they can made to hold up at all.
Saying I think so and so is a lying fraud (couching it as an opinion)
shouldn't really execuse the implied accusation, especially if it cannot
be proven.
DONDI3
<jluek...@yahoo.com> writes:
>Saying I think so and so is a lying fraud (couching it as an opinion)
>shouldn't really execuse the implied accusation, especially if it cannot
>be proven
Not to belabor the point, but certain statements such as a couple in the
"contacting underbidders" thread contain implied accusations, which some
do not recognize despite alleged education claims. These, while not specific
enough to warrant litigation, can be, if left unchallenged, quite damaging when
others accept them without questioning their merits and/or veracity.
Dondi3
(belaboring the point)
DONDI3
<gola...@NOSPAMyahoo.com> writes:
>Pray tell where in my posting I said "...whatever I want,
>about whomever I want, whenever and wherever I want..."!
>I've just expressed my opinion based on what I have in hands (a couple of
>Hager's overgraded coins...)!
>You want to say that expressing your opinion is a crime in USA?!
>Thank G-d we are not there ... yet..
You need to get a handle on the difference between the civil law and criminal
law.
Nobody was calling it a "crime"...but there are many acts that are not criminal
that
can result in a civil suit here, and in your country as well, I suspect.
Dondi3
WinWinscenario
> from passing the Sedition Act and trying to limit the oppositions
>political speech.
Ah, but it cost Adams the election of 1800 and denied him his second term. He
got even by electing his son, who turned out to be a poor president. Mutandis
mutandi.
Regards,
Tom
MikeCouil
>were others, but you get the idea. Imagine Consumer reports commenting on a
>truck designer's fashion sense in an aritcle on safety, for example. They
>simply report their findings and let people pursue their own reaction.
I get your point, but you can't go suing people because they made fun of your
appearance or societal (is that a word) standing. Hell, Simon Cowell makes a
LIVING doing it to everyone.
Bush's campaign team in South Carolina during Primaries were telling people
that Mccain had an illigitimate Black child when in reality he had an ADOPTED
foreign born child. Mccain didn't send a legal team after them. It's petty.
The simple fact is ACG cut their own profits when they wouldn't even ALLOW the
possibility for anyone who has posted in this forum to buy an ACG coin. If my
neighbor goes around town and tells everyone the tranny is bad in the Ford
Taurus I'm selling, is it his fault that I don't sell the car if I dont allow
anyone who has spoken to him to test drive it?
How the hell can I blame my neighbor for conspiring a boycott if I don't even
ALLOW anyone he's talked to an opportunity to make their own informed opinion.
A) DUMB business sense.
B) Petty and frivelous lawsuit.
The one big thing I look forward to is seeing the evidence of "threats" to
dealers who sell ACG coins. I sure as hell hope none of you defendents were
dumb enough to write anything that looked like a threat.
Mike
K6AZ
>What is more problematic is when you say person A is a lying, cheating,
>crook or simialr statements. Person A knowlingly cheats and defrauds
>people. Those are strong statements and would present some evidentiary
>back-up if they can made to hold up at all.
>
>Saying I think so and so is a lying fraud (couching it as an opinion)
>shouldn't really execuse the implied accusation, especially if it cannot
>be proven.
Jorg, the problem here is that Alan Hager *is* a proven fraud:
http://www.k6az.com/acg/hager_lawsuit.htm
--
K6AZ WEB PAGES
Jorg Lueke
>> There were silly attacks on a middle-aged woman's appearance for one.
>> There
>> were others, but you get the idea. Imagine Consumer reports commenting
>> on a
>> truck designer's fashion sense in an aritcle on safety, for example.
>> They
>> simply report their findings and let people pursue their own reaction.
>
>
> I get your point, but you can't go suing people because they made fun of
> your
> appearance or societal (is that a word) standing. Hell, Simon Cowell
> makes a
> LIVING doing it to everyone.
>
Sure you can sue people, doesn't mean you will win. One thing I find odd
about this suit is that it seems to group together four disparate groups
of people. The PNG people (my guess is becuase of the survey), the ANA
people (because of the complaint DH brought?), the long term anti-ACG
activists, and a bunch of RCC posters who may or may not have made ill
advised comments at some point over the past 4 years. I find it odd that
someone would link these groups, especially the casually usenet posters.
Ah well, I'm sure the lawsuit will educate us all.
Jorg Lueke
Eric, it is undeniable that Alan hager was successfully sued for a variety
of actions based on the link you provide. The fact of that decision is
available and in the public record. And, I did qualify my statement
earlier with the caveat if it can be proven. Now there are still other
questions it brings up. Just because someone was once convicted of fraud
does that mean you can keep calling them a fraud?
Take some 18 year old who takes a neighbor's Porsche for a joy ride and is
convicted of theft. 20 years later he's selling used cars. It is right
to call him a car thief 20 years later? Could you take out a billboard
across from his dealership and advertise that he is a known car thief?
Does it make a difference if he is actually still stealing rather than
having committed a one time offense?
I don't kow the legal answers, I certainly have my own moral feelings
about the matter but law and morality are only somewhat related.
DONDI3
(MikeCouil) writes:
>
>I get your point, but you can't go suing people because they made fun of your
>appearance or societal (is that a word) standing.
Maybe, maybe not, but it damn sure adds fuel to the fire when it comes to
commencing litigation. The "last straw" is no more the cause of the collapse
than the "first straw", but it get's the lion's share of the blame, anyway.
Dondi3
(never grabbed the Devil's tail, either)
Scot Kamins
Jorg Lueke <jluek...@yahoo.com> wrote:
> Does it make a difference if he is actually still stealing rather than
> having committed a one time offense?
>
> I don't kow the legal answers, I certainly have my own moral feelings
> about the matter but law and morality are only somewhat related.
IIRC, in Catholic moral law it is (was?) a veneal sin to engage in acts
either of calumny or detraction. Both of these attack a person's moral
character by speaking of some dispicable characteristic or act. But the
former tells a lie about hir and the latter tells the truth. I have no
idea if there's a distinction in The Law.
MikeCouil
Bad Example:
If the 18 year old kid were selling his stolen cars a year to two years after
being convicted of grand theft auto, then yes, you could still call him a car
thief. You can also call him a fraud if he's selling them with bad trannys.
You dont need to take out a billboard. You simply tell everyone you know that
this convicted car thief is now selling piece of crap cars and they shouldn't
buy from him.
If he turns himself around in 20 years, he's an ex-con who turned his life
around. But he's STILL an ex-con.
Mike
Jorg Lueke
>
> Bad Example:
>
> If the 18 year old kid were selling his stolen cars a year to two years
> after
> being convicted of grand theft auto, then yes, you could still call him
> a car
> thief. You can also call him a fraud if he's selling them with bad
> trannys.
> You dont need to take out a billboard. You simply tell everyone you
> know that
> this convicted car thief is now selling piece of crap cars and they
> shouldn't
> buy from him.
>
> If he turns himself around in 20 years, he's an ex-con who turned his
> life
> around. But he's STILL an ex-con.
>
> Mike
Whether or not he turns his life around and is honest after the initial
act would influence ones desire to act. Obviously it's easy to tell
people a guy is fraud and a car thief if you believe he's still doing
things that are questionable. But even if he is do you have a right to
destroy his business using old facts? Maybe you do, the law is not a
moral code. Of course if he's currently putting in bad tranny's you can
go after him on that fact alone.
K6AZ
That an interesting analogy Jorg, for several reasons. First, if someone
stole a car, it would be a felony. A convicted felon can not own a firearm
or vote the rest of his life. Also, most states require DMV licenses to sell
vehicles, and a license will not be issued to someone who has been
convicted of vehicle theft.
To get down to your point, it doesn't matter how long ago someone was
found to have committed fraud. If I call someone a fraud, and there is a
twenty year old court case where a jury determined this individual defrauded
another party, that statement is true and can not be actionable.
Steven Preston
>Not to belabor the point, but certain statements
>such as a couple in the "contacting
>underbidders" thread contain implied
>accusations, which some do not recognize
>despite alleged education claims. These, while
>not specific enough to warrant litigation, can be,
>if left unchallenged, quite damaging when
>others accept them without questioning their
>merits and/or veracity.
Not to ignore a snide comment, but "implied" accusations are "not
specific enough to warrant litigation" because the court realizes that
if we accept the conclusion of paranoid comprehension challenged
halfwits, the caseload would increase 1000%.
-Steve
Phil DeMayo
>Not to ignore a snide comment, but "implied" accusations are "not
>specific enough to warrant litigation" because the court realizes that
>if we accept the conclusion of paranoid comprehension challenged
>halfwits, the caseload would increase 1000%.
Please don't let him tell me I'm an "implied" vigilante ;-)
++++++++++
Phil DeMayo - always here for my fellow Stooge
When bidding online always sit on your helmet
Just say NO to counterfeits
Jorg Lueke
Interesting stuff Eric. I still wonder how semantics and the skills of
tye legal counsel would play into a possible courtroom decision. Anyway,
I suppose it is time to let this play itself out.
K6AZ
>Interesting stuff Eric. I still wonder how semantics and the skills of
>tye legal counsel would play into a possible courtroom decision. Anyway,
>I suppose it is time to let this play itself out.
Yes it is Jorg. And I find your comments as of late on this issue interesting.
Jorg Lueke
My comments in the past few days or weeks, or my comments in the past few
years as opposed to those I made in 2000 or thereabouts?
Bob Peterson
"WinWinscenario" <winwins...@aol.comdespam> wrote in message
news:20040409121003...@mb-m02.aol.com...
Fact is that a majority of our presidents have truned out to be "poor" in
many ways. But we have survived.
>
> Regards,
> Tom
Bob Peterson
Its a clever legal strategy, and a good story can be made in court that
there is some linkage due to the "paper" trail left here by those bragging
about what happened. It is not necessary in civil litigation to prove things
beyond a reasonable doubt as it is in criminal cases, and a much lower
standard of proof is used. Its a good reason why when you start or join a
crusade you need to think clearly about the potential downstream
consequences - look what happend to the original crusaders. :-)
Steven Preston
>Please don't let him tell me I'm an "implied"
>vigilante ;-)
Oh my, no- why you're positively overt :-)
-Steve
WinWinscenario
>or vote the rest of his life
This statement is overbroad. Only about twenty states have a lifetime ban, and
even some of those have a procedure for restoration of rights that can be
pursued by a convicted felon who satisfies certain conditions.
Regards,
Tom
Dispydoodleitis
>From: John Mason plac...@bellsouth.net
>Date: 4/7/2004 11:50 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <LiVcc.200$UC4...@bignews2.bellsouth.net>
>
>Looks to me, that 46 people are about to be called, and better have al
>their ducks in a row.
why? acg's lawyers do not seem to have any grasp of the facts
nothing like being blindsided
>To bad that it had to go this far, but sounds like
>he is very serious about this,
big deal
he was serious about the other case he lost too
also they have probably defamed the people named in the suit by issuing that
press release, unless they can prove the truth of each statement in the press
release
what makes you thin the defendants arent serious and do not have a far superior
case?
and I'm sure he has lot's of documented
>emails and such to back up his lawsuit.
and then there are the people that sold the emails to acg. they will have to be
named deposed and then testify to get the emails into court. i cant wait to see
who took money or services for emails
also i would be curious if any emails were forged
Dispydoodleitis
>Date: 4/8/2004 1:47 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <c5437n$2p9ndf$1...@ID-179783.news.uni-berlin.de>
>
>Trying to collect in any lawsuit is not as trivial as you might think. Say
>you get a $10 million verdict for the plaintiff. Its not $10 million each
>defendant but in total, but each defendant is liable for the whole amount.
>Really sick legal situation.
>After each defendant's insurance company (for those who have insurance)
>makes their max payment into the pot, it might well leave a big chunk
>uncovered.
thats ok bob
you will at least get to testify
or maybe be named as a defendant
take a look at some of your own posts
maybe you can make up any shortfall
i dont spose you will want to backtrack on some of your words now would you?
Dispydoodleitis
>Date: 4/8/2004 10:57 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <wiodc.6183$Ge5....@newssvr24.news.prodigy.com>
>
>Sorry, but alleged defamation and such is a civil issue. Your freedom of
>speech guaranteed by the Constitution prohibits the government from
>restricting your speech. Any damages that a non-government entity thinks
>your speech has caused has to be answered in court.
>
indeed
>Frank Provasek
>Past president ACLU of Fort Worth
>
i see you making the first anti acg posts i could find dating back to 1999
i guess you will answer in court
http://tinyurl.com/2vm5d
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
From: Frank Provasek (rope...@ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Re: HELP! Accugrade? Opinions please.
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Date: 1999/09/27
xerxes wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I have a dealer offering me several issues graded by ASA or Accugrade in
> a photo slab. I was wondering if these compare to the other grading
> service and if I should pay a lower price for these items than I would,
> say a NGC or PCGS coin with the same grade?
>
> Thanks,
>
> xerxes
A few years ago some dealers in the trade papers were advertising
Accugrade coins at about 1/2 price, and what a bargain they are.
You get what you pay for.
Frank Provasek
Causey's
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
takes away a bit of the idea that causeys was influenced by a conspiracy that
started in 2000 frank
you can explain this
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=3B9AE283.2D5A%40ix.netcom.com
and
and then you say
and
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
http://tinyurl.com/yqnt2
Message 1 in thread
From: Frank Provasek (cau...@ix.netcom.com)
Subject: Accugrade abusive grading?
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Date: 1999/12/09
Several people have brought US gold coins into my store which
they recently purchased from telemarketers. The coins have
generally been $2.50 and $5 Indians that seem to be "Commercial
Unc" (AU58 to MS61.) They are all in ACG Accugrade slabs graded
MS63, and priced at 50% over Greysheet. Another had bought some
$20 Saints graded MS66, which seemed to be nice MS64s. These were
priced at $2500, vs about $625 which we charge for the same coin.
At the Fort Worth Coin Club show Halloween weekend, Walter Magnus
had 3 1877 Indian cents in ACG slabs, all graded Good-4, but none
had full rims, and two were damaged on top of being AG3 !
All this brings back memories of the NCI certificates in the 1980s
where these looser graded coins sold for about 30 cents on the
dollar of Greysheet, but were sold to investors at outrageous
markups.
Any comments on these recent Accugrade slabs?
Frank
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
any comments, mr aclu?
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
brickboytx can answer for this
http://groups.google.com/groups?selm=20011030132147.29764.00001152%40mb-ch
.aol.com
and this
and
bill yates can explain what he meant by this
that should do for now.
each of you can expect a summons
Bob Peterson
"Dispydoodleitis" <dispydo...@aol.com> wrote in message
news:20040412010750...@mb-m10.aol.com...
Which comments would you like me to backtrack on? The ones were I said I
only saw a few acg graded coins at a show? Or the one where I agreed with
the grade ACG had put on the slabbed coins I had seen?
Dispydoodleitis
bob needs specifics to see it so here it is uncut
unedited
and only on pay per view
for entertainment purposes only
while another wins member or more hangs out to dry bob wins#1 wants to discuss
the case like he knows something
he doesnt even remember what he has said and how it exposes him to liability
he is going to be sorry he responded to me instead of reporting what he knows
to the proper authorities.
unless he was full of it when he posted this stuff below
in which case he is going to be screwed over for lying and will be on the hook
for any damages because no one else was lying as far as i kno
so lets discuss things that impact bob instead of bob discussing the things
that impact others
ok?
this will give balance and perspective to bob and allow him and others to see
the right path here
>Subject: Re: ACG issues a press release
>From: "Bob Peterson" peter...@insightbb.com
>Date: 4/12/2004 8:29 AM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <c5e22r$ira6$1...@ID-179783.news.uni-berlin.de>
no bob
the comment about the conversation about acg with dondi in that post
you aren't going to recant on that are you
would you call that conversation a part of a conspiracy? many others are being
sued for doing less than that
Or the one where I agreed with
>the grade ACG had put on the slabbed coins I had seen?
>
are you suggesting that rarely do you agree with an acg grade or what exactly?
i guess you didn't bother checking the threads too closely. i wasnt looking at
your posts in particular when i found those threads
and the actual post in the url might be on a different reply in the thread or
whatever because that was where i was reading when i made the tinyurls
i lurk so posting like this is somewhat unusual for me
i will try to get someone to type for me if i post again
note where you and dondi had a talk about acg in the one thread "seasoned
wisdom" i think you called it
that post kinda drags don into the alleged conspiracy too
but then he has a whole bunch of his own
stuff to reread
for example in
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm=200208
04182242.07318.00000457%40mb-mv.aol.com&rnum=45&prev=/groups%3Fq%3Ddondi%2
Bacg%26start%3D40%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DUTF-8%26c2coff%3D1%26scoring%3D
d%26selm%3D20020804182242.07318.00000457%2540mb-mv.aol.com%26rnum%3D45
don writes
"I thot maybe he meant BU but that would be redundant with the MS64
grade...then, again, it IS an ACG coin...so, maybe not..."
and
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&lr=&ie=UTF-8&c2coff=1&threadm=200107
29204829.09419.00000507%40nso-mv.aol.com&rnum=5&prev=/groups%3Fnum%3D100%2
6hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26ie%3DISO-8859-1%26c2coff%3D1%26scoring%3Dr%26as_drrb%3D
b%26q%3Ddondi%2Baccugrade%2Bgroup%253Arec.collecting.coins%26btnG%3DSearch
%26as_mind%3D12%26as_minm%3D5%26as_miny%3D1981%26as_maxd%3D9%26as_maxm%3D9
%26as_maxy%3D2001
dondi writes "They're all playing
the same game, Accugrade is just more blatantly...uh, financially motivated."
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
not exactly kind words from don there about any grading company but he singles
acg out
get it?
you can both turn a blind eye if you like if you have not been named as
defndants
yet... that is
back to bob
maybe try reading again and look for your other posts in the threads
there is at least one important post in every thread i linked
theres three full posts below
or you could always ignore them and hope they go away
but they are not going to be buried since you called my bluff
which was not a bluff
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
" Message 13 in thread
From: Bob Peterson (peter...@aol.comnospam)
Subject: Re: ACG Franklins on Ebay
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Date: 2001-03-02 20:50:09 PST
>Ok, I'm not a supporter of ACG's grading. But seems that many of the items
>offered by ACG are under bid. So is there anything wrong with placing a bid
>for an ACG coin knowing that the most you'll bid is several grades or so
>lower than the certified grade? I haven't bid on an ACG yet, but sometimes
>think that it may be OK to do so if the bid is in line with the "true"
>grade. I guess that's the problem: you don't know the true grade with an
>ACG coin. But isn't that the same of a raw coin too?
>
there is nothing wrong with bididng on an ACG coin, IF you can get it for a
fair price. then break it out of the acg slab, and send it off to a real
grading company and see how many grades away from reality it was.
perhaps we could have a contest to see if any acg coins grade the same as any
of the real grading companys.
the first contestant to have an acg grade the same as a real grader, would get
the pile of empty acg slabs as a prize. :-)
Bob Peterson
CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1
World Internet Numismatic Society
www.winsociety.org"
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
what part of you writing " then break it out of the acg slab, and send it off
to a real
grading company and see how many grades away from reality it was." is not a
statement regarding acg in a negative way? going to admit or deny the truth of
your statements bob? Agreeing with an acg grade here bob?
how about the part where you wrote
" the first contestant to have an acg grade the same as a real grader, "
is that a compliment or are you making a defamatory statement? seems pretty
clear to me
seems like you better be prepared to back that up with justification
so are you backpeddling or you in the fray?
oh wait
it aint up to you whether you get a summons and complaint from florida for
things you wrote on usenet
funny how you aint in it but you gots plenty to say
funny
to you maybe
I know about 50 others and their families that are not laughing much about this
if you had written your concerns to the ftc instead of here, you would not be
getting this message from me
and you would be much happier to read what is below
as it is
you are prolly next to be added
by then, it might be be too late to complain to the ftc or AG
lets see if you or don "say one thing but mean something else" when the time
comes
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
Message 2 in thread
From: Bob Peterson (peter...@aol.comnospam)
Subject: Re: PNG Internet Rules Committee
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Date: 2001-06-01 05:08:24 PST
In article <3B175990...@coinmag.com>, Barry Stuppler <ba...@coinmag.com>
writes:
>Gentlemen and Ladies,
>For the past year plus, I've been reading posting about
>how none of the coin associations are doing anything
>about the problems caused by unethical sellers of
>rare coins on the Internet.
>
>Well, The Professional Numismatist Guild (PNG) has
>just appointed an official "Internet Rules Committee".
>I'm proud to be on this very important committee.
>
>For any rcc viewer who do not know about the PNG.
>It is a group of many of the largest Professional
>Numismatist (Coin and Currency Dealers), with
>membership of 300-400. For more information
>Visit http://www.pngdealers.com/
>
>So, I'd would really appreciate input from many of the
>concerned numismatist on rcc.
>You can post of RCC or email me directly at
>barry@coinmag,com
>--
>Barry Stuppler,
>Candidate for ANA Governor
>and member of PNG and ICTA.
Will PNG toss any of their members that sell ACG slabbed coins and advertise
them as if they are equivilent to a PCGS slabbed coin?
based on the email I got back from PNG's lawyer, it seems hopeless.
No offense, but since some of PNG's bigger members are also serious offenders
in this area, I doubt that you will see any real protection for us poor
collectors.
Bob Peterson
CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1
World Internet Numismatic Society
www.winsociety.org
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
you are
stating that a pcgs and an acg graded coin are not equal
that is funny when ah-collectibles quotes coin universe prices in its
auctions. isnt cu part of pcgs? for example see
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=525&item=3906616101
and
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=525&item=3906616119
and at
it says
"WHAT DO PCGS PRICES MEAN?
The prices listed in the Collectors Universe Rare Coin Price Guide are the
average dealer asking prices for properly graded United States coins."
how does getting 8 or 9 acg and a ngc or 2 out of ten become equal to 10 pcgs
properly graded coins for the purpose of estimating price for the lot?
is this the type of thing you meant above in response to barry s? serious
offenders at png for selling acg as the equivilent of pcgs? are the auctions
linked above the same serious offense in your opinion? would you call that
misleading advertising to quote cu prices for acg and a few ngc and maybe a
pcgs or two in 400? or is that ok with you? is it one thing for a png member to
sell acg like it was pcgs and another thing if a non png member does it?
or is it ok because there are some ngc slabs in there or is acg now generally
slabbing "properly graded" coins within the standards of pcgs?
8 out of 10 graded coins that were not graded according to pcgs published
standards would tend to change the value, no? actually, the ngc coins would not
necessarily qualify as properly graded under pcgs published standards, would
they?
anyway as you can see, there is plenty enough to have you named as a defendant
certainly you will be deposed as a material witness
you have made numerous bold assertions about acg and you better be able to back
it up or you can be on the hook for the whole judgment according to your own
legal analysis
here's one you may need to revisit below
note how you admit to sending an email to a acg customer and you did it all on
your own and encouraged others at png to act to the detriment of acg
you better have some good reasons for those words because other people are
being accused of doing exactly what you did
funny how they are on the hook and you arent but you talk about the case in a
very nonchalant fashion
you better start thinkiing about how you are going to justify your own words in
these and other threads
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
"Message 1 in thread
From: Bob Peterson (peter...@aol.comnospam)
Subject: More on ACG
View this article only
Newsgroups: rec.collecting.coins
Date: 2001-04-23 22:03:34 PST
I came within an eyelash tonite of buying into one of fastpay's auction deals.
he had a lot of ten slabbed proof cooins for $99.
I was a little nervous cause it did not say what the coins were and even what
the slabbing company was so i passed.
Later I saw someone posted his url and mentione dhe is a big time ACG dealer.
On his web page is a big PNG logo. i clicked on the logo and ended up on the
PNG home page. I sent their email contact address a simple question:
"I am curious what the PNG position is on the sale of Accugrade slabbed coins
by its member dealers.
It seems to me that this should be a major kick in the teeth to the PNG dealers
that sell accurately garded coins."
Perhaps some PNG dealers that object to the PNG logo being used to hawk this
stuff might want to inquire of the leadership of PNG just waht is going on
here. i suspect that a few probing questions from its membership might have
more impact then one from a nobody colelctor like me.
Bob Peterson
CM#1412 ANA#R-182415 WINS#1
World Internet Numismatic Society
www.winsociety.org"
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
or do you disagree
would you have been interested if there were 8 acg and 2 ngc in the lot
instead?
see you in court, wins#1
better go read up on erics site and
then if you see any abuses, like misleading advertising, systematic
overgrading, certification of counterfeit and altered coins, or whatever else
you have a legitimate gripe about with a grading service you can report them at
http://www.ftc.gov
instead of rachet-jawing here if you want me to shut up
only make a complaint if you honestly believe it is true. there is no need to
make up facts or distort the truth in any way. i think anyone interested enough
to get down to here in this post should know that this is a matter for the ftc
and fla AG not the ana, png, icta or its members
write your concerns to the ftc and fla attorney general
the ftc site has a page for coins that says check with the ana and png at the
bottom
http://www.ftc.gov/bcp/conline/pubs/alerts/coinalrt.htm
also it says
"False Slab Certification Claims
Many consumers and financial planners use third-party grading or certification
services to verify grade before they buy. These services "certify" coins as to
grade and usually encapsulate them in a "plastic" holder with some form of
grading certificate or "slab." However, consumers can lose money even when a
certification or grading service is used. Certification services provided by
dishonest coin dealers too often are part of fraudulent sales schemes and are
intended to mislead consumers. In some instances, even certificates or slabs
from legitimate services can be misleading. For example, some certification
services use looser standards than those generally accepted by dealers in the
rare coin market. As a result, the coins they certify may be worth less than
other coins of the same grade. There are special pricing publications and
sight-unseen trading networks for coins certified by major services. Before you
buy any certified coin, make sure that you check its current value in one of
these sources. Some fraudulent sellers may use an old certificate to mislead
you into believing that a coin's grade is accurate by today's standards. Check
the date of any certificate or slab you are offered and investigate the
certification service before you commit to a purchase. "
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
the ftc knows about looser grading standards and how it would be actionable
misrepresentation to compare prices published by a conservative grader to sell
a lesser product
anyway you can make the formal complaint on the site
if what you have been saying is true it is time to step up
if you have not been truthful then shame on you
if this is to be solved in court it is better if the government does the whole
investigation and save the litigants the trouble and money
the ftc has a vested interest in this as the future of the hobby is riding on
this case and people have invested in coins
oh
and so is your financial future at stake
got a few thousand to spend on a retainer in florida
got 10 million to pay off the judgment?
of course if it is all true then you have nothing to worry about except your
legal fees to prove it
of course
the more people that have legitimate complaints that come forward and report to
the ftc, fbi and state AGs the smoother this will go
that would put the onus of investigation on the professionals who are paid for
with tax dollars
iow
let the pros do their job
seen any abuses with your own eyes bob?
have reason to believe any of the testimony from charlotte is true?
got the nads to report it?
then quit posting here and go where it matters and write the truth and include
links and necessary info or stfu with amatuer legal hour and get ready to be
named as a defendant
i suggest working some overtime to pay lawyers for years
unless the other side runs out of money first
or dont
you can do whatever you like
while your brothers and sisters wiggle on the hook and you go scott free
maybe for a few more days anyway
many of them likely never sent email to anyone about acg
but you did
it can hardly be maintained with a straight face that you did not attempt to
interfere with acg business relations with that email
you better hope it was justified and that you have the scratch to prove it
and you better hope the jury believes you
how you like it when someone does acg's lawyer's job for them and makes it easy
bob? don?
sux dont it?
gee if only you had known that posting an opinion based on usenet was going to
get you a guaranteed seat in a fla courtroom
allow me to sing a little song
'bad words
bad words
what ya gona do when day come back at you?'
you best be prepared to tell the truth
and it better be soon
sorry about the punctuation everyone
i have my own punctuation system
it is a 1 to 70 scale
just like sheldon
but different even though i dont mention it in my posts
i use punctuation once for 70 times it is needed
so it is truly a 1 to 70 scale
so bob, you do what you have to
i suggest either sealing your keyboard or making good use of it is in order
here
you too don and anyone that has info that is truthful and relevent
because, either you can come forward or be found hiding
it takes absolutely no guts to ask barry s what he is going to do about
something but when push comes to shove and he has done all he can and others
are under the gun for actions similar to your own you want to come off looking
like you dont know from nothing and had nothing to do with anything and then
spouting off legal advice that one could easily infer as helpful to the very
people you lobbyed against in this very forum, bob
men or mice?
please do the right thing and also do not make me reply again
note.boy
Columbia
dispydo...@aol.com says...
(snip)
I'd love to know who this is.
--
~Columbia~
Steven Preston
Exactly what I'd expect an anonymous aol coward to write. Hey doodle-
you don't expect anyone here to quake at their keyboard over the veiled
threats of someone like you do you? Since you like threatening legal
action, how about this- I tell you you're a world class putz and you try
and find an attorney to sue me for libel.
-Steve
DONDI3
seated...@webtv.net (Steven Preston) writes:
Now THAT's funny.
WebTV putz 'expects' an aol coward/putz to write veiled threats...
Mr. Gigantic Vocabulary is starting to repeat the names he calls those who
disagree with his elementary level logic...
A new level for putzism?
luvit!
Dondi3
Winde Walker
> In article <20040412140607...@mb-m16.aol.com>,
> dispydo...@aol.com says...
>
> (snip)
>
> I'd love to know who this is.
>
Winde
'bamfuzzled'
Steven Preston
>Now THAT's funny.
>WebTV putz 'expects' an aol coward/putz to
>write veiled threats...
>Mr. Gigantic Vocabulary is starting to repeat the
>names he calls those who disagree with his
>elementary level logic...
>A new level for putzism?
>luvit!
>Dondi3
I called you a schmuck- it was you who used the word putz but obviously
senility has set in and you cannot remember what you wrote just a few
days ago. If you did nothing but intellectually evolve for the next 30
years (though thankfully it is unlikely you'll live that long) you still
wouldn't be half as bright as necessary to lampoon my vocabulary. I'm
honored that you feel compelled to append your infantile commentary to
my posts but at least exercise a neuron or two before posting so that
you don't look like you're sticking up for one of the very few people
here stupider than you. Keep it up Don, you'll wear off the ridges of
your thumbprints trying to find the dictionary defnition of the words I
use. You can't compete with me- I look forward to proving that. Oh,
since I know your level of comprehension, I'll explain that the reason
that you can't compete with me is because you aren't smart enough.
Plaudits though for your scintillating neologism "putzism"- nothing like
witnessing the lord of the lexicon at work.
-Steve
DONDI3
seated...@webtv.net (Steven Preston) writes:
>Keep it up Don, you'll wear off the ridges of
>your thumbprints trying to find the dictionary defnition
You're right about that one, at least...
dondi3
(between damnation & dumnition?)
DONDI3
>
>I called you a schmuck- it was you who used the word putz but obviously
>senility has set in and you cannot remember what you wrote just a few
>days ago. If you did nothing but intellectually evolve for the next 30
>years (though thankfully it is unlikely you'll live that long) you still
>wouldn't be half as bright as necessary to lampoon my vocabulary. I'm
>honored that you feel compelled to append your infantile commentary to
>my posts but at least exercise a neuron or two before posting so that
>you don't look like you're sticking up for one of the very few people
>here stupider than you. Keep it up Don, you'll wear off the ridges of
>your thumbprints trying to find the dictionary defnition of the words I
>use. You can't compete with me- I look forward to proving that. Oh,
>since I know your level of comprehension, I'll explain that the reason
>that you can't compete with me is because you aren't smart enough.
>Plaudits though for your scintillating neologism "putzism"- nothing like
>witnessing the lord of the lexicon at work.
>
> -Steve
>
I'm quite amazed, no, shocked, that someone as intellectually superior and in
posession of the vastly bigger vocabulary that you claim, would be quite so
punctuationally challenged. Can anyone spot the 4 simple punctuation errors in
Steve's post?
Let's start with the elementary school students first...;-)
dondi3
(isms 'R us)
WinWinscenario
>
>"I am curious what the PNG position is on the sale of Accugrade slabbed coins
>by its member dealers.
>based on the email I got back from PNG's lawyer, it seems hopeless.
>Bob Peterson
This overt act in the conspiracy to interfere with ACGs business relationships,
writing an email encouraging enforcement action by PNG, sure seems to me to
make Bob Peterson more of an active member of the vigilantes than some of the
named individuals.
What did Chrysta Wilson do? She seems to me to be utterly uninvolved in any
active way, unless there are unspecified activities (no overt act is
specifically attributed to any individual in the lawsuit, so it is impossible
to tell from the pleadings). But I would guess that writing email letters to
the PNG encouraging enforcement action is more than enough to put Bob Peterson
on the skillet.
And this makes it even more surprising that Mr. Peterson is writing screeds
scolding the Defendants for their activities when he would appear to be equally
liable.
Regards,
Tom
DONDI3
winwins...@aol.comdespam (WinWinscenario) writes:
>This overt act in the conspiracy to interfere with ACGs business
>relationships,
>writing an email encouraging enforcement action by PNG
Exactly how does Bob's email "encourage enforcement action"?
Dondi3
Dispydoodleitis
>
>Winde
>'bamfuzzled'
it was a fashion statement
Dispydoodleitis
>Date: 4/12/2004 4:46 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <407B0040...@removentlworld.com>
>
>You may be responding to an ACG mole, be careful. Billy
>
you really think bob is a mole?
Dispydoodleitis
>Date: 4/12/2004 5:48 PM Eastern Standard Time
>Message-id: <MPG.1ae4d8d04...@news.erols.com>
first
i want to know if this stuff below is true or not or if it is all made up or
what
who else wants to know the truth of these statements?
either way it is strong evidence of wrongdoing on someone's part
and the way this is going so far does not seem right
i figure it will cost several hundred thousand in lawyers fees to prove either
way unless the government investigates it for free once and for all
is this stuff for real or what?
http://www.k6az.com/acg/donnan_statement.pdf
http://www.k6az.com/forums/donnan_grades.jpg
http://www.k6az.com/acg/callandrello_statement.pdf
http://www.k6az.com/acg/10_stuppler_callandrello.htm
if the files are lies half truths or what ever
then mr tilrey will have to take it down right?
if any material parts of the statements are true and the people exist then
there is a slight issue or two the other way and the whole case might not
belong in a fla state civil court but in a federal criminal court so why waste
time and resources in a state court
tick tock lawyers meters are running
if you want to know or feel you have a right to know and a duty to the hobby to
find out the truth or falsity of the statements above and others
then forget giving either side money and make a toll free call to the ftc or
fill out a request to investigate this matter to the ftc at their website
before you make a donation
either side would welcome a donation
but the people telling the truth would be helped more by a request for an
investigation
ftc investigation is worth a couple hundred thousand dollars and a few years
time here
in the end this case will go before the ftc anyway and the lawyers for
plaintiffs and defnadants will have to read these documents now or later
if it is big enough to sue 46 people over then it is plenty big enough for the
ftc
46 people is maybe big enough to be class action
if you feel it would be important to get to the bottom of these and the other
rather serious allegations being made just go to www.ftc.gov and ask them to
investigate at once
they will take a close look if they get enough requests
one request is likely not going to do much
50 requests might get some notice
a couple hundred requests might get faster service
time is wasting
i should think both sides would want to have the truth be sorted by a nuetral
agency immediately
i think this calls for proper investigation by the proper authorities listed
above
they have special training and the necessary tools to get to the truth
everyone thinks they are right so everyone ought to ask for the investigation
it will either clear the plaintiffs or clear the defendants
you all have a right to your opinions
and i think you have a right to get to the truth once and for all and not have
to wait years
someone is lying or flat out ignoring the truth
someone is fibbing big time and the lawyers are going to look like fools when
the stuff above is examined
who is lying or playing very loose with the truth
is it callendrello and donnan for instance
do they even exist and is that all true
if so the plaintiffs might want to drop this whole thing real quick
if not then some of the defendants are obviously baked
is k6az or stupler making this up or did it happen or what
is this true or not because i dont know
i wasnt there
http://www.k6az.com/acg/hager_lawsuit.htm
well?
the ftc can verify this in a few seconds if this is all true and if these
people exist
if it is basically true above or basically false is a main question to answer
it is put up or shut up time on this newsgroup
you would think one side or the other has a lawyer that knows the truth and
they are going to mangle the other side in civil court
but what will it prove and at what cost and how long will it take for the
innocent to prove they are the victims
the ftc can get answers very fast and end everyones misery in seconds and stop
lawyers from making money off you
yes seconds and it is all over
the ftc will look into it if asked and
they can shut down whoever they believe is violating the law and freeze the
assets instantly
that would shut down this case and let everyone know where they stand real
quickly so everyone can do the right thing knowing it is the right thing
you can spend a few hundred thousand for each side and wait years for closure
or you can inquire about what the ftc thinks now
if my behind was on the line
i would want to know if all this testimony is true right now before we go any
farther
http://www.k6az.com/acg/transcripts.htm
light candle or curse darkness
word to the wise
some people already know the truth
who do you think does not want the truth to come out
that is who will be hurt by the ftc
if callendrell is lying or donnan or whatever
i want to know
right now
lets let everyone in on the truth including the rest of the coin xollecting
community
seems fair to me
whats everyone else think
it does not matter who you think is lying
lets just get to the bottom of this and end it for the good of the hobby as
well as the innocent people involved
i heard there is a wall street journal or barrons article about this or
something
can i have a link
Steven Preston
>I'm quite amazed, no, shocked, that someone
>as intellectually superior and in posession of
>the vastly bigger vocabulary that you claim,
>would be quite so punctuationally challenged.
>Can anyone spot the 4 simple punctuation
>errors in Steve's post?
You're quite the pedantic pretender. Considering that you use "luvit"
and your linguistic coup de grace "putzism" in your post, it is
laughable that you possess the temerity to critique my grammar. Well,
since you are unable to respond with anything substantive such as an
explanation of how you cannot even recognize your own inanity, it's
rather less than shocking that you would take this approach. Why don't
you enlighten us with your Brobdignangian command of the language and
list the errors? Your comma-tary (see, this is what is known as being
clever, the antithesis of which is "luvit") rings hollow, coming as it
does from someone whose spelling would be considered execrable by a
seven year old. I would say that resorting to this tactic is beneath
you, but then I know there is no such thing.
-Steve
DONDI3
seated...@webtv.net (Steven Preston) writes:
Considering that your friend Roget creates most of your simple minded replies,
temerity
is not a prerequisite to my critique...I learned everything I needed to know
about guys like
you back before I knew how to print my name.
I'll (respectfully, of course) decline your request for help with elementary
grammatical instruction as
I'm growing weary of your ongoing efforts to appear educated and
prose-accomplished at my
considerable expense. I'd suggest some remedial tutoring with any pre-teen
relative who can tolerate your
boorish attitude. I find the time needed for the daily descent to your level
getting difficult to manage and your
desperate attempts at cleverness getting more boring each time.
I think we've been off-topic long enough, and since I'm the only one making any
reasonable
attempt at presenting any semblance of sense in my posts, the load is becoming
loathesome.
WinWinscenario
>>relationships,
>>writing an email encouraging enforcement action by PNG
>
>Exactly how does Bob's email "encourage enforcement action"?
>
>Dondi3
I guess you could read Bob's email--which we haven't seen--as an attempt to
encourage PNG to commercialize ACG slabs. But I think the fairest reading is
that it was an attempt by Bob to discourage PNG from promotion or sale of ACG
slabs by member dealers. In that respect, it is an incitement to enforcement
action, and constitutes an overt act in the "conspiracy" alleged in the
complaint.
Regards,
Tom
Steven Preston
>I find the time needed for the daily descent to
>your level getting difficult to manage and your
>desperate attempts at cleverness getting more
>boring each time.
>I think we've been off-topic long enough, and
>since I'm the only one making any reasonable
>attempt at presenting any semblance of sense
>in my posts, the load is becoming loathesome.
I guess that's a "concede", then. Your absolutely awful alliteration and
atrocious attitude are what is difficult to manage. I don't enjoy having
to swim in your cesspool of self delusion, but you will not break me. I
don't know how you can think you are presenting anything that even
remotely resembles "sense", but you wouldn't be the first person I've
had to deal with who was completely disconnected from reality. You may
also wish to consider that you brought this "load" upon yourself because
you had to be a smartass and deride a post that had nothing to do with
you. Think before you post and everone will be much happier.
-Steve