eBay's Big 4 TPGs
Petronius
ICG certified coins seem to command only a very slight premium over raw coins.
Why do you suppose the marketplace practically disregards ICG as a grading
entity?
Mr. Jaggers
Because they consistently grade coins according to written standards that
have been around a long time. You'll very rarely see a VF coin in an ICG XF
slab. That bothers the crackout crowd mightily, and it's the crackout crowd
that decides who is big and who isn't.
James
Jerry Dennis
Perhaps, but I must interject. ICG is (or at least was) notorious for
liberal grading in MS grades. None of the other TPG have as many
MS-70s as ICG.
Jerry
Mr. Jaggers
> On Dec 11, 9:26?am, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote:
>> Petronius wrote:
>>> In general prices realized are highest for PCGS, then NGC, ANACS and
>>> ICG. ICG certified coins seem to command only a very slight premium
>>> over raw coins. Why do you suppose the marketplace practically
>>> disregards ICG as a grading entity?
>>
>> Because they consistently grade coins according to written standards
>> in an ICG XF slab. ?That bothers the crackout crowd mightily, and
>> it's the crackout crowd that decides who is big and who isn't.
>>
>> James
>
> Perhaps, but I must interject. ICG is (or at least was) notorious for
> liberal grading in MS grades. None of the other TPG have as many
> MS-70s as ICG.
That could very well be the case. I feed on the bottom, collecting only
circulated coins.
James the Sea Anemone
Jud
> Perhaps, but I must interject. ICG is (or at least was) notorious for
> liberal grading in MS grades. None of the other TPG have as many
> MS-70s as ICG.
>
> Jerry
I could argue that point too Jerry, but I probably would get sued!
8-)
Jud the 'Hagar-wary'
Jerry Dennis
Okay, let me interject this, too, "respected TPGs." :-) Oh, wait.
This is ebay we're discussing. We already know who is and who isn't
"respected."
Jerry
Frank Provasek
>
> Perhaps, but I must interject. ICG is (or at least was) notorious for
> liberal grading in MS grades. None of the other TPG have as many
> MS-70s as ICG.
>
> Jerry
According to www.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:
PCGS: 76.98%
NGC: 77.11%
ANACS: 56.79%
ICG: 63.91%
PCI: 49.17%
SEGS: 48.21%
NCI: 40.05%
INS: 29.05%
ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who developed
the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief grader, used the
ANA standards. As such, MOST modern NCLT (noncirculating legal
tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they have been mishandled. (70
is NOT "perfect")
Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards for
"70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic) thus
making PCGS coins "worth" more.
Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS will grade
MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.
From the PCGS official grading guide:
What slight friction? Discoloration on the high points? Who cares!
--
RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES www.frankcoins.com
http://myworld.ebay.com/frankcoins Texas Auction License
11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - Full Time Since 1991
Jerry Dennis
> On Dec 11, 5:21�pm, Jerry Dennis <JDen1...@aol.com> wrote:
>
>
>
> > Perhaps, but I must interject. �ICG is (or at least was) notorious for
> > liberal grading in MS grades. �None of the other TPG have as many
> > MS-70s as ICG.
>
> > Jerry
>
> valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:
>
> PCGS: 76.98%
> NGC: 77.11%
> ANACS: 56.79%
> ICG: 63.91%
> PCI: 49.17%
> SEGS: 48.21%
> NCI: 40.05%
> INS: 29.05%
>
> ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who developed
> the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief grader, used the
> ANA standards. �As such, MOST modern NCLT (noncirculating legal
> tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they have been mishandled. �(70
> is NOT "perfect")
>
> Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards for
> "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic) thus
> making PCGS coins "worth" more.
>
> Conversely, many 19th century coins with "rub" that PCGS �will grade
> MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.
>
> From the PCGS official grading guide:
>
> What slight friction? �Discoloration on the high points? �Who cares!
>
> --
> 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
> Member TNA, ANA, PCGS, NGC - �Full Time Since 1991
I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they seem
a lot tougher on MS grades.
That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.
Jerry
Mr. Jaggers
> On Dec 17, 3:40?pm, Frank Provasek <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 11, 5:21?pm, Jerry Dennis <JDen1...@aol.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>> Perhaps, but I must interject. ?ICG is (or at least was) notorious
>>> for liberal grading in MS grades. ?None of the other TPG have as
>>> many MS-70s as ICG.
>>
>>> Jerry
>>
>> According towww.greysheet.com, these are the average relative
>> valuations for sight-unseen dealer bids:
>>
>> PCGS: 76.98%
>> NGC: 77.11%
>> ANACS: 56.79%
>> ICG: 63.91%
>> PCI: 49.17%
>> SEGS: 48.21%
>> NCI: 40.05%
>> INS: 29.05%
>>
>> ICG, at least until about a year ago with J.P. Martin (who developed
>> the ANA grading seminars and standards) as its chief grader, used the
>> tender) trinkets WILL grade 70 unless they have been mishandled. ?(70
>> is NOT "perfect")
>>
>> Services such as PCGS, with almost unobtainable internal standards
>> for "70," make that grade artificially scarce (in their plastic) thus
>> making PCGS coins "worth" more.
>>
>> MS61 or MS62, would be graded AU58 by ICG.
>>
>> From the PCGS official grading guide:
>>
>>
>> --
>> RARE COIN AUCTIONS NO RESERVES
>> License 11259, Board member of Texas Coin Dealers Association,
>
> I found the greysheet bid percentages interesting. I would have
> thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they seem
> a lot tougher on MS grades.
>
> That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
> whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.
...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?
James the Provocateur
Frank Provasek
>
> - Show quoted text -
In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
raw) on authentication.
Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law enforcement.
Mr. Jaggers
Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
title bar? I see a lot of dubious material there, but always a statement
such as "as is" or "I don't know if this is real or not" or "This is what my
grandfather's envelope says on it."
James the Shocked
Bruce Remick
"Frank Provasek" <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote in message
news:346c8677-810e-4071...@j24g2000yqa.googlegroups.com...
=================
I think it's ironic that, while we we feel qualified to judge the grades
assigned to our coins by the various TPGs like teachers grading students'
papers, our judgement means little to a buyer when selling a raw coin. If
we can tell when a TPG is accurate or not, why do we need the TPGs? I think
I know the answer.
Peter Irwin
Why do people think this would be any kind of legal defence? I'm pretty
sure it is just the opposite. "I don't know if it is real or not"
demonstrates that it occurred to the seller that it might be fake
and that the seller did not take any reasonable steps to determine
the genuineness of a coin.
Peter.
--
pir...@ktb.net
Frank Provasek
>
> - Show quoted text -
No, you can claim a fake coin is GENUINE, and ebay will seldom
question the auction, because "we have no numismatists on staff" and
such things about mintmarks of the totally wrong style and position
"are up to interpretation" so they usually side with the sellers
because ebay "believes all people are basically good."
But they are very efficient at removing auctions for "unapproved"
slabs...since all 4 of the "approved" grading services happen to have
various
endorsement fee, cross promotion, discount, profit sharing, referral
promotions with ebay....
Frank Provasek
> Are you saying that one can list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW,
> identified as such in the listing, right out in the open, including in the
> title bar?
>
> James the Shocked- Hide quoted text -
>
> - Show quoted text -
I neither said nor implied anything of the sort.
Mr. Jaggers
The real irony of all this is that eBay has, buried in its
near-hermetically-sealed regulations, two contradictory policies about
authenticity disclaimers - one prohibiting them and the other saying that
they are allowed. Here is a link to the prohibition:
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/authenticity-disclaimers.html
Here is a link to the wording that allows them (note: it's hidden behind
the "additional information" button):
http://pages.ebay.com/help/policies/selling-coins.html
James
Mr. Jaggers
OK, I'll bite, who posted this, really?
James
Mr. Jaggers
That is indeed a sad state of affairs.
James
Frank Provasek
>
> From the PCGS official grading guide:
>
> What slight friction? Discoloration on the high points? Who cares!
>
I received an email assuming that this is a paraphrase of PCGS's
philosophy, that they could not possibly actually
say "who cares" whether a coin graded Mint State has slight wear, and
asking exactly
how they worded it.
from The Official Guide to Coin Grading and Counterfeit Detection by
Professional Coin Grading Service (PCGS).
Jerry Dennis
>
> - Show quoted text -
Paragraph 1 - I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of RCC-ers.
The "big four" plus PCI and SEGS are all relatively accurate in the
lower grades, I have no problem with any of them.
Paragraph 2 - Screw ebay.
Jerry
Mr. Jaggers
> On Dec 18, 9:53?am, Frank Provasek <fr...@frankcoins.com> wrote:
>> On Dec 18, 2:51?am, "Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com>
>>>> thought ANACS would have rated higher (closer to 70%) since they
>>>> seem a lot tougher on MS grades.
>>
>>>> That not withstanding, I must point out here that I have no grief,
>>>> whatsoever, with ICG grading in the AU and below grades.
>>
>>> ...and how about the others in the AU and below grades?
>>
>>> James the Provocateur- Hide quoted text -
>>
>>> - Show quoted text -
>>
>> In circulated grades, the 4 "approved" services and PCI and SEGS are
>> pretty close, and all are very good (and certainly far better than
>> raw) on authentication.
>>
>> Ebay allows you to list a 1916-D dime with a fake mintmark RAW -- but
>> if you offer one and mention that it is in a slab from PCI or Larry
>> Briggs's SEGS, ( almost certainly genuine) Ebay will end the auction,
>> and issue sanctions, up to and including reporting to law
>> enforcement.- Hide quoted text -
>>
>> - Show quoted text -
>
> Paragraph 1 - I agree wholeheartedly with the majority of RCC-ers.
What does the majority say? I'm not sure I'm part of it.
> The "big four" plus PCI and SEGS are all relatively accurate in the
> lower grades, I have no problem with any of them.
Relative to what? The ANA Grading Standards, or to each other?
> Paragraph 2 - Screw ebay.
No, thanks, I still like eBay.
James the "Relative" Virgin
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
I like Ebay - it helps me to get many collectable items I've never
seen and never knew existed.
Of course, I'm not trying to play the "long-distance crack-out U.S.
coin game".
oly
Mr. Jaggers
Ebay is amazing, with the caveat that one has to be both very knowledgeable
and very careful. Where else can a guy find world coins that retail for
less than five bucks? Set your search terms as favorites, and you can pick
off the auctions almost effortlessly. It sure beats going through binders
at shows.
And you're right about the crackout game. B-a-a-a-a-a-a-d idea to try it on
eBay.
James
oly
>
> - Show quoted text -
But they DO try to play "the long distance crack-out game" using
Ebay. Every damn day. IT IS SO AMAZING.
The USPS must be so grateful.
It is as if somebody who was relatively savvy enough to have the
thingie slabbed (for better or worse) was going to let a high-end coin
(in a mis-graded holder) go for nothing. But it seems to happen every
day.
If you're going to play the crack-out game, you gotta (at a minimum)
go in person to decent coin shows and lay out the $$$ that is
necessary to personally attend and to see the coins in person. But
there seem to be legions of pole-troons who think they can just cruise
Ebay and beat out hundreds of other pole-troons on highly desireable
undergraded stuff. Preposterous.
I would say that if the hoi polloi collector had the opportunity to
buy ANY coin in a "leading slab", then - at best - that coin was
AVERAGE for the grade.
Buy coins as historical artifcats, not as "investments".
oly
Bruce Remick
"Mr. Jaggers" <lugburzman[at]yahoo[dot]com> wrote in message
news:hgh6q...@enews5.newsguy.com...
Always been my sentiments as well. And where else can you expose your sale
items to a world of potential buyers for anywhere near the price? Now if I
can just find a way to turn off that "hover" feature that pops up a big
photo whenever my curser happens to cross that "Enlarge" link for each
auction on the search results page.
Mr. Jaggers
> I would say that if the hoi polloi collector had the opportunity to
> buy ANY coin in a "leading slab", then - at best - that coin was
> AVERAGE for the grade.
Now, you done gone and said a mouthful there, mon vieux. By the time a slab
gets into a dealer's case at a show, and I see it, it has already been
rejected by, oh, how many would you say, potential buyers during the
"dealer's preview" hours.
> Buy coins as historical artifcats, not as "investments".
That's been my mantra since the beginning, way back in nineteen mumbly-four
when I plunked my first Lincoln cent into that blue Whitman folder. And
it's been one fantastic journey!
James
Mr. Jaggers
As I approach my mid-geezerhood, I start calculating the real cost of going
to all the shows I have attended over the last 30 years. When I do that,
the premiums I might have to pay to an eBay vendor and the postage to get
the coin shipped to my door suddenly become very tolerable, even astute
business acumen.
James the Cheapskate