Ancients are cooler than modern coins
Reid Goldsborough
Compared to modern coins, especially American coins, ancients have
more history and better eye appeal, and they can be very rare if
you're into that (I'm not).
The history goes without saying. You can spend lots of enjoyable time
learning very cool things about any given ancient, from the time
period and place where it was minted to the life of the king/emperor
depicted on it. There's also the symbolism, which is typically more
varied than on modern coins.
Regarding eye appeal, no coins are more beautiful than ancient Greeks,
which typically are very, even ultra, high relief. I can stare
totally mesmerized at any of a dozen Greeks I've picked up over the
past several months. In a state of revery. Amazed at the sheer
physical beauty of these artifacts you can hold between your fingers.
I'm not exactly sure why more Americans aren't into ancients, though I
have a few ideas. Ancients are more popular in Europe, I'm told, no
doubt because that's one place they're dug up, but also because
Europeans are more worldly, in general, than Americans. Too many
Americans think the world starts and ends in the good old U. S. of A.
Not trolling here -- just an opinion, again.
Maybe ancients also scare away some collectors because they're not as
neat and orderly as modern coins. They don't present themselves in a
series that begins in one year, clearly marked on the coin, and ends
in another. Instead of being produced at two or three mints, a single
issue, an Alexander for instance, may have been produced at any of 25.
They can be challenge even to attribute. You really do have to read
the book, or at least the Web, before you buy the coin.
Ancients aren't as amenable to the anal-retentive type of collector as
moderns. But you can still set up goals for yourself and meet them.
Right now I'm creating design set of Alexander the Great coins, minted
during his reign, in his name after his death, or depicting him after
his death. I won't be able to obtain them all -- there are some hugely
rare and expensive coins here. But I'll be able to create a
representative set in grade levels from aVF (that's almost very fine)
to gEF (good Extra Fine or the equivalent of an AU American coin) in
bronze, silver, and gold.
Roman coins are easier to collect and amazingly affordable given their
age. Some people focus on a single emperor, others try to collect one
coin of as many emperors as they can. You can buy fourth-century
bronzes for under $5 that are in surprisingly good shape. I've created
a little set of bronzes of the Constantine family -- Constantine the
Great and his three sons. Each has a fascinating story, starting with
Dad, who as the first Roman emperor to embrace Christianity was more
responsible for spreading it than anyone. Almost. His sons weren't
very Christian though. Constantine II was killed invading Constans'
territory. Fascinating stuff...
--
Draped Busts: http://www.draped-busts.com
eny...@my-deja.com
because they generally know very little about ancient history. They
might know a few of the more famous names, but even then, probably
couldn't tell you much about them, outside of what they might have seen
in a movie or two. Still, there are a fair number curious about ancient
history and a few will venture into collecting ancients. The other thing
that probably keeps the masses from collecting ancients is that it
probably seems overwhelming at first. Most beginners probably don't know
what is out there or what things are worth. Thankfully, there are more
guides for that type of thing than ever before, but most collectors are
probably unaware of them or how to obtain them.
Dan
Sent via Deja.com
http://www.deja.com/
colum...@my-deja.com
references are not as easily found as the ubiquitous Red Book, there are
no "Trends" in the easily found coin publications, the legends are not
as easily read and you can't pull them out of your pocket change. There
is also the natural human tendency to be more attracted to the coins of
your own country.
This holds true of foreign coins in general. Pick up a copy of World
Coin News & look at the price levels of quality foreign coins. Then
check the availability. You'll see some pretty scarce stuff (that might
only appear once or twice a year) selling for *VERY* reasonable prices.
And the grading tends to be better.
A person of modest means can put together an outstanding collection of
nice foreign coins. You can't really do that in U.S. coins unless you
have a very substantial income.
Just to pick a random example, consider the "Rebel Peso" of Argentina.
This is a classic rare crown of the Americas. Only about 20 examples of
this *TYPE* are known to exist, and most of these are unevenly struck or
have flan flaws. Yet if a well-struck unflawed VF (i.e. among the 2 or
3 best known to exist) were to be offered, it would likely bring well
under $5000.00.
And there are *many* more examples just like that.
In article <8j4q6t869chig129t...@4ax.com>,
Mike Echo Mike
> The history goes without saying.
the man who was secretary of state when this coin was struck became
president when that coin was struck. History rides in the back of the
American bus. But with ancients, history is everything. Absent
history, it is just a metallic object, pretty indeed, but no different
from any other medal in any other time or place.
> Regarding eye appeal, no coins are more beautiful than ancient Greeks,
> which typically are very, even ultra, high relief.
This takes some practice. I grew up in Cleveland and once I was old
enough to take a bus by myself across town, I would spend Sundays at
the Museums, walking through the Art Museum on my way to the Science
museum. I mention this because when I show beautiful ancients to
collectors of Americans the other collectors look blank. "So what?"
Then it dawned on me what I always "knew" -- Art has context, it is a
language for times and places. Medieval people COULD have produced
lovely art but that was not the LANGUAGE of their art. American coins
look prettier to Americans because of a vocabulary of line and space.
However, granted that, I think that once you understand classical art,
the ancient coins are far, far more compelling that the best American.
The $20 Saint and the 50 cent Walker are cheap knock-offs.
Also, this is funny, because the standard story about Teddy Roosevelt
and the Mint is that the Mint claimed it could not strike in high
relief and yet the ancients did it BY HAND.
> I'm not exactly sure why more Americans aren't into ancients.
Well, democracies slide downhill and public education has been with us
since Horace Mann came back from Prussia all glassy-eyed. However, the
Founders of the Republic did collect ancients and every now and then,
you can find coins from the John Quincy Adams collection or similar on
the auction block. At a recent coin show, I met a young man with some
rifle association patriotic t-shirt who collected Kennedy Halves. Talk
about mixed-premise philosophies! I believe that any TRUE patriot would
collect Roman and Greek coins first and then the Americans up to the
Democratic Depression of 1929. All of which is to say that most
American coin collectors lack the intelligence to collect ancients.
>Ancients are more popular in Europe,
Well, yes, that is home for them, but realize that wanting to distance
America from British and European Feudalism, the Founders of our
Republic looked to Rome and Greece as their direct forebears. The US
Constitution is a direct application of Aristotle' Politics with a
strong middle class and a government restricted by tradition as opposed
to a democracy with an unrestrained government of lower classes.
> Maybe ancients also scare away some collectors because they're not as
> neat and orderly as modern coins.
I agree that sometimes you the collector have to give the order to the
collection. One of the erstwhiles here cites Thomas Elder on the crowd.
So, I guess I agree with you that you have to see order where perhaps
none is smacking you in the head 1969-S, 1970-D,... the fact is that
the ancient coins were very orderly in their way. You just have to
understand them. Many have marks we only now grasp and then not well.
Mint marks? Moneyers monograms? Perhaps valuations? or even perhaps
number struck? I am writing an article about this now.
> Right now I'm creating design set of Alexander the Great coins, minted
> during his reign, in his name after his death, or depicting him after
> his death
I thought I bit off a lot with "Coins from the Towns of Philosophers."
> Roman coins are easier to collect and amazingly affordable...
Anyone who can collect Lincoln Cents can be successful building a
worthwhile set of Roman Emperors. In fact, the silver and bronze coins
of the USA would have passed easily on the streets of imperial Rome:
E Pluribus Unum.... United States of America... Liberty...
Goddess/Eagle... Goddess/Wheat Stalks... Emperor/Eagle... Emperor/Wheat
Stalks... Emperor/Temple ...
I collect coins worth a day's wages from the lifetimes of philosophers,
typically small silvers, obols and drachma and such. Miletos for
Thales, Abdera for Democritus, Klazomenae for Anaxagoras... My
inspiration was the lecture "Backbone of the Night" from COSMOS by Carl
Sagan.
--
The name of Hellene no longer belongs to a particular race
but to a disposition of mind. -- Isocrates
--
We lived in fear of the mountains of Spain
over which we had to fly, and in awe of our elders.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
We lived in fear of the mountains of Spain
over which we had to fly, and in awe of our elders.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
--
We lived in fear of the mountains of Spain
over which we had to fly, and in awe of our elders.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
Reid Goldsborough
>Thankfully, there are more
>guides for that type of thing than ever before, but most collectors are
>probably unaware of them or how to obtain them.
Very true. I have on load from the ANA library six books on ancients.
I would highly recommend, for beginners as well as immediate
collectors who aren't terribly well read, Wayne G. Sayles' series
titled Ancient Coin Collecting. Very well organized, very well
written, with representative photos. Puts it all in perspective. You
don't have to read all six books -- I've read just the second, on
ancient Greece, and gained a lot from it.
Reid Goldsborough
<mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>American coins look prettier to Americans...
Numismatic aesthetics ... fascinating subject that doesn't get enough
attention.
Too many American coins are butt ugly ... all the Barbers, the Morgan
dollar, the three-cent nickel, the two-cent nickel and shield nickel,
all the current series with the possible exception of the Sacagawea.
The Saints and Walkers are the nicest, with the Standing Liberty
quarters a close third. Buffalo nickels are beautiful in their own way
-- a native American on the obverse whose face might be considered
ugly in a classical sense though it's stunningly beautiful in its
authenticity and unaffectedness. I look forward to the Buffalo
commemorative dollar.
>I collect coins worth a day's wages from the lifetimes of philosophers,
>typically small silvers, obols and drachma and such. Miletos for
>Thales, Abdera for Democritus, Klazomenae for Anaxagoras... My
>inspiration was the lecture "Backbone of the Night" from COSMOS by Carl
>Sagan.
Sounds like you've got a cool collection there. Lots of different ways
to bring order to an ancients collection, I guess.
One thing I'm really interested in is how hoards make their way from
underground to collectors' hands. It's something that dealers are
typically very wary of talking about. They don't want to give away
their sources, and much of this is flat-out illegal, with some
country's unwilling to have exported what they consider their national
heritage.
I have a fantasy of flying to Babylon with a metal detector. Of
source, even if I could get there, I'd likely get thrown into some
rat-infested prison for about a decade. The Black Sea area seems a hot
place right now for unearthing ancients. Though it's a hot place for
the minting of fakes as well...
Reid Goldsborough
>I think ancients are not as popular because the
>references are not as easily found as the ubiquitous Red Book, there are
>no "Trends" in the easily found coin publications, the legends are not
>as easily read and you can't pull them out of your pocket change.
Yep. And the standard book references, such as Sear and Price and
others I'm not yet aware of, tend to be expensive. The Web helps
though. There are a number of good ancients sites out there. Anybody
care to recommend their favorites?
John Muchow
but I'm looking forward to reading #6. And they're all quite
affordable.
John Muchow
Anka Z
> I'm not exactly sure why more Americans aren't into ancients, though I
> have a few ideas. Ancients are more popular in Europe, I'm told, no
> doubt because that's one place they're dug up, but also because
> Europeans are more worldly, in general, than Americans. Too many
> Americans think the world starts and ends in the good old U. S. of A.
Modern Europeans are constantly reminded of their recent and distant
pasts: Baroque churches, Renaissance palaces, medieval cathedrals,
vestiges of Greek and Roman edifices, prehistoric cave paintings...
My husband was born in a village in Slovenia where the newer of the two
churches is 300 years old. The older church, recently restored, dates
from the 13th century. His family homestead still carries the name of
the original ancestral owners, as do many of the houses in Eastern
Europe, and his family members are still called by this name instead of
their surname. A nearby town hugs the base of a hill that is crowned
with a church dating from Ottoman times. While bonfires were lit to
warn of the approaching Turks, its walls, still standing today,
protected the citizenry. In this and other regions of Slovenia, you
might come across a Roman bas relief pressed into the exterior wall of
an 18th century church. You might stumble upon a Roman column's capital
decorating a front yard. Your neighbor might be the caretaker for one
of the temples of Mithras...
There's no need to visit a museum to catch a glimpse of history because,
in Europe, history is all around you.
Not so in America. And there's the difference.
J. Stone
I remember staying at a hotel in Chester, UK that was built before the time
of Columbus coming to America. I was kind of amazed by that.
Anka Z
> The Black Sea area seems a hot
> place right now for unearthing ancients. Though it's a hot place for
> the minting of fakes as well...
>
Careful now...you might be encroaching on Slavei's territory... ;-)
Anka Z
>
> I remember staying at a hotel in Chester, UK that was built before the
time
> of Columbus coming to America. I was kind of amazed by that.
>
Ditto.
We were visiting a priest/friend of ours in Bled, Slovenia who pointed
out the restoration work being done to the building next to the parish
house. It was being converted to a hostel for visiting youth. Built in
1491. That blew my mind.
R&V Childers
though I differ on the reasons. I happen to be american and collect
modern AND ancients (as well as paper money). We, as a rule, like to
pigeon hole things... we like to see a beginning and end, generally like
things that can be categorized and, as a society, seem obsessed with
what's newest and shiniest. In comparison with most ancients, american
coins have a "paper trail" of types, dates, mints, denominations and
mintages. That may help explain the wider appeal of modern coins here.
And, of course, moderns are what's most easily available. Plus, there is
the possibility that many americans collect american coins because it's
OUR history, and our history with coins only goes back 500 years as
opposed to europe or asia with thousands of years of numismatic history.
There is also the question of availability here as well. Old coins have
often been found while digging a well or even plowing a field in europe,
while here in america, ancients are often only found in the major
metropolitan areas or through mail orders and a usually more expensive
here than in europe. Of course, this is just my opinion as someone who
has attended hundreds of coin shows, talked with hundreds of dealers and
other collectors and has collected coins personally (ancient and modern)
for almost forty years.
Reid Goldsborough
<vchi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>I tend to agree that most americans collect modern vice ancient coins,
>though I differ on the reasons. I happen to be american and collect
>modern AND ancients (as well as paper money). We, as a rule, like to
>pigeon hole things... we like to see a beginning and end, generally like
>things that can be categorized...
Sounds like you're agreeing with me, not disagreeing.
Other things I like about ancients: You don't have the
obsessive-compulsive interest in the tiniest differences in grade and
in the tiniest differences in die variety, as you do with U.S. coins.
Cleaning isn't as much of an issue either, as all (virtually all?)
ancients have been cleaned in one way or another.
With ancients, the focus is the beauty of the coin itself and its
context, rather than how it was minted and preserved.
Mike Echo Mike
> Numismatic aesthetics ... fascinating subject that doesn't get enough
> attention.
Well, yes, and no. It so happens that Jonathan Kern, Wayne Sayles, and
Donald Kagin all have degrees in numismatics. Numismatics is usually
taught in the Art History department. I think that one reason that the
Morgan Dollar is successful to the American eye is that Barber and
Morgan spent a lot of effort designing coins. We have all those late
19th century Patterns. And, frankly, once unleashed, private
numismatics does not blow everything else out of the water. The
Franklin Mint and Pobjoy are about the height of it all and they
produce what they know OTHER people will like, so innovations are
minimal, though their coins can be dramatic.
> Buffalo nickels are beautiful in their own way
> -- a native American on the obverse whose face might be considered
> ugly in a classical sense though it's stunningly beautiful in its
> authenticity and unaffectedness.
I personally believe that the Buffalo Nickel is America's Handsomest
Coin and have gone on record at length saying so. And I agree that the
reason for its success is that it is "classical."
Tim
Though it's a hot place for the minting of fakes as well...>>
The Black Sea region is just plain hot. Comes with the terrain.
8-)
-- Dobac
Anka Z
do...@aol.comstock (Tim ) wrote:
> The Black Sea region is just plain hot. Comes with the terrain.
>
Actually...the region is not unlike southern California. In fact,
Yalta in the Crimea is Santa Barbara's sister city, they're so
similar. The same goes for Odessa and Nessebur, Bulgaria. We were
there in the month of August and the weather was balmy, quite pleasant.
Now, Athens. Athens is HOT.
Brad
Agreed, though it definitely is a personal opinion
sort of thing, as for any collecting preference.
>They can be challenge even to attribute. You really do have to read
>the book, or at least the Web, before you buy the coin.
This is definitely true, but in some way contradicts
your next statement...
>Ancients aren't as amenable to the anal-retentive type of collector as
>moderns.
Depends on what you mean by anal-retentive.
The challenge to fully attribute ancient coins can be
taken to one of a number of levels. And if volume 8
of Roman Imperial Coinage isn't anal-retentive, I don't
know what is!
For those looking for introductory information on collecting
ancient coins, please see my web site, if you haven't
already.
http://www.blarg.net/~brad/coins.htm
Brad
Brad
>others I'm not yet aware of, tend to be expensive. The Web helps
>though. There are a number of good ancients sites out there. Anybody
>care to recommend their favorites?
Don't forget "Handbook of Ancient Greek and
Roman Coins" by Zander Klawans. Available
at many bookstores for under $15. It's a bit
of a hodgepodge for the beginner, but does have
lots of valuable information, and in the
world of numismatic books, is a bargain.
But if this book doesn't answer many of your
questions as a beginner, look around the web for
introductory web sites (mine has some links to
better ones than mine), and read the introductions
in Sear's catalogs or the Vagi set of books.
Mark
marks when the river Main would flood.
( have I got the name right? ). The oldest date marked was 1029. Yowza!
Mark
Brad
>obsessive-compulsive interest in the tiniest differences in grade and
>in the tiniest differences in die variety, as you do with U.S. coins.
True for grading, but not entirely true for die variety,
in a sense. Later Roman coins are catalogged (sp?) to
an amazing level of detail. There are hundreds of varieties
of mint and officina marks. I guess this isn't technically
a die variety issue, as I understand the term. But the
net affect is very similar.
>With ancients, the focus is the beauty of the coin itself and its
>context, rather than how it was minted and preserved.
Well, it's up to the collector to determine what the
focus is. So do as you say. Some collect for value
or rarity. Some buy to sell. But with ancients
it takes many years to see the most common types of
coins, so the period where everything seems new lasts
for a long time.
eny...@my-deja.com
Reid Goldsborough <reid...@netaxs.com> wrote:
> Other things I like about ancients: You don't have the
> obsessive-compulsive interest in the tiniest differences in grade and
> in the tiniest differences in die variety, as you do with U.S. coins.
I think you have to grade ancients differently than you would modern
coins. Since they're not all struck uniformly and since dies vary so
much, you can't have the same precise guidelines as say with American
coins. That said, if one grades honestly, there tends to be a general
consensus among collectors as to what constitutes "Fine" or "Very
Fine". I think we ancient collectors tend to look at the overall "look"
of the coin.
I don't think many ancient collectors are into die varieties, probably
because there's just so many and it'd be financial suicide to collect
that way. In fact, it seems to me it'd be harder to find 2 ancient
coins from the same die!
> Cleaning isn't as much of an issue either, as all (virtually all?)
> ancients have been cleaned in one way or another.
>
Well, there's good cleaning and then there's bad cleaning. Plus some
collectors prefer a good patina on their bronzes.
Dan
Stujoe
thusly...
I think you have hit on my reason. I have had an interest in ancients,
especially Greek. My problem is really that I have no idea of what I am
looking for when I think about buying some.
I am not looking for anything expensive but I really don't have a great
idea of where to start or how not to get ripped off. Thanks to this
thread though I have some leads and ideas.
I doubt I will make a "collection" of ancients but I would like to have
a few to admire because history is one of the things that drives my coin
collecting in general.
Besides that they are just cool and would make for great "show and
tell" coins.
--
SJ Miller
Peter T. Davis
or 13th century.....
Peter
"Mark" <oomn...@willinet.net> wrote ...
Tim
>> (Tim ) wrote:
>> The Black Sea region is just plain hot. Comes with the terrain.>>
>Actually...the region is not unlike southern California. >
Really?
Like: Bakersfield, Palm Springs, El Centro, Needles, Twenty-Nine Palms,
Barstow, Death Valley ...
-- Dobac
Reid Goldsborough
<stu...@NONADASPAMprodigy.net> wrote:
>Besides that they are just cool and would make for great "show and
>tell" coins.
Compare...
This is a coin 2,400-year-old coin from ancient Greece that could very
well have passed through the hands of Socrates, Plato, or Aristotle,
an amazing work of art, as you can see.
with...
This is a cent that the designer put his initials on -- see, right
here, they're very tiny. It's really the only thing different about it
from billions of other Lincoln cents, but it makes it very desirable
among coin collectors.
Reid Goldsborough
>look around the web for introductory web sites...
Here are a few ancients sites I've found particularly useful:
Ancient Roman and Greek Coins FAQ
http://www.math.montana.edu/~umsfwest/numis
The best intro to ancients on the Web
Doug Smith's Coin View
http://www.ancientcoinmarket.com/ds/ds_index.html
Another good place to get up to speed
Brad's Introduction to Ancient Coins
http://www.blarg.net/~brad/coins.htm
A third place to learn the basics, excellent too, from one of our own
QUADRIGA Ancient Coins Glossary of Terms
http://homepages.together.net/~trolhaus/quadgloss.html
AE to TR P
Virtual Catalog of Roman Coins
http://artemis.austinc.edu/acad/cml/rcape/vcrc
Great place to attribute unattributed Romans
FORVM's Ancient Coin Catalog
http://www.ancient-coin-forum.com/Roman/Roman.htm
Another good place to attribute Romans
Wildwinds
http://www.wildwinds.com/coins
An amazing site that lets you see what Greek, Roman, and Byzantine
coins have sold for recently, and their pictures
Bearers of Meaning
http://www.lawrence.edu/dept/art/buerger/intro/contents.html
Interesting essays about ancients
Twelve Caesars Articles
http://www.12caesars.com/Articles/articles.html
Good articles from an ancients dealer
Anka Z
do...@aol.comstock (Tim ) wrote:
> Really?
> Like: Bakersfield, Palm Springs, El Centro, Needles, Twenty-Nine
Palms,
> Barstow, Death Valley ...
No. All of the above are beyond the mountains in desert California.
More like: Santa Barbara, San Diego, Oceanside, Ventura, Coronado,
Manhattan Beach, San Clemente...
Peter T. Davis
"Anka Z" <an...@my-deja.com> wrote
> No. All of the above are beyond the mountains in desert California.
>
> More like: Santa Barbara, San Diego, Oceanside, Ventura, Coronado,
> Manhattan Beach, San Clemente...
You mean smoggy, polluted, overcrowded with ugly row houses and jammed
freeways?
Peter
Anka Z
an LA smog. There just aren't enough cars. Pollution is a fact of
life in -any- city as large as Odessa or as old as Nessebur.
Overcrowding is not a problem in Yalta, once a thriving resort that
catered to millions of party members who went there for R&R, a
privilege lost after the fall of Communism. Instead of ugly row
houses, Yalta has its share of buildings exhibiting that typical Soviet
utilitarianism: concrete block construction devoid of decoration.
Instead of freeways, Odessa is criss-crossed with wide boulevards
jammed with cars. But the topic here was CLIMATE. None of these towns
is smack dab in the middle of a desert as is Needles. All are on the
coast. The moderate climate of the area supports the same type of
vegetation found in southern California...
Now, I haven't been to California in a while. You -do- still have palm
trees, don't you?
Jorg Lueke
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
> In my opinion. As a generality.
>
> Compared to modern coins, especially American coins, ancients have
> more history and better eye appeal, and they can be very rare if
> you're into that (I'm not).
>
> The history goes without saying.
History is what you make of it. Certainly ancient coins are older but
modern coins have quite a history as well. As an example take the
Standing Liberty quarter. In the first 2 years of existence the United
States witnessed a flurry of momentous events. The entry into WWI
occurring just as the women's suffrage and the prohibition movements
were about to score major victories. On top of that one of the worst
outbreaks of disease, influenza, killed millions of people including the
daughter and son-in-law of the Numismatist's editor.
Not that ancient history cannot come up with events to rival this but it
is forever distant, there are often few primary sources and they are out
of reach so we are left hearing the same second and third hand stories
which while certainly interesting are often difficult to relate to. Our
modern history is much more tangible. Just reading the editorials and
letters about suffrage and prohibition shows how much some attitudes
have changed without the people changing much at all.
You can spend lots of enjoyable time
> learning very cool things about any given ancient, from the time
> period and place where it was minted to the life of the king/emperor
> depicted on it. There's also the symbolism, which is typically more
> varied than on modern coins.
>
> Regarding eye appeal, no coins are more beautiful than ancient Greeks,
> which typically are very, even ultra, high relief.
This is hard to argue with ancient Greek coins are my favorites from
ancient times as well. But I think a case can be made for city view
Thalers, early 20th century U.S. coinage and many others.
I can stare
> totally mesmerized at any of a dozen Greeks I've picked up over the
> past several months. In a state of revery. Amazed at the sheer
> physical beauty of these artifacts you can hold between your fingers.
>
> I'm not exactly sure why more Americans aren't into ancients, though I
> have a few ideas. Ancients are more popular in Europe, I'm told, no
> doubt because that's one place they're dug up, but also because
> Europeans are more worldly, in general, than Americans. Too many
> Americans think the world starts and ends in the good old U. S. of A.
> Not trolling here -- just an opinion, again.
The heart is with the home. I think it is natural for person's to show
more interest in their homeland. Do European's collect more U.S.
coinage than Americans collect ancients?
>
> Maybe ancients also scare away some collectors because they're not as
> neat and orderly as modern coins. They don't present themselves in a
> series that begins in one year, clearly marked on the coin, and ends
> in another. Instead of being produced at two or three mints, a single
> issue, an Alexander for instance, may have been produced at any of 25.
> They can be challenge even to attribute. You really do have to read
> the book, or at least the Web, before you buy the coin.
>
> Ancients aren't as amenable to the anal-retentive type of collector as
> moderns. But you can still set up goals for yourself and meet them.
> Right now I'm creating design set of Alexander the Great coins, minted
> during his reign, in his name after his death, or depicting him after
> his death. I won't be able to obtain them all -- there are some hugely
> rare and expensive coins here. But I'll be able to create a
> representative set in grade levels from aVF (that's almost very fine)
> to gEF (good Extra Fine or the equivalent of an AU American coin) in
> bronze, silver, and gold.
>
> Roman coins are easier to collect and amazingly affordable given their
> age. Some people focus on a single emperor, others try to collect one
> coin of as many emperors as they can. You can buy fourth-century
> bronzes for under $5 that are in surprisingly good shape. I've created
> a little set of bronzes of the Constantine family -- Constantine the
> Great and his three sons. Each has a fascinating story, starting with
> Dad, who as the first Roman emperor to embrace Christianity was more
> responsible for spreading it than anyone. Almost. His sons weren't
> very Christian though. Constantine II was killed invading Constans'
> territory. Fascinating stuff...
>
> --
>
> Draped Busts: http://www.draped-busts.com
--
"Collectors, I sometimes think, are guided too much by demand and are
faddists.
They are sheep-like in their inclination to follow the multitude"
- Thomas L. Elder The Numismatist March 1915
R&V Childers
collector, be it of coins, paintings, cars or old hats, collects for
his/her own reasons. As long as we (read that as all of us who collect
because of some unknown cosmic quirk in our natures) are content with
what we collect and why we do it, who am I to judge. Unless it
interferes with MY collecting, of course, then that is a different
matter!!
Bob C.
R&V Childers
safe bet to also say the founding fathers collected ancients because
there WEREN"T any american coins to collect, otherwise they probably
would have done so! As for american collectors lack of intelligence to
collect ancients, well, I suppose I could take offense at the statement
and make an attempt at a cutting reply, but that would only draw more
attention to something that doesen't rate or deserve it and we are big
enough to overlook a statement like that. Finally, as to sliding down
hill, I suppose as the only superpower left on the block and with the
economic, monetary, scientific and political "gold standard" measured
against by the rest of the world, we are big enough to overlook that
statement as well. People collect coins for many different reasons. Be
it for beauty, history, rarity, as an investment or, in some cases, just
to impress others (or themselves), as long as a person collects what HE
wants to collect, whatever the reason, I say more power to him. Just try
not to be too judgemental of MY reasons.
Bob C.
http://vchilder.home.netcom.com
Reid Goldsborough
<vchi...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>As I said, I tend to agree on the WHAT if not on the WHY.
I still have no idea what you're saying. I pointed out why I thought
most Americans collect U.S. coins rather than ancients, and you said
you disagreed, but then you stated the same reason I did. Though I
wouldn't say one of the reasons was an unknown cosmic quirk in our
natures! Anyway, ancients are cool, I think we agree on that. Though
there is some risk here. I'll start another thread on this to see if
there's any consensus on this.
Reid Goldsborough
<jlu...@nospam.mediaone.net> wrote:
>Nice post, hope you don't mind if I intersperse a few comments.
Thanks. Nope, don't mind at all. Discussion and debate about this is
fun.
>But I think a case can be made for city view
>Thalers, early 20th century U.S. coinage and many others.
I agree with you a hundred percent about early 20th century U.S.
coins. The Golden Age...
>The heart is with the home. I think it is natural for person's to show
>more interest in their homeland. Do European's collect more U.S.
>coinage than Americans collect ancients?
I disagree, in part. To the British ancient Greece is no more homeland
than to Americans. Ancient Greece is both of our intellectual and
artistic heritage. With ancient Rome, there is a difference, in that
the Romans occupied the southern part of England and Roman coins are
unearthed in England.
I still think that, though there are many reasons as people have
pointed out, the main reason Americans aren't more into ancients is
our insularity.
Reid Goldsborough
>Don't forget "Handbook of Ancient Greek and
>Roman Coins" by Zander Klawans.
Good book, you're right. This is the best starter book about ancient
coins, and was my first as well. Though because, as you point out,
it's a hodgepodge, it's ultimately unsatisfying. But it is a very good
way to get an idea of the types of ancients people most commonly
collect.
I'd also again recommend to others your Web site:
http://www.blarg.net/~brad/coins.htm
Great job. I especially like the section on grading, though the other
sections are good too. (How about more coin pics? I personally can't
get enough of these.)
David Ryan
Me too. But he needs to pick up an unc and put it up :)
--
Sig formerly known as the Millennium Bug
R&V Childers
population, than europeans. I DISAGREE with your reasons why. Your
statements (possibly unintentional) came across as very elitist and
snobbish in that only someone of superior intellect has the ability to
collect or appreciate ancients. You implied european collectors are
somehow better endowed with this ability while american collectors are
generally lacking in that area, ergo, we (americans) collect only modern
coins, and american coins in particular, because that is all we can
intellectually comprehend.
jlu...@my-deja.com
more Roman than Greek coins as opposed to Greeks or Bulgarians :-)
In article <4tot6tsqe0m6i5ijn...@4ax.com>,
olymf...@my-deja.com
Troll begone.
Reid Goldsborough
I hate this "you said this, no I said that" crap. But here goes. I
said or implied no such thing. It has nothing to do with intellect. It
has a lot to do with worldliness and exposure. Europeans are more
worldly because, quite simply, they're exposed to more of the world.
They deal with people from other countries like we deal with people
from other states. The worldliness of Europeans compared with
Americans, the lack of Americans' insularity, is the key reason, in my
view, for Europeans' greater interest in collecting ancient coins.
There are other reasons that ancients are more popular in Europe, of
course, several of which I mentioned and several others of which other
people here mentioned.
The mind does have a role here, but not in separating Americans from
Europeans. I'd say you can't effectively collect ancients without
being intellectually curious. This doesn't relate to intellect per se.
You don't have to be an Einstein to collect ancients. You probably do
need to know how to read and enjoy it. You can't just go through your
pocket change and stick coins in a Whitman folder. But regarding
intellectual curiosity or reading ability or whatever, I don't believe
there's any difference between Americans and Europeans.
I'm glad you like ancients too.
Reid Goldsborough
>Troll begone.
There's an interesting, stimulating addition to the discussion, and
look, what a surprise, from someone with a Deja.com account.
Stujoe
thusly...
Wow, I didn't get that from anything Reid said at all.
--
SJ Miller
R&V Childers
>Europeans are more worldly, in general, than Americans.
>The worldliness of Europeans compared with Americans... is the key reason, in my view, for Europeans' greater interest in collecting ancient coins.
>Too many Americans think the world starts and ends in the good old U. S.of A.
>Ancients aren't as amenable to the anal-retentive type of collector as
moderns.
>You don't have the obsessive-compulsive interest in the tiniest differences in grade and in the tiniest differences in die variety, as you do with U.S. coins.
Not very flattering to american collectors I'd say, so you might
understand if I somehow got the wrong impression! BTW, as I said before,
I agree that fewer americans collect ancient coins as a group than
europeans. I also agree that we (americans) don't have as much personal
contact with foreign cultures in general. However, I don't think it has
to do with us being anal-retentive, obsessive-compulsive or self
centered. The US is a big country and the only really "foreign" culture
in North America is Mexico. In fact, excluding French Canadians and
Brazil, the western hemisphere is basically divided into english
speaking north and spanish south. However, being the melting pot we are,
you can find a Little Italy, China Town, latin barrio or middle eastern
enclave in almost any city. Include the exposure from several hundred
cable channels of news (US & world), educational programs, foreign
programming and others plus thousands of newspapers and magazines and I
think we get pretty good exposure to the cultures of the world. People
usually collect not only what interests them, but what is available. In
america, it tends to be american coins from american history and
culture. In Europe, it's the coins (both modern AND ancient) that
reflect european culture that are sought after. There is obvious
crossover, particularly in america (believe it or not) with it's many
cultural ties to Europe. I wonder what the actual ratio of europeans
that collect american coins is compared to americans who collect
ancients/european coins? Not that it matters, but it does make me
curious as to who's interests lie where. Anyway, yes, I like ancients
and think they are some of the most attractive coins ever made. Of
course beauty is in the eye of the beholder and there are any number of
"modern" coins I find just as attractive as any ancient. I have Greek,
Roman, early Chinese (1,500 BC), Egyptian and middle eastern
coins/tokens from 1,700 BC on through the byzantine era, middle ages,
rennaissance and into the "modern" era. I have as many foreign coins in
my collection as american, possibly more. I will admit though, that for
the periods covered, I have more "modern" US coins than
foreign/ancients. In other words, I have collected about as much from
the last four centuries (US/colonial coinage) as from the previous four
millennia. But, I still say to each collector his own, according to
their own taste and ability. I also say it's about time to end this
thread!!
Ed Eubanks 98-IP
different....already identified coins.....they are really nice and fascinating
to look at.....my wife really likes them too...even though she knew they were
for me....%) You might start off with a couple of those to see what you
think....personally....I feel another addiction coming on......LOL
Ed
Stujoe said.....
Stujoe
I may have missed a previous reference to those 5 coins. Did you get
them from a dealer or off of Ebay? I almost bought a couple at a coin
show several months ago but was not familiar enough to even know what I
was getting and they were not identified at all.
--
SJ Miller
In article <20010125175102...@ng-bk1.aol.com>,
anac...@aol.coma spoke thusly...
Reid Goldsborough
<stu...@NONADASPAMprodigy.net> wrote:
>I almost bought a couple at a coin
>show several months ago but was not familiar enough to even know what I
>was getting and they were not identified at all.
Here's an easy, fun, inexpensive, and risk-free way to get into
ancients. At the next coin show you go to, look for a dealer selling
unattributed ancients. They usually have them in a bowl of some kind,
and they usually cost under $5 each, maybe even only $3. They're all
authentic as it doesn't pay to counterfeit coins that sell so
inexpensively. Cherrypick. Don't buy unless you can make out the image
on the obverse and at least some of the legend. When you get home,
attribute them using the Web sites I mentioned earlier. In all
likelihood you'll have wound up with one or more fourth-century Roman
bronzes, often Constantinians, minted during the great, drawn-out
meltdown of the Roman Empire. Then go the Brittanica.com and read
about the emperor in charge at the time, who's typically depicted on
the obverse.
Ed Eubanks 98-IP
them from a dealer or off of Ebay? I almost bought a couple at a coin
show several months ago but was not familiar enough to even know what I
was getting and they were not identified at all.
--
SJ Miller >>
I don't remember the post exactly....or even the thread....but I bought them
from John Jencek at....
http://www.ancient-coins.com/sale/
It was really a good deal...I bought the five cheap ones....but I was really
impressed with the detail on these coins and the coin flips have a little
identification/information card with them. I read Reid's reply to this post
and I would agree with him....if I had that opportunity...but since I
don't....this worked very well for me. I just wanted a few to see if I would
be interested in collecting them....I think I will probably make a couple more
purchases as funds allow...after I am over my current affliction.....%)
Ed
Mike Echo Mike
> History is what you make of it. ...The entry into WWI occurring just
as the women's suffrage and the prohibition movements were about to
score major victories. On top of that one of the worst outbreaks of
disease, influenza, killed millions of people including the daughter
and son-in-law of the Numismatist's editor.
To be sure, there is real history to the times. I often get queries
from people who find Mercury Dimes because they find my articles when
they do a Web search. In addition, I have a stock reply about other
facets of history behind the coin. That's all well and good. But I
have to agree with what I perceive as Reid's sentiment: We numismatists
might care about the history, but the average collector does not.
When you sell your MS-62 SLQ, all that counts is whether the buyer
thinks it can be resubmitted to come back 63 or is this a poor 62
without enough head that the next buyer will take for MS-61 at best?
In American numismatics all that counts is Grade and Price or Price and
Grade. History is mostly irrelevant to most collectors. Again, as I
said earlier, with ancients (or early World in general) we care that
the man (or woman) who struck this later struck that. With US Coins no
one assembles a set that shows the political career of Andrew Jackson
or Thomas Jefferson. U.S. Grant and Dwight Eisenhower did not issue
coins to pay their troops, but Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar
did.
With American patriots there is some yearning for the good old days of
honest money and family farms before the income tax and Federal
Reserve. However, this more a SENTIMENT than a desire to explore
history.
Personally, I agree with Jorge 100%. For me, the attraction even in US
Coins is the History. However, Reid is right that for the average
collector, most people who collect ancients are drawn to history
whereas most people who collect US are drawn to something else.
--
We lived in fear of the mountains of Spain
over which we had to fly, and in awe of our elders.
-- Antoine de Saint Exupery
Mike Echo Mike
distance America from British and European Feudalism, the Founders of
our Republic looked to Rome and Greece as their direct forebears."
And Jorge Lueke wote: "To the British ancient Greece is no more home
land than to Americans. Ancient Greece is both of our intellectual and
artistic heritage. With ancient Rome, there is a difference, in that
the Romans occupied the southern part of England and Roman coins are
unearthed in England."
Right. But Americans are immigrants. American coins from before 1910
are not part of any "homeland" for me. In fact, my ancestors came from
diverse places even before my grandparents came here from places we
convenients (and incorrectly) call "Italy" and "Hungary." I have some
interest in some aspects of the histories of those places, but only in
the widest context. In point of fact, I collected coins of the
Malcontents Revolt, more for the revolutionary aspects than any sense
of Magyarosity. Similarly, the coins of Sicily and Southern Italy are
for me GREEK coins, not "italian" and I collected them for their
Hellenism, not their italicism. For all of that, the coins and paper
money and stock certificate and tokens and checks and chits and scrip
that interest me most are AMERICAN because this is the country, the
people, the traditions and values that I CHOSE to adopt. I could live
anywhere on Earth. I choose to be an American.
Margaret Thatcher once gave a little talk about how being a "self
selected people" made America so great. We were not simply born here.
So, by the same logic, Americans who UNDERSTAND their country often
collect Ancient coins. It was quipped here that John Quincy Adams and
the other colonial leaders collected Classical coins becuase there were
no American coins to collect. Funny and true --- but aside from that,
they could have collected anything or nothing. They CHOSE to acquire
Roman and Greek coins because that was the Tradition they sought to re-
establish and maintain.
---
Anka Z
Mike Echo Mike <mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
> I have a stock reply about other facets of history behind the coin. <
"It's not the coin..."
Reid Goldsborough
<mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>U.S. Grant and Dwight Eisenhower did not issue
>coins to pay their troops, but Alexander the Great and Julius Caesar
>did.
Related to the above: Coins made possible the conquests of Alexander
the Great. He wouldn't have accomplished what he did without his
imperial coinage -- his gold staters and silver tetradrachms and
drachms.
When he invaded, Alexander confiscated the Fort Knox of his vanquished
foes. He then melted down the gold and silver and minted millions of
coins, which he used to pay his soldiers, who for the most part were
mercenaries and typically not Macedonians either. Many Celts from
central Europe -- blood ancestors of many of us -- fought for
Alexander for the coins he gave them. These coins made it back to Gaul
and so on, changed the face of local coinage, and ultimately led to
the design styles of modern coins.
Alexander III was the world's first great imperialist, spreading
culture and death, coins and DNA.
Reid Goldsborough
<mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>And Jorge Lueke wote: "To the British ancient Greece is no more home
>land than to Americans. Ancient Greece is both of our intellectual and
>artistic heritage. With ancient Rome, there is a difference, in that
>the Romans occupied the southern part of England and Roman coins are
>unearthed in England."
Actually, I wrote this. No biggie.
>It was quipped here that John Quincy Adams and
>the other colonial leaders collected Classical coins becuase there were
>no American coins to collect. Funny and true --- but aside from that,
>they could have collected anything or nothing. They CHOSE to acquire
>Roman and Greek coins because that was the Tradition they sought to re-
>establish and maintain.
The heritage aspect is fascinating too. Ancient Greece and Rome are in
fact our primary cultural, intellectual, artistic, and political
heritage. Much of what we are and what we have started there,
including coins.
J. Stone
Many of the privately issued banknotes in the pre civil war "free banking
era"
had vignettes of ancient Rome and Greece. Rulers, statues, gods, temples
etc.
The ideals and images of ancient Greece and Rome were known by the
American public of that day.
Mike Echo Mike
He knew that for his empire to last, he would have to merge the
conquered peoples with his own peoples. So, he encouraged the Greeks
to settle down and take wives. Even today, Syria puts Hellenic symbols
on its paper money and I know people from Syria who are (Christian)
ethnic Greeks, even after all this time... This is in direct contrast
to the slaughter of the Native Americans by the European invaders of
America who then took their land and settled it, which is pretty much
the ROMAN mode of colonization.
Alexander's teacher was ARISTOTLE, easily one of the greatest thinkers
of all time, competitive with Newton, 2000 years later. How much of
Aristotle actually stayed with Alexander is arguable, perhaps, but it
is clear that Alexander was more than just another guy with an army
moving into a political vacuum. The point is, that if the coins of
Alexander are desirable, then, to me, the coins of Aristotle (and
Diogenes) are as well.
Of Alexander's generals, only Ptolemy (perhaps actually his son Ptolemy
II) seemed to understand the essence of Hellenism. Founding the Library
of Alexandria was a flash of insight, thinking outside the box, while
the heirs fought for the throne of Macedonia. IN fact, one reason that
we have so little of Aristotle is that some of the heirs, BURIED the
library left to Theophrastus and let worms eat the books, rather than
to surrender it to their political enemies. So, who controlled the
POLITICAL remains was far less lasting thant who controlled the
INTELLECTUAL legacy, which, to me, is why the coins of Ptolemy are more
desirable than those of Lysimachus.
Reid Goldsborough
<mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>So, who controlled the
>POLITICAL remains was far less lasting thant who controlled the
>INTELLECTUAL legacy, which, to me, is why the coins of Ptolemy are more
>desirable than those of Lysimachus.
Interesting stuff ... I still like the Lysimachus portrait of
Alexander on his coins. It's odd that Alexander, one of the greatest
egotists of all time, even to the point of believing he was descended
from the gods, never put his portrait on his coins.
That task would wait for his successors in the three power centers
that emerged after his death in 323 BC -- Lysimachus in Thrace,
Seleukos I in Syria, and Ptolemy I in Egypt. I have a Lysimachus
tetradrachm (Alexander adorned with the horn of Ammon), am awaiting
the delivery of a Ptolemy I tetradrachm (Alexander adorned with horn
of Ammon and an elephant skin headdress), and am still looking for a
Seleukos tetradrachm (Alexander adorned with a panther-skin helmet and
bull's horns).
These three rulers, however, soon put their own portraits on their
coinage, becoming, I believe, the first to do so (correct me if I'm
wrong here). In Egypt, Ptolemy's portrait would remain on coins for
three centuries.
It's also interesting that, among ancient peoples, Herakles (Hercules
if you speak Roman) on the obverse of the traditional Alexander-style
coinage was seen as synonymous with Alexander himself. Because of
Alexander's legendary status in ancient times, rulers in disparate
lands throughout Europe, North Africa, and Asia minted coins of this
type, even in his name, for two centuries after his death.
Reid Goldsborough
wrote:
>Many of the privately issued banknotes in the pre civil war "free banking
>era"
>had vignettes of ancient Rome and Greece. Rulers, statues, gods, temples
>etc.
>
>The ideals and images of ancient Greece and Rome were known by the
>American public of that day.
Yep. Classicism played a much bigger role in American society of the
past than today. How many people study Latin in school these days?
Jorg Lueke
Reid Goldsborough wrote:
> On Fri, 26 Jan 2001 14:25:37 GMT, Mike Echo Mike
> <mikeec...@my-deja.com> wrote:
>
>
>> And Jorge Lueke wote: "To the British ancient Greece is no more home
>> land than to Americans. Ancient Greece is both of our intellectual and
>> artistic heritage. With ancient Rome, there is a difference, in that
>> the Romans occupied the southern part of England and Roman coins are
>> unearthed in England."
>
>
> Actually, I wrote this. No biggie.
I see you've already claimed your quote.
>
>
>> It was quipped here that John Quincy Adams and
>> the other colonial leaders collected Classical coins becuase there were
>> no American coins to collect. Funny and true --- but aside from that,
>> they could have collected anything or nothing. They CHOSE to acquire
>> Roman and Greek coins because that was the Tradition they sought to re-
>> establish and maintain.
>
>
> The heritage aspect is fascinating too. Ancient Greece and Rome are in
> fact our primary cultural, intellectual, artistic, and political
> heritage. Much of what we are and what we have started there,
> including coins.
>
>
Ancient Greece and Rome are certainly that for much of European culture.
It will be interesting to see how the changing demographics will affect
the United States in the next fifty years and what impact the changing
cultural make-up will have on our coinage designs. Perhaps we will
return to the allegorical designs which represent what we have in common
instead of past rulers with which the majority of the population will no
longer identify.
--
>
> Draped Busts: http://www.draped-busts.com
--
"Here, crying aloud, are the wages you withheld from the farm hands who
harvested your fields.
The cries of the harvesters have reached the ears of the Lord of Hosts.
You lived in wanton luxury on the earth; you fattened yourselves for the
day of the slaughter."
James 5:4-5
Stujoe
anac...@aol.coma spoke thusly...
> I don't remember the post exactly....or even the thread....but I bought them
> from John Jencek at....
>
> http://www.ancient-coins.com/sale/
>
> It was really a good deal...I bought the five cheap ones....but I was really
> impressed with the detail on these coins and the coin flips have a little
> identification/information card with them. I read Reid's reply to this post
> and I would agree with him....if I had that opportunity...but since I
> don't....this worked very well for me. I just wanted a few to see if I would
> be interested in collecting them....I think I will probably make a couple more
> purchases as funds allow...after I am over my current affliction.....%)
Thanks for the link Ed. I have emailed them about the same lot. I figure
at that price they will provide me some real life examples while I do
some looking on the web and other places for some more info. Also,
perfect to add to the "show and tell" set.
--
SJ Miller