Paypal is offering free cards and other merchandise - FREE!
Jeff Novell
seller does not use "delivery confirmation" or certified mail.
In October, 2001, I sold an old Ralph Lauren shirt which fell out of
style for $5 plus $3.55 priority mail. The payment options were $3.55
priority mail, $5 for insurance. If the buyer paid $3.55, the seller
(me) disclaims all liability for receipt of good. I do this because
I've been burnt numerous times by "lost in the mail packages". The
buyer sent me payment of $8.55 through paypal.
http://cgi.ebay.com/aw-cgi/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=1650605086
I sent the item to the buyer on 11/6/01. Yeah, I was 2 weeks behind.
I was incredibly busy. In any event, during those two weeks the buyer
went ahead and filed a claim with Paypal. We exchanged the obligatory
negative feedback, and in his response, he noted that the package was
sent to the wrong address on 11/6 -- inferring that he received the
package. I sent the address used on Paypal -- in any event, I figured
that he had the shirt. I never heard anything again from this
jabroni.
Today, I received this:
To: jno...@tampabay.rr.com
Subject: Resolution of Buyer Complaint Case #---
Dear Jeff,
Recently, PayPal received a complaint from a user regarding
merchandise not received or received not-as-described. The
details of this transaction are as follows:
Case ID: ---
Transaction Date: 10/22/01
Transaction Amount: $8.55
Buyer's Email: Mailfraud
The investigation into the matter is now complete and we regret
to inform you that the transaction has been reversed in accordance
with PayPal's Seller Protection Policy and the PayPal Terms of Use,
Section IV, Paragraph 3.
PayPal investigates claims of fraudulent buyers and transactions in
order to protect the integrity of our payments network.
Unfortunately, you had to bear the cost of fraud in this instance,
but there are steps you can take to prevent becoming victimized by
fraud in the future. To protect yourself please be sure to follow
the steps outlined in our Seller Protection Policy
To learn more about PayPal's Seller Protection Policy, go to:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/protections-outside
To view the PayPal Terms of Use, go to:
http://www.paypal.com/cgi-bin/webscr?cmd=p/gen/terms-outside
Sincerely,
Cynthia
Complaint Resolution Department
---
Ironically, if you go to the terms of use, Section IV Paragraph III
has nothing to do with this issue.
In any event, I spoke with some neophyte at Paypal who was giving me
canned responses and who I was clearly tying in knots. It's nice to
be able to know how to argue well. Her "mentor" pulled her away from
the phone call, to give her advice how to handle me. I immediately
asked to speak with the Mentor, and within a second, Richard was on
the phone with me. I was given the speech tha tPaypal was protecting
their buyers and without delivery confirmation, the funds would be
withdrawn from my account and refunded. I argued the fact that the
buyer, by virtue of purchasing the items in my auction and paying for
regular shipment released me of any liability. HE understood this
fact, but held fast to his protection of the buyer. THen he went on
to say that Paypal protects the seller by requiring a delivery
confirmation to prevent buyers from doing this. <Whatever>.
I asked about any type of investigation. They asked me, in the
investigation, if I had delivery confirmation. Inoted that I did not,
copying the auction type disclaiming liability. They did not
reconfirm with the buyer as to whether or not he has received a refund
or the goods.
Now, I'm not concerned about eight and a half dollars. I'm concerned
with the policies behind Paypal. So, I posed the question that really
bothered me. I asked, "if I bought an item for $500, and the seller
did not insure or delivery confirm the item, sending it regular
mail... and I claim that I did not get it, whether or not I actually
did, would I be able to file a claim and get my money back, assuming
the seller cannot show proof of delivery, since it does not exist?"
He stated, flat out, yes, I would get my money back. And the seller
would be totally screwed.
So, basically, unless you're going to ship something with a return
receipt or a UPS tracking number, there's no point to use paypal
because it is obvious that they will provide a refund to any seller at
any time.
I suppose that I now have a mail fraud case against this guy, but I'm
not realistically going to do anything for $8.55.
STAY AWAY FROM PAYPAL.
Bruce Moreland
too long to pay, but you admit in here that you didn't ship the item for two
weeks because you were too busy.
You made two significant mistakes here:
1) You didn't ship the item in a timely fashion. If you know you are going
to be too busy to manage your auctions, you shouldn't run any. Two weeks
without mailing the thing is atrocious.
2) You didn't insure an item that you weren't willing to write off.
Devising a policy of "pay the insurance or don't complain about lost
packages" leads to situations precisely like this one.
This buyer had 121 positives and no negatives before he encountered you. If
you had shipped him his shirt within a day of when he paid you, the
transaction would have probably ended happily for both parties.
If I am misunderstanding any of this, please let me know.
bruce
"Jeff Novell" <jnovel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7mql1uglt0prvi7n8...@4ax.com...
Jeff Novell
On Sat, 15 Dec 2001 00:38:56 -0800, "Bruce Moreland"
<bru...@seanet.com> wrote:
IrishGator
same option to reverse a sale if you are not satisfied?
"Jeff Novell" <jnovel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sqkm1u829nvqe01bu...@4ax.com...
BlackJet76
Well your the lawyer Jeff, you know how to fix this situation better than
anyone else.
Pain in the Mosey
I had the same thing happen on a card I sent out late. She filed a "fraud" and
the next day obviously got the card because she left positive feedback!
Paypal decided fo her, gave her the money back (about $20) and she won't return
my emails. Paypal refuses to reopen, examine or look at the case.
I no longer use paypal.
John Mosey |....X......|..........| Brewers-o-meter "Fire Selig"
"I'd like to know, since they've been audited three different ways, what
information are you looking for?" -- Bud Selig giving the runaround to Congress
on why he won't give out more detailed non-summary records.
Bruce Moreland
and PayPal was alright with that.
I was indicating that you could have avoided the whole problem by being a
better seller.
And it's not clear whether PayPal did the "wrong" thing. On the one side,
we have a buyer with clean feedback, claiming that he paid on time, but
never received his item, despite numerous emails. On the other side, we
have a seller with some rough feedback, who claims that the buyer paid him
late, and that he sent the item, but only after the buyer was frustrated
enough to leave a negative. Do you think that PayPal can't check to see who
is telling the truth about when payment was sent? And if they determine, as
you imply in your original post, that you were not telling the truth in your
negative feedback, why do you expect them to believe that you aren't lying
about sending the item?
If they deny the chargeback, what do you expect them to say: "We determined
that the seller was lying about when he sent payment, but he says he sent
the item, so he must have."
If the buyer got the item and still did a chargeback, I can't approve of
that, but $8 doesn't begin to cover the amount of hell he must have gone
through over this.
bruce
"Jeff Novell" <jnovel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:sqkm1u829nvqe01bu...@4ax.com...
Screwed By jeffmn
and call ME a liar in that feedback when you know darn well that you
were paid by paypal the same day that auction ended asshole. You're the
liar, you admitted it earlier in this message board. If I had looked at
your shitty feedback before making my bid I would have known better you
piece of trash. Don't quit your day-job fuckhead. Paypal protects
people like me from people like you. Thanks to the guy who alerted me of
this message.
The Zone Sportscards
Andy K
and Stars FB Autographs to a guy about 10 months ago. He sent me the money
by PayPal the same day. Unfortunately, at the time, I was relying on PayPal
to email me when I received payments. I never received one, so I didn't
know to send the cards out. About a week later, I logged onto my PayPal
account and noticed that I had way too much money in my account. I checked
my history and realized what the problem was, so I got the cards ready and
mailed them the next day (insured). A day later, I received a notice from
PayPal stating that the guy hadn't received his cards and they were going to
review the case. A few days later, the guy emailed me and told me that he
received the cards and everything was in good order. He left me positive
feedback so I figured everything was okay. A month or so later, I was doing
a little cleaning and threw out my insurance receipt for his order. Figured
I didn't need it since it was a done deal. Well, 3 months later, out of the
blue, PayPal emails me and states that they are removing the $265 from my
account (and applying it back to the buyers credit card)because the buyer
never emailed them back to settle the claim. I called their 800 number and
spoke with a rep that was no help to me whatsoever. She said that the fact
that the guy left me positive feedbacks didn't prove anything. She also
said that even if I had an insurance receipt (and return signature from him)
it wouldn't help me out. I had to send it USPS registered mail (or
something like that, it's about $12 minimum) and be able to provide her with
the tracking number. She said a UPS tracking number wouldn't work either,
only registered mail (not that I used UPS, just found it interesting). She
was able to provide a phone number for the guy (since his email address no
longer worked and his account was very inactive on eBay (with an invalid
email address -- hasn't bought or sold anything now for 9 months). The
phone number didn't work and mail came back undelivered. PayPal claims that
they protect you from chargebacks, but if the only way you have that
protection is using registered mail, then that protection only applies to
about 2% of PayPal's total transactions.
I have had some other minor (under $10) deals get taken from my account and
it's usually for the same reason. A guy files a claim after about 7 to 10
days because he hasn't received his merchandise (not always my fault). He
receives his merchandise and leaves a positive (or, at least, emails me to
tell me he received it). He thinks it's settled. About a month later, the
money is taken from my account (actually it is put in limbo for close to a
month). I then have to email them and have them resend the money (and they
usually do after they contact PayPal and receive a reply - sometimes 3 to 4
weeks). I just wish PayPal had a better system in place. A buyer should be
able to file a complaint and then have to follow up in a couple of weeks to
receive a refund. The way it is now, they file a complaint and unless they
email PayPal and state that they've received their order they will get a
refund (and most don't even realize they are supposed to).
Yes, I still use PayPal, it's just too damn convenient (and the good
experiences far outweigh the bad). But it still pisses me off from time to
time.
-- Andy
"Jeff Novell" <jnovel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7mql1uglt0prvi7n8...@4ax.com...
Bruce Moreland
of stuff going on in the Beckett board, too.
bruce
"The Zone Sportscards" <dr...@zonesportscards.com> wrote in message
news:jbho1ucjq8hhtljeu...@4ax.com...
Bruce Moreland
"Andy K" <card...@go.com> wrote in message
news:hYXS7.2179$T03.37...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Some goofus tried this on me, but I had the USPS blue tag (insurance > $50)
and they denied his chargeback. Even so it was incredibly painful and
involved many phone calls.
This was a year ago. I'm not sure this still works with blue tags.
Registered mail is less than $12, but you typically do some insurance and
send the thing in a heavy box, so that's what it ends up being in most
cases.
bruce
FREE SHIPPING
Plus, if you have a high PayPal balance and it disappears, how can you prove
that the amount actually existed at one time. Even if you have a file saved
with the balance depicted, it's your word against theirs.
<So, basically, unless you're going to ship something with a return
receipt or a UPS tracking number, there's no point to use paypal
because it is obvious that they will provide a refund to any seller at
any time.
I suppose that I now have a mail fraud case against this guy, but I'm
not realistically going to do anything for $8.55.
STAY AWAY FROM PAYPAL.
"Jeff Novell" <jnovel...@tampabay.rr.com> wrote in message
news:7mql1uglt0prvi7n8...@4ax.com...
FREE SHIPPING
"IrishGator" <irishg...@home.com> wrote in message
news:gpKS7.309233$5A3.11...@news1.rdc2.pa.home.com...
FREE SHIPPING
and PayPal was alright with that.
What about the good sellers that gets the shaft from fraudulent chargebacks?
No recourse.
"Bruce Moreland" <bru...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:u1n5qh8...@corp.supernews.com...
FREE SHIPPING
circumstances. If the card company charges back, then PayPal sucks it out
of the sellers account AUTOMATICALLY!
<And it's not clear whether PayPal did the "wrong" thing. On the one side,
we have a buyer with clean feedback, claiming that he paid on time, but
never received his item, despite numerous emails. On the other side, we
have a seller with some rough feedback, who claims that the buyer paid him
late, and that he sent the item, but only after the buyer was frustrated
enough to leave a negative. Do you think that PayPal can't check to see who
is telling the truth about when payment was sent?
"Bruce Moreland" <bru...@seanet.com> wrote in message
news:u1n5qh8...@corp.supernews.com...
FREE SHIPPING
merchandise and then calls their credit card company to say that they are
unhappy with the quality, or anything else to do with the merchandise.
Their card company WILL chargeback and you WILL have the money pulled from
your account. Take that to the bank, all you sellers out there!
<PayPal claims that
they protect you from chargebacks, but if the only way you have that
protection is using registered mail, then that protection only applies to
about 2% of PayPal's total transactions.
"Andy K" <card...@go.com> wrote in message
news:hYXS7.2179$T03.37...@newssvr15.news.prodigy.com...
Bruce Moreland
"FREE SHIPPING" <kingdia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:5DgT7.8444$O7.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
> They don't check Bruce. The buyer gets the nod even under fraudulent
> circumstances. If the card company charges back, then PayPal sucks it out
> of the sellers account AUTOMATICALLY!
I'll tell my story again.
I bought a card. It was expensive. I paid via PayPal. The card sucked, I
got permission to send it back, I sent it back. I waited a few weeks to get
my money back, then started to get worried and pester the guy, and after
some significant threats he paid me back, also via PayPal.
A month later I get email from PayPal saying they had a chargeback because I
hadn't sent my "buyer" his merchandise, and giving me a phone number to
call.
This was a weird situation, since I was the buyer, but the seller was the
one doing the chargeback, since he was doing the chargeback on his refund to
me. This led to a huge amount of confusion.
I sent PayPal the email where the seller admitting having received the card.
I sent them a copy of the insurance receipt.
After a small amount of hell they denied his chargeback and I got my money
back.
I called the various police departments at various points during this and
they would do nothing, claiming that it was a civil matter, since I had at
some point received the merchandise. A very interesting and sticky
situation.
Is this a case of the buyer getting the nod? Maybe since I was the initial
buyer, but if you argue that I was the seller, since I'm the one who had the
chargeback applied to me, it's a case where the seller won.
bruce
Bruce Moreland
whole world grinds to a halt.
When you get a chargeback, it shows up on your account.
bruce
"FREE SHIPPING" <kingdia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:8ygT7.8426$O7.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
LifeSourceRec
received, I transfer it to my bank acct. If customer isn't satified, I just
send them a money order.
"FREE SHIPPING" <kingdia...@yahoo.com> wrote in message
news:6BgT7.8437$O7.9...@newsread2.prod.itd.earthlink.net...
nataliema...@gmail.com
http://www.starcomsystems.com/products/online/