WATER KNOT VS DOUBLE FISHERMANS
Ryan Lamb
not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
Ryan (UCSB)
--
**************************************
Ryan: ul...@mcl.ucsb.edu
Kristian Martinsen
> In a recent book I was reading it said that the WATER KNOT should
> not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
> It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
> my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
> is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
From books i have read and postings here on this newsgroup, the water knot
(I assume = threaded overhand? i.e you knot an ovehand on one end and thread
the other end into this?) *can* untie in certain occations.
I use double fiherman for all my slings, both tubular webbing and the 9mm
rope on my hexes.
Kristian.
Jeffrey E. Papen
would work on regular ropes too. There are so many other great/bomber knots
out there that I have never felt the need to use the water knot on ropes.
I think that the double fisherman's is a terrific knot for tying two ropes
together, especially when they are different sizes. The only problem with
the double fisherman's is that it is a bitch to untie after being weighted.
With this in mind, I tie a square knot in the two ropes, and then sinch the
double fisherman's nice and close. This gives me the slack I need to get the
ropes untied.
Climb Safe,
- Jeffrey
Lord grant me the serenity to accept the things I can not change,
the courage to change the things that I can,
and the wisdom to hide the bodies of those people I had to kill
because they pissed me off.
Jeffrey Papen
JPa...@asucla.ucla.edu
Department of Computer Science, UCLA
ange...@news.delphi.com
The water knot is the knot of choice for 1" tubular webbing, and when
executed properly will not slip or become untied:
1. The knot must be properly dressed and set. Poorly dressed water
knots often slip.
2. The two free ends of the webbing should extend at least 6 inches
beyond the knot.
3. The knot should be backed up by tying an overhand on both sides of the
knot. Tie the overhand around the loop part of the webbing, using
the free end. Both overhands should be snug up against the water knot,
not several inches away. Although it is highly unlikely that a
properly dressed and set water knot would slip or become untied,
backing the knot up in this way ensures that the free end cannot work
its way into and through the knot.
Angela Morgan
angela...@delphi.com
Thomas J. Trebisky
> In a recent book I was reading it said that the WATER KNOT should
>not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
>It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
>my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
>is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
Water knots do absolutely tend to untie themselves. But I still use
them on most of my webbing slings. What I kindof more or less try to
do at least sometimes is to check the slings one by one for "creepers"
as I rack them over my shoulder before starting a lead. It is wise to leave
a healthy tail (2 inches or so) on them to make this quick visual inspection
easier. And yes I have found myself putting a sling on a piece only to
notice that the end has vanished into the knot somewhere. The double
fisherman's knot is superior if you provide the extra length of sling
needed to tie it and don't object to the extra length -- as you say it
is harder to untie. When you tie a new set of slings with water knots,
the only sensible thing to do is to take them all and rig something up
so you can bounce full body weight on them and really tighten them up,
once again my trust carport comes into play here.
Eugene N. Miya
> In a recent book I was reading it said that the WATER KNOT should
>not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
>It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
>my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
>is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
>Ryan (UCSB)
Well, sure. There's truth to that, but it does not negate its usefulness.
It's probably due to the demise of the Swami belt (hear that Hal 8^)
and the rise of harnesses. You shouldn't view a water knot as this static
thing.
A parable: It was said that when cars first came to Saudi Arabia, oil rich
sheiks would buy cars and drive them around out in the desert until they
ran out of gas. Then, they would walk back into town after having a good time.
The car dealer would then do out and tow the cars back and sell them a
second time as used. Mercedes, Rolls, etc. Similar statements could be
made of other parts having different life times like oil, gaskets, etc.
Tying a knot is the start of an act of maintenance. The question is a
matter of degree and trade offs.
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@orville.nas.nasa.gov
UCSB ARPAnet alum. and President of UCSB Mountaineering 1974-75, 1976-77
Resident Cynic, Rock of Ages Home for Retired Hackers
{uunet,mailrus,other gateways}!ames!eugene
My 3rd favorite use of a flame thrower is "Fahrenheit 451."
A Ref: Uncommon Sense, Alan Cromer, Oxford Univ. Press, 1993.
Charles F Wild
knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and tie the knot. To
do this, open one of the ends and tie a very loose overhand knot. Then feed
the other end of the webbing into the tube formed by the other end, following
around the overhand knot. When a sufficient length has been fed in to form the
water knot, pull everything snug. This does take some time, and probably isn't
something you could do with one hand, but it does make a very secure water
knot.
Allen Sanderson
>not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
>It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
>my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
>is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
I still use water knots on slings. Especially on slings that I may
use to bail off of since the knot is easier to until than a double
fishermans. But water knots do tend to slide and can come untied.
Thus you must have a long enough tail so this does not happen. Also
you must check the knots regularly. (One time on a serrious route I
clipped a friend only to notice that there was no tail !!).
For slings that I really don't care about untying I use a double
fishermans.
Allen R. Sanderson
Salt Lake City, Oootah
"I've got you good"
"Well get me better"
- Two climbers talking as one moves through the crux of the climb.
Stuart W. Marlatt
[...]
>The water knot is the knot of choice for 1" tubular webbing, and when
>executed properly will not slip or become untied:
>
>1. The knot must be properly dressed and set. Poorly dressed water
> knots often slip.
>
>2. The two free ends of the webbing should extend at least 6 inches
> beyond the knot.
>
>3. The knot should be backed up by tying an overhand on both sides of the
> knot. Tie the overhand around the loop part of the webbing, using
> the free end. Both overhands should be snug up against the water knot,
> not several inches away. Although it is highly unlikely that a
> properly dressed and set water knot would slip or become untied,
> backing the knot up in this way ensures that the free end cannot work
> its way into and through the knot.
I'd add an additional step to insure the security of water knots in
webbing. If I can safely assume that I'm not going to need to untie
the knot, I'll soak the knot in water, anchor the sling, clip in an aider,
and bounce on it a few times. On the slings on which I've done this,
the knot is rock-hard, and would probably require cutting to undo.
This seems more effective on flat webbing than tubular, BTW. For the
latter, the version of the water knot in which one of the ends is
inserted into the other seems more secure.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mountains are not fair or unfair -- they are just dangerous.
- Reinhold Messner
..............................................................................
s.w. marlatt, phd <>< & *(:-) Prov. 25.2
University of Colorado: mar...@spot.Colorado.edu 492-3939
National Center for Atmospheric Research: mar...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu 497-1669
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Stuart W. Marlatt
You can do this more simply by first tying the overhand knot
elsewhere in the webbing, threading the ends together, and then
moving the knot down the webbing to the areas where the
ends are threaded.
(A little difficult to concisely explain, but easy enough
to figure out if you play with it a bit).
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
To love what you do and feel that it matters -
how could anything be more fun?
-Katharine Graham (Ms. Magazine, October 1974)
Default Trumpet User
>From: cw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles F Wild)
This is an interesting way to tie a water knot. I'll have to try it when I
get home. My only question is, "Is there any way to quickly inspect for
creep?"
SCOOTER scott_...@ccmail.uoregon.edu
Hal Lillywhite
>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with a water
>knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and tie the knot. To
>do this, open one of the ends and tie a very loose overhand knot. Then feed
>the other end of the webbing into the tube formed by the other end, following
>around the overhand knot...
Interesting variation on this knot. I can believe it would make the
knot less likely to come loose (although harder to check since the
tail of the inside end would not be very obvious). I'll have to
experiment with it. But tell me, once you tie and tighten it can
you ever untie it?
Bob Harrington
In article <328s08$p...@ncar.ucar.edu>,
mar...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu (Stuart W. Marlatt) writes:
:
:In article <328j0m$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
:cw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles F Wild) writes:
:>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with a water
:>knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and tie the knot. To
:>do this, open one of the ends and tie a very loose overhand knot. Then feed
:>the other end of the webbing into the tube formed by the other end, following
:>around the overhand knot. When a sufficient length has been fed in to form the
:>water knot, pull everything snug. This does take some time, and probably isn't
:>something you could do with one hand, but it does make a very secure water
:>knot.
:
:You can do this more simply by first tying the overhand knot
:elsewhere in the webbing, threading the ends together, and then
:moving the knot down the webbing to the areas where the
:ends are threaded.
:(A little difficult to concisely explain, but easy enough
:to figure out if you play with it a bit).
I've never heard of this before, but think I see what you guys are
talking about. Everyone seems to agree that one of the dangers of
the water knot (aka ring bend, overhand bend, tape knot) is that
the tails will work their way back into the knot, leaving it untied.
Doesn't your suggested modification make it hard to tell if this is
happening (because you can't see one of the ends)? On the other
hand, I can also imagine that not having the end accessible might
make it impossible to untie if you wanted to, in which case, you
might as well just use a sewn runner.
Otherwise, it sounds nice to not have the tails flopping around.
I'll try it.
Bob
Mark Rose
a year now (as long as I've been climbing) and use water knots exclusively.
None have come even close to untying (I generally leave about 2" tails).
Once a water knot has been weighted, I find it hard to believe it could
work loose. I'm not an absolutist though, I randomly spot check webbing
as I use it... seems to me this if a water knot could work loose, it'd
do so over time so chances are I'd catch it. Not a flame, but 6" tails
and backup knots I'd put under the subject "reasonable backup / overkill".
If you really want to be sure and don't intend to untie your slings, by
all means use a dbl fishermans....
-Mark
Eugene N. Miya
(Carl Ockier) writes:
>Doesn't anyone read the other posts ???
You cannot be assured that the majority of readers get your post.
News is not a reliable network service; other things like mail, Mosaic,
ftp, etc. take precedence. Messages can get dropped.
>-- Sorry about this irritated message. Blame it on my mood, I wanted to go
>climbing tomorrow and just heard they predict rain :-(
Naw, we're all like that. Watch for the supplement post which disagrees
with this ("like that"). It's a survival characteristic.
--eugene miya, NASA Ames Research Center, eug...@orville.nas.nasa.gov
Carl Ockier
Last week I translated an article by the German alpine club who did some
research on waterknots (aka tape knots or "bandschlingenknoten"). The gest
of it was that water knots _do_ come undone when a bit of rock (or wood ,etc.)
works itself into the knot (several fatal accidents) and that the variation
that threads one end into the "tube" of the other when tying the knot is safe.
Doesn't anyone read the other posts ???
Carl.
Scott Fitzwater
>3. The knot should be backed up by tying an overhand on both sides of the
> knot. Tie the overhand around the loop part of the webbing, using
> the free end. Both overhands should be snug up against the water knot,
> not several inches away. Although it is highly unlikely that a
> properly dressed and set water knot would slip or become untied,
> backing the knot up in this way ensures that the free end cannot work
> its way into and through the knot.
I don't believe backing up *any knot* with an overhand adds *any* value. If
the webbing ends are going to slip through a water knot, surely they are going
to slip through an overhand knot as well. The best advice is a well tied and
tightened knot.
###############################################################
Scott Fitzwater scott_f...@ccm.hf.intel.com
###############################################################
Scott Fitzwater
>From: snau...@a.site.name (Default Trumpet User)
>Subject: Re: water knot vs double fishermans
>Date: Tue, 9 Aug 1994 22:36:05 GMT
>Keywords: KNOTS,DANGER
Exactly! If I can't inspect the two free ends of a water knot I ain't gonna
use it!
Greg Opland
>>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with a water
>>knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and tie the knot. To
>>do this, open one of the ends and tie a very loose overhand knot. Then feed
>>the other end of the webbing into the tube formed by the other end, following
>>around the overhand knot. When a sufficient length has been fed in to form the
>>water knot, pull everything snug. This does take some time, and probably isn't
>>something you could do with one hand, but it does make a very secure water
>>knot.
If I understand what you're suggesting here...you're saying feed one end of the
webbing inside the other? Assuming I got this right: Before anyone runs out to
try this, bear in mind that if one end of the knot is inside the other, visual
inspection of the hidden end of the knot is impossible and may cause you
some unhappy times if the knot slips and you go flying.
This entire thread cracks me up...water knots untieing...that's like saying your
car is going to stop running when the gas is gone. Maintenance of climbing gear
is a full-time job. You have to constantly check and recheck everything. Biners,
cams, knots, ropes, harnesses....if you're not, then you're asking for trouble.
-------------
Greg Opland - opl...@saifr00.ateng.az.honeywell.com
/|
\`x.X'
=(___)=
U
"Speed of lightning, roar of thunder, fighting those
who rob and plunder, Underdog..."
Gregory Hill
>not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
>It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
>my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
>is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
>
1" tubular webbing for the slings I tie (the rest are sewn) and a double
fisherman's is too bulky. I tie the water knot initially with long tails,
maybe 1.5". When the knot unties enough so the tail gets shortened down
to 1", I retie the knot. I always check these knots before I use one of
those slings. The slings hardly ever get used during a lead ... almost
always its either to rappel from or to tie into the anchor at a belay.
Nick Parker
webbing with body weight is very effective. Just try it -- tie one
hand tight, and bounce your body weight on another one. Try to untie
them, and you'll see the difference. I've got old slings (old enough
for retirement, but not as old as Eugene) that were tightened this
way, and the knots are still rock hard. As for 6" tails, they'd drive
me nuts flapping all over the place! I leave about 3".
For webbing knots it's important that the webbing be threaded
properly, i.e. laying flat throughout the knot. The "threaded through"
water knot would be difficult to inspect, and by default the internal
webbing is not laying flat. [It's crammed inside the other end of the
loop, which is exactly the same size webbing -- it has to be bunched
up just to fit in there.] I much prefer a normal water knot, where
the webbing lays flat, and is easily inspected.
--
Nick Parker - nspa...@ingr.com - Intergraph, Huntsville, AL
Statements/opinions are my own, not necessarily Intergraph's.
Clyde Soles
> In article <326f0b$v...@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu>, Ryan Lamb
> <ul...@mcl.ucsb.edu> wrote: >In a recent book I was reading it said
> that the WATER KNOT should >not be used in webbing or anywhere.
> Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie. It also suggested to use
> only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From my experience, the
> water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it>is a lot easier
> to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
TJT> Water knots do absolutely tend to untie themselves. But I still use
TJT> them on most of my webbing slings. What I kindof more or less try to
TJT> do at least sometimes is to check the slings one by one for "creepers"
TJT> as I rack them over my shoulder before starting a lead. It is wise
TJT> to leave a healthy tail (2 inches or so) on them to make this quick
TJT> visual inspection easier. And yes I have found myself putting a
TJT> sling on a piece only to notice that the end has vanished into the
TJT> knot somewhere. The double fisherman's knot is superior if you
TJT> provide the extra length of sling needed to tie it and don't object
TJT> to the extra length -- as you say it is harder to untie. When you
TJT> tie a new set of slings with water knots, the only sensible thing to
TJT> do is to take them all and rig something up so you can bounce full
TJT> body weight on them and really tighten them up, once again my trust
TJT> carport comes into play here.
I second this completely. I would just add that I like the smaller bulk of
the "water knot" which, one rumor has it, is so named because of its
slipperiness. Set it hard and check it often.
But then I've used a single bowline, backed up with an overhand, as my tie-in
for twenty years (been lucky so far I guess). The bowline is a great knot *if
you pay attention*. It is a knot that you tie one-handed, in total darkness,
wearing mittens. The bowline, or water knot, or clove hitch CAN kill you, if
you are unaware -- but then, so can a lot of other things.
-------
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Michael A Yukish
> In article <328b5c$t...@news.delphi.com> ange...@news.delphi.com (ANGELA...@DELPHI.COM) writes:
> <snip>
> >3. The knot should be backed up by tying an overhand on both sides of the
> > knot. Tie the overhand around the loop part of the webbing, using
> > the free end. Both overhands should be snug up against the water knot,
> > not several inches away.
(-deleted stuff-)
> I don't believe backing up *any knot* with an overhand adds *any* value. If
> the webbing ends are going to slip through a water knot, surely they are going
> to slip through an overhand knot as well. The best advice is a well tied and
> tightened knot.
If you tie overhand knots in the free ends, and the overhand knots go around
the not-free end (?) of the line, aren't you really tying a water knot that
is then backed up by a fisherman's knot? It seems that in this case you get
the best of both worlds. You get a water knot, and if it slips you then
bring tension on to the backup fisherman's knot (albeit with a water knot
in between the two overhands as they come together).
Is this clear?
/ ---\
---------------------/ --------------xxxx-----------\ /-------
| | XXXX /
\ / XXXX / \
\ / XXXX | |
-------/ \-----------XXXX---------|-----------------------
\---/
overhand waterknot overhand
My first ascii art!
Mike Yukish
hans f barsun
>my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
>is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
>
-Hans
L. Hillman
cw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles F Wild) writes:
>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with
>a water knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and
>tie the knot.
A better trick, if you never untie your slings, is to sew the ends to
the main part of the sling. If you do this with dacron or polyester
(actually the same thing, I believe) thread, and are careful not to
overdo it, you will not damage the sling.
My partner and I have done this for *many* years, and have never had
a problem either with knots untying, or with slings being weakened.
BTW, it is possible, even with the tails sewn down, for the water
knot to loosen, despite having been severely loaded. It remains a
good idea to recheck the knot of each sling before beginning a climb.
Lou Hillman
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Elderly, by the standards of most of this group, but still more or less
functioning climber -- providing that the route is not too hard; that my
partner has assured me he is awake and his Alzheimer's isn't so bad
that he can't remember how to belay; and that no one is looking to see me
use my cane as an aid. Oh, yes: and that _I_ remember which way is up.
Professor Louis B. Hillman lbh...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu
Applied Computer Technology Department | English Department
Rochester Institute of Technology | SUNY College at Brockport
Rochester, NY | Brockport, NY
Greg Opland
>Last week I translated an article by the German alpine club who did some
>research on waterknots (aka tape knots or "bandschlingenknoten"). The gest
>of it was that water knots _do_ come undone when a bit of rock (or wood ,etc.)
>works itself into the knot (several fatal accidents) and that the variation
>that threads one end into the "tube" of the other when tying the knot is safe.
>
>Doesn't anyone read the other posts ???
A) You can't tie a knot and then just ignore it forever.
B) The knot you're talking about with the end through the "tube" of the other
makes it damn hard to inspect to see if the tail inside the tube has worked
back into the knot.
C) What's research? I'm sure the research on the o-rings used on the Challenger
space shuttle had been researched and declared perfectly safe also.
D) You have to keep your eyes open and continually inspect your gear. The life
you save may be your own.
George Bell
> In article <snaucler....@a.site.name> snau...@a.site.name muses:
>>From: cw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles F Wild)
>>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with a water
>>knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and tie the knot. To
>>do this, open one of the ends and tie a very loose overhand knot. Then feed
>>the other end of the webbing into the tube formed by the other end, following
>>around the overhand knot. When a sufficient length has been fed in to form the
>>water knot, pull everything snug. This does take some time, and probably isn't
>>something you could do with one hand, but it does make a very secure water
>>knot.
>This is an interesting way to tie a water knot. I'll have to try it when I
>get home. My only question is, "Is there any way to quickly inspect for
>creep?"
I call this a "hidden water knot". A fun way to scare your climbing partners
(What! Is that sling REALLY tied together), but it's worthless for real
climbing since you can't inspect the inside end. It may be even stronger
than a normal water knot 'cause of the increased contact area. Anyone ever
done a strength test on one?
-George
Another handy knot is the figure 666 knot - it only comes untied if you fall ;-)
Scott Fitzwater
>From: M...@ECL.PSU.EDU (Michael A Yukish)
>Subject: Re: Water knot_AND_double fisherman's knot
>Date: 11 Aug 1994 12:38:10 GMT
>In <Scott_Fitzwat...@ccm.hf.intel.com> Scott_F...@ccm.hf.intel.com writes:
>> In article <328b5c$t...@news.delphi.com> ange...@news.delphi.com (ANGELA...@DELPHI.COM) writes:
>> <snip>
>> >3. The knot should be backed up by tying an overhand on both sides of the
>> > knot. Tie the overhand around the loop part of the webbing, using
>> > the free end. Both overhands should be snug up against the water knot,
>> > not several inches away.
> (-deleted stuff-)
>
>> I don't believe backing up *any knot* with an overhand adds *any* value. If
>> the webbing ends are going to slip through a water knot, surely they are going
>> to slip through an overhand knot as well. The best advice is a well tied and
>> tightened knot.
>If you tie overhand knots in the free ends, and the overhand knots go around
>the not-free end (?) of the line, aren't you really tying a water knot that
>is then backed up by a fisherman's knot? It seems that in this case you get
>the best of both worlds. You get a water knot, and if it slips you then
>bring tension on to the backup fisherman's knot (albeit with a water knot
>in between the two overhands as they come together).
The best of both worlds *and* the world bulkiest knot. Why not just tie a
fishermans?
<snip>
Eric Hirst
> The knot you're talking about with the end through the "tube" of the other
> makes it damn hard to inspect to see if the tail inside the tube has worked
> back into the knot.
I just tied such a knot. Inspection is trivial. Try feeling the thing.
Eric Hirst
er...@u.washington.edu
Cyr Daniel
>I'd add an additional step to insure the security of water knots in
>webbing. If I can safely assume that I'm not going to need to untie
>the knot, I'll soak the knot in water, anchor the sling, clip in an
>aider, and bounce on it a few times. On the slings on which I've
>done this, the knot is rock-hard, and would probably require
>cutting to undo.
Don't forget that the weakest part of the sling is the KNOT! Rock hard
like you said mean a bit weaker. A knot is the weakest part because
of the loop imposed to the webbing (rope also). Smaller is the loop (or
coil), higher will be the lost of strength of the sling. If you bounce
couple of time on the sling, you reduce the size of the loops in the
knot... you reduce the strength of the piece. For me the better advice
is to dress properly and set the knot (with a good tail) add a good
but not excessive tension to it and inspect REGULARLY.
No problem with it in ten years of climbing!
--
Daniel Cyr /\ Studio de production visuelle
Universite de Montreal /\/ \ Telephone: (514)343-5682
CRSN - Dept. de Physiologie / /\ \ Internet: cy...@ere.umontreal.ca
----/ / \ \----
Eugene N. Miya
(Eric Hirst) writes:
>I just tied such a knot. Inspection is trivial. Try feeling the thing.
Finally, someone who realized this! ;^)
Mark Stavar
: In article <326f0b$v...@ucsbuxb.ucsb.edu> ul...@mcl.ucsb.edu (Ryan Lamb) writes:
: > In a recent book I was reading it said that the WATER KNOT should
: >not be used in webbing or anywhere. Supposedly, it has a tendency to untie.
: >It also suggested to use only the infamous DOUBLE FISHERMANS KNOT. From
: >my experience, the water knot has never gotten close to untying, and it
: >is a lot easier to untie after use. So what do you guys think?
: I still use water knots on slings. Especially on slings that I may
: use to bail off of since the knot is easier to until than a double
: fishermans. But water knots do tend to slide and can come untied.
: Thus you must have a long enough tail so this does not happen. Also
: you must check the knots regularly. (One time on a serrious route I
: clipped a friend only to notice that there was no tail !!).
: For slings that I really don't care about untying I use a double
: fishermans.
Can anyone make any comment on the degree to which different types of
knots reduce the breaking strength of webbing (and rope for that
matter)?
I guess I'm mainly interested in the most common ones -
double/figure-8, double/overhand, double/fishermans, clovehitch and
bowline.
Thanks.
Ciao,
marks
Kobus Barnard
L. Hillman <lbh...@ritvax.isc.rit.edu> wrote:
>In article <328j0m$8...@charm.magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu>
>cw...@magnus.acs.ohio-state.edu (Charles F Wild) writes:
>>A good trick when tying the ends of a length of tubular webbing with
>>a water knot is to thread one end into the "tube" of the other and
>>tie the knot.
>
>A better trick, if you never untie your slings, is to sew the ends to
>the main part of the sling. If you do this with dacron or polyester
>(actually the same thing, I believe) thread, and are careful not to
>overdo it, you will not damage the sling.
>
I sew the tails together after loading the knot. A little more bulk,
but then I don't have to worry about over-doing it, and you get a few
more inches when you cut the knots out if have to sacrafice one for a
rap.
Most of my slings are sewn, but the ones that aren't get the above
treatment. There have been accidents at Squamish due to water knots
that have worked loose. Vigilence will pevent this, but I perfer to
stack the odds more in favour - 100% vigilence is not possible. If
you think it is, then you haven't done enough climbing!
I won't dare say the way I do it is the best way for anyone else, but I
have heard and seen enough to join the chorus in saying that this is a
problem worth being aware of.
>My partner and I have done this for *many* years, and have never had
>a problem either with knots untying, or with slings being weakened.
>
>BTW, it is possible, even with the tails sewn down, for the water
>knot to loosen, despite having been severely loaded. It remains a
>good idea to recheck the knot of each sling before beginning a climb.
>
I agree! Definately a good idea to become sensitive to the state of
your gear.
>Lou Hillman
Giselher Schneider
eug...@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov writes:
>>I just tied such a knot. Inspection is trivial. Try feeling the thing.
>
>Finally, someone who realized this! ;^)
The question is not if the inspection is trivial, but if you will
actually do it often enough. Visual inspection may not be better but you
will perform it more often.
what do your friends say when you go fumbling through their rack to try
to inspect the knots?
Gi
Giselher Schneider
ma...@orb.mincom.oz.au writes:
>Can anyone make any comment on the degree to which different types of
>knots reduce the breaking strength of webbing (and rope for that
>matter)?
the general rule is:
The larger the diameter of the bends the higher the breaking strength.
But before a knot breaks I am sure another link in your safety system
breaks.
Gi
Jens Stark
>I call this a "hidden water knot". A fun way to scare your climbing partners
>(What! Is that sling REALLY tied together), but it's worthless for real
>climbing since you can't inspect the inside end. It may be even stronger
>than a normal water knot 'cause of the increased contact area. Anyone ever
>done a strength test on one?
As mentioned before, yes ! It IS better - and you inspect by touch.
Jens
--
Jens Stark ro...@foobar.hanse.de CI$: 100112,144
Jens Stark
>For webbing knots it's important that the webbing be threaded
>properly, i.e. laying flat throughout the knot. The "threaded through"
>water knot would be difficult to inspect, and by default the internal
>webbing is not laying flat. [It's crammed inside the other end of the
>loop, which is exactly the same size webbing -- it has to be bunched
>up just to fit in there.] I much prefer a normal water knot, where
>the webbing lays flat, and is easily inspected.
You inspect by touch. The StuffInKnot has been tested by those curious
people of the DAV sefaty circle. It is at least 15% stronger than the
SideBySide version - and safer.
Jens Stark
>This entire thread cracks me up...water knots untieing...that's like saying your
>car is going to stop running when the gas is gone. Maintenance of climbing gear
>is a full-time job. You have to constantly check and recheck everything. Biners,
>cams, knots, ropes, harnesses....if you're not, then you're asking for trouble.
HMM -
"biner gates - checked"
"rope - worn but ok"
"prussik - worn out, discard"
"dead cat - ripe, could use more flies, though"
WAYNE SMITH, DEVELOPMENT, LONDON, EXT246
The only place I've seen any discussion of knot weakening effects is in a book
"Caving Practice and Equipment" (I think it was that one). Don't know the
author or publisher, but both are British.
The above is certainly the case - hence when tying into your harness with a
reversed fig 8, the live rope should take the outside route throught the first
part of the knot, to give the greatest diameter.
Wayne
Quang-Tuan Luong
|> >>Can anyone make any comment on the degree to which different types of
|> >>knots reduce the breaking strength of webbing (and rope for that
|> >>matter)?
The know which reduces the less the strength of the rope is the "9".
To my knowledge, it is used only by rescuers, beeing too bulky for
climbers. The "8" comes next, followed closely by bowline and fisherman.
Source of information: the textbook of the Chamonix SAR (which flies
a chopper each hour in summer).
Note as always you don't get a free lunch. The stronger knots are the
most bulky.
Tuan.
--
Quang-Tuan LUONG Email: qtl...@robotics.eecs.berkeley.edu
EECS Office: 333 Cory Hall, (510) 643-5806
U. of California Lab: 330 Cory Hall, (510) 642-3248
Berkeley, CA 94720 WWW: http://robotics.eecs.berkeley.edu/~qtluong/qtluong.html
Nick Parker
>>...I much prefer a normal water knot, where the webbing lays flat,
>>and is easily inspected.
ro...@foobar.hanse.de (Jens Stark) writes:
>You inspect by touch. The StuffInKnot has been tested...DAV...at least 15%
>stronger than the SideBySide version - and safer.
Good to know it's been tested, it'd be interesting to see a transcript.
I'll stick with the plain water knot. Checking by feel might be OK for the
living room or a sunny crag, but it would be less appropriate for ice
climbs, and cold alpine, where you'd likely be wearing gloves. I can check
a plain water knot with my gloves on. Sure, I can take my gloves off, but
when my hands are about frozen anyway, why should I have to? I'll stick
with a knot I can *easily* inpect, and works well for all situations.
Eugene N. Miya
>eug...@wilbur.nas.nasa.gov writes:
>>>I just tied such a knot. Inspection is trivial. Try feeling the thing.
This I did not say. I hope you climb better than you edit.
I said:
>>Finally, someone who realized this! ;^)
In article <32j7vn$n...@lynx.msc.cornell.edu> Giselher Schneider
<schn...@msc.cornell.edu> writes:
>The question is not if the inspection is trivial, but if you will
>actually do it often enough. Visual inspection may not be better but you
>will perform it more often.
>
>what do your friends say when you go fumbling through their rack to try
>to inspect the knots?
Frankly, I don't fumble through their racks.
My long-term partners and I watch out for each other's back. Our lives
depend on each others observation and communication. We realize our
human fallabilities, and we don't let time consuming social pressures
get our way when our lives (men and women) are in balance.
Personally, I have "inherited" a few of these knots and have decided
not to bother retying them into other knots, and I typically tie DFs
and retain a few overhand follow throughs (water knots, what ever you want
to call them) as leave behind rap anchors as necessary. Frankly, I'm not
fixated on any of these techniques.
It's maintenance.
Stuart W. Marlatt
>Stuart Marlatt wrote:
>>I'd add an additional step to insure the security of water knots in
>>webbing. If I can safely assume that I'm not going to need to untie
>>the knot, I'll soak the knot in water, anchor the sling, clip in an
>>aider, and bounce on it a few times. On the slings on which I've
>>done this, the knot is rock-hard, and would probably require
>>cutting to undo.
>
>Don't forget that the weakest part of the sling is the KNOT! Rock hard
>like you said mean a bit weaker. A knot is the weakest part because
>of the loop imposed to the webbing (rope also). Smaller is the loop (or
>coil), higher will be the lost of strength of the sling. If you bounce
>couple of time on the sling, you reduce the size of the loops in the
>knot... you reduce the strength of the piece. For me the better advice
>is to dress properly and set the knot (with a good tail) add a good
>but not excessive tension to it and inspect REGULARLY.
>No problem with it in ten years of climbing!
Yeah, yeah...but I've yet to have a sling break in 20+ years of climbing.
I do inspect my knots regularly. This is good advice. I recently noted
loose knots on a number of titon slings (1" tubular, not set as I
described above, but just tied and dressed). Hard-setting the knots
does have its disadvantages. If you need to untie one, you are pretty hosed.
And true, it does weaken the knot - probably not a concern in 1" webbing,
maybe a problem in smaller sizes. You can also sew your own - iff you know
what you are doing (I've done a few, and tested several to destruction.
I'm satisfied in doing this myself, but the net is not the place to learn
it).
The point you (and several others have also voiced) is valid. Safe climbing
means knowing what you are doing, and taking the time to inspect ropes,
anchors, etc. This goes for the water knot, the bowline, the fig-8, and
for commercially-sewn slings/qds/harnesses, etc. Just because it worked
once doesn't mean it is in good shape this time.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"The elevation of ends and the simplification of means is the goal."
- Henry David Thoreau
..............................................................................
s.w. marlatt, phd <>< & *(:-) Prov. 25.2
University of Colorado: mar...@spot.Colorado.edu 492-3939
National Center for Atmospheric Research: mar...@neit.cgd.ucar.edu 497-1669
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jeff Elison
: Yeah, yeah...but I've yet to have a sling break in 20+ years of climbing.
How many times have you taken 60' falls? How about taking or catching
a 20' factor 2 fall? Or been hit by lightening? Just cause it hasn't
happend yet, doesn't mean I don't worry about it. I'd guess that many
accidents are a result of circumstances that don't happen during 20
years of an average climbers career.
I always like this line of reasoning :-) I laugh when I catch myself
doing it.
On the other hand, I'd worry more about a knot in 1" tubular slipping
and not being noticed than breaking cause it was too tight.
Mort
L. Hillman
Giselher Schneider <schn...@msc.cornell.edu> writes:
>The question is not if the inspection is trivial, but if you will
>actually do it often enough. Visual inspection may not be better but you
>will perform it more often.
>
>what do your friends say when you go fumbling through their rack to try
>to inspect the knots?
Well, mine tend to say, "How nice to climb with someone who is
concerned for MY safety as well as his own!"
It's not a question of trusting your partner (and I do, or I wouldn't
have been climbing with him for close to 20 years) or not trusting
him/her. It is a question of each of you knowing that the other is
human and thus liable to misteakes (intentional).
Dax149
lam...@uni2a.unige.ch
> In article <32j87l$n...@lynx.msc.cornell.edu>, Giselher Schneider <schn...@msc.cornell.edu> writes:
>> In article <32ecsl$p...@saturn.mincom.oz.au> Mark Stavar,
>> ma...@orb.mincom.oz.au writes:
>>>Can anyone make any comment on the degree to which different types of
>>>knots reduce the breaking strength of webbing (and rope for that
>>>matter)?
I have experimented with different knots on static test machines.
In general, what you hear is true (imagine that).
1) Sewn runners are a lot stronger than tied runners.
2) Tied runners always break at the knot (and spectra sort of melts
if you can keep it from slipping)
3) and finally, the water knot is considerably stronger than the
double fisherman. I can't remember by how much, but it
is significant, though not anywhere near as great as the
difference between tied and sewn runners.
Tom
lam...@uni2a.unige.ch
> Note as always you don't get a free lunch. The stronger knots are the
> most bulky.
Actually, that's true with rope, but not with webbing. As I mentioned,
the water knot is stronger than the fisherman's with nylon web.
I believe that this is because the radius is not what is important,
but the concentration of pressure. The fisherman basically cuts
the webbing with strand that is underneath.
Tom
Eric S. Boltz
This discussion of the breaking strength of knots is interesting, but
I have to know...Has anyone ever had a knot fail from a fall?
I don't mean untieing and I don't mean in an MTS load frame.
On 1" tubular or, say 9-11mm rope, has anyone seen a knot break?
-E
JCLee1
I do know that it is alot easier to untie the water knot. That's for sure.