Rappelling on Kevlar ropes
Michele Angileri
accessory cords aren't diffused as a means of rappelling. I am a canyoneer
(from Italy), and (you know) in canyoning are used 10 mm polyammide static
ropes. Using 5.5mm Kevlar or Dyneema ropes would result in a large reduction
of weight and space in backpack, having still a 3000 daN breaking load ...
Why are they used very few? have you any experience with them? any problem
with them?
Michele
P.S.
Problems might eventually lie in the outer part of rope, not much resistant
to abrasion. Is it true?
Guillaume Dargaud
> accessory cords aren't diffused as a means of rappelling. I am a canyoneer
> (from Italy), and (you know) in canyoning are used 10 mm polyammide static
> ropes. Using 5.5mm Kevlar or Dyneema ropes would result in a large
reduction
> of weight and space in backpack, having still a 3000 daN breaking load ...
> Why are they used very few? have you any experience with them? any problem
> with them?
From the little use I've had with kevlar, it's very rigid, which is not
something you want to deal with in a rappelling device. And also rappelling
on tiny ropes is more painfull on the hands. Ever had to add your shoelaces
to your old rope to make it to that hanging rap station ?
--
Guillaume Dargaud
Colorado State University - Dept of Atmospheric Science
http://www.gdargaud.net/
"I've always wondered where the Old Timers bought their pants, with their
cantaloupe-sized balls and all." — Stephen Prouty.
Burns
"Michele Angileri" <kiman...@thunder.it> wrote in message
news:al5puo$n0u$1...@lacerta.tiscalinet.it...Using 5.5mm Kevlar or Dyneema
ropes... ...any problem
> with them?
>
> Michele
>
How would you ascend ropes so skinny. I admit that my experience with
ascending is limited to prusiks when I just can't climb hard enough (of
course, this is on my trusty 10.5). I thought that canyoneers used the same
types of ascenders so I would imagine this would rule out skinny ropes
unless other ascension means could be found. hmmmm...
Burns
Mike Garrison
>
> I'm asking to myself why kevlar (aramide) or dyneema (polyethilene)
> accessory cords aren't diffused as a means of rappelling.
Some people bring them as emergency rap ropes. Some guides
use them.
But they are not used more often for many reasons:
1) specialized and expensive (climbers already have rope in
the closet)
2) don't have any other uses (rope is heavier but can also
be used to belay if necessary)
3) are not as durable (kevlar in particular loses a lot of
strength when it is bent - the fibers are rigid and they
break down)
4) will not work in normal rappel devices
-Mike
Michele Angileri
>
> From the little use I've had with kevlar, it's very rigid, which is not
> something you want to deal with in a rappelling device.
IMHO rigidity is a good feature in descending. Even some new-made caving
rope are increased in rigidity by putting a little core of kevlar fibers,
which will break under an important fall allowing the rope to absorb shock
(for example Cousin "Statix", 9.6 mm).
Elastic rope oscillate up and down on sharp rock edges while descending.
This breaks the rope in some cases. A rigid rope have less probability to
break in this way.
> And also rappelling on tiny ropes is more painfull on the hands.
Maybe this can be avoided by using a particular descender giving a lot of
friction ... (however I use gloves)
Michele
Brian in SLC
No, Kevlar is very resistant to abrasion.
Kevlar itself is very abrasive. Would eat right thru your rappel
device. That's maybe the numero uno reason its not used.
Other might be that repetitive flexing may cause small fibers to
splinter off and those little critters can be hard on the respiratory
system (ala asbestos). Also would cause a reduction in strength.
From the MSDS, "Industrial monitoring of airborne fibril indicate that
it
would be unlikely that human exposures would approach levels that
caused
permanent heath effects in animals studies. However, based on these
animal
studies, long term exposure to high doses of respirable fibers could
lead to
pulmonary infammation and subsequent development of chronic lung
desease."
Rope braiders would be at higher risk than rappellers, of course.
Kevlar can't be hot cut.
Specific gravity of Kevlar is around 1.4 so, for wet canyons, a rope
made from Kevlar would sink.
Folks who use Kevlar rope claim its about indestructable (I've seen an
8mm prototype version made by Sterling, I think). Has nice "hand"
too. Soft.
Some yachting folk use Kevlar rope. Perfect application.
Low stretch. Wouldn't fly as rope for rescue (wouldn't pass NFPA
reqt's).
Cost. Bit more spendy than your standard nylon fiber.
I think a combo platter rope made from a couple different fibers would
be super. Kevlar core. But, would be spendy.
Bluewater's canyon pro (spectra) might be worth a look. 8mm dia. Not
sure I'd care to use a rope too much smaller than 7mm for
canyoneering... Also a tad more spendy.
I have Kevlar shoelaces. Thin, durable. Had to seal the cut ends
with super glue to keep them from fraying but, I'll bet will out last
several pairs of shoes. Load tested over a sharp edge at 440lb. Over
a 1/2" rod, broke at the knot at 605lb. Neat-o.
There's an egroup with close to 500 folks who discuss canyoneering,
all aspects. Good mix of folk from all over the globe. Shoot me an
email if your interested and I'll send you the link.
Brian in SLC
Dingus Milktoast
"Mike Garrison" <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote >
> 3) are not as durable (kevlar in particular loses a lot of
> strength when it is bent - the fibers are rigid and they
> break down)
>
> 4) will not work in normal rappel devices
>
John Long penned an article once. I recall it was about rapping into some
massive sinkhole system in Brazil or some such. They chose 5mil kevlar to
save weight. The rope broke down, literally as they rapped. I believe any
repeated flex application is unsuitable for kevlar ropes. That would be
the field answer.
DMT
Ben Boykin
kevlar accessory cord through a figure eight somewhere between 50 and [lets
say] 120 times, and then he did a breaking test, and it snapped off at an
absurdly lower-than-rated breaking strength (this is back before KNewtons were
the standard). The main lesson was that this new miracle fiber ws not
infallible, and that it didn't hurt to have a thicker strand of accessory cord
to use as a zip line tha 5.5 mm kevlar.
It was right about that time that Jerzy Kukuczka was killed on Lhotse when his
5-mm accessory cord broke in a fall high on the South Face.
DON'T use that stuff for rappelling. Use 9 mm, as it is forgiving most of the
time, and most importantly, it is uber alles thicker.
IMHO.
----b
---------b
Remove NODISCO to email
Mike Garrison
>
> John Long penned an article once. I recall it was about rapping into some
> massive sinkhole system in Brazil or some such. They chose 5mil kevlar to
> save weight. The rope broke down, literally as they rapped. I believe any
> repeated flex application is unsuitable for kevlar ropes. That would be
> the field answer.
Yes.
Actually, spectra is a much better fiber to use for this
application than kevlar.
Sailors tried kevlar sails for a short time, but the life of
the sail was ridiculously short.
-Mike
Dan Lehman
> > accessory cords aren't diffused as a means of rappelling
Kevlar doesn't fare well in flexing (cf. www.xmission.com/~TMoyer/testing/
and the report on using hi-mod ropes in cordelettes); hi-mod polyethylene
(Spectra/Dyneema) does. But the latter material has a very low melting
point--not good for the heat-generation of abseiling! It's also very
slippery. Both of these materials, as well as Vetran, fare poorly in
knots, for perhaps a combination of reasons (their very low elasticity
and coeficient of friction)!?
> > , and (you know) in canyoning are used 10 mm polyammide static ropes.
Well, some vendors offer polyester & polypropylene combinations (polycombo
ropes are popular in commercial marine applications, for lightweight, low
stretch, chemical resistance, and durability).
>> Using 5.5mm Kevlar or Dyneema ropes would result in a large reduction
>> of weight and space in backpack, having still a 3000 daN breaking load ...
Beware quotations of breaking loads. 1) they might be wrong (the testing
done by Tom Moyer found one Sterling Vectran cord to break below its advertised
strength in a loop, e.g.), and 2) they're not for knotted strength, usually
(again, knotting the stuff reduces the strength by up to 80%, much more
severely than for *conventional* rope materials (cf. SAIL mag. 2001.06)!).
>> Problems might eventually lie in the outer part of rope,
>> not much resistant to abrasion. Is it true?
I doubt that any of the ropes with which you are likely to see for sale in
the fields of caving/climbing/canyoneering/SAR have the pure hi-mod fiber
on the outside: rather, they're all sheathed by some other material, usually
polyester (which seems to make sense, being relatively inelastic, too) or
nylon (which at first seems a bad match--being strethy--, but when one
looks carefully at the mechanics in knots--i.p., the likelihood that the
core is slipping within the sheath, and the sheath will bear load--, it might
actually make more sense!); some yachting ropes sheath w/polyethylene, for
light weight (but this seems overall problematic for knotting).
> No, Kevlar is very resistant to abrasion.
Hmmm, this isn't what the manufacturers' own fiber-selection guides say.
> Kevlar itself is very abrasive. Would eat right thru your rappel device.
Again, one is unlikely to have the hi-mod fiber on the outside.
--could find that sort of rope, but it's not the usual thing for sale
(some SAR catalogues have such, where it's the heat-resistance of Kevlar
that's important).
> Folks who use Kevlar rope claim its about indestructable
Hmmm, again the remark about core & sheath--how many are using a pure Kevlar
sheath, or other fabrication that puts K. on the surface?! (E.g., there is
one special yacht rope that does so, expressly to reduce the "smoking" that
can come from polyester rubbing on a winch at high loads (i.e., for larger
sizes of rope--3/8" and up).)
--dl*
====
Mr.T
In Twight's light and fast book he mentions using a lightweight single
rope + 6mm cord for rappelling. I assume he meant spectra cord, but
it was not explicitly stated. I wonder what the safest way to tie 6mm
cord to a single rope would be. And what would the best rap device be
to use with two such disparate lines.
Mike Garrison
>
> In Twight's light and fast book he mentions using a lightweight single
> rope + 6mm cord for rappelling. I assume he meant spectra cord, but
> it was not explicitly stated. I wonder what the safest way to tie 6mm
> cord to a single rope would be. And what would the best rap device be
> to use with two such disparate lines.
No, I think you have the wrong idea there.
With the rope/cord setup I have heard of, you tie a double
fisherman between the cord and the rope. Then you string the
rope through a rap ring. The knot prevents the rope from
passing through the rap ring. You rap down the rope as a
single strand (using your normal rap device). Once at the
bottom, you pull on the cord, which pulls the rope.
Twight could have used some other setup, but it sounds to me
like you are talking about the one I just described.
-Mike
Edward Gerety
> fisherman between the cord and the rope. Then you string the
> rope through a rap ring. The knot prevents the rope from
> passing through the rap ring. You rap down the rope as a
> single strand (using your normal rap device). Once at the
> bottom, you pull on the cord, which pulls the rope.
Now that is REALLY scary. I've rapped a lot with a normal dynamic rope and
a 7mm cord. I put figure 8's in both ropes to tie them together, then make
sure the big one is the one that sits on the rappel point. Pull the small
one. I've used lots of ATC type devices. They all work reasonably well
with both ropes threaded.
Edward
Mike Garrison
Yeah, but the idea here was to save weight. Really save
weight. One full strength lead rope and one looong shoelace.
I think my friend who did this used 3mm nylon for the cord.
Something like that. There would be absolutely no point to
threading it through the rap device, except as a way to keep
it handy.
There would be less friction, but an extra biner with the
rap device would make up the difference. I've rapped single
fixed lines before.
I'm not sure why it would be really scary, once you have
convinced yourself that the knot is too big to go through
the rap ring. In a regular double rope rappel, you are toast
if the knot fails. This is no different.
Having said that, I've never used this technique. But I've
never needed to save that much weight, either. It's a style
I've only heard of being used for long and somewhat risky
one-day alpine ascents, where speed is the biggest safety
factor.
-Mike
N42461
(IRT a 5-6mm tag line and a regular cord)
>Having said that, I've never used this technique. But I've
>never needed to save that much weight, either.
Figured I'd try this once a while back.....for practice, before I might
want/need to. The tiny cord got wrapped on everything, even in a slight breeze.
Then it had no mass to throw a loop up to untangle it..stretched too much to
pull throught the anchors...it was evil. Glad I brought the jugs.
nathan sweet
Edward Gerety
> I'm not sure why it would be really scary, once you have
> convinced yourself that the knot is too big to go through
> the rap ring.
Can't convince myself.
--
Edward Gerety | Rabbit Mountain
Boulder, Colorado USA
Tel (01 303)494-7810 | Fax (01 303)494-7813
edw...@rabbitusa.com | http://www.rabbitusa.com
Thor Lancelot Simon
If you use 3mm cord, you ought to be able to feed it from your _pocket_
rope-bucket style, no?
--
Thor Lancelot Simon t...@rek.tjls.com
But as he knew no bad language, he had called him all the names of common
objects that he could think of, and had screamed: "You lamp! You towel! You
plate!" and so on. --Sigmund Freud
Lord Slime
> > With the rope/cord setup I have heard of, you tie a double
> > fisherman between the cord and the rope. Then you string the
> > rope through a rap ring. The knot prevents the rope from
> > passing through the rap ring. You rap down the rope as a
> > single strand (using your normal rap device). Once at the
> > bottom, you pull on the cord, which pulls the rope.
>
> Now that is REALLY scary.
And incredibly stupid. A good way to die.
> I've rapped a lot with a normal dynamic rope and
> a 7mm cord. I put figure 8's in both ropes to tie them together, then make
> sure the big one is the one that sits on the rappel point. Pull the small
> one.
No, you don't have to. Please refer to my article (published R&I several
years ago). I think Dawn has an unedited version on her site.
One thing I didn't address in the article is that when the ropes have a
lot of friction, pulling the small rope is VERY DIFFICULT since it's hard
to grasp. Anytime you think it might be hard to retrieve the ropes, set
it up to pull the lead rope.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> N42461 <n42...@aol.com> wrote:
> >>Mike Garrison wrote:
> >Figured I'd try this once a while back.....for practice, before I might
> >want/need to. The tiny cord got wrapped on everything, even in a slight breeze.
> >Then it had no mass to throw a loop up to untangle it..stretched too much to
> >pull throught the anchors...it was evil. Glad I brought the jugs.
>
> If you use 3mm cord, you ought to be able to feed it from your _pocket_
> rope-bucket style, no?
No. It still tangles on *EVERYTHING*. In fact, I'd guess it will
get stuck ALL THE TIME when you try to pull it. Hell, even a
7mm line tangles like hell. Try before you buy (or spew).
I use a 8mm static.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> > convinced yourself that the knot is too big to go through
> > the rap ring.
>
> Can't convince myself.
And for good reason. A double fishermans on a 3mm cord?
I don't think so. Also, you'd be surprised how often the knot
will jam in the ring. The first coil kinda slips in and...
Also, have you ever tried to pull a 3mm cord when the rope
gets even a little stuck? How about when the rope gets
good-n-stuck? You gonna prussik up the 3mm cord?
Good fucking luck!
- Lord Slime
jeffers
<snippage>
> There would be less friction, but an extra biner with the
> rap device would make up the difference. I've rapped single
> fixed lines before.
<and more snippage>
Be easy trying this the first time. A Bluewater Accelerator is so
slick that even an extra biner doesn't give enough friction to hold
with one hand with confidence. I use a carabiner wrap with 5 turns
that holds my 200# with comfortable friction. That 1 inch drop when
you weight the setup and the first turn slips up over the top of the
biner is interesting over air.
On the other hand, that same setup on a PMI rope had me trying to
shove the rope into the rap device just to descend.
Brian in SLC
Not so bad. We use pull cords all the time (more often lately it
seems) and rappel single strand. Most folk seem to like configuring a
clove hitch onto a carabiner, and rapping off the biner spine against
a rapide ala the "biner block". I also like just rapping against the
knot of a EDK (I tie another in-line as a backup to prevent the knot
from rolling) against a rapide. With some diameter ropes, using a
smaller rapide will keep the knot from sucking through. Nice when
you're using a 300, 200 and 100 foot rope set. Rap single on the 300,
tie the 200 and 100 together as pull cords and you don't have to stop
to pass the knot.
I think there's a schematic somewhere on Petzl's website for
configuring a pull cord clipped into a carabiner which keeps the ropes
together as you pull the retrieval cord.
For pull cords, I've experimented with 5.5mm Titan cord, but, darned
if I can get a ropeman or a prussic to work very well on that small a
diameter. Sometimes on long raps, clipping an ascender into the pull
cord makes retrieval a bunch easier. For me, I think the smallest
diameter pull cord would be 6mm as its quasi usable for a rappel or is
jugable in an emergency (very scary movies). 3mm pull cords have such
a low strength that if 2 big burley folks were pullin' on it, might
bust at the knot. That'd suck.
Brian in SLC
Edward Gerety
<<<pulling the small rope is VERY DIFFICULT since it's hard
to grasp.>>>
So wrap it around your hand. Use something for padding if necessary.
Edward
Lg
> "Edward Gerety" <rms...@compuserve.com> wrote in message ...
> > > With the rope/cord setup I have heard of, you tie a double
> > > fisherman between the cord and the rope. Then you string the
> > > rope through a rap ring. The knot prevents the rope from
> > > passing through the rap ring. You rap down the rope as a
> > > single strand (using your normal rap device). Once at the
> > > bottom, you pull on the cord, which pulls the rope.
> >
> > Now that is REALLY scary.
>
> And incredibly stupid. A good way to die.
Not really, if you know what you are doing. Just like any other method
we use while climbing. I've also written on this subject as well
before but none of my work ever seems to make it onto Dawn's site. So
here it is again as an alternate method:
When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix on
the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick link
or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be sure the
fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for obvious
reasons. Then with your small cord, thread the bight of the figure 8
with a figure 8 follow through, (*)interlocking the two cords
together. While rappelling the single line, feed out the retrieval
cord as you descend. Stuffing the retrieval cord into the top of your
pack before the rappel is key, so that it pulls (self-feeds) as you
descend. Make sure you tie off the loose end of the retrieval cord to
your pack as well, so you don't lose it.
(*)Note: When you are connecting different diameter cords together,
more than 3 mm of difference, you need to connect them together in
this interlocking fashion. Same way if you are connecting webbing to
cord for some reason.
>
> > I've rapped a lot with a normal dynamic rope and
> > a 7mm cord. I put figure 8's in both ropes to tie them together, then make
> > sure the big one is the one that sits on the rappel point. Pull the small
> > one.
>
> No, you don't have to. Please refer to my article (published R&I several
> years ago). I think Dawn has an unedited version on her site.
>
> One thing I didn't address in the article is that when the ropes have a
> lot of friction, pulling the small rope is VERY DIFFICULT since it's hard
> to grasp. Anytime you think it might be hard to retrieve the ropes, set
> it up to pull the lead rope.
>
> - Lord Slime
As you know, one might have the first partner down try and pull first,
if it moves you're good, if not then switch it over. Only because
having the small cord fall down last may be more apt to hanging up on
features, etc. as smaller diameters have more of a tendency to do. But
you gotta do what you gotta do.
Lg
David Kastrup
> When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> obvious reasons.
I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed. It would
appear to me that placing a metal disk between knot and rap ring
might be one idea: if the inner diameter of the disk is smaller than
that of the ring, and the outer diameter is larger than that of the
ring, whatever squeezes through the disk should easily fit through
the ring, and the disk should be safe from slipping through. Of
course, you get additional worries:
a) edges on the disk harming the rope?
b) will the rigid disk be placing an uneven load on the ring, perhaps
causing failure somewhere?
But at least if the rope gets jammed in the disk, this is not a real
problem since, as opposed to the ring, you will be pulling the disk
down together with the rope.
Thoughts about this?
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de
Lord Slime
> to grasp.>>>
>
> So wrap it around your hand. Use something for padding if necessary.
>
Not a chance Edward. I'll wrap it around your hand and toss you
off the ledge.
Just try it dude. Maybe you can post a TR when you hand
heals.
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> lg...@hotmail.com (Lg) writes:
> > When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> > single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> > device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> > on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> > link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> > sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> > obvious reasons.
>
> I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed.
Yup. Someone else said they put a biner in the knot. Gee, why
not just tie a nut or cam in there? That would surely get stuck on
the pull. And as I said before, pulling a small diameter rope is
difficult if there's any sort of friction, and you don't want to prussik
it!
Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
In my experience, this is rare!
- Lord Slime
Edward Gerety
> off the ledge.
>
> Just try it dude. Maybe you can post a TR when you hand
> heals.
So what was that all about? I have done it. It works.
Edward
Brian in SLC
> "David Kastrup" <David....@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > lg...@hotmail.com (Lg) writes:
> > > When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> > > single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> > > device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> > > on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> > > link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> > > sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> > > obvious reasons.
> >
> > I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed.
>
> Yup. Someone else said they put a biner in the knot. Gee, why
> not just tie a nut or cam in there?
Ugh...
There is a nice rappel trick with a piton and a rapide....shoot, you
only need one rope for that...(rap with pin under tension, then give
the rope a hippy hippy shake, out fall pin, down comes rope). Or, rap
off a Pika Aardvark and give the rope a shake. Eeek. Closed course,
professional driver only.
> That would surely get stuck on the pull. And as I said before, pulling a small diameter rope is difficult if there's any sort of friction, and you don't want to prussik it!
If stuck, you'd prussic up against the knot on the fat rope...unless
of course you managed a partial retrieval...(ouch, this happened to
some friends of mine. Glad they had spare rope).
> Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> In my experience, this is rare!
Most seem to carry the size that would work for their rope diameter...
Check out the Petzl website. Click on Canyoning techniques then
"Classic abseil/rappel". In the schematic, replace the single fatty,
with a thin cord on the pull side. Viola.
Its an easy thing to check out from the safety of the hangboard.
Sling on hangboard, thread on a rapide, tie 6mm pull cord to 7 or 8mm
rap line. Position knot against rapide. Then pull on the pull cord.
Rap on the rap line. Easy as pie.
I usually leave about 14" of tail. Pull is easy. With a proper sized
rapide, I don't really see how the knot would get stuck. If a person
is worried about that, then go to the biner block or set up per the
diagram on the Petzl website.
I usually worry more about a biner (from a "biner block") gettin'
stuck in a constriction whilst pulling the retrieval cord
down...so...prefer to rap against a knot instead (EDK). Low profile.
This single rope rap technique is pretty handy and especially if you
damage (core shot etc) one of a pair of double ropes. No knot to
pass.
6mm pull cords are pretty popular in certain circles
(canyoneering/canyoning). Especially fed out of a throw bag clipped
to the harness (no tangle).
For 60 meter rappels, 7mm rope + 6mm pull cord weighs a ton less than
two 7's or 8's. Less space too.
YMMV.
Brian in SLC
Mr.T
I dont see it up on TradGirl, it is still there?
Lg
> "David Kastrup" <David....@t-online.de> wrote in message
> > lg...@hotmail.com (Lg) writes:
> > > When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> > > single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> > > device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> > > on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> > > link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> > > sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> > > obvious reasons.
> >
> > I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed.
>
> Yup. Someone else said they put a biner in the knot. Gee, why
> not just tie a nut or cam in there? That would surely get stuck on
> the pull.
A lot of rap pulls are clean and by simply adding a biner will cause
no hindrance. You look down and if it looks bad then adding a biner
really isn't the best thing to do.
And as I said before, pulling a small diameter rope is
> difficult if there's any sort of friction, and you don't want to prussik
> it!
> Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> In my experience, this is rare!
>
> - Lord Slime
This method is a fast and light method utilized best for back country
descents where one would be prepared with rings/links/webbing and not
having established rap anchors.
Lg
Lg
> lg...@hotmail.com (Lg) writes:
>
> > When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> > single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> > device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> > on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> > link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> > sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> > obvious reasons.
>
> I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed.
Never seen or heard of it happening, but we know anything can happen.
Simply observing the knot size and the ring size should alleviate this
presumption. By putting some weight on the knot you can see what it's
gonna do, even while you're still clipped into the anchor. 5/16" quick
links work best.
It would
> appear to me that placing a metal disk between knot and rap ring
> might be one idea: if the inner diameter of the disk is smaller than
> that of the ring, and the outer diameter is larger than that of the
> ring, whatever squeezes through the disk should easily fit through
> the ring, and the disk should be safe from slipping through. Of
> course, you get additional worries:
>
> a) edges on the disk harming the rope?
> b) will the rigid disk be placing an uneven load on the ring, perhaps
> causing failure somewhere?
>
> But at least if the rope gets jammed in the disk, this is not a real
> problem since, as opposed to the ring, you will be pulling the disk
> down together with the rope.
>
> Thoughts about this?
You gave me a great idea, thanks Dave. Originally I thought of (duct)
tape, which should be strong enough to block the knot. Not metal discs
but polycarbonate. I use these sheets made of polycarbonate that I got
at TAP Plastics. They are 1'w x 2'l, 32nds of an inch thick and I use
them to pad parts of the anchor and/or rope that come into contact
with the rock on TRs. Primarily to protect the rock, inspired by deep
grooves cut into sandstone by unprotected TR setups. But these sheets
also preserve your soft ware as well. The stuff is indestructible,
very rigid but flexes some too, I drilled out little holes in the
corners to tie them off so they stay in place and don't go zinging
down the rock. I would get 16th of an inch material for even more
rigidity, drill out circular discs (2 1/4" dia.) and a hole just big
enough for the rope. It would be nothing to carry a few in your pocket
but really you should only need one. This should put any queasy
partner at rest. I'll test it on the next trip coming up. Let me know
if you want one Dave. If you don't hear from me in about a month,
well, you'll know it didn't work. We'll call 'em Knot Bloks!
Lg
Karl Baba
routes where I don't expect to use em.
That said, it's better than nothing. One way to make it easier to pull
the small cord is to tie a munter hitch on a big biner. Pull on the
biner and the small rope after the biner at the same time to retreive
the rope, then slide up the munter hitch and repeat until pulling gets
easy
Peace
karl
--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/
Dawn Alguard
>
> I dont see it up on TradGirl, it is still there?
The most applicable FAQ section is at
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/advanced.htm#secondrope which has
a link to John's article on Google at
http://groups.google.com/groups?hl=en&safe=off&selm=39E748D6.DD8B94D7%40fake.hp.com
Dawn
Michael Boos
Try, don't guess. I've tried with 6 mm and a thin single rope,
it works flawlessly. I always thread both lines through the
rappelling device (figure 8) and do not take the risk that the
knot would slip (although unexpectedly) through the ring.
Another story is whether the thin line gets more tangled or not -
of course it gets tangled more, and a still thinner line probably
still more. Keep it in your backpack in a way that it may be
pulled out during rappelling, that normally works well. Tangling
is not unexpected, all coins have two sides.
--
*********************
L. Michael Boos
CH-8001 Zuerich
*********************
to e-mail remove 4 dots from left to right
Lord Slime
> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in
> > > lg...@hotmail.com (Lg) writes:
> > > > When using the "retrieval cord" method, you don't rappel with the
> > > > single rope and the small diameter cord together through the rappel
> > > > device. You rappel off a jammed knot (figure 8 on a bight) you fix
> > > > on the end of the single rope after you thread the rap ring, quick
> > > > link or bight of webbing, whichever you decide to use. You must be
> > > > sure the fixed knot is big enough not to go through the ring, for
> > > > obvious reasons.
> > > I would presume that the knot can easily get partly jammed.
> > Yup. Someone else said they put a biner in the knot. Gee, why
> > not just tie a nut or cam in there?
> Ugh...
>
> There is a nice rappel trick with a piton and a rapide....shoot, you
> only need one rope for that...(rap with pin under tension, then give
> the rope a hippy hippy shake, out fall pin, down comes rope). Or, rap
> off a Pika Aardvark and give the rope a shake. Eeek. Closed course,
> professional driver only.
And *only* in certain, somewhat antiseptic, situations (the first requirement
is that there's a rapide of a certain size). NOT halfway down a 5 rap
descent that has lot's of things for the rope to get stuck on.
> > That would surely get stuck on the pull. And as I said before, pulling a small
diameter rope is difficult if there's any sort of friction, and you don't want to
prussik it!
>
> If stuck, you'd prussic up against the knot on the fat rope...unless
> of course you managed a partial retrieval...(ouch, this happened to
> some friends of mine. Glad they had spare rope).
This is what *usually* happens, fer godssake! Why do you think
we (climbers) have all these debates about what knot to use so
it doesn't get stuck, eh?
> > Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> > size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> > In my experience, this is rare!
> Most seem to carry the size that would work for their rope diameter...
Most people carry NOTHING for the rappel.
> Check out the Petzl website. Click on Canyoning techniques then
> "Classic abseil/rappel". In the schematic, replace the single fatty,
> with a thin cord on the pull side. Viola.
I'm not going to bother. But somehow, don't you think you're preaching
to the choir here? I'm the guy who wrote the article about how to safely
rappel with a lead line and a 7 or 8mm skinny rope. Doh!
> Its an easy thing to check out from the safety of the hangboard.
> Sling on hangboard, thread on a rapide, tie 6mm pull cord to 7 or 8mm
> rap line. Position knot against rapide. Then pull on the pull cord.
> Rap on the rap line. Easy as pie.
TOTAL BULLSHIT. The rope never gets stuck in your fucking
basement or in the gym. What a moron. Why don't you tell people
to go "test" this 50m off the deck!
> I usually leave about 14" of tail. Pull is easy.
Sorry Brian, you just dropped another notch. Sure pulling is
easy off your fucking hangboard.
[snip of more self-rationalizing bullshit]
> 6mm pull cords are pretty popular in certain circles
> (canyoneering/canyoning). Especially fed out of a throw bag clipped
> to the harness (no tangle).
And of course Brian never rappels when it's windy. It's always calm
when he climbs in the desert (i.e. BULLSHIT).
> For 60 meter rappels, 7mm rope + 6mm pull cord weighs a ton less than
> two 7's or 8's. Less space too.
And who is it that's lead climbing on a 7mm rope? Are you somehow
on the wrong newsgroup?
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in message
> > not just tie a nut or cam in there? That would surely get stuck on
> > the pull.
>
> A lot of rap pulls are clean and by simply adding a biner will cause
> no hindrance. You look down and if it looks bad then adding a biner
> really isn't the best thing to do.
I must agree that, as I said in an earlier post, that *some* antiseptic
rappels can be done this way. However, I also subscribe to the motto
of "Do it right and do it the same way every time" so that mistakes aren't
made.
If you somehow know that the raps are clean and straight-forward, it's
not going to be windy and want to take a 3mm pull cords (and negate
some of that weight savings by taking a half-dozen rapides of the
correct size), fine go for it.
But most people/groups don't know what the raps will be like, and
climb in the real world, where wind, rope-eating cracks and rappel
daemons live!
> > Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> > size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> > In my experience, this is rare!
> This method is a fast and light method utilized best for back country
> descents where one would be prepared with rings/links/webbing and not
> having established rap anchors.
And hopefully, this extra stuff is somewhat lighter than the weight savings
gained by having a thin rope? Gee, take a piss.
And I'd like to point out that backcountry raps are the ones with the most
rappel daemons!
- Lord Slime
Lord Slime
> I only carry a 60 meter 5 mil pull cord as an emergency measure on
> routes where I don't expect to use em.
>
> That said, it's better than nothing. One way to make it easier to pull
> the small cord is to tie a munter hitch on a big biner. Pull on the
> biner and the small rope after the biner at the same time to retreive
> the rope, then slide up the munter hitch and repeat until pulling gets
> easy
While your partner latches on with a prussik above (attached to his
harness), to allow you to suck up the slack and lock the munter again.
What happens is that the stretch in the lead rope often makes the
whole system a slingshot.
- Lord Slime
Brian in SLC
> > > Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> > > size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> > > In my experience, this is rare!
> > Most seem to carry the size that would work for their rope diameter...
>
> Most people carry NOTHING for the rappel.
When the activity of the day is rappelling (ie canyoneering), then
most carry gear to facilitate a rappel.
> > Check out the Petzl website. Click on Canyoning techniques then
> > "Classic abseil/rappel". In the schematic, replace the single fatty,
> > with a thin cord on the pull side. Viola.
>
> I'm not going to bother. But somehow, don't you think you're preaching
> to the choir here? I'm the guy who wrote the article about how to safely
> rappel with a lead line and a 7 or 8mm skinny rope. Doh!
Schematic on the Petzl site shows rappelling off a knot on a single
strand.
> > Its an easy thing to check out from the safety of the hangboard.
> > Sling on hangboard, thread on a rapide, tie 6mm pull cord to 7 or 8mm
> > rap line. Position knot against rapide. Then pull on the pull cord.
> > Rap on the rap line. Easy as pie.
>
> TOTAL BULLSHIT. The rope never gets stuck in your fucking
> basement or in the gym. What a moron. Why don't you tell people
> to go "test" this 50m off the deck!
Because I'm safe and a nice person. I'd never push a new technique
onto someone in a situation that could be fatal.
Its an easy technique to model in a safe location. YMMV.
> > I usually leave about 14" of tail. Pull is easy.
>
> Sorry Brian, you just dropped another notch. Sure pulling is
> easy off your fucking hangboard.
Was there further to drop?
Easy to see how the system works with no penalty points.
> > 6mm pull cords are pretty popular in certain circles
> > (canyoneering/canyoning). Especially fed out of a throw bag clipped
> > to the harness (no tangle).
>
> And of course Brian never rappels when it's windy. It's always calm
> when he climbs in the desert (i.e. BULLSHIT).
Deep in canyons, usually calm. Might be windy on the mesa, but,
usually much calmer over the rim. Feeding a pull cord clipped to your
harness from a throw bags really helps, especially if its windy.
> > For 60 meter rappels, 7mm rope + 6mm pull cord weighs a ton less than
> > two 7's or 8's. Less space too.
>
> And who is it that's lead climbing on a 7mm rope? Are you somehow
> on the wrong newsgroup?
> - Lord Slime
I've led on a sterling 7.6mm...but...
Here's how the thread started:
"I'm asking to myself why kevlar (aramide) or dyneema (polyethilene)
accessory cords aren't diffused as a means of rappelling. I am a
canyoneer
(from Italy), and (you know) in canyoning are used 10 mm polyammide
static
ropes."
Yeah, you're right, I'm in the wrong newsgroup.
This was better debated/discussed outside rec.climbing.
Brian in SLC
Lg
snip
>
> I must agree that, as I said in an earlier post, that *some* antiseptic
> rappels can be done this way. However, I also subscribe to the motto
> of "Do it right and do it the same way every time" so that mistakes aren't
> made.
Well I knew we weren't exactly alike brother. I agree to a point, but
doing it the same way every time? I was surprised you said that.
Sounds a bit rigid for me with the wide variance in climbing
situations. I tend to subscribe to being able to utilize a variety of
techniques with confidence at will.
> If you somehow know that the raps are clean and straight-forward, it's
> not going to be windy and want to take a 3mm pull cords (and negate
> some of that weight savings by taking a half-dozen rapides of the
> correct size), fine go for it.
I wouldn't be caught with 3mm, 5 or 6 mil maybe, 7 for sure.
Regardless of the conditions pulling raps is pulling raps in relation
to the lightweight method you've written about or the superfly way off
the knot with cords 7mm or less.
> But most people/groups don't know what the raps will be like, and
> climb in the real world, where wind, rope-eating cracks and rappel
> daemons live!
That's true. Even with all the beta some people just seem to be
snake-bit.
>
> > > Lastly, this method presumes there's rap rings of some standard
> > > size and strength (eg. cross-loaded strength) at all rap points.
> > > In my experience, this is rare!
> > This method is a fast and light method utilized best for back country
> > descents where one would be prepared with rings/links/webbing and not
> > having established rap anchors.
>
> And hopefully, this extra stuff is somewhat lighter than the weight savings
> gained by having a thin rope? Gee, take a piss.
As you knew . . the weight of a dozen lightweight aluminum rings is
appx. 1/3 of a lb. The wt. of my 9.4 Stinger is 7.8 lbs. and 50m of
7mm static is about 4 lbs. A gal going into the backcountry is already
going to have at least 1/2 her runners tied for options in bailing, so
that's not extra. Would you marry a woman who wouldn't go into the
backcountry with you? Never mind that's another thread.
>
> And I'd like to point out that backcountry raps are the ones with the most
> rappel daemons!
>
> - Lord Slime
Also watch out for fandangos! I think they came from the East coast.
They've been seen in New Mexico, Colorado and I've recently seen two
in the Valley.
Lg (ps. wish me luck)
Lord Slime
> > rappels can be done this way. However, I also subscribe to the motto
> > of "Do it right and do it the same way every time" so that mistakes aren't
> > made.
>
> Well I knew we weren't exactly alike brother. I agree to a point, but
> doing it the same way every time? I was surprised you said that.
> Sounds a bit rigid for me with the wide variance in climbing
> situations. I tend to subscribe to being able to utilize a variety of
> techniques with confidence at will.
Touche'. I meant that statement in the context of what ropes I
take. I like Karl B's little cord that he takes in case of some
*unplanned* rappels, for example.
But if I know I'm going to do 9 raps and haul a bag, I'm taking
a 7 or 8mm rope.
> > If you somehow know that the raps are clean and straight-forward, it's
> > not going to be windy and want to take a 3mm pull cords (and negate
> > some of that weight savings by taking a half-dozen rapides of the
> > correct size), fine go for it.
>
> I wouldn't be caught with 3mm, 5 or 6 mil maybe, 7 for sure.
> Regardless of the conditions pulling raps is pulling raps in relation
> to the lightweight method you've written about or the superfly way off
> the knot with cords 7mm or less.
From experience I think the 7mm static is the smallest rope I'll
use. From experience, smaller ropes tangle, get caught up on
things a lot, get caught by the wind, are hard to pull, etc.
Also, if using your method, you can't "swing" the rappels when you
are doing multiple rappels (ie. feed the pulling rope into the next
anchor).
> That's true. Even with all the beta some people just seem to be
> snake-bit.
I totally agree! This year I was screwed by three stuck rappels
(two on one route!). When one of us finally got to the 'stick' we
couldn't believe the thing wouldn't pull. The last one was the
worst. After prussiking up the entire rope, resetting the knot
etc., it still was a total bitch to pull! And for no apparent reason!
- Lord Slime
Karl Baba
<jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote:
> > That's true. Even with all the beta some people just seem to be
> > snake-bit.
>
> I totally agree! This year I was screwed by three stuck rappels
> (two on one route!). When one of us finally got to the 'stick' we
> couldn't believe the thing wouldn't pull. The last one was the
> worst. After prussiking up the entire rope, resetting the knot
> etc., it still was a total bitch to pull! And for no apparent reason!
>
> - Lord Slime
Some kind a Ju Ju in the air this year. I've had ropes hang in a bunch
a places that they didn't hang in previous times. That's why I'm
posting it to usenet right now. It's a Murphy's Law antimatter luck
changer
Peace
Karl