Bibler Tents
sma...@imu.edu
How good are those Bibler Tents? I've seen some posts here stating that
they are the best. Can they take the hurricane force winds at high
altitude?
Clyde Soles
<sma...@imu.edu> wrote:
Yes Todd's tents are among the best. But it is worth noting that a
hurricane force wind at high altitude is *nothing* like a hurricane
force wind at low altitude.
TheSeaGorn
they are good (and expensive!) tents. We used one in teh Wind Rivers, and it
was nice and quiet..the single wall feature is awesome.
Nick
sma...@imu.edu wrote:
>
> How good are those Bibler Tents? I've seen some posts here stating that
> they are the best. Can they take the hurricane force winds at high
> altitude?
*Bibler tents are the strongest, lightest, and most waterproof tents in
the WORLD. They are very expensive however, and because of this, I don't
own a tent yet. I will not purchase a tent until I have enough money for
a Bibler Bombshelter which runs about $985.00...... Up til now we have
used my friend's Quest Headwall, which has been reliable for our
purposes.
Bibler tents can take hurricane force winds at any altitude. I've heard
accounts of other parties tents breaking up and people all piling into
the Bibler to keep alive.
No one sells them any cheaper than buying direct that I have EVER seen,
so just start saving and buy it.
Nick.
Yummygoop
<nickm...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>*Bibler tents are the strongest, lightest, and most waterproof tents in
>the WORLD. ...[snip]...Bibler tents can take hurricane force winds at any
altitude.
Uh, I beg to differ.
Winter '89, near 13,000 on Mt. Shasta (at the "step" on the Hotlam-Bolam route)
I was testing my gear, including a Bibler Eldorado, for its durability in heavy
storm weather. A storm front moved in at night, with winds flatting the roof of
the Bibler onto my face (I was lying down). The poles bent and the tent flapped
in the severe winds until the fabric started to rip apart one side. I packed my
gear and cut the tent loose from the tie downs and stuffed it into my backpack.
Even with a full pack I couldn't stand up (even hunched over) in the wind. I
was a more than little afraid of being blow off the ground and over a ridge
into the upper Hotlum glacier basin. I crawled down the couloir in what must
have been 60 mph gust. I couldn't breathe except by burrowing my face into my
jacket. The wind seemed to suck the air out of my mouth. After sending the tent
back Colorado for repairs, Todd Bibler would not repair it under warranty
because he said "it must have been pitched incorrectly." Don't believe the
hype, any tent can fail.
Mark Scott-Nash
>But it is worth noting that a
>hurricane force wind at high altitude is *nothing* like a hurricane
>force wind at low altitude.
Actually, it's exactly the same.
How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
Mark Scott-Nash
In article <199804280726...@ladder03.news.aol.com>, yumm...@aol.com (Yummygoop) says:
>
>A storm front moved in at night, with winds flatting the roof of
>the Bibler onto my face (I was lying down). The poles bent and the tent flapped
>in the severe winds until the fabric started to rip apart one side.
Any tent that is not properly secured, including tying down all guy lines, can
collapse in high winds.
Two weekends ago I spent a wonderful night in an I-tent in a hurricane here in
Colorado. The Bibler I-tent I was in withstood the wind very well, no bent or
broken poles. The North Face Mountain 25 that our friends were in had two poles
break.
Of course, this was a Bibler that was constructed by Bibler. Now that they are
own by BD, I can't vouch for the quality.
Henry
Except that at high altitude the air is less dense, so air travelling at
the same speed should have less momentum, and be less damaging to tents.
Anyone care to calculate the difference in force on the wall of a tent
pitched in a 100mph wind in a campsite on the north coast of Scotland, and
at a high camp on Everest?
Henry.
--
Henry Lickorish
ETH-Zurich
he...@erdw.ethz.ch
Clyde Soles
Mark Scott-Nash <Mark...@nospam.hp.com> wrote:
> Actually, it's exactly the same.
>
> How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
> force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
> 50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
Thank you for playing. Next contestant please.
greg
On 28 Apr 1998 14:53:05 GMT, Mark...@nospam.hp.com (Mark Scott-Nash)
wrote:
>In article <1d85x44.1yu...@166-93-69-150.rmi.net>, cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) says:
>
>>But it is worth noting that a
>>hurricane force wind at high altitude is *nothing* like a hurricane
>>force wind at low altitude.
>
>Actually, it's exactly the same.
>
>How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
>force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
>50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
Serious question, Clyde. What is the difference?
greg
Mark Scott-Nash
In article <1d86v7b.18t...@166-93-69-242.rmi.net>, cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) says:
>
>Mark Scott-Nash <Mark...@nospam.hp.com> wrote:
>
>> Actually, it's exactly the same.
>>
>> How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
>> force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
>> 50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
>
I made this claim a few years back and was "enlightened" to the fact
that measuring wind speed is not as simple as it sounds. The
only useful way to measure it is with a force indicator. Think about
it. A force indicator will measure 50mph as 50mph no matter where you
are. And for all practicality, this is all that matters to a tent at
altitude.
What people tend to think about is that there are fewer air molecules
at altitude and thus there needs to be a higher average velocity of
these molecules to get the same force. But you can't *measure* this
difference since any useful instrument will measure wind *force*.
Sven Khatri
In article <3545fa57...@news.cableinet.co.uk>,
greg <greg.mook@cableinet_AT_CO_DOT_UK> wrote:
>On 28 Apr 1998 14:53:05 GMT, Mark...@nospam.hp.com (Mark Scott-Nash)
>wrote:
>
>>In article <1d85x44.1yu...@166-93-69-150.rmi.net>, cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) says:
>>
>>>But it is worth noting that a
>>>hurricane force wind at high altitude is *nothing* like a hurricane
>>>force wind at low altitude.
>>
>>
>>How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
>>force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
>>50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
>
>
>greg
Lower Air Density -> Less Momentum
Sven
--
Sven http://www.cco.caltech.edu/~skhatri/khatri.html
4.28171817154095 Shark Heart Villain
_______________________________________________________________________________
IceWeezel
I own 3 Biblers (I-tent, Bomb Shelter, Bivy) and have used them extensivley
(20+ trips per year) in the Rockies and Cascades without any problems
(except the cost). They are constructed for long term, heavy duty use. I
have spend a number of nights, and days for that matter, in them in 70-90
mph winds, the Boulderfield comes to mind. Be advised though that being a
single wall tent they have some limitations as far as venting goes...it was
a bit damp in the Cascades (what else is new). There was a good review in
R&I last year?? (clyde) that deatils a lot of this info. they also look at
other single walls, though IMHO Bibler is still the best!! Oh, my stuff was
also built by Bibler when here in Boulder so I can't speak for the quality
now that BD has it.
Be safe, Have BIG fun
Mark Scott-Nash wrote in message <6i4qrb$elt$2...@ocean.cup.hp.com>...
maohai huang
Mark Scott-Nash (Mark...@hp.com) wrote:
: What people tend to think about is that there are fewer air molecules
: at altitude and thus there needs to be a higher average velocity of
: these molecules to get the same force. But you can't *measure* this
: difference since any useful instrument will measure wind *force*.
really? what about Doppler radars? Weather ballons? they sure measure
air flow speed. an example more relevant to climbing, you can look at the
snow plume zipping by on the ridge, across the col, or over the top of
a mountain to guestimate the *speed* of wind. if you know the speed,
the force is about proportional to density*v*v
at 10K feet air density is about 2/3 of that at sea level. On everest
it is about 1/3.
A hurricane is a storm with wind faster than 73 mph. it boils down to
what "hurricane force" mean. If you say it is the "force" part that
matters, you are right in saying that same force is the same force
every where. but when people compare wind with "hurricane", they
usually mean speed.
maohai huang
Yummygoop (yumm...@aol.com) wrote:
: Don't believe the
: hype, any tent can fail.
that is absolutely right. Good guying technique and camp spot
selection can probably make bigger difference than a $800 tent can
make over a $400 one. some tents are more tricky to pitch well than
others ( Stepenson's )
Mark Scott-Nash
>really? what about Doppler radars? Weather ballons? they sure measure
>air flow speed.
Both measure the effect of aggregate air molecules force on objects.
A doppler radar measures the speed of water or debris in the air. These
objects are affected by the same force as any other air speed indicator.
The same principal applies to a weather balloon.
>A hurricane is a storm with wind faster than 73 mph.
As measured by what?
>it boils down to
>what "hurricane force" mean. If you say it is the "force" part that
>matters, you are right in saying that same force is the same force
>every where. but when people compare wind with "hurricane", they
>usually mean speed.
Clyde would have been slightly more accurate if he'd said "hurricane
*speed* winds", true. However, it still makes little difference since
hurricane speed winds at sea level are measured with the same force
indicators as high altitude winds (as on an airplane, for instance).
Kenneth Cline
In article <6i54k0$gj3$1...@ocean.cup.hp.com>, Mark...@nospam.hp.com (Mark Scott-Nash) writes:
|> In article <6i53l7$f4t$1...@news1.bu.edu>, mhu...@bu.edu (maohai huang) says:
|>
|> >really? what about Doppler radars? Weather ballons? they sure measure
|> >air flow speed.
|>
|> Both measure the effect of aggregate air molecules force on objects.
|> A doppler radar measures the speed of water or debris in the air. These
|> objects are affected by the same force as any other air speed indicator.
|> The same principal applies to a weather balloon.
I was going to stay out of this thread before reading Mark's latest
tales, but just can't restrain myself anymore.
First of all, a weather balloon is going to accellerate until it is
moving at pretty darned close to the velocity of the wind it is
traveling in. Measure the balloon's speed and you know the wind speed.
This is in effect a large tracer anemometer.
But this isn't the end of the story. There are several other types of
gas flow meters, including displacement, velocity, head, thermal,
acoustic, and tracer. They rely on Bernouli's principal, the Doppler
Effect, and other theories of fluid flow. Some provide accurate wind
speed measurement at a variety of temperatures and pressures. Go look
up the patents if you are interested. US Patent #5343744, for example,
describes an ultrasonic wind sensor that computes wind speed independent
of pressure, temperature, and humidity.
|> Clyde would have been slightly more accurate if he'd said "hurricane
|> *speed* winds", true. However, it still makes little difference since
|> hurricane speed winds at sea level are measured with the same force
|> indicators as high altitude winds (as on an airplane, for instance).
Wrongo. Just because aircraft use pitot tube based instruments, which
do not provide accurate velocity indications as density changes, for
"airspeed" measurement doesn't mean other instruments have the same
properties.
By the way, this "inaccurate" airspeed instrument is preferred in
aircraft because the same Bernouli theorem that the instrument relies on
is what explains how an airfoil works. The uncorrected airspeed is
better for estimating the aircraft's tendency to stall.
One more thing, while I'm at it. Most of the techniques used to measure
wind speed do not rely on the wind's force to determine velocity.
Inspector Cline, CPP
"I'm not an expert on fluid flow, but I play one on the internet"
R...@minvo.net
> back Colorado for repairs, Todd Bibler would not repair it under warranty
> hype, any tent can fail.
Yeah I heard about Bibler's reluctance to fix his products under
warranty. Seems absurb for something so costly when tents that sell for
about 50-60% less like TNF and Sierra Designs ones are supported by
their respective companies so well. Makes you wonder...
Sean Parker
This is one reason why I stick with the large plaster every magazine
page advertising companies. You send them something broke and they send
it right back, new and free.
Also note that Bibler will not do any non warranty repairs, even if you
are willing to pay.
> jacket. The wind seemed to suck the air out of my mouth. After sending the tent
Nick
*I find that amazing, that even under warranty they do not repair or
replace. I think that the better business bureau should be informed in
that case??
Nick.
Nick
Forget about wind tests etc. I see people who did not get warranty
service here from Bibler. I think Rock & Ice should investigate this,
and get it all straightened out. If the guy is selling thousand dollar
tents, they at LEAST should be repaired under warranty. I think it's an
atrocity if it's not checked into.
Nick.
Clyde Soles
Sean Parker <spa...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Also note that Bibler will not do any non warranty repairs, even if you
> are willing to pay.
>
FWIW Black Diamond now owns Bibler so old gripes don't necessarily
apply. In general if you have non-warranty repairs for any brand
product, it is much faster to go to services such as Boulder Mountain
Repair or Rainy Pass.
> > jacket. The wind seemed to suck the air out of my mouth. After sending
> > the tent back Colorado for repairs, Todd Bibler would not repair it
> > under warranty because he said "it must have been pitched incorrectly."
> > Don't believe the hype, any tent can fail.
From this description, I would agree with him. Properly pitched means
fully guyed. You are correct though, any tent can fail given the right
(worst?) conditions. That doesn't mean it was defective in materials or
workmanship which is what a warranty is about.
Don Porter
Nick wrote:
>
> No one sells them any cheaper than buying direct that I have EVER seen,
> so just start saving and buy it.
No so, see http://www.killerdeals.com/killertent.html#biblerkdtents
Yummygoop
I wrote:
> > ...jacket. The wind seemed to suck the air out of my mouth. After sending
> > the tent back Colorado for repairs, Todd Bibler would not repair it
> > under warranty because he said "it must have been pitched incorrectly."
> > Don't believe the hype, any tent can fail.
then cso...@rmi.net wrote:
:From this description, I would agree with him. Properly pitched means
:fully guyed. You are correct though, any tent can fail given the right
:(worst?) conditions. That doesn't mean it was defective in materials or
:workmanship which is what a warranty is about.
The tent was guyed at all points possible. The spot was extremely exposed, no
shelter from anything whatsoever. I think it likely that any brand of tent
would have similarly ripped apart. The tent would flatten (all the way to the
ground) then spring back up, flatten then spring up, repeatedly for several
hours. Obviously I picked a good spot to test the tent to the fullest, but also
learned even the best tents cannot withstand fierce weather if not pitched in a
sheltered spot (eg behinds rocks or in a deep snow hole).
Brutus of Wyde
> cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) writes:
> > > jacket. The wind seemed to suck the air out of my mouth. After sending
> > > the tent back Colorado for repairs, Todd Bibler would not repair it
> > > under warranty because he said "it must have been pitched incorrectly."
> > > Don't believe the hype, any tent can fail.
>
> From this description, I would agree with him. Properly pitched means
> fully guyed. You are correct though, any tent can fail given the right
> (worst?) conditions. That doesn't mean it was defective in materials or
> workmanship which is what a warranty is about.
In my book, properly pitched means fully guyed, with major wind walls
or a crevasse surrounding the tent. Inside a snow cave is also good.
And very few tents will keep you comfortable unless you shovel
when 6' of snow falls in 12 hours. Ja, any tent can fail...
'course one could always build an aluminum and kevlar box ala Cerro Torre...
FWIW, IMHO, I think the Bibler I is one of the best tents on the market
today for my purposes, except that my dog, Toto, is able to drag it off
when I don't stake it properly and then use the guy lines (Are guy lines
lines repaired with duct tape?) to anchor his leash...
Brutus
Todd Bibler
On Tue, 28 Apr 1998, Sean Parker wrote:
> This is one reason why I stick with the large plaster every magazine
> page advertising companies. You send them something broke and they send
> it right back, new and free.
>
> Also note that Bibler will not do any non warranty repairs, even if you
> are willing to pay.
We do honor the warranty on Bibler Tents, which is a guarantee against
defects in workmanship and materials.
Repairs are all referred to Rainy Pass Repair in Seattle, who do an
excellent job, with a fast turn-around, for a reasonable price.
Proper pitching of a tent includes finding or building an appropriate
site, which admittedly can sometimes be difficult while mountaineering,
but that's part of the adventure.
Cheers, Todd
Todd Bibler (tbi...@bdel.com)
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
Mark Scott-Nash
In article <6i5f46$e7v$1...@goldenapple.srv.cs.cmu.edu>, cli...@silver.fox.cs.cmu.edu (Kenneth Cline) says:
>
>I was going to stay out of this thread before reading Mark's latest
>tales, but just can't restrain myself anymore.
>
>First of all, a weather balloon is going to accellerate until it is
>moving at pretty darned close to the velocity of the wind it is
>traveling in. Measure the balloon's speed and you know the wind speed.
>This is in effect a large tracer anemometer.
>
True, I forgot to take into account force over time (as with a weather
balloon or other suspended object(s)) into account. Unfortunately, you
don't get this effect with a tent.
|> Clyde would have been slightly more accurate if he'd said "hurricane
|> *speed* winds", true. However, it still makes little difference since
|> hurricane speed winds at sea level are measured with the same force
|> indicators as high altitude winds (as on an airplane, for instance).
>
>Wrongo. Just because aircraft use pitot tube based instruments, which
>do not provide accurate velocity indications as density changes, for
>"airspeed" measurement doesn't mean other instruments have the same
>properties.
Yeah.
I originally posed the premise:
How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that
measures force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a
50mph wind is a 50mph wind no matter what altitude it is
measured at.
And later,
What people tend to think about is that there are fewer air
molecules at altitude and thus there needs to be a higher
average velocity of these molecules to get the same force.
But you can't *measure* this difference since any useful
instrument will measure wind *force*.
Poorly worded. I should have said you can't measure this difference
with a force indicator.
Clyde Soles
Yummygoop <yumm...@aol.com> wrote:
> The tent was guyed at all points possible. The spot was extremely exposed,
> no shelter from anything whatsoever. I think it likely that any brand of
> tent would have similarly ripped apart. The tent would flatten (all the
> way to the ground) then spring back up, flatten then spring up, repeatedly
> for several hours. Obviously I picked a good spot to test the tent to the
> fullest, but also learned even the best tents cannot withstand fierce
> weather if not pitched in a sheltered spot (eg behinds rocks or in a deep
> snow hole).
Yep, that isn't a warranty then. Any tent would have a hard time in that
situation though ones with more poles would have faired better. FWIW
there is huge room for improvement in pole technology. Easton T9 is
unfortunately the industry standard but these leave a lot to be desired.
Clyde Soles
greg <greg.mook@cableinet_AT_CO_DOT_UK> wrote:
> Serious question, Clyde. What is the difference?
50 mph at sea level will have you grabbing trees to hold on, at 20,000
feet it's just a stiff breeze.
maohai huang
Todd Bibler (tbi...@bdel.com) wrote:
: Repairs are all referred to Rainy Pass Repair in Seattle, who do an
: excellent job, with a fast turn-around, for a reasonable price.
good to hear from you Todd! So does Rainy Pass Repair use the same
material for the floor as the originals? Someone used to post his
miserable story of finally getting tent floor fixed ( pinholes by pine
needles ) by RPP. but the tent gained some weight due to heavier
material was used.
bd...@skyview.net
> Yep, that isn't a warranty then. Any tent would have a hard time in that
> situation though ones with more poles would have faired better. FWIW
> there is huge room for improvement in pole technology. Easton T9 is
> unfortunately the industry standard but these leave a lot to be desired.
Regardless of the fine points and arguability of the proper tent
pitching, the bottom line to me is that Bibler doesn't seem to support
its products as much as a lot of the other tent makers out there. I
don't own one but the general consensus it is a excellent tent.
The problem arise when is if you try to return the tent for warranty
work. Be prepared to face some tough times. Quite a contrast from the
people who reported how the people at TNF bend over backwards trying to
make you happy. I don't own a TNF tent either, BTW.
I have a business and use to treat my customers like Bibler because I
felt strongly that I was in the right, and it was a matter of principle.
I have learned a lot since then, most notably that if the customer
doesn't feel good about the performance of the product, then I take his
word for it. That is the bottom line. Those of us business need to
look at the situation from the customers perspective. I know my
business is better because of the change in my attitude.
Henry
In article <1d88vxh.uey...@166-93-69-31.rmi.net>, cso...@rmi.net
(Clyde Soles) wrote:
No trees at 20k.
Clyde Soles
Henry <he...@erdw.ethz.ch> wrote:
> No trees at 20k.
What, you don't carry inflatable palm trees and a few pink flamingos?
You can't have a decent climb with the proper ambiance.
Kenneth Cline
Mark Scott-Nash wrote:
>
> >First of all, a weather balloon is going to accellerate until it is
> >moving at pretty darned close to the velocity of the wind it is
> >traveling in. Measure the balloon's speed and you know the wind speed.
> >This is in effect a large tracer anemometer.
> True, I forgot to take into account force over time (as with a weather
> balloon or other suspended object(s)) into account. Unfortunately, you
> don't get this effect with a tent.
Not only did you forget to take this into account, you denied that
direct wind-speed measurement was possible (it is: for one thing, the
speed of sound is relative to wind speed). You went on to say that wind
force and wind speed are the same thing. The bottom line is that Clyde
is completely correct when he says that the force of a 50 mph wind is
much less at high altitude than at sea level.
> |> Clyde would have been slightly more accurate if he'd said "hurricane
> |> *speed* winds", true. However, it still makes little difference since
> |> hurricane speed winds at sea level are measured with the same force
> |> indicators as high altitude winds (as on an airplane, for instance).
> >
> >Wrongo. Just because aircraft use pitot tube based instruments, which
> >do not provide accurate velocity indications as density changes, for
> >"airspeed" measurement doesn't mean other instruments have the same
> >properties.
>
> Yeah.
>
> I originally posed the premise:
>
> How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that
> measures force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a
> 50mph wind is a 50mph wind no matter what altitude it is
> measured at.
>
> And later,
>
> What people tend to think about is that there are fewer air
> molecules at altitude and thus there needs to be a higher
> average velocity of these molecules to get the same force.
> But you can't *measure* this difference since any useful
> instrument will measure wind *force*.
>
> Poorly worded. I should have said you can't measure this difference
> with a force indicator.
There actually are force anemometers, but they are not common (mass flow
can also be ascertained indirectly by Bernouli's principle and
measurement of convective heat loss, among other methods). To measure
wind speed on a mountain, you'll probably use a cup or propeller
anemometer, which depends primarily on velocity, not mass flow. For
example, the Kestrel 1000 (a $99 hand-held propeller anemometer), is
rated to display true wind speed with accuracy of +/-3%. The
manufacturer of my home weather station assures me that the cup
anemometer reads wind velocity, not mass flow (or "force" as you call
it).
By the way, I can distill a trivial tautology based on your claims: A
wind strong enough to blow down a tent, whether at sea level or high
altitude, is strong enough to blow down a tent. I'll happily stop
complaining when you admit this is your claim.
Regards,
Ken
James Sneeringer
bd...@skyview.net wrote:
: Regardless of the fine points and arguability of the proper tent
: pitching, the bottom line to me is that Bibler doesn't seem to support
: its products as much as a lot of the other tent makers out there.
: I don't own one but the general consensus it is a excellent tent.
: I don't own a TNF tent either, BTW.
Your e-testimony is therefore second-hand and circumstantial, and worthless
to those looking for answers.
--
James
Yummygoop
In response to a post about a Bibler tent getting destroyed by high winds and
not getting repaired under warranty <spa...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>But how does Bibler know that is was not properly pitched?
>I guess he could just say this about every return. What recourse would
>you have?
What was ironic was that I had purposely pitched the tent in a very exposed
spot in order to test it in high winds. The magazine advertisements for Bibler
tents at the time (1989) featured multiple testimonials from people waiting
out storms in their Biblers while 100+ mph wind storms raged outside. Since I
was planning to take this tent to Aconcagua, I wanted to know for sure if I
could depend on it in the famous "white winds" up high. Unlike other peaks such
as Denali where you can dig a 6 foot deep pit in the snow and pitch your tent,
or at least cut blocks (in hard snow) and build significant snow walls,
Aconcagua has a lot of talus and rock on the normal route, so you might have to
pitch your tent in less than ideally sheltered conditions (esp. if alll the
rock wall shleters are occupied or you are doing an obscure route) .This can
also be the case in many high mountains in late season, when the glaciers are
ice hard and wind swept. If you can't find a crevasse to bivy in, you may have
to set up a tent in a unsheltered spot. As a result, you and your tent will get
worked if it really starts to blow. How many of you I have s
Yummygoop
(continuation of the my last post which was cut off)
....How many of you I have spent the night holding up a tent with your back to
the wall huddled by your hastily packed pack waiting for that last wind gust to
rip the tent away from you? (..just a rhetorical question, but you get the
idea...)
The Bibler Co. may have been justified in its decision not to repair my tent,
but it that decision also diminished further purchases on my behalf. The reason
why I keep going back to buy gear from a company like, say, REI, is that REI is
very customer service friendly, esp. when it comes to returns. I bet I could
buy a tent from them, use it for several years, then return it because "the
color really doesn't suit me", and they'd probably give me a new one. Sure,
being too liberal with returns might invite abuse, but I bet repeat business
would more than compensate for this in the long run. Honoring a return is a
nice gesture, even if it might be a borderline return. Customers recognize
this, and shop accordingly.
Mad Dog
Mark Scott-Nash wrote:
>Clyde Soles) says:
>>But it is worth noting that a hurricane force wind at high altitude is >>*nothing* like a hurricane force wind at low altitude.
> Actually, it's exactly the same.
> How do you measure wind speed? If you use something that measures
> force, like an airspeed indicator or a tent wall, a 50mph wind is a
> 50mph wind no matter what altitude it is measured at.
It depends. At low altitude, there may be trees or other features that
can provide shelter. Obviously, one can build a stone wall at high
altitude, etc. And don't forget the effect of wind-chill at high
altitude, which can be more severe than at low altitude in many
instances.
MD
Brutus of Wyde
> Gary Clark wrote:
[snap, bend]
> it's light. I can't think
> of anything else good to say about this, or any single-walled tent, when
> compared with a classic 4-pole double wall tent. There's just no
> comparison.
No comparison between a 4-pole double wall tent
and the Buckingham Palace either. But the double wall tent
packs slightly smaller, and weighs slightly less than the
Buckingham. In that context, I can't think of anything
else good to say about it... Ummm... What was your point?
Bwootus
Al Zeller
I would guess that at high altitude wind chill would be less for
identical wind velocity. Cooling depends on mass flow, so on Everest
where the density is ~1/3 sea level, a 50 mph wind would move less mass
than in Chicago. This should mean less cooling.
How do you determine the velocity so that you are comparing wind speed
and not wind force? Presumably, doppler shift would yield the correct
speed. Other methods which measure wind force actually measure mass flow
times velocity, so 50 mph on Everest has the same mass flow as in
Chicago, only the actual velocity on Everest is ~3 times higher.
Al Zeller
James Sneeringer
Sean Parker (spa...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: This is not an old gripe. Bibler USED to do repairs for pay. Now that
: BD owns them they will NOT do non warranty repairs in house. BD will
: tell
: you to go to rainy pass I believe. Be sure to specify that they use
: original materials, they have fixed bibler tents before with just plain
: nylon.
: I wrote an email on this very subject and the reply was basically that
: they
: do not do non warranty repairs, go elsewhere and that they will supply
: their
: material to rainy pass but you have got to request it.
: I don't like this policy. I want the people who made the tent and really
: know
: what they are doing, not to mention the years of experience of making
: them, to
: fix my tent.
BD/Bibler does not do in house non-warranty repairs because of the size of
their sewing facilities. If they did, turn-around times could be as high as
two to three months. BTW, many of the manufacturers who do "their own" in
house repairs contract with places such as Rainy Pass to do the actual work.
The company simply processes the repair.
: But how does Bibler know that is was not properly pitched?
: I guess he could just say this about every return. What recourse would
: you have?
At some point business practices demand that the customer is not always
right. I am not going to let one person with a gripe, who has since
admitted that almost any tent would have failed in those conditions, ruin my
perception of company with such a great history of product design and
reliability. Even $700 dollar tents are not foolproof or indestructible. I
would say it is a fine testament to the current state of tent technology
that we even expect 6 pound packages of little aluminum poles and nylon
fabric to stand up to weather that can destroy a house, while keeping us
dry and warm.
--
James
bill...@aol.com
Yep, that is why I shop at places like REI, Campmor and Sierra Trading
Post. These folkss are tops in customer service.
Bibler makes good tents but has rotten customer service. I would buy an
Integral Design tent instead, just in case something went wrong with it.
Bibler reminds me of how the Wiggy's sleeping bag company treat their
customers.
Sean Parker
Someone (sorry I lost the post) mentioned that other manufactures send
thier
repairs to other places, just handle the transaction etc..
Although I would prefer that the manufacture performed the repair this
is
still ok with me. The manufacture is still taking 100% responsibility
for
the repair. On the other hand Bibler takes absolutely no responsibility
for
non warranty repairs and just reccomends rainy pass. I do not like the
fact that Bibler could care less about thier customers if the problem is
not
thier fault. They are basically telling you to leave them alone, it is
not our
fault, we can't help you. What type of customer service is that.
I have personally dealt with patagonia, TNF and mountainsmith's customer
service and they went way beyond what I would consider acceptable
customer
service in solving my problem. I was actually shocked at what they did.
Has anyone had to deal with Integral Designs? I need to replace my tent
and I really like the single wall designs. I do like Bibler tents but I
just can not purchase one knowing how they treat thier customers
compared
to other tent makers like TNF, Marmot, Mountain Hardware etc...
If Bibler would just go that extra mile, you would never hear anything
negative about them.
Sean
Clyde Soles
Sean Parker <spa...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
> Has anyone had to deal with Integral Designs? I need to replace my tent
> and I really like the single wall designs. I do like Bibler tents but I
> just can not purchase one knowing how they treat thier customers
> compared
> to other tent makers like TNF, Marmot, Mountain Hardware etc...
It would be a HUGE mistake to base your purchase decision on the hearsay
on this newsgroup. Read my review of single wall tents, look at several
options, then buy what works best for you. Despite a few whinners, the
vast majority of Bibler tent owners have been pleased. Also bear in mind
that there are more Bibler tents out there, that have been used on more
severe climbs, than all the other single walls combined. I'm certainly
not saying it's the only brand to consider, there are a few other worthy
contenders. There are also some real dogs too from companies who have
"awesome" customer service...they have more practice and you'll need
that service sooner.
rto...@mis.net
Yes! Having the manufacturer take care of the repair is saying they are
willing to support the purchaser and stand behind the product. Bibler
doesn't want to deal with stuff after the sale is made. It is their
right. There are a lot of companies that do that. It hurts their
bottom line.
Fortunately, there are other tents makers out there that don't share
this philosophy.
Sean Parker wrote:
>
> Someone (sorry I lost the post) mentioned that other manufactures send
> thier
> repairs to other places, just handle the transaction etc..
>
> Although I would prefer that the manufacture performed the repair this
> is
> still ok with me. The manufacture is still taking 100% responsibility
> for
> the repair. On the other hand Bibler takes absolutely no responsibility
> for
> non warranty repairs and just reccomends rainy pass. I do not like the
> fact that Bibler could care less about thier customers if the problem is
> not
> thier fault. They are basically telling you to leave them alone, it is
> not our
> fault, we can't help you. What type of customer service is that.
>
> I have personally dealt with patagonia, TNF and mountainsmith's customer
> service and they went way beyond what I would consider acceptable
> customer
> service in solving my problem. I was actually shocked at what they did.
>
> Has anyone had to deal with Integral Designs? I need to replace my tent
> and I really like the single wall designs. I do like Bibler tents but I
> just can not purchase one knowing how they treat thier customers
> compared
> to other tent makers like TNF, Marmot, Mountain Hardware etc...
>
Sean Parker
Clyde Soles wrote:
>
> on this newsgroup. Read my review of single wall tents, look at several
Is your review on the net? If so what is the URL and if not how do I get
a
copy.
Thanks,
Sean
Jim Hand
I agree completely withClyde on the fact that Todd Bibler has lots of
good tents out there in service. I am, however sold completely on
Integral Designs workmanship and materials. I have yet to encounter
problems with my stuff so I can't attest to the customer service angle.
I own a Sierra Designs Summit single wall as well. I am NOT a
completely satisfied customer on that item. It just is not as well
designed, constructed, as my old SD Tiros. Lots of dire warnings about
leaving it opened up a bit to avoid asphixiation stictched everywhere
inside. Hope it keeps out spindrift anyway, we shall soon see. I have
had great experiences with Sierra Designs warranty department regarding
some sleeping bag problems, (lite loft collapsing). Good luck!
Hal Murray
> And don't forget the effect of wind-chill at high
> altitude, which can be more severe than at low altitude in many
> instances.
I can't figure out what you are trying to say. Could you
please say more. Thanks.
--
These are my opinions, not necessarily my employers.
Clyde Soles
Jim Hand <jimm...@europa.com> wrote:
> I own a Sierra Designs Summit single wall as well. I am NOT a
> completely satisfied customer on that item. It just is not as well
> designed, constructed, as my old SD Tiros.
That was one of the dogs I was referring too (there are others, caveat
emptor). But they do have good customer service ;-)
James H. Hand
Clyde: Ya gotta admit tho, the Summit LOOKS real cool, huh? Seriously,
the one thing that is so frustrating about Integral Designs is that it
is hard to preview their stuff prior to parting with the fundage. I
have a Sola Expedition that I love dearly, but I havent nutted up to
order a full sized single wall. They have a lot of dark color/euro
colour stock and they can be pretty nebulous when you want to pin them
to a color. I do not want a dark blue or blood red tent and you have to
run that risk when ordering a custom tent evidently. They are always
good to talk to and haggle with. REI has their entry level bivy once in
a while, and Marmot Mountaineering in Seattle carries an item or two,
but I like to get my hands on the real thing, my screw up on the SD
Summit not withstanding.
By the way, have you heard from anybody else regarding the Garmin GPS 12
chip problem?? You won't hear about it from Garmin, but they will fix
it (replace the unit) if it goes gunnysack. The symptoms are, with a
"hot" fresh set of batteries, lithium or alkaline, no matter, the bad
chip sometimes shoots a jolt thru the small lithium back up on board
battery that protects your data and waypoints during long shut downs and
battery change events, destroying it completely. Result: waypoint mass
dump, no data, lost owner, really serious up here in the great
northwest. I suggested they might want to tell their customers about
it, but they seemed disinclined to do anything other than replace mine
for free. They said they had a batch of bad chips and they do not know
how many units got out that way. Scary part is, my wife and I both have
one and they both went bad after working well for several months.
Fortunately we were close to the car when the first one went. It's
always somethin', right?? I always enjoy your writing and insights!
Thanks for all the great advice over the years. By the way, which
single wall do you like best. I'm too long for the NF, so barring that
one.......? JHH
Todd Bibler
I'd like to address some comments that have been made here about Bibler
Tents quality, warranty policy, and repair policy.
First, since Bibler Tents became a part of Black Diamond, quality has
actually gotten better, due to tighter controls and specs on fabric
purchasing, newer and more modern sewing machines and seam taping
equipment, more active and professional "on the scene" manufacturing
management, and clearly defined inspection processes. I can happily say
that quality is an issue that is not compromised by Black Diamond.
We do honor our warranty, a guarantee against defects in workmanship and
materials, every time. Sometimes we even give the customer a break when
its clearly his fault. But we can not replace tents for any whim, or
realistically even tents that get destroyed by extreme weather. It is up
to the owner to take care of his equipment. Yes, we make the most
expensive tents, however that is due to the cost of the fabric used and
the fact that the manufacturing is done in the US, not high sales margins
nor high profit. I believe that we make the most comfortable, lightest
weight tents you can buy, and that is what you are paying for, not a
frivolous return policy.
Most of our repairs are done by Rainy Pass Repair in Seattle. Some kinds
of repairs we can do here. It is precisely because we DO care about our
customers that we refer repairs to Rainy Pass. They do an excellent job,
exactly the way I would do it, in a fast turn-around time, for a very
reasonable fee.
I hope this will set the record straight on these issues.
Cheers, Todd
Todd Bibler (tbi...@bdel.com)
Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
2084 East 3900 South, SLC, UT 84124 phone: 801-278-5552
DISCLAIMER: Unless otherwise indicated, this correspondence is personal
opinion and NOT an official statement of Black Diamond Equipment Ltd.
Clyde Soles
James H. Hand <jimm...@europa.com> wrote:
> Clyde: Ya gotta admit tho, the Summit LOOKS real cool, huh? Seriously,
> the one thing that is so frustrating about Integral Designs is that it
> is hard to preview their stuff prior to parting with the fundage. I
> have a Sola Expedition that I love dearly, but I havent nutted up to
> order a full sized single wall.
Also be aware that ID's base price is for a tent stripped down to the
point I consider it almost non-functional. All the extras add up and are
standard on other brands. If you spec it right (be careful on size too),
you can get a nice tent and save a little but not a lot.
> By the way, have you heard from anybody else regarding the Garmin GPS 12
> chip problem??
Nope, can't say that I've followed that technology lately.
maohai huang
Todd Bibler (tbi...@bdel.com) wrote:
: Yes, we make the most
: expensive tents, however that is due to the cost of the fabric used and
: the fact that the manufacturing is done in the US,
Todd,
I don't really care about water proofness. I just want a bomber
shelter that can keep the wind and spindrift out in sub-freezing
temps. so maybe Bibler can make a tent using normal nylon? or micro
fiber? I might get water all over when the odds stacks up against me,
but if that can save me several hundred doughs, I'd buy it. normal
nylon perhaps breaths better any way. just some thought.
Rico
Todd Bibler <tbi...@bdel.com> wrote:
> I'd like to address some comments that have been made here about Bibler
> Tents quality, warranty policy, and repair policy....
> We do honor our warranty, a guarantee against defects in workmanship and
> materials, every time. Sometimes we even give the customer a break when
> its clearly his fault. But we can not replace tents for any whim, or
> realistically even tents that get destroyed by extreme weather.
So Bibler tents are not to be used in extreme weather? Good to know.
Do you define 'extreme' in your marketing literature, so we can know
under what conditions the products are appropriate?
> I hope this will set the record straight on these issues.
Not quite yet....
Kenneth Cline
On page 186 of Laura and Guy Waterman's Wilderness Ethics you'll find
Lesson 10: In winter, neither wind nor cold are as deadly an enemy
as warmth and rain, followed by cold.
I'd guess that this rule is equally true for mountaineering at modest
altitude as for winter in the White Mountains of NH. Even at extreme
altitude where rain is unlikely, I'd want a tent that provides better
wind blocking than plain nylon.
Also, as far as I am concerned, ToddTex rules! I now prefer my Bibler
bivy sack to a tent for camping when weekend cragging because of the
convenience and beacuse the bivy stays drier than anything else due to
the lack of condensation at least in the high humidity found in the
eastern US. When I see how wet my friend's conventional tents are in
the morning, I'm not so sure that plain nylon provides better
breathability.
Finally, for those who think Bibler tents should be indestructible, keep
in mind that we are talking about the lightest shelter available.
Bibler tents are strong, but ultralightweight gear is almost always
weaker and more expensive than heavier competition. There are tradeoffs
between weight, durability, and price.
Ken
Ste...@usem.net
Since Bibler's aren't, anyone know of tents really made for high
altitude extreme use.
James A Ellers
> <SNIP>
The real issue here is perceived claims of performance by Bibler via their
advertising and the salespeople who sell them. Just visit their site. It
shows a tent that is pitched in a pit dug into the snow. The pit is full,
almost to the top of the tent. Is this showing how well Bibler tents hold up
under extreme conditions? NO says Todd Bibler, it's showing a tent that is
out of warranty, because it's pitched improperly.
On the other hand, I met a few climbers at Camp Hazard on Mt. Rainier who told
me of being stormed off the camp a couple of years ago with their backpacks
full of the shreds of two VE-25's (as in The North Face). One of the guys
blew out the butt on his Kichatna bibs (as in The North Face) glissading down
by running over some rocks. These guys happened to live in San Francisco and
went into The North Face store and had their gear replaced. As in REPLACED.
What's my point? I believe that if you generate a great deal of advertiseing
hype and have salespeople who use the term bombproof when describing your
products, then you'd better back up your claims when people encounter stout
conditions. What Todd seems to be saying, is that you can take you Bibler
with you, but don't come crying to me if it blows up in a storm. What The
North Face is saying is, take a North Face Tent with you. It'll protect you
or you'll get another. Which gives you more comfort when the sky blackens and
the wind starts to pick up?
The testimonials are full of descriptions of people sleeping out in 70&80 mph
winds and heavy snowfall. I can't believe that anyone would use these to sell
products and then not support these products when they are used in these
conditions.
I've seen shots in the Bibler catalog of people standing on top of a tent.
What's this supposed to show? How incredibly strong they are or another
warranty violation?
Business is business. I bought a Fitzroy and have already had some minor
repairs done on it. One was my fault (caught the awning in the zipper) and
one was their fault (vestibule pole was too tight). They replaced the
vestibule and repaired the hole I made for nothing. Even shipped the tent
back to me on their nickel. I really appreciated the service and was glad I
bought a Bibler. However, I assumed if I followed directions and had my tent
destroyed, I'd get a new tent. I suppose that depends on who you buy your
tent from.
Anyway, I'm taking the Bibler Fitzroy to Denali and I'm hoping it holds up.
I' ve been very happy with it. Toddtex rules. The 4 pole construction has
protected me when I had a 2 foot cornice build up over the tent one night when
it snowed faster than we could shovel. I'll keep an eye on these discussions
and probably base my next tent purchase on which way they seem to swing.
Please post positive things about Bibler. These discussion tend to be too
biased as only people who have been burned chime in.
Think about it Todd. If you won't back up warranty claims that sound just
like the testimonials you use, stop using them to sell your tents. I'm sure
that backpackers and hikers would still buy your tents.
My opinion, not Tek's.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Jae Ellers Email: jam...@pogo.wv.tek.com
Tektronix, Inc
PO Box 1000 (m/s 60-431) Voice: (503) 685-3489
Wilsonville, OR 97070-1000 FAX: (503) 685-3883
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
Sean Parker
James A Ellers wrote:
>
> > <SNIP>
>
> The real issue here is perceived claims of performance by Bibler via their
> advertising and the salespeople who sell them. Just visit their site. It
> shows a tent that is pitched in a pit dug into the snow. The pit is full,
> almost to the top of the tent. Is this showing how well Bibler tents hold up
> under extreme conditions? NO says Todd Bibler, it's showing a tent that is
> out of warranty, because it's pitched improperly.
>
>
> like the testimonials you use, stop using them to sell your tents. I'm sure
> that backpackers and hikers would still buy your tents.
>
Most manufactures or retailers do the same thing but they back it up.
This is one reason why I have no problem returning gear to REI if I am
not
100% satisfied. The sales guy always tells me to just go ahead and buy
it, try
it out and then if I don't like it to just return it. I have only had to
return
good used gear twice because I honestly did not like it but I feel that
if they
are using the guarentee to close sales then it is ok to do as long as
you aren't
taking advantage and buying a whole winter set up and returning it all
after
your trip.
I am just glad that Todd has come out and set the facts straight so
that his
customers are under no perceived notions when you buy one of their
tents. Since they don't honor the warranty for mispitched or extreme
conditions they really should not show that in their catalog.
I just want to know what I am getting into before I lay down my cash.
Todd, what ever happpened to the guy with the holes in his tent floor.
His claim
is that YOU PERSONALLY told him that you guys would replace his tent
floor for a
fee at rainy pass and that they used the wrong fabric and that you guys
would not
redo the job and make it right for free. If the story that he tells is
not true
I really wish that you would repsond with your side of what happened. I
find his
story hard to believe but since you or BD have not told your side of the
story (that
I know of) it really doesn't leave me with much choice.
Sean
Clyde Soles
<Ste...@usem.net> wrote:
> Since Bibler's aren't, anyone know of tents really made for high
> altitude extreme use.
Biblers *are*....and have the track record to prove it. Nobody has shown
me a better tent yet but I've only looked at all of the ones available
in North America. There are a few others that are about as good, some
that are nearly as good for less, and quite a few others that are just
good marketing. With any tent, it's always a question of which
trade-offs you can accept.
BTW maohai, having suffered with leaky tents at high altitude last
summer (not Biblers), I must strongly disagree that waterproofness isn't
necessary. Besides, you have to get to base and back at low elevations.
David Oliver
And yours?
David Oliver
Sorry for the flame, but...why would it be a HUGE mistake to allow the
opinions of this group affect ones buying decision? Where else will a
question like this get answered by a large group of people? Should your
opinion and review matter more than the individual opinions of the
group? I would hesitate tying together "awesome" customer service with
them having more practice.
Looking at all of the options is a definate course of action, but this
newsgroup as well as others are essential sources of education on
products and companies.
No harm meant.
david.
Clyde Soles wrote:
>
> Sean Parker <spa...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone had to deal with Integral Designs? I need to replace my tent
> > and I really like the single wall designs. I do like Bibler tents but I
> > just can not purchase one knowing how they treat thier customers
> > compared
> > to other tent makers like TNF, Marmot, Mountain Hardware etc...
>
> It would be a HUGE mistake to base your purchase decision on the hearsay
> on this newsgroup. Read my review of single wall tents, look at several
James Sneeringer
Rico (Er...@ix.netcom.comNOSPAM) wrote:
: So Bibler tents are not to be used in extreme weather? Good to know.
: Do you define 'extreme' in your marketing literature, so we can know
: under what conditions the products are appropriate?
Dear Smart Ass,
The perception that little 6 to 8 pound bundles of nylon and aluminum
should be able to stand up to every kind of weather known to man is a rather
new one, and incredibly spoiled. Mountaineering involves risks and
decisions, as we all know, and no amount of "killer gear, dood" is going to
make for poor judgement of anything, including tent placement.
Todd is speaking plainly. There exist conditions which will destroy
any tent, I don't care what other companies claim. If you cannot
acknowledge this then you should not be in the mountains, because I don't
like it when people die.
--
James
Clyde Soles
David Oliver <dol...@netscape.com> wrote:
> Sorry for the flame, but...why would it be a HUGE mistake to allow the
> opinions of this group affect ones buying decision? Where else will a
> question like this get answered by a large group of people? Should your
> opinion and review matter more than the individual opinions of the
> group? I would hesitate tying together "awesome" customer service with
> them having more practice.
You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
lurkers stay quiet.
> Looking at all of the options is a definate course of action, but this
> newsgroup as well as others are essential sources of education on
> products and companies.
>
> No harm meant.
All reviews, including mine, should be taken with a grain of salt. When
it comes to net info, make it a tablespoon.
maohai huang
Kenneth Cline (ken....@cs.cmu.edu) wrote:
: On page 186 of Laura and Guy Waterman's Wilderness Ethics you'll find
: Lesson 10: In winter, neither wind nor cold are as deadly an enemy
: as warmth and rain, followed by cold.
Sure do-any-thing gear would be nice. But I have better ways to burn my
money. The key is to know limits of the gear and be sure you can get by.
: There are tradeoffs between weight, durability, and price.
There are many climbing places where it's just not gonna be long
torrential rain. And a compromise in gears could be made there.
Hal Murray
> I don't really care about water proofness. I just want a bomber
> shelter that can keep the wind and spindrift out in sub-freezing
> temps. so maybe Bibler can make a tent using normal nylon? or micro
> fiber? I might get water all over when the odds stacks up against me,
> but if that can save me several hundred doughs, I'd buy it. normal
> nylon perhaps breaths better any way. just some thought.
I remember tales from my youth ('60s) about an expedition to
the St Elias that didn't bring rain flys to save weight...
Guess what happened?
James Sneeringer
James A Ellers (jam...@pogo.wv.tek.com) wrote:
: However, I assumed if I followed directions and had my tent
: destroyed, I'd get a new tent. I suppose that depends on who you buy your
: tent from.
This is a ridiculous assumption, and one that no manufacturer I have dealt
with will support. Tents are not indestructible. TENTS ARE NOT
INDESTRUCTIBLE. A perfectly pitched house or building can get destroyed by
bad weather, why should tents be different? If you stick your tent up at
Windy Corner on Denali for a week or two (or even one big storm), and it gets
destroyed, not many manufacturers are going to go "oh, yeah, that's
definitely our fault." It's not like getting a glass of Coke at a
restaurant--they refill it for free when you finish it. Tents have a
definite life span, and it is shorter than humans. No tent company I know
considers flaking fly or floor coating to be a warranty item after a number
of years. Mildew is not warranty, even if it happens on the first trip out.
Besides, all the warranty jive in the world does you no good if your stuff
breaks down in the backcountry. Why does the North Face have such a great
warranty program? _Lots_of_practice._
--
James
James Sneeringer
Sean Parker (spa...@sprintmail.com) wrote:
: Todd, what ever happpened to the guy with the holes in his tent floor.
: His claim
: is that YOU PERSONALLY told him that you guys would replace his tent
: floor for a
: fee at rainy pass and that they used the wrong fabric and that you guys
: would not
: redo the job and make it right for free. If the story that he tells is
: not true
: I really wish that you would repsond with your side of what happened. I
: find his
: story hard to believe but since you or BD have not told your side of the
: story (that
: I know of) it really doesn't leave me with much choice.
To the best of my knowledge, Todd Bibler does not read this newsgroup.
I e-mailed him and asked for the scoop directly--the result was several
prompt replies to me and several posts to this group. If you want the
answers to your questions, e-mail te...@bdel.com. I received a very prompt
and complete reply--I'm satisfied in my decision to buy a Bibler when I get
the money saved. It is not Todd's responsibility to monitor this group for
your questions, even if it doesn't leave you much choice. And if you
believe everything you read on this newsgroup without specific rebuttal,
then god help you.
--
James
Chris Weaver
Clyde Soles wrote in message
<1d8kzpx.52h...@166-93-57-151.rmi.net>...
>You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
>it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
>just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
>some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
>lurkers stay quiet.
I really do think you're giving the group a worse depiction than it
deserves. Plenty of people pipe up when someone asks about a product with
which they've had good experiences. Cases in point would be the REI pants
thread, the wall harness thread, the constant plastic boot and crampon
posts, and in general the pack threads. Now, you'll find divergent opinions
on specific products, but that's normal. Just because someone doesn't work
for Rock & Ice or Black Diamond (that's not meant as a dig) doesn't mean
that their opinion is meaningless. For instance, Clyde, you do see a lot of
gear and get to test it, but it doesn't seem like many of the products get
long-term tests. The product users here on r.c. will usually have that
experience and relating it will be useful to the interested buyers in the
audience. There will always be some smartass or disgruntled consumer that
will have a bias, but those people are usually easy to pick out of the pack.
CW
Stefan Axelsson
In article <1d8kzpx.52h...@166-93-57-151.rmi.net>,
Clyde Soles <cso...@rmi.net> wrote:
>You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
>it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
>just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
>some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
>lurkers stay quiet.
Well, I don't know if I agree with that. Having been on USENET for
more than ten years, it has certainly changed, but I think that you
are being (a bit) unfair. I remember threads about ice axes for
instance where people gave very positive reviews of the Black Prophets
(and others).
>All reviews, including mine, should be taken with a grain of salt. When
>it comes to net info, make it a tablespoon.
It all comes down to judging the arguments presented. While the
"DIugler suUucks" type posts should be given little consideration,
there are others that make more sense. As in all kind of
communication, you be the judge.
This is also true of certain kinds of printed media as well. Many *)
seem to live by the motto that "our subscriber is the product we sell
to our advertisers", and the journalistic quality suffers accordingly.
Comparing electronic media I would say that it's the web that you have
to take with the larger grain of salt. In open forum (such as this)
the more outrageous claims are often put down quite quickly.
The net can be a very poor source of information, but so can all other
sources. The power of the printed word often makes us forget this. If
USENET can remind us of this from time to time, then we have gained,
not lost, in the transition.
*) Present company excluded, of course.
Stefan,
--
Stefan Axelsson Chalmers University of Technology
s...@rmovt.rply.ce.chalmers.se Dept. of Computer Engineering
(Remove "rmovt.rply" to send mail.)
Clyde Soles
Chris Weaver <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
> I really do think you're giving the group a worse depiction than it
> deserves.
Only from having watched it for too long.
> Plenty of people pipe up when someone asks about a product with
> which they've had good experiences. Cases in point would be the REI pants
> thread, the wall harness thread, the constant plastic boot and crampon
> posts, and in general the pack threads.
More examples: REI pants thread degenerated to a Grammicci slamfest even
though they sell bizillions of pants to apparently satisfied customers.
Recent rope thread that degenerated to a Beal slamfest even though they
are among the largest rope comapnies in the world and wouldn't have
gotten that way if they made lousy products. Rarely do the happy
customers chime in even though pure numbers dictate they must be out
there.
> Now, you'll find divergent opinions
> on specific products, but that's normal. Just because someone doesn't work
> for Rock & Ice or Black Diamond (that's not meant as a dig) doesn't mean
> that their opinion is meaningless. For instance, Clyde, you do see a lot of
> gear and get to test it, but it doesn't seem like many of the products get
> long-term tests. The product users here on r.c. will usually have that
> experience and relating it will be useful to the interested buyers in the
> audience. There will always be some smartass or disgruntled consumer that
> will have a bias, but those people are usually easy to pick out of the pack.
But few people ever qualify their comments. Usually its "I had one and
they all suck" never stating which model, when they had it, how they
used it, what they compared it to, etc. Long-term testing is great but
what good is it if the product is no longer around or has significantly
changed? Without all the info, many of the opinions are meaningless.
Nuff said. I'm going to make rock shoes.
Chris Weaver
Clyde Soles wrote in message
<1d8lmav.1by...@166-93-69-117.rmi.net>...
>Chris Weaver <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
>
>> I really do think you're giving the group a worse depiction than it
>> deserves.
>
>Only from having watched it for too long.
It's really a shame that you feel that way, but you're entitled to your
opinion of course. I just expected a more open-minded point of view from
someone who sees as many products and who spends such as much time on r.c.
as you do. We all get jaded from time to time (I'm no exception), but I
don't think most of us would be here unless we felt it served a useful
purpose.
CW
hma...@msnet.com
I think everyone understands that tents are not indestructible. They
are responding to the perception that you get when reading the Bibler
brochures.
There is a quote from a tent owner in Bibler's advertising saying that
their tent survived 70-80 mph winds with gusts to around 100 mph, for
example. If Bibler didn't believe the tents are able to withstand those
wind speeds I don't think the quote would have been included in the
brochure. If the tents can't withstand those winds, then the quote
should have been left out as it give the reader an impression that the
tent is that strong.
BTW, Bibler did respond to this newsgroup. I saw one of his messages
yesterday.
ch...@mini.net
>
> You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
> it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
> just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
> some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
> lurkers stay quiet.
I'd say you've described yourself to the T.
Hugh Grierson
In article <6ipr25$2v7$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, "Chris Weaver" <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
>Clyde Soles wrote in message
>>You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
>>it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
>>just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
>>some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
>>lurkers stay quiet.
>
>
>which they've had good experiences.
Most people haven't done extensive comparative testing in the field. So
they get a product that works, and they rave about how good it is. Or it
breaks, and they say how bad it is. When it comes down to it, neither
opinion is worth shit.
-H
Kenneth Cline
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> Clyde Soles wrote in message
> <1d8kzpx.52h...@166-93-57-151.rmi.net>...
> >You're new here huh? The net is a poor microcosm of the universe because
> >it attracts certain personality types. Sad to say, negativism rules. Not
> >just in this case but across the board. It is incredibly rare to see
> >some one jump on here and talk about how great something works, the
> >lurkers stay quiet.
>
> I really do think you're giving the group a worse depiction than it
> deserves. Plenty of people pipe up when someone asks about a product with
> thread, the wall harness thread, the constant plastic boot and crampon
> on specific products, but that's normal. Just because someone doesn't work
> for Rock & Ice or Black Diamond (that's not meant as a dig) doesn't mean
> that their opinion is meaningless. For instance, Clyde, you do see a lot of
> gear and get to test it, but it doesn't seem like many of the products get
> long-term tests. The product users here on r.c. will usually have that
> experience and relating it will be useful to the interested buyers in the
> audience. There will always be some smartass or disgruntled consumer that
> will have a bias, but those people are usually easy to pick out of the pack.
I don't know. Miya probably had it right years ago when he insisted
that gear reviews were best left for magazines. Many of the positive
reviews we see are from tyros who are excited about their first pair of
crampons, or upgraded from a ten year old harness are are surprised to
find out how comfortable the new one is. I watch some of these repeat
threads (like "what pack should I buy"), and see that no one seems to
recommend the approach I prefer or argues the blatantly incorrect
statement that "all small packs are uncomfortable".
The same goes for the big wall harness discussion - for example, no one
pointed out that there are many extremely comfortable, lightweight,
general purpose harnesses that might be a better choice for some
people. Mostly, though, the recommendations are spotty and unless you
know the answer ahead of time, it is tough to tell who's opinion to go
with.
Also, most of us don't have the opportunity to test a wide variety of
equipment. Someone buys say, a harness, and either loves it or hates
it, but can't really say how it compares to the others that are on the
market. Either way, when these people post, they tend to present a
distorted view of the product. Gear reviewers have an obligation to try
a variety and comment on the differences in a slightly less opinionated
manner.
Anyway, the biggest problem with getting information about gear here is
that many of the people who know the most stay out of these
discussions. It is still possible to learn something useful, but you
really have to work hard to do so reliably.
Ken
Kenneth Cline
Sean Parker
1) I don't believe everything I read which is the reason why I asked
the question.
2) I did send email to BD and the reply stated that they would not
talk about the incident. I also asked about the non warranty repair
issue and they replied they reccomend rainy pass but it is up to
you to make sure the repair is done using the correct material.
Even though I think they are deceiving by the way they advertise
their product compared to their service and that I don't like some
of their customer service policies I still think they make a good
tent. What is preventing me from buying one is the fact that in the
particular situation it is said that Todd HIMSELF said that the tent
would be repaired and then would not fix it right for free after the
job was done wrong with the incorrect fabric. If this did happen then
I really think Todd is scum and I will not purchase his products and
will recommend to others that they should not either. I have asked
them to tell me their side of the story (through email) and they have
refused. If they are not even willing to do that then I feel that
the story must be true.
Sean
CptRTUS1
>) I did send email to BD and the reply stated that they would not
>talk about the incident. I also asked about the non warranty repair
>issue and they replied they reccomend rainy pass but it is up to
>you to make sure the repair is done using the correct material.
I Prefer High End Equip......I Spend ALOT of Time Reviewing thse and other
boards....... I've Heard Enough that I WILL Buy a McHale Pack..... However With
Little or No Follow Up Warrenty I WONT Buy a BIBLER......Sorry But When The
Customer With The Pinholes.....Repair (incorrect a that) And Grossing $1000.00
With A LESS THAN Perfect product........ I Can Learn Frum Anothers
Mistakes....To Each His Own...But For My Bucks I'll Take Customer Service AFTER
the Sale ANY DAY! Ron
BERDANS
Another point.
Firist I'll qualify this by saying that perhaps Bibler tents are different or
improved. But , twice stecificlly in a high alpine tent over, the people in a
singlewall tent said what a savere night it had been. They had had high
ventelation to prevent condensation and ice-up of tent interior and contents.
Those of us snugged pretty in with some ventelation in double wall tent(s) had
thaught it to have been a quite plesent night.
Bert
Hal Murray
> All reviews, including mine, should be taken with a grain of salt. When
> it comes to net info, make it a tablespoon.
Sometimes reviews or comments have facts that can be checked.
Sometimes they are just opinions. If I've seen enough reviews
or comments by the author to get calibrated then I might pay
attention to an opinion. (Maybe in a negative way.)
In my opinion, Clyde's gear reviews are generally good.
I'll pay some attention to his opinions even if there isn't
something simple I can check.
Usenet gets into shout and flame mode very easily. That
seriously reduces the average value of comments on usenet.
It doesn't mean that you won't find an occasional useful
comment - maybe even one with facts in it.
Struan Gray
Hal Murray, mur...@pa.dec.com writes:
> Usenet gets into shout and flame mode very
> easily. That seriously reduces the average
> value of comments on usenet.
Agreed. But who says you have to take an average?
[What follows is more a general comment than a followup to Hal]
I've learnt a lot from newsnet, both in terms of climbing and about
other subjects. Despite the throwaway condemnations epitomised by
Clyde's post I honestly believe that newsnet offers a way of learning
that is just as useful as more normal methods such as books, courses
and idle chit-chat in the pub.
The trick is to use your own judgement to assess the information
you recieve. Perhaps I have an unfair advantage in that I work in
research, but I really don't think it's too hard to spot the posters
who know what they are talking about. Gear-weenies who spout off with
blanket condemnations on the basis of having fondled a bit of kit in a
shop somewhere are ridiculously easy to twig, and hence ignore. The
dangerous posters are those that are plausably, reasonably, soberly,
wrong; but there are precious few of them and because they are a
pleasure to converse with they are usually corrected.
For me, the only real 'problem' with extracting useful data from
usenet is that there is no guarantee of a response, which is fair
enough in a voluntary information exchange. If people do respond to a
query, sorting the chaff from the wheat is usually pretty simple, and
it doesn't take too many braincells to see that differing levels of
scepticism are appropriate for decisions whose consequences are more
or less severe.
In the specific case of climbing gear I think it needs to be
remembered that pretty well all commercially manufactured climbing
equiment is adequate for the intended use. It's nice to find a
wonderful bargain, but all the buyer really *needs* to do is avoid the
occasional dogs which might make life unnecessarily unpleasant. For
me, 'dogs' includes gear that does not hold up in long term use, and I
have found usenet to be far and away the best source of that sort of
information.
As for this thread, I've always thought the returns policies of
REI and TNF were daft, and resented the fact that I as a cautious user
who takes care of my gear and responsibility for my own choices end up
subsidising the rash and unscrupulous. That small companies cannot
afford such stupid generosity seems obvious to me, and the fact that
extremal cases are used in advertising is unremarkable. If you want a
truly bombproof tent quit whining and get an Antarctic pyramid; if you
want something you can actually carry up a mountain accept the
self-evident tradeoffs.
Struan
Chris Weaver
Hugh Grierson wrote in message <6iqr62$cch$2...@ukko.trimble.co.nz>...
>Most people haven't done extensive comparative testing in the field. So
>they get a product that works, and they rave about how good it is. Or it
>breaks, and they say how bad it is. When it comes down to it, neither
>opinion is worth shit.
I beg to differ. The opinion is worth what it's worth. Just because someone
hasn't done extensive comparative testing doesn't mean that the item didn't
work well for them. Anecdotal experiences are useful even if they don't tell
the whole story.
If none of the opinions here are "worth shit" to you, why do you read them?
I'm a bit puzzled why people who spend a lot of time reading and responding
to this newsgroup have such a poor opinion of it's usefulness. The only
reason I can come up with is that it's "cool" to put down the group. I
suppose the hypocrisy of people thinking that it's only OTHER poeple's
opinions that are crap may contribute to it. It just seems odd to me, that's
all.
CW
Bill Zaumen
In article B2A...@nscl.msu.edu, Al Zeller <zel...@nscl.msu.edu> writes:
>
> How do you determine the velocity so that you are comparing wind speed
> and not wind force? Presumably, doppler shift would yield the correct
> speed.
Actually, there is a real easy way. Send someone 25 meters downwind,
unstake your tent, and time how long it takes for it to fly by.
BTW, the serious answer to the question is that you measure something
else too (like the altitude) and use that to determine a correction factor.
If you have an airspeed indicator like they use in planes, just pick up
a book on aviation and it will tell you how to do it.
Bill
Hugh Grierson
In article <6iseb0$j7k$1...@winter.news.erols.com>, "Chris Weaver" <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
>If none of the opinions here are "worth shit" to you, why do you read them?
I probably only read 20% of rec.climbing posts.
>I suppose the hypocrisy of people thinking that it's only OTHER poeple's
>opinions that are crap may contribute to it.
Oh no, I don't exclude my own opinions :-) But then I don't post that
often, and I try to limit it to things I do know about rather than idle
speculation. This thread excluded perhaps.
Maybe Clyde _is_ right after all. I read a couple of posts in the Beal
thread before skipping the reast, and it was all negative. I never bothered
to post my own good experiences with them. Should I have? If two
recommendations disagree then one of them is wrong, or there's some
vital information missing. Either way the recommendations are unreliable.
Why should I make unreliable posts myself?
-H
Stefan Axelsson
In article <6itaah$7jt$4...@ukko.trimble.co.nz>,
Hugh Grierson <hugh.g...@trimble.co.nz> wrote:
>Maybe Clyde _is_ right after all. I read a couple of posts in the Beal
>thread before skipping the reast, and it was all negative. I never bothered
>to post my own good experiences with them. Should I have?
If it was your honest opinion, why not? Myself, I skimmed the Beal
thread, and decided that even though I'm not too happy about my current
Beal, the thread wasn't of enough quality to jump in. It works both
ways.
>If two recommendations disagree then one of them is wrong, or there's
>some vital information missing. Either way the recommendations are
>unreliable. Why should I make unreliable posts myself?
Now we're getting into philosophical terrain. There isn't necessarily
a "right," and a "wrong." Though background information about what the
premises for the recommendations may be what's missing.
I wholeheartedly agree with Struan, you be the judge. If the reasoning
is sound, I see no reason to distrust information/opinion here on
rec.climbing, more than the same heard at my local crag. I arrive at
my conclusion about the trustworthiness of the source via different
paths of reasoning, but there's nothing inherently wrong about the
USENET method of disseminating information.
And speaking of the signal to noise ratio, you are going to hear a lot
of bollocks in either place. Rec.climbing is both my best, and my
worst, source of climbing related information.
Mad Dog
Chris Weaver wrote:
>I don't think most of us would be here unless we felt it
>served a useful purpose.
I guess one might consider the senseless consumption of leisure time to
be a useful purpose. For me, the chief purpose of r.c has been to allow
me to meet some good people from time to time. I personally would never
buy a product based alone on a recommendation from this newsgroup. I'm
much more prone to gawk at the stuff in a store and imagine which would
make me appear more rad.
MadRadDog
Med Dyer
On Wed, 06 May 1998 14:57:21 -0400, Kenneth Cline
<ken....@cs.cmu.edu> wrote:
>I don't know. Miya probably had it right years ago when he insisted
>that gear reviews were best left for magazines.
In this thread, however, we are discussing not just the gear itself
but also the customer service. Magazine reviews almost never include
details on customer service. If two or three people rant about getting
screwed by a given company, that means a hell of a lot more to me than
finding out that Clyde was able to button and unbutton a particular
brand of fleece-lined drawers fifty-thousand times before they crapped
out. (Just kidding Clyde -- your reviews are usually quite good).
Not all will agree, but for me, Karma counts in product selection.
Med Dyer
Kenneth Cline
Maybe - Clyde raised an important point when he mentioned that
Bibler is now supported by Black Diamond. Does it really make
sense to harp on problems encountered when dealing with a different
company?
Also, I don't personally know any unhappy Bibler customers and I
seriously wonder whether the conclusions people are drawing based
on complaints from one or two people are reasonable.
Ken
Bill Zaumen
In article kt3hfa...@166-93-69-114.rmi.net, cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) writes:
> Sean Parker <spa...@sprintmail.com> wrote:
>
> > Has anyone had to deal with Integral Designs? I need to replace my tent
> > and I really like the single wall designs. I do like Bibler tents but I
> > just can not purchase one knowing how they treat thier customers
> > compared
> > to other tent makers like TNF, Marmot, Mountain Hardware etc...
>
> It would be a HUGE mistake to base your purchase decision on the hearsay
> on this newsgroup. Read my review of single wall tents, look at several
> options, then buy what works best for you. Despite a few whinners, the
> vast majority of Bibler tent owners have been pleased.
I know one person who has a new Integral Designs tent and has just
gotten a Bibler tent to replace it. He was on a trip to Mt Shasta,
with one Bibler and one Integral Design tent as a test for a trip this
summer, and decided that the Bibler tent worked much better in the 40
mph gusts during a storm. The issue for him was the location of the
tent stays (and seeing how the tents vibrated as a result).
Obviously there are cost differences too, and what works best for one
person is not going to best for someone else---it depends on how you
are going to use the tent. Also, he mentioned that Integral Designs
can customize the tents when you order them, so maybe he could have
solved the problem that way.
Another thing he liked was the location of the vent at the top of
the Bibler tent (which seems to be a good location for steam to vent
if one is using a hanging stove).
Finally, I'm not trying to endorse any product or make a definitive
statement about which performs better in general or is a better buy.
One test/opinion by one person isn't quite enough to do that.
Bill
Bill Zaumen
In article 1...@engnews2.Eng.Sun.COM, nob...@netz.eng.sun.com (Bill Zaumen) writes:
> In article kt3hfa...@166-93-69-114.rmi.net, cso...@rmi.net (Clyde Soles) writes:
> >
> > It would be a HUGE mistake to base your purchase decision on the hearsay
> > on this newsgroup. Read my review of single wall tents, look at several
> > options, then buy what works best for you. Despite a few whinners, the
> > vast majority of Bibler tent owners have been pleased.
>
> I know one person who has a new Integral Designs tent and has just
>
>
Clyde suggested posting some more of the stuff I sent him, but didn't
put on the net. While it could have depended on how the tents were
pitched, in the trip I described, two people where in a bibler and two
in an Integral designs tent, pitched right next to each other. The
Integral designs tent heaved in an out, whereas the Bibler was rock
solid, only vibrating rapidly (and for short distances) during gusts.
The climbers in the Integral Design tent thought the location of the
guy lines had a lot to do with it (and you can apparently get Integral
Design tents customized, so their experience may not hold in general).
The high frequency vibrations didn't effect a Bibler hanging stove at
all (the stove forms a pendulum, with a much longer period). Anyone
who has studied classical mechanics can explain why the stove would
just sit there. The full details are a bit too complicated to go into
(this is a climbing newsgroup, not a physics one), but the main point
is that if the stove would swing at a much lower rate than the tent vibrates,
that is a good thing for keeping the stove stable.
As Clyde points out, don't base decisions purely on annecdotal evidence
from a usenet group: typically one ends up seeing how something performs
under only one set of conditions (and one can't even tell if the gear was
used correctly).
Bill
Bill Zaumen
Sorry if this gets posted twice...I sent it yesterday and it hasn't shown up
locally and might have been dropped.
Bill Zaumen
In article 8...@src-news.pa.dec.com, mur...@pa.dec.com (Hal Murray) writes:
> In article <6inejg$hdp$6...@news1.bu.edu>, mhu...@bu.edu (maohai huang) writes:
>
> > I don't really care about water proofness. I just want a bomber
> > shelter that can keep the wind and spindrift out in sub-freezing
> > temps. so maybe Bibler can make a tent using normal nylon? or micro
> > fiber? ....
>
> I remember tales from my youth ('60s) about an expedition to
> the St Elias that didn't bring rain flys to save weight...
>
> Guess what happened?
Hi Hal ... we don't have to guess: they learned that they should have
brought a Bibler bivvy sack along just in case. Since this is usenet,
little details like Goretex not being available in the '60s can be
conveniently ignored :-).
I recall once being in the same camp site in Camp 4 with Todd for a day
or so. One of Todd's first products was a bivvy sack called the
'impo-tent'. I had a homemade one that I had humorously given the same
name, along with an advertising slogan to go with it: "better the tent
than you". Of course, since I wasn't trying to sell any, this slogan
was completely useless, but did cause some nervous laughter.
These days, we could have a product that would be very competitive with
Todd's original "impo-tent": the "viagra-tent" (it holds up well in a
storm :-).
Bill
Bill Zaumen
In article DAA0...@ladder03.news.aol.com, yumm...@aol.com (Yummygoop) writes:
> (continuation of the my last post which was cut off)
>
>
> The Bibler Co. may have been justified in its decision not to repair my tent,
> but it that decision also diminished further purchases on my behalf. The reason
> why I keep going back to buy gear from a company like, say, REI, is that REI is
> very customer service friendly, esp. when it comes to returns.
I don't want to comment on either company's products or policies, but
it is worth pointing out that REI sells a lot of gear to people you
don't use it very much or who use it under rather mild conditions.
That is probably not the case with the gear Todd Bibler sells. REI can
afford to have gear returned for borderline cases much easier than Todd
can as a result: a much larger fraction of Todd's customers are going
to use the gear under extreme conditions, which increases the chances
of a failure.
Bill