Zion Park soloist death
Rick D
Also from the same article:
" Climbing permits issued at Zion have ballooned from 147 in 1993 to
398 last year, said Eddie Lopez, assistant park superintendent. The
park is less than a five-hour interstate drive from Utah's and
Nevada's largest urban hubs and has garnered glowing reviews in
outdoor magazines."
Ballooned?, not to be a spoil sport-but back when I first went I knew
or quickly met most of those climbing and establishing routes. This
was 1989, and I suspect the number of "permits" or whatever was a
great deal lower. Oh isn't growth a great thing, like Bridlevail
being taken over by neamos (smedleys).
Rick D
Dan Harrison
The following was taken from the Salt Lake Tribune report (1/8/97).
IMHO, they wrote a reasonably good story. The entire text can be found
at www.sltrib.com/97/jan/08/tci/00150315.htm
------------
Dan Harrison
EXPERT'S FATAL FALL A FIRST FOR ZION
BY BRIAN MAFFLY
THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
When seasoned Provo climber John Christensen plunged from a 1,200-foot
rock face last week, he became Zion National Park's first
technical-climbing fatality. Technical climbers have been scaling the
massive sandstone faces at Utah's oldest and most-visited national park
for 30 years. But no climber even had been seriously injured before
Christensen's accident, says National Park Service investigator Pat
Bucchello. ``The park has a good record because climbers who come here
have a great deal of experience,'' Bucchello says.
Every year, a few of the 2.5 million Zion-area visitors are killed in
falls, drowned in slot canyons or injured in other non-climbing accidents.
But no one knows exactly when or how Christensen, 36, fell. A board of
inquiry, required for all park fatalities, will meet next week to examine
reports and draw a conclusion about the cause of the accident, officials
said.
``They don't have too many accidents because you have to be a
better-than-average climber to even get high enough to get in trouble,''
Eric Bjornstad said. His climbing permit was for Dec. 30 and 31, but
officials learned he was delayed because he needed fresh batteries for a
headlamp, Bucchello said. Christensen began climbing a route known as
Prodigal Sun on Jan. 1. A guidebook describes the climb, which follows
cracks to the crest of Angels Landing, as a nine-pitch trade route with a
difficulty rating of 5.8. The 5.8 rating indicates Prodigal Sun, perhaps
the easiest of the routes on Angels Landing.
The last time Christensen was seen alive was at about 9 p.m., when a party
of climbers on nearby Lowe's Route saw his headlamp on the sixth leg of
Prodigal Sun, Bucchello said. It appeared the climber was ascending in the
dark at a fast pace. Christensen was reported overdue the next day, Jan.
2, and searchers found his body at the base of Angels Landing that night.
Investigators suspect Christensen reached the summit, then opted to rappel
down rather than take the longer, but safer, four-mile hike to the canyon
floor, Bucchello said. In this scenario, Christensen may have botched the
rappel, or his gear may have failed. Bjornstad said ``But coming down
is dangerous. It's anticlimatic, you're tired, you've reached the summit.
You're not as cautious.''
tdonalek
This is, of course, tragic, but it is reassuring to see such a well
written article in the main stream press.
On 8 Jan 1997, Dan Harrison wrote:
> The following was taken from the Salt Lake Tribune report (1/8/97).
> IMHO, they wrote a reasonably good story. The entire text can be found
> at www.sltrib.com/97/jan/08/tci/00150315.htm
>
> ------------
> Dan Harrison
>
>
> EXPERT'S FATAL FALL A FIRST FOR ZION
>
> BY BRIAN MAFFLY
> THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
>
> When seasoned Provo climber John Christensen plunged from a 1,200-foot
> rock face last week, he became Zion National Park's first
> technical-climbing fatality. Technical climbers have been scaling the
> massive sandstone faces at Utah's oldest and most-visited national park
> for 30 years. But no climber even had been seriously injured before
> Christensen's accident, says National Park Service investigator Pat
> Bucchello. ``The park has a good record because climbers who come here
> have a great deal of experience,'' Bucchello says.
>
> Every year, a few of the 2.5 million Zion-area visitors are killed in
> falls, drowned in slot canyons or injured in other non-climbing accidents.
> But no one knows exactly when or how Christensen, 36, fell. A board of
> inquiry, required for all park fatalities, will meet next week to examine
> reports and draw a conclusion about the cause of the accident, officials
> said.
It's great to see acknowledgement of the fact that 'hikers' are a far more
accident prone use group than climbers. Then again, how many of theses
hiker incedents made the paper?
> ``They don't have too many accidents because you have to be a
> better-than-average climber to even get high enough to get in trouble,''
> Eric Bjornstad said.
This is my one quibble - I've bouldered high enough to have a good chance
of dying in the fall. It's as easy to bite it on the first pitch as the
twenty-third.
> His climbing permit was for Dec. 30 and 31, but
> officials learned he was delayed because he needed fresh batteries for a
> headlamp, Bucchello said. Christensen began climbing a route known as
> Prodigal Sun on Jan. 1. A guidebook describes the climb, which follows
> cracks to the crest of Angels Landing, as a nine-pitch trade route with a
> difficulty rating of 5.8. The 5.8 rating indicates Prodigal Sun, perhaps
> the easiest of the routes on Angels Landing.
>
> The last time Christensen was seen alive was at about 9 p.m., when a party
> of climbers on nearby Lowe's Route saw his headlamp on the sixth leg of
> Prodigal Sun, Bucchello said. It appeared the climber was ascending in the
> dark at a fast pace. Christensen was reported overdue the next day, Jan.
> 2, and searchers found his body at the base of Angels Landing that night.
>
> Investigators suspect Christensen reached the summit, then opted to rappel
> down rather than take the longer, but safer, four-mile hike to the canyon
> floor, Bucchello said. In this scenario, Christensen may have botched the
> rappel, or his gear may have failed. Bjornstad said ``But coming down
> is dangerous. It's anticlimatic, you're tired, you've reached the summit.
> You're not as cautious.''
This has a certain ominous ring with the correlation between 'last run'
while skiing and the time of day most injuries occur. Other than that,
I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
partners and ropes for me, thanks.
Cheers,
Tom
BillFoote
tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> writes:
>...I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
>(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
>I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
>partners and ropes for me, thanks.
The re-print didn't use the word "free". Was this guy FREE soloing, or
roped soloing?
Rick D
Bill-
Since "Prodigal" has some bolt ladders-there is manditory aid (unless
one can top step like Olevsky and do some pullups off the
pins/hangers). Therefore, no I don't think he was free soloing.
Rick
Will S. Johnston
In article <19970111191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
bill...@aol.com (BillFoote) writes:
>
> The re-print didn't use the word "free". Was this guy FREE soloing, or
> roped soloing?
>
I think it said something about him doing a multi-pitch rap, thus
free-climbing.
-Will S. Johnston
______________________________________________________
Opinion is a flitting thing, Real Time Media
But Truth, outlasts the Sun-- Thinking Media Research
If then we cannot own them both-- wi...@thinkmedia.com
Possess the oldest one-- (408)423-3720
-Emily Dickinson http://www.thinkmedia.com
Amanda Tarr
tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> wrote:
>
>This is, of course, tragic, but it is reassuring to see such a well
>written article in the main stream press.
>
>On 8 Jan 1997, Dan Harrison wrote:
>
>> The following was taken from the Salt Lake Tribune report (1/8/97).
>> IMHO, they wrote a reasonably good story. The entire text can be found
>> at www.sltrib.com/97/jan/08/tci/00150315.htm
>>
>> ------------
>> Dan Harrison
>>
>>
>> EXPERT'S FATAL FALL A FIRST FOR ZION
>>
>> BY BRIAN MAFFLY
>> THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
>>
>I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
>(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
>I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
>partners and ropes for me, thanks.
>
>
>Tom
>
Tom-
I'm 99.9% sure that the climber in question was, in fact, climbing with a
rope. One detail that the article left out is that there is also an aid
rating attached to the route.
Naturally, you are entitled to your not very thinly shrouded opinion on
soloing, but keep in mind that passing the value judgement of "stupid" on
a soloist, free or roped, maybe be a bit assumptive. People climb for
different reasons, and I'd wager most soloists realize full well what they
are getting into, and certainly have to accept these realities before they
go.
Amanda
Greg Opland
Sorry if I sound cynical here, but I think this accident was to
be expected sooner than later. Climber days at Zion had to go
through the roof the last few years as the mystery and respect
for the soft sandstone was replaced with "hey dudes! here's some
easy big walls you gotta surf!!"
I think if you bring the crowds, the chanches of someone biting it
go up dramatically. I'm not knocking this guy. For all I know, he
was quite experienced, just saying that there will be more accidents
as the "adventure" crowd pours into Zion canyon to bag "easy" wall
climbs.
G.
Mark Stavar
BillFoote (bill...@aol.com) wrote:
: tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> writes:
:
: >...I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
: >(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
: >I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
: >partners and ropes for me, thanks.
: The re-print didn't use the word "free". Was this guy FREE soloing, or
: roped soloing?
I would imagine that he was solo aid climbing.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Mark Stavar | #include <std/disclaimer.h> . \
Mincom Pty Ltd | Ph : +61 7 303 3333 . o/\__
Wyandra St. | Fax: +61 7 303 3232 . <\__,\_
Teneriffe Q. 4005 | Email: ma...@mincom.com . "> \_
Australia | . ` |
"I hate it when my foot slips" - John Bachar . \
"...it usually ends up in my mouth." - marks . \
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
tdonalek
On 11 Jan 1997, BillFoote wrote:
> tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> writes:
>
> >...I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
> >(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
> >I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
> >partners and ropes for me, thanks.
>
> The re-print didn't use the word "free". Was this guy FREE soloing, or
> roped soloing?
>
Good question. I believe that the article mentioned that it appears that
another group saw the desceased descending, as I understand it, by rappel.
It is possible that his fall was due to an accident while rappelling.
We'll have to wait for the invesigation to get a conclusion based on
facts, though.
I should say that my comment at the end used the word "and" very
specifically. That's ropes _and_ partners - uh, untill I can make it to
Hueco.
Cheers,
Tom
Brooke Hoyer
tdonalek wrote:
> I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
> (myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber
> than I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon.
> It's partners and ropes for me, thanks.
BillFoote wrote:
> The re-print didn't use the word "free". Was this guy FREE soloing,
> or roped soloing?
Will S. Johnston wrote:
> I think it said something about him doing a multi-pitch rap, thus
> free-climbing.
The route he was on, Prodigal Sun, is rated IV, 5.8, C2. When a person
solos an aid route, it means they are doing a roped solo. In the news
report, when Bjornstad mentions that only experienced climbers can get
off the ground on Zion routes, he is right. Many routes begin with hard
free climbing or aid.
Brooke "Do the canyons beckon?" Hoyer
Raptor
Amanda Tarr <ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU> wrote in article
<5bdqak$r...@lace.colorado.edu>...
> tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> wrote:
> >
> >This is, of course, tragic, but it is reassuring to see such a well
> >written article in the main stream press.
> >
> >On 8 Jan 1997, Dan Harrison wrote:
> >
> >> The following was taken from the Salt Lake Tribune report (1/8/97).
> >> IMHO, they wrote a reasonably good story. The entire text can be
found
> >> at www.sltrib.com/97/jan/08/tci/00150315.htm
> >>
> >> ------------
> >> Dan Harrison
> >>
> >>
> >> EXPERT'S FATAL FALL A FIRST FOR ZION
> >>
> >> BY BRIAN MAFFLY
> >> THE SALT LAKE TRIBUNE
> >>
> > [article snipped]
> >I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
> >(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
> >I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
> >partners and ropes for me, thanks.
> >
> >Cheers,
> >
> >Tom
> >
>
> Tom-
> I'm 99.9% sure that the climber in question was, in fact, climbing with a
> rope. One detail that the article left out is that there is also an aid
> rating attached to the route.
>
> Naturally, you are entitled to your not very thinly shrouded opinion on
> soloing, but keep in mind that passing the value judgement of "stupid" on
> a soloist, free or roped, maybe be a bit assumptive. People climb for
> different reasons, and I'd wager most soloists realize full well what
they
> are getting into, and certainly have to accept these realities before
they
> go.
>
> Amanda
Well, madam, you certainly made no effort to hide your opinion on it as
well..... the article you quoted made an excellent point....and if ANY
reader finds it "silly", "unsafe", whatever modifier of choice, to climb
solo and, as you put it "realize full well what they are getting into, and
certainly have to accept these realities before they go", what was your
point?
Tell me with an honest heart that too many good young climbers aren't lured
by some bullshit mystique passed on by the "pro's" that got into soloing
just because it was the last frontier left for them.... I know all too well
how climbers in the 60's let their damned ego's turn climbing into some
egotistical one-upmanship....and far too often, soloing is an extension of
that mind set.
For those that wish to solo, and I have, that decision should be pondered
long and hard.... flaming your ass ruins a good day of climbing... I found
99% of the reasons I solo'd were all the wrong reasons...and those reaons
were perpetuated by the self appointed egomaniacs (albeit great climbers
..)
so...amanda, if you're pissed at where "common sense" seemed to eek into
the readers comments, suggest you go bust it up the Wall of Early Morning
Light by yourself and get it out of your system....
>
Greg Opland
Will S. Johnston wrote:
>
> In article <19970111191...@ladder01.news.aol.com>
> bill...@aol.com (BillFoote) writes:
>
> >
> > roped soloing?
> >
>
> free-climbing.
It's comments like these, that make this group more scary
than imagination. Exactly what does rappelling have to do
with "free-climbing" ????
G.
Rick D
Rap baby-
Don't rip too hard on Amanda. I would reccomend to all of you out
there you guys read up before speaking in haste. Try diging up some
material on Paul Preuss, Herman Buhl, and even the fallen Cesare
Maestri (pre Cerra Torre days). You will find that 60's hardguys were
only trying to emulate those who had come before. And kiss my ass if
you can't see that Preusses' ideals are far more noble than 99.9% of
today's climbing lacky's.
Rick Donnelly
Rick D
Bob-
First:
Mr dead Zion was rope soloing (w/ aid), not free soloing. Harding and
Chouinard did little in the way of rope soloing big walls, but Robbins
did several impressive things- the biggest of which was The Muir. Now
aid climbing has with or without a partner has equal potential of
injury (maybe a bit less soloing, because you won't also take out a
partner). Self rescue is much tougher in a solo situation, but that
is the 'acknowledged risk' Amanda Tarr speaks of.
Second:
It's obvious you are old and weak of mind and a pathetic wall climber
(did you actually do the Dawn, or were you escorted?).
Third:
In reference to soloing in general (i.e. Buhl, Preuss, Maestri--and
adding Beyer, Shoenard, Grossman, Cole, Croft, Wiggens etc....),
Buhl's Lonely Challenge (Nanga Parbat Pilgrimage) speaks of the self
control, mental tenacity, and the rewards of solo climbing. In other
words KEEPING YOUR SHIT TOGETHER. You must at least have some
reverence for Paul Preusses' idea of the purity of ascent in climbing
a line free solo, but the ALSO descending the same route (this was
also WWI era boys and girls). In slamming this philosphy, you degrade
all the accomplishments of modern free climbing practicioners like
Whillians, Brown, Pratt, Higgins, Kamps, Kor, Redhead, Erickson etc.
For the most part, these individuals relied on their skills to ascend
lines, not purely the ability to drill fucking holes in the rock.
You say you have been climbing for 20 years, well I've been climbing
out of bed for 32. So the-fuck-what. You didn't learn much in that
period, except that soloing is not for you 'NOR ANYONE ELSE'.
>And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses such self
>righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the realm of the
>macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
Dude, I don't care, I want all their blood on my hands. I'll pick
through their bloody gear (been there done that-to you! mutherfucker)
and dance on their fucking corpses if I want! Hey, if you die soloing
we will never know if you regreted it. If you plan on decking, do it
with class (kinda like I did, but then again I'm here messing with
your mind). Bob, just say it's not for you.
Amanda was just correcting the inacuracies in the newspaper story.
Eat some bran boy, your sphincter is mighty tight down there. "Been
there done that...."
eat me bob.
Rick Donnelly
THE GIMP!
come and get me assssssssssshhhhhhoooooooollllllleeee!!!!!!!!
Amanda Tarr
Raptor <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
>
>Save it for the sheep....I've been doing it 20 years and I'm happy
> [snip]
Speaking of, did you hear they found a new use for sheep in Wyoming???
It's called wool.
>And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses such self
>righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the realm of the
>macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
No comment. Live and let live.
Amanda
Amanda Tarr
>> >
>> >I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
>> >(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
>> >I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
>> >partners and ropes for me, thanks.
>> >
>>
>> [snip]
>>
>> Naturally, you are entitled to your not very thinly shrouded opinion on
>> soloing, but keep in mind that passing the value judgement of "stupid" on
>> a soloist, free or roped, maybe be a bit assumptive. People climb for
>> different reasons, and I'd wager most soloists realize full well what
>> they are getting into, and certainly have to accept these realities before
>> they go.
>>
>> Amanda
>
>Well, madam, you certainly made no effort to hide your opinion on it as
>well..... the article you quoted made an excellent point....and if ANY
>reader finds it "silly", "unsafe", whatever modifier of choice, to climb
>solo and, as you put it "realize full well what they are getting into, and
>certainly have to accept these realities before they go", what was your
>point?
You're right, sir, I wasn't trying to hide my opinion. If I was, I certainly
wouldn't make posts expressing it. (as Slime wuld say..."duh"). I responded
to the article because I disagree that soloing is stupid. A lot of life is
based (for me) on risk/reward tradeoffs. I realize that I would be the
safest if I got a job where I could work at home, assembling products in 5
simple steps. Less safe is actually having to drive to work, and doing
something which challenges the mind, but leaves the possibility of failure.
Even less safe is sport climbing on the weekends, adding extra danger and
challenge to life. To you see what I mean? Everyone needs to find their own
personal balance, but passing the judgement of "stupid" onto someone else for
their own personal choices is unfair, IMO. If, in fact, the original article
was simply trying to say that his personal balance does not include soloing,
then I misunderstood his point, and I apologize.
>Tell me with an honest heart that too many good young climbers aren't lured
>by some bullshit mystique passed on by the "pro's" that got into soloing
>just because it was the last frontier left for them.... I know all too well
>how climbers in the 60's let their damned ego's turn climbing into some
>egotistical one-upmanship....and far too often, soloing is an extension of
>that mind set.
Or, soloing may be a form of meditation. Of finding internal peace. Of trying
to challenge oneself both emotionally and physically. For me, soloing means
all this and more. True, I think the first time I tried to solo a wall might
have been partially ego driven. And this is probably why I backed off. 1 year
later, I went back with a different mindset, and everything came off without
a hitch.
>For those that wish to solo, and I have, that decision should be pondered
>long and hard.... flaming your ass ruins a good day of climbing... I found
>99% of the reasons I solo'd were all the wrong reasons...and those reaons
>were perpetuated by the self appointed egomaniacs (albeit great climbers
>..)
I'm sorry. Sounds like you did have the wrong reasons for soloing. I hope
that you don't truly believe that everyone is like you. I do agree with you
on the point that everyone really needs to examine why they want to solo
before they embark. Death, becoming injured when you are 11 pitches off the
deck, even loneliness are all very real issues, and _not_ to be taken lightly.
>so...amanda, if you're pissed at where "common sense" seemed to eek into
>the readers comments, suggest you go bust it up the Wall of Early Morning
>Light by yourself and get it out of your system....
Funny, I was never pissed, I simply disagreed. Looking at your above
statement, I can't quite determine your meaning... Are you assuming I've
never soloed a wall, and that if I tried I'd hate it, probably bail, etc.
It is not necessary to be condescending to me, I do have a slight idea
of what I'm talking about, although I have only soloed short walls. If the
above statement was meant to indicate that you tried to solo this wall and
decided that you were up there for the wrong reasons, I'm sorry, but I don't
think everyone is going to have the same reaction.
Sincerely,
Amanda Tarr
ps. makes me recollect the feeling of sitting on your portaledge, last
night on the wall, just watching the canyon go to sleep. No one to interrupt
the quiet. No one to thank but yourself for bringing you to this unreal
perch. Tell me that's all for ego.
Raptor
Rick D <ric...@microserve.net> wrote in article
<32DCAB...@microserve.net>...
First, given this is a newsgroups about climbing...I was surprised to see
you "second" an outspoken individual that is rebutting someone that is
critical of soloing..... Ironic, don't you think... I'd think the "soloist"
would be quite capable of defending herself....So, on that point...you kiss
MY ass..
Precursors to the 60's guys......friggin' hardly....Warren Harding, Royal
Robbins, Yvon Chounard, et al, had NO precursors in what is accepted as The
Golden Age of Climbing.... mountaineering, yes....big wall climbing....that
is where it was pushed to unsurpassed limits.... So save the philosophical
debate for someone not as knowledgeable.... I've climbed with the man, that
as
an 18 year old, put up the Wall of Early Morning Light in Yosemite, during
his spring break!!.....I
KNOW what the mindset is....or rather what it all too easily can mutate
into....
You speak of "ideals"....that is EXACTLY my point....face it, short of
defacing the rock, "ideals" are just constructs of some assholes opinions
and values....(Yes, even my position of not defacing the hell out of the
rock is an artificial construct in itself....so sue me.) These "ideals"
get in the way of people enjoying climbs and add to the risk factor.... The
artificial standard that routes must be ascended in the same or better
style of the initial party is bullshit....face it, if I'm not defacing the
rock, who gives a shit if I put in a coupla' stoppers and rest half way up
some 5.10+ layback crack that only The Fly or King Kong could do? Fuck all
these "self imposed purists" that think such an approach degrades what
"they" did... Give a shit...
Save it for the sheep....I've been doing it 20 years and I'm happy to have
met my ego and killed that ugly side of it that leads climbers into the
realm of godhead and potentiall, premature death....Soloing, knock yourself
out.....Been there, done that, .... older and wiser and don't find it worth
it.... And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses such self
righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the realm of the
macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
Bob Syrett
Nate
Amanda Tarr wrote:
>
> Raptor <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
> >And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses such self
> >righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the realm of the
> >macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
>
> No comment. Live and let live.
Or live and let die as the case may be...
--
Nathanial Beckwith - Boulder, CO
http://www.tc.umn.edu/nlhome/g032/beckw007/
Linus
"Raptor" <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
>First, given this is a newsgroups about climbing...I was surprised to see
>you "second" an outspoken individual that is rebutting someone that is
>critical of soloing..... Ironic, don't you think... I'd think the "soloist"
>would be quite capable of defending herself....So, on that point...you kiss
>MY ass..
Firstly, do you not think you've fallen into your own trap? You say Amanda should
defend herself, so why doesn't that apply to your attack on her? Shouldn't Tom be
able to defend himself as well?
Secondly, why the surprise that someone else seconded her? As you said, this is
a newsgroup about climbing, which usually includes soloing. Amanda pointed out
that she didn't think Tom's opinion of soloing as 'stupid' was valid. Rick
agreed. So do I. Soloing would be stupid if you went off to do it without
considering the consequences first, but as long as you've thought about it
carefully it's not 'stupid'. I will agree it may be unwise, even irresponsible to
risk death in this manner, but no more 'stupid' than any other form of climbing.
This leads neatly on to point three: the report said that the Inspectors
believed the soloist had summited, then fallen on the descent. So, is it stupid
to safely climb to the top just because you're alone? Does this mean it's stupid
to rap down a climb after you've gone up it? AFAICS the main point to Amanda's
piece was that Tom seemed to assume the guy was free soloing and reacted
accordingly, when it doesn't appear that this was the case.
Clyde Soles
Rick D <ric...@microserve.net> wrote:
> Try diging up some
> material on Paul Preuss, Herman Buhl, and even the fallen Cesare
> Maestri (pre Cerra Torre days). You will find that 60's hardguys were
> only trying to emulate those who had come before. And kiss my ass if
> you can't see that Preusses' ideals are far more noble than 99.9% of
> today's climbing lacky's.
FWIW, Reinhold Messner just published a book about Preuss last year. He
told me once that he considered Preuss one of the greatest climbers of
this century. Unfortunately it's in German and The Mountaineers has no
plans to translate it.
BTW Raptor is talking out his butt.
Rick D
Clyde wrote:
>BTW Raptor is talking out his butt.
HERE! HERE!
Rick D
(P.S. I coud probably get through the German text, but it might take
me a year or two)
SalamiLedge
Raptor wrote a ton of shit, but this caught my eye>>>
>>For those that wish to solo, and I have, that decision should be pondered
long and hard.... flaming your ass ruins a good day of climbing... I found
99% of the reasons I solo'd were all the wrong reasons...and those reaons
were perpetuated by the self appointed egomaniacs <<
What a load of BS! Sounds like you were just about Darwin-ed. Good thing
you hung up the solo boots. Just curious, what was the 1% of the reasons
that you soloed, that were right?
Sal
Jeffrey Papen
Obviously to score with chicks. Why else would someone climb? It's
all so dangerous and scary.
- Jeffrey "Do you use grappeling hooks to get the ropes up there"
Papen
Scaredy Cat
Raptor wrote:
> so...amanda, if you're pissed at where "common sense" seemed to eek into
> the readers comments, suggest you go bust it up the Wall of Early Morning
> Light by yourself and get it out of your system....
No fair! The Valley's closed.
Anyway don't tempt her. "Madam" Amanda recently soloed Zion's Lunar Ecstasy
(V, 5.9, A4).
Jon
"Climbing is like driving. Some times I carpool, sometimes I drive alone."
Chris Weaver
We might find a quote by Peter Croft useful here:
"I wouldn't say soloing is stupid, but for some people, soloing IS
stupid and they shouldn't do it. If soloing just gave me a mild buzz or
something, it wouldn't be worth it."
Croft said this in an interview in the video "The Painted Spider." This
is paraphrasing because I can't recall the exact words he said, but I
think its pretty close. Granted, he is talking about FREE soloing, but I
think we might be able to gain some insight anyway. What Croft was
saying was that whether soloing is stupid or not should be completely up
to the individual to say in reference to his/her own climbing. For one
person (from that person's perspective) soloing might not be stupid. For
another person, it might be insane.
I think it all comes down to personal responsibility. If someone wants
to rope-solo, free-solo, or spit in the face of an angry rottweiller, it
should be up to that person, and that person alone, to determine whether
those actions are sane, insane, normal, abnormal, appropriate or
inappropriate. This idea assumes of course that one doesn't harm others
in the pursuit of his or her actions.
In my opinion (of course), there are already too many people telling
others what they should and should not do in this world and too many
regulations telling people what is acceptible and what is not. "Live and
let live" is a nice sentiment, but unfortunately it is not one in which
most of our society believes. Climbers are certainly not as liberated
from this mentality as they would like to think either. The Harding vs.
Robbins controversies, the sport vs. trad wars, the solo vs. anti-solo
arguments and other divisive issues between climbers serve to undermine
the camaraderie that many feel is an important part of the climbing
culture.
I guess Rodney King said it best: "Can't we all just get along?"
Chris Weaver
p.s. Thanks for letting me vent.
Nate
Although I agree with Clyde's assesment, I think Raptor has a few good
points.
Raptor <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
> Tell me with an honest heart that too many good young climbers aren't lured
> by some bullshit mystique passed on by the "pro's" that got into soloing
> just because...[...]
All too true.
> For those that wish to solo, and I have, that decision should be pondered
> long and hard.... flaming your ass [decking] ruins a good day of
> climbing...
Not to mention missing out on greater future climbs, and totally ruining
your sex life.
> I found
> 99% of the reasons I solo'd were all the wrong reasons...and those reaons
> were perpetuated by the self appointed egomaniacs (albeit great climbers
> ..)
It took me a long time to realize that if I'm scared and not having fun,
then why do I do it?...the "why" is my agreement with your post. Now I
just have fun, try to stay casual and hold back on the 11's. Just as it
took a long time to tune into my lead ability, so the same for tuning
into what was comfortable for me without a rope. Let's just say soloing
is very lethal in its learning stages (and you are always learning...!)
and leave it at that. And for those that took an offense to Raptor's
comments, maybe something hit home or pushed one of your denial buttons.
> so...amanda, if you're pissed at where "common sense" seemed to eek into
> the readers comments, suggest you go bust it up the Wall of Early Morning
> Light by yourself and get it out of your system....
Actually, Dawn wall is pretty light cruxwise. The big thing I admire
about such solos is someone's will to drag a ton of shit around for
several days. I think Amanda did a technically harder solo wall
recently. Aid solos are probably not too much more dangerous than with
a partner, unless you get hurt bad. Now soloing something with some rad
freeclimbing and a few death falls like the Jolly Roger or the
Sea...that impresses me. To beat Amanda's chest, I admire some of her
reasons for soloing (nothing I have seen posted). I don't think
anything will be leaving her system soon. Only the ego wears out, as it
seems yours did - well almost ... you didn't climb with the first
ascentionist of Dawn wall as you claim. That route was put up by
Harding and Caldwell well into their 30s or older. Blow us another.
> For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
... now that would be Darwin! So kick back and relax Raptor, that or go
deny a lion its dinner.
>Save it for the sheep....I've been doing it 20 years and I'm happy
> [snip]
Or the neighbor's cat. Purrrrrr.
Raptor
Amanda Tarr <ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU> wrote in article
<5bj6v0$b...@lace.colorado.edu>...
Your response:
> You're right, sir, I wasn't trying to hide my opinion. If I was, I
certainly
> wouldn't make posts expressing it. (as Slime wuld say..."duh"). I
responded
> to the article because I disagree that soloing is stupid. A lot of life
is
> based (for me) on risk/reward tradeoffs. I realize that I would be the
> safest if I got a job where I could work at home, assembling products in
5
> simple steps. Less safe is actually having to drive to work, and doing
> something which challenges the mind, but leaves the possibility of
failure.
> Even less safe is sport climbing on the weekends, adding extra danger and
> challenge to life. To you see what I mean? Everyone needs to find their
own
> personal balance, but passing the judgement of "stupid" onto someone else
for
> their own personal choices is unfair, IMO. If, in fact, the original
article
> was simply trying to say that his personal balance does not include
soloing,
> then I misunderstood his point, and I apologize.
Your response:
> Or, soloing may be a form of meditation. Of finding internal peace. Of
trying
> to challenge oneself both emotionally and physically. For me, soloing
means
> all this and more. True, I think the first time I tried to solo a wall
might
> have been partially ego driven. And this is probably why I backed off. 1
year
> later, I went back with a different mindset, and everything came off
without
> a hitch.
Your response:
> I'm sorry. Sounds like you did have the wrong reasons for soloing. I hope
> that you don't truly believe that everyone is like you. I do agree with
you
> on the point that everyone really needs to examine why they want to solo
> before they embark. Death, becoming injured when you are 11 pitches off
the
> deck, even loneliness are all very real issues, and _not_ to be taken
lightly.
Your response:
> Funny, I was never pissed, I simply disagreed. Looking at your above
> statement, I can't quite determine your meaning... Are you assuming I've
> never soloed a wall, and that if I tried I'd hate it, probably bail, etc.
> It is not necessary to be condescending to me, I do have a slight idea
> of what I'm talking about, although I have only soloed short walls. If
the
> above statement was meant to indicate that you tried to solo this wall
and
> decided that you were up there for the wrong reasons, I'm sorry, but I
don't
> think everyone is going to have the same reaction.
>
> Sincerely,
> Amanda Tarr
>
> ps. makes me recollect the feeling of sitting on your portaledge, last
> night on the wall, just watching the canyon go to sleep. No one to
interrupt
> the quiet. No one to thank but yourself for bringing you to this unreal
> perch. Tell me that's all for ego.
For the sake of brevity, I've edited out my comments which prompted your
responses and will get straight to the points you've raised....
First, I agree with absolutely everything you've said - in entirety. So, I
want to apologize if what I said came across as a shot...that, sincerely,
was not my intention. I confess to having just recently joined this
particular newsgroup. From what I've read, there is a wide spectrum of
readers with regards to climbing skills. A substantial number seem to be
relatively inexperienced in climbing, judging from some of the questions
regarding fundamental issues and requests for suggestions and advice. And
based on the information that gets passed back to the lesser experienced,
it's also obvious that people with considerable climbing skills, many I'm
sure with far greater climbing skills than I, participate as well.
You've included in your responses to me some of the aspects of climbing
that make it unique and wonderful. And I couldn't agree more. There is
nothing else like it that I've ever experienced. But, the natural
tendency, among all novice climbers, is to really "dig" it. They get so
pumped on the adrenaline rush, so intoxicated with learning to master their
emotions and focus their skills that often it becomes a gymnastic trackmeet
to "get to the next level" or push another personal frontier. The more
subtle things, usually acquired with experience and often facilitated by
good mentors, are missed early on. An examination of the history of big
wall climbing is pocked with this "one up the next guy" and this was among
the very elite! The people that represented the pinnacle of rock climbing.
Surely this human, competitive nature is evident across the general
climbing population as well. And given the swelling numbers of people
finding the sport within the last 15 years, I'd venture to say that a lot
of the best qualities of climbing aren't being perpetuated nearly enough.
Hence, my comments about "safety first" to the reader to whom you
responded. My comments about a "mutation of ego's" or something to that
effect was not a reference at you. But I see more and more people climbing
these days and doing really stupid stuff. Shitty belays and chockcraft
make me want to just find someplace where "accidents waiting to happen"
aren't venturing nearby. And it's these same people, growing in numbers
everyday, that are enthralled with soloing.
I wasn't impugning your climbing skills. Hell, I don't even know if the
article regarding the flame out was biased or not. I wasn't addressing
that. I was addressing the lure that beckons too many climbers not ready
to solo. I don't argue with why you solo. I ventured into soloing
primarily to prove I was good enough to hang with the recognized climbers
of the area. That reason went away quickly and I found it attractive for
probably "better" personal reasons...similar to yours in many ways. But
those reasons were strictly MY reasons....and under NO circumstances would
I encourage anyway to do it. If they need encouragement, they aren't ready
I don't disagree that the original writer wasn't disparaging soloing. I
don't share his feelings on it. But I didn't see any posts from seemingly
experienced climbers urging an extra measure of caution regading it either.
Just trying to provide some extra "pro" on an aspect of climbing that
needs sober contemplation before embarking.
So, please accept my apology and explanation. I've decided to quit
responding to "knowledgeable" climbers and their flaming e-mail. (I confess
to one retort ...) But their assinine questions regarding my knowledge
base proves my point that "good climbers" often turn climbing into a
comparison of experiences, skills, bagged routes, etc. And that's the
nasty shit that will perpetuate the "perversion" to which I referred. And
it'll get someone killed. (One egotistical prick made a point to state he
cared less about novices getting hurt or killed attempting to solo.....nice
guy........glad I've never climbed into a bind with him....)
Enough said.........Enjoy and be safe.
vicki stott
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> I think it all comes down to personal responsibility. If someone wants
> to rope-solo, free-solo, or spit in the face of an angry rottweiller, it
> should be up to that person, and that person alone, to determine whether
> those actions are sane, insane, normal, abnormal, appropriate or
> inappropriate. This idea assumes of course that one doesn't harm others
> in the pursuit of his or her actions.
Please, Chris, vent away - it's an excellent argument!! You could extend
it even further. Surely, one of the things we enjoy about climbing -
certainly one of the things I love most - is the freedom it gives me to
experience my environment and relate to it closely in a very personal
way. Assuming I'm not a total dork (OK, it's a big assumption, but bear
with me!) then other people must feel the same way. So surely it
follows that we have an absolute responsibility to encourage other people
to make their own decisions and to assume their own responsibility for
the consequences of those decisions? This encompasses Chris' proviso
that they don't harm others in the pursuit etc etc... I have no right to
impose my particular ethos and criteria for enjoyment on you, and vice
versa.
If you were to legislate on every issue of hazard in climbing you'd
eradicate the sport completely. I find it utterly bizarre that people
feel they have an entitlement to judge somebody else's actions, or to
denigrate their motivation because the consequences of their actions were
unfavourable. If I break my leg (or my neck) so what? How does that
hurt anybody else? Evidently this guy died, as have others before him.
I'm sure that's very sad for his friends and family, and I'm sorry for
that but really - it's **** all to do with any of the rest of us!
Just my tuppence worth!
Vicki
Rick D
Bob the rap baby wrote:
>One egotistical prick made a point to state he
>cared less about novices getting hurt or killed attempting to >solo.....nice guy........glad I've never climbed into a bind with >him...
Oh, would that be me? I think most I've climbed with understand my
philosophy, but they also fully realize they can always count on me in
a tight pinch. I may be slow, but I will get everyone back to the car
in one piece. About the 'novi' soloing...we must all accept risk and
it is the individuals fault if they don't acknowledge that soloing-or
climbing period for that matter is dangerous. So is driving.
Gimpy, Rick Donnelly
Clyde Soles
Linus <JN...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
> Amanda pointed out that she didn't think Tom's opinion of soloing as
> 'stupid' was valid. Rick agreed. So do I. Soloing would be stupid if you
> went off to do it without considering the consequences first, but as long
> as you've thought about it carefully it's not 'stupid'. I will agree it
> may be unwise, even irresponsible to risk death in this manner, but no
> more 'stupid' than any other form of climbing.
For a different view point on a similar subject, check out the "Solo
Diving" thread currently on rec.scuba. It basically boils down to the
same lame arguements against soloing spoken by people who are either
unqualified or lack the mentality to do it. Of course that doesn't stop
them from attacking others who realize that both solo climbing and solo
diving have their rewards (equal IMHO) as well as their risks (high).
Both can be practiced with a reasonable level of safety given proper
training and experience.
Chase
Raptor (rap...@conterra.com) barked:
: First, given this is a newsgroups about climbing... [snip]
It's about climbing? *blink* Then why, prey tell, are you running
around obnoxiously flaming people for soloing? Last I knew, soloing was
climbing.
: You speak of "ideals"....that is EXACTLY my point....face it, short of
: defacing the rock, "ideals" are just constructs of some assholes opinions
: and values....(Yes, even my position of not defacing the hell out of the
: rock is an artificial construct in itself....so sue me.) These "ideals"
: get in the way of people enjoying climbs and add to the risk factor.... The
: artificial standard that routes must be ascended in the same or better
: style of the initial party is bullshit....face it, if I'm not defacing the
: rock, who gives a shit if I put in a coupla' stoppers and rest half way up
: some 5.10+ layback crack that only The Fly or King Kong could do? Fuck all
: these "self imposed purists" that think such an approach degrades what
: "they" did... Give a shit...
Who gives a rats ass whether or not YOU use stoppers, rest, or whatnot,
and what the flame does that have to do with soloing? You say "ideals"
get in the way of enjoyment? Some people -enjoy- soloing. Some -enjoy-
free climbing. Some -enjoy- the risk factor, and climbing with a leader
and lots of ropes would get in the way of their enjoyment.
: Save it for the sheep....I've been doing it 20 years and I'm happy to
: have met my ego and killed that ugly side of it that leads climbers into
: the realm of godhead and potentiall, premature death....Soloing, knock
: yourself out.....Been there, done that, .... older and wiser and don't
: find it worth it.... And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses
: such self righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the
: realm of the macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your
: hands, not mine.
No, fuck you and all the others with similarly selfrighteous attitudes who
want to run along blaming others. If some young climber chooses to solo
and takes a fall - that was -her- choice and responsibility. If someone
eggs them into it, saying they're not REALLY a climber if they're not
freeclimbing, well piss on them, and also on anyone stupid enough to climb
for such an inane reason. Call it darwinism in action. And btw, piss on
you and your "older and wiser" attitude - those who proclaim their own
wisdom rarely possess it. Not to mention that your inflammatory writing
reeks of something, but it ain't wisdom.
-- \_awless is : Chase Vogelsberg (law...@netcom.com / law...@howling.com)
--
-- I've got a couple of years on you baby, that's all.
-- I've found a few more places to fly and many more places to fall....
Dingus Milktoast
> Raptor (rap...@conterra.com) writes:
> : You speak of "ideals"....that is EXACTLY my point....face it, short of
> : defacing the rock, "ideals" are just constructs of some assholes opinions
> : and values....
Hold that thought for a moment.
> (Yes, even my position of not defacing the hell out of the
> : rock is an artificial construct in itself....so sue me.)
So, by your own logic, you're an asshole. Well said.
DMT
lar...@zinc.com
> The following was taken from the Salt Lake Tribune report (1/8/97).
> IMHO, they wrote a reasonably good story. The entire text can be found
> at www.sltrib.com/97/jan/08/tci/00150315.htm
Thanks for posting the article on John's death.
I was (am) John Christensen's close friend and frequent climbing partner. I've
never posted to rec.climbing before, though John did so from time to time, but I
have been following the dialog generated by the article. Without commenting on
any of the dialog, I'd like to provide a bit more background on John's lethal
accident and his climbing experience as a kind of a eulogy for him. His death
can provide an opportunity for all of us to recommit to safety in the sport we
love.
First, the accident itself. As the article and subsequent dialog has made
clear, John was soloing "Prodigal Sun" in Zion's National Park. John was fully
equipped and very experienced. The investigation conducted by SAR personnel at
the park concluded that John successfully reached the top of the nine pitch
climb sometime around midnight. During the first 2-3 pitches of the subsequent
rappel, John fell to his death.
SAR investigators believe the accident was caused by a combination of factors:
darkness, fatigue, use of two different diameter ropes for the rappel, and
failure to tie a bottom knot.
John was climbing using a standard 11mm rope, but as is common among big wall
climbers, he used a smaller diameter (9mm?) rope for his haul bag. For the
rappel the two ropes were tied together and run through his belay/rappel device.
The alleged problem was that on the descent the rappel device generated unequal
friction against the two ropes. The larger diameter rope had much greater
friction against the device which allowed the smaller rope to feed through more
rapidly. Eventually, the smaller rope pulled completely through the device and
allowed the fall. John's body was found with the larger rope still through the
rappel device.
The Zion's SAR group tested their theory and confirmed that the thinner rope
"walked" a lot. They made two recommendations to other climbers: use
same-diameter ropes whenever two are together; and always tie the bottom of the
rappel ropes together using a figure-eight (which will generally not fit through
the rappel device.)
Now a bit about John:
John was 36 when he died and had been climbing multiple pitch sandstone routes
since high school. He grew up in Grand Junction, Colorado, near the Rocky
Mountain National Monument, full of awe-inspiring sandstone spires. John was
married, had five kids, was a successful marketing pro with lots of friends, and
was a devoted religious man. He had lots to live for, knew it, and was one of
the most safety conscious climbers I've met.
I've climbed with John during 5.11d sport climbing redpoints in American Fork
canyon, and on natural pro routes of varying type and difficulty. I don't
personally enjoy the prolonged exposure of big walls like he did, but I've
talked with John and his other climbing companions about their big wall
experiences. John was prepared for the route the day he died.
John climbed because he loved it. It was his passion. He preferred to climb
with a partner, but John's love of climbing and the outdoors in general would
not allow him to cancel a date with the rock. If he couldn't find someone to
climb with, he'd climb solo. John would never free solo, however. He didn't
climb for ego, or exposure or any reasons except that he loved to be outdoors
and he loved to push himself.
John respected everyone else's motives for climbing, too. While he didn't like
a ghetto blaster pumping volume in a pristine setting, he respected others'
right to be there, and understood the different thrills that each person gets
while climbing.
In John's memory, enjoy climbing, be safe, and respect the outdoors and the
others who use it.
- Larry Macfarlane
-------------------==== Posted via Deja News ====-----------------------
http://www.dejanews.com/ Search, Read, Post to Usenet
BillFoote
My, MY!!! Raptor, you are SO bitter! What happened Dude?
Bill
Hank Moon
After completing a multi-pitch free climb, it is often more convenient
to rappel the route rather than bivy, downclimb, hike out, etc.
hank
Karl B.
Soloing rock climbs to score with chicks is like skiing to meet alligators.
Definately barking up the wrong tree.
As for the rest of this thread.... When I see that my soloing has inspired
a friend to solo something, I try to talk some sense into them. That being
said, the dangers of soloing are self evident, and most folks who aren't
ready have only to get a few feet off the ground before the dawning of
humility and wisdom. Solo deaths are pretty rare after all.
Anyone who gets all twisted about the idea of soloing is just looking for a
excuse to untwist. Hi Amanda!!! Live and let live is right! We are all
doomed in the end, and unsafety is in our food, our beer and our hearts.
Soloing at least reminds you to consider your life carefully while you are
still living it.
Peace
Karl
In article <5bmipj$4...@client2.news.psi.net>, jpa...@youbet.com (Jeffrey
Steven Cherry
In <01bc0443$4501d840$75b4...@esyrett.conterra.com> "Raptor" <rap...@conterra.com> writes:
The sad thing is that this "apologetic" post is far more offensive than
the original one it is apologizing for. Oh, the actual apology to Amanda
part was pretty well done, but the new justifications and rationalizations
are pathetic.
>You've included in your responses to me some of the aspects of climbing
>that make it unique and wonderful. And I couldn't agree more. There is
>nothing else like it that I've ever experienced. But, the natural
>tendency, among all novice climbers, is to really "dig" it. They get so
>pumped on the adrenaline rush, so intoxicated with learning to master their
>emotions and focus their skills that often it becomes a gymnastic trackmeet
>to "get to the next level" or push another personal frontier.
I'm one of those novices myself. I started climbing about two years ago
and started leading this summer. By October I did my first serious
run-out, and last month I stood at just the close proximity to the edge of
a cliff, setting an anchor, that I would have found "stupid" and scary for
myself when I saw someone else doing it at the top of that same October
climb. Both actions, running it out and working unroped close to the edge,
are things that experienced climbers do routinely, both are things that
bear the same risks as soloing, both are a step or two down the same,
pardon the expression, slippery slope of climbing risk.
Other things that are related to soloing include climbing past a bouldery
start, climbing on after a questionable placement, and being belayed from
an imperfect anchor, all of which I've already done, with full knowledge
and awareness, in my short climbing career.
As a novice I haven't yet discovered the attractions of soloing but I have
discovered the "speed is sometimes safety" lesson, and I've discovered the
self-satisfaction, the feelings of pure mastery, in running out a section
that's only a couple of ticks below my level. Perhaps that will progress
slowly into my one day soloing something, perhaps not.
What I as a novice find very useful is the sincere expressions of
experience and affect from thoughtful climbers who have soloed, both those
who have good things to say about it and those who don't. What's not
helpful is sophistical rationalizations and sophomoric flaming.
Suggesting that Amanda's intelligent and thoughful posting would egg on
some novice and that "the blood would be on her hands" exemplifies the
former.
Remarks like ""ideals" are just constructs of some assholes opinions and
values...."; "Fuck all these "self imposed purists" that think such an
approach degrades what "they" did... Give a shit..."; and "And above all,
fuck you and everyone that espouses such self righteous bullshit that will
lead some young climber into the realm of the macabre..." instance the
latter.
Oh, and while I'm quoting Raptor I might as well through in this little
set of gems.
> Precursors to the 60's guys......friggin' hardly....Warren Harding,
Royal Robbins, Yvon Chounard, et al, had NO precursors in what is accepted
as The Golden Age of Climbing.... mountaineering, yes....big wall
climbing....that is where it was pushed to unsurpassed limits.... So save
the philosophical debate for someone not as knowledgeable.... I've climbed
with the man, that as an 18 year old, put up the Wall of Early Morning
Light in Yosemite, during his spring break!!.....
Raptor's philosophical debate is as knowledgable as his history, which is
about nil. Climbers-writers-historians such as Doug Robinson and John Long
describe the history of climbing as a rather seamless progression with big
wall climbing as just one element in a chain of individuals and routes and
styles and challenges. Finally, if Harding was 18 at the time of Wall of
Early Morning Light that would having him nailing up the Nose at the ripe
age of six, 1970 and 1958 respectively.
-steven-
--
<s...@panix.com> <s...@acm.org>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
The mountain was beautiful; perhaps that is all that need be said.
That, and it would be very hard to climb. -- David Roberts
Rick D
Larry-
Sorry about your friends loss. I hope all this solo thread B.S. (if
you have been reading it) doesn't taint your views. Take care-
Rick Donnelly
Mad Dog
Nate wrote:
> Raptor <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
>>[decking] ruins a good day of climbing...
> Not to mention totally ruining your sex life.
Not necessarily. Remember the soldier in The World According To Garp?
His injuries ultimately lead to his death but he at least got to get off
on his way out. Aren't nurses considerate? Of course my favorite line
in the movie was when the old dude asked the nurse "You raped a dying
man?"
Mad "What a way to go" Dog
Lv2turn
Raptor (rap...@conterra.com) wrote:
>And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses
>such self righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the
>realm of the macabre...For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your
>hands, not mine.
Ohhhh.... Pleeeeeease! "realm of the macabre"? "blood on your hands"?
Who do you think you are - Charleton Heston? Save it for Hollywood!
I have NEVER met or even heard of any "young" (or new for that matter)
climber that wasn't scared to death in the early stages of their climbing
experience. This presupposition of yours that these young climbers are
ignorant and just don't know the danger is COMPLETE FANTASY! Give me a
break! Do you actually believe that these people will just hop on rock,
solo insanely and then plunge to their death - just because someone else
has chosen soloing as a way of maximizing their climbing experience? You
sure have assumed a hell of a lot! Everyone knows that altitude + gravity
= danger. All of the so called "young climbers I've ever seen were scared
shitless a mere 8 feet off the deck! "Let me down, let me down... I'm
scared..." I would be stunned and amazed to see any newbie look at
climbing with the cavalier attitude you speak of.
The real issue though is this: If they want to go climb over their head,
and they get killed - THAT'S THEIR CHOICE! If they are stupid and weak
enough to be persuaded by peer pressure - than Darwin was right!! People
like you make me sick - deciding what is safe and reasonable for other
people. Mind your own business. Who says your idea is the standard by
which the rest of us should live? No one is asking you to do anything you
don't feel like doing.
Every great accomplishment of mankind has been acheived by people whose
thinking is 180 degrees opposite of your's. If it was up to you, we would
still think the moon was made of cheese because it would have been insane
to actually go there and see! Granted, there's a big difference between
rock and cheese - but I'm feverishly looking for a way to meld the two.
(Hickory Farm's cheese boulders?)
>Save it for the sheep....I've been doing it 20 years and I'm happy to
>have met my ego and killed that ugly side of it that leads climbers into
>the realm of godhead and potentiall, premature death....Soloing, knock
yourself out.....Been there, done that, .... older and wiser and don't
find it worth it....
Are we supposed to be impressed? "Been there, done that"? Who cares? So
you admit you were a stupid-fuck once, but you got over it. It was worth
it once, but now you're older and scared. Wasn't this experience an
opportunity for personal growth? Didn't you learn anything? So now,
you've decided in your "older and wiser" ways that nobody else is entitled
to these same experiences? Through your clarity, the rest of us will be
saved from imminent doom?
>And above all, fuck you and everyone that espouses
>such self righteous bullshit that will lead some young climber into the
>realm of the macabre...
Talk about self righteous bullshit! Apparently, you wrote the book!
>For that, rot in hell....their blood is on your hands, not mine.
I can see that you have a genuine love and concern for your fellow man.
Here's the bottom line Raptor: A genuine concern for other climbers is
nobel. Educating someone who is ignorant and will certainly be killed or
injured as a result of that ignorance is a good thing - but it is not up
to you to decide whether or not anyone should engage in any particular
activity. Climbing is just one activity that actually has consequences -
and therefore higher risks and higher rewards. It's an activity that when
done improperly will surely get you killed. This is exactly why, when
done properly, the rewards are immense. Maybe once you felt the same way,
maybe not. Now though it seems you are content to sit on you're ass and
use language that is nothing less than inflamatory to tell us all how evil
we are for taking risks WITH OUR OWN LIVES. Not your life or anybody
else's. You've got a rotten attitude - hell, you're just an asshole! It
would be one thing if you actually had an argument... but you don't. Shut
up and go back to the couch. Monday morning is just around the corner.
Lv2turn
Jon Rubinfier
On 18 Jan 1997 18:43:02 GMT, lv2...@aol.com (Lv2turn) wrote:
>I have NEVER met or even heard of any "young" (or new for that matter)
>climber that wasn't scared to death in the early stages of their climbing
>experience
I have. An acquaintance of mine, Tom Garvey, soloed a 5.10a route at
Punchbowl (he even got a picture in the LA Times!). At the time, I
think Tom had less than 3 months climbing experience. Then again, he
is a roofer by trade. Very bold and (apparently) fearless.
Neal Weiss
In article <19970118184...@ladder01.news.aol.com>,
lv2...@aol.com (Lv2turn) wrote:
If it was up to you, we would
> still think the moon was made of cheese because it would have been insane
> to actually go there and see! Granted, there's a big difference between
> rock and cheese - but I'm feverishly looking for a way to meld the two.
Look no further.
-N
-----------------------------------------
Neal Weiss
Founder: L' Ecole De Fromage.
Originator of a Greater Shoe of Mud.
Finder of the Country Blue Squeak-Out.
Mad Dog
I have nothing against soloing and I think much of what Lv2turn had to
say about soloing and personal freedom of choice is correct. However,
his (her?) belief about new/young climbers and their perception of risk
and/or fear runs counter to what I've seen.
Lv2turn wrote:
>I have NEVER met or even heard of any "young" (or new for
>that matter) climber that wasn't scared to death in the
>early stages of their climbing experience.
I've seen plenty. Many newbies are comfortable with exposure if they
believe the system will protect them.
>This presupposition of yours that these young climbers are
>ignorant and just don't know the danger is COMPLETE FANTASY!
Disagree again. I've seen incredible levels of ignorance at the crags
and even more at the gym. One should never doubt the human capacity for
ignorant or unsafe behavior. Although our species has the capacity for
intellegent thought, often it seems the dregs of the intellegence
histogram finds its way into climbing.
>Do you actually believe that these people will just hop on rock,
>solo insanely and then plunge to their death - just because
>someone else has chosen soloing as a way of maximizing their
>climbing experience?
It happens. In fact it happened at our local crag this summer - and it
almost caused the closing of said crag. Fortunately, the kid did not
die.
>Everyone knows that altitude + gravity = danger.
So what? Alcohol plus moving automobiles = death, as is proven over and
over again. The participants know of the dangers, yet still it keeps on
happening.
Mad "too dumb to be scared" Dog
Lv2turn
In a response to my post which is mostly about personal responsibilty and
freedom of decision,
Mad Dog <mad...@concentric.net> wrote:
>I have nothing against soloing and I think much of what Lv2turn had to
>say about soloing and personal freedom of choice is correct. However,
>his (her?) belief about new/young climbers and their perception of risk
>and/or fear runs counter to what I've seen.
>Many newbies are comfortable with exposure if they
>believe the system will protect them.
>I've seen incredible levels of ignorance at the crags
>and even more at the gym. One should never doubt the human capacity for
>ignorant or unsafe behavior. Although our species has the capacity for
>intellegent thought, often it seems the dregs of the intellegence
>histogram finds its way into climbing.
>In fact it happened at our local crag this summer - and it
>almost caused the closing of said crag. Fortunately, the kid did not
>die.
>>Everyone knows that altitude + gravity = danger.
>So what? Alcohol plus moving automobiles = death, as is proven over and
>over again. The participants know of the dangers, yet still it keeps on
>happening.
I agree. Ignorance, even wanton stupidity is everywhere. It's rampant,
even epidemic. My point is this: whose job is it to be sure any
individual knows what they are doing? Is it my job to guarantee that you
are qualified to perform a certain task - and if I am not certain, then I
must prohibit you from engaging in that activity? I am not discussing
activities which when done improperly, endanger other people's health and
welfare. I am also not talking about matters of public/personal trust
where an individual has been charged with the responsibilty for another
individual or group - such as a guide who knows his group is inexperienced
and vulnerable to tragedy due to their lack of knowledge or an airline
pilot. No, I am talking about each and every one of us - moment to
moment, day by day and the things we choose to do for ourselves.
Yes, I also am horrified by the blatant stupidity I see everyday. Not
just at the crags or the gym, but on the highways or on television.
However, what it all boils down to is this: we (each of us) must take
responsibilty for our own actions - regardless of what they are or what it
costs. Too many people today have fallen into the deadly state of
semi-conscious thinking that everything they do or see has been analyzed,
approved and guaranteed safe - therefore if anything should go wrong - it
must be the fault of somone else! Incredible! Hey people, shit happens!
When it does, you might be next. If you are someone who goes around all
day without realizing that you are lucky to be alive - wake up! There are
no guarantees. There is no way to predict what will happen next. This
means you must be ready for anything so DO YOUR HOMEWORK. Then sometimes
no amout of prep is adequate but that's life.
Mad Dog is right for the most part (99.99%). The thing which I think was
missed is this: People will die climbing, be it solo, top roped, trad, rad
and everything else you can think of. So what? Does this mean that we
should end all climbing? Because the risk of death or injury exists?
Extreme you say? Okay, where do we draw the line? I'll tell you where.
The only place the line can exist efficiently and with the best results is
at the feet of every single person who decides to try it. If they die -
it's sad, but they chose to try it, whatever their level of experience.
If they are not smart enough to know they are in over their head, then
Darwin was right! I am sick and tired of people who want to protect all
of us from ourselves! The dumb ones die. Let them be a reminder to the
rest of us as to what can happen when you don't know what you're doing.
The only people who really have an argument here are the ones that have to
clean it up! (SAR) Of course, they CHOSE this job and get paid for it.
Also any argument about taxpayers money, blah, blah, blah - won't fly.
Freedom is not free.
The thing is, people toady want a life free of consequence. They want to
sleep with every person they see and then are shocked and angry when they
contract AIDS. And whose fault is it? God's? They want to drive drunk
because they are too lazy to call a cab or it just isn't cool. On the way
home they lose control of their car and kill your sister! Whose fault is
it? The bar that served them the drinks and then let them leave the
place?! Or the family that dies from carbon monoxide poisoning after
bringing the hibachi into the house for heat! Whose fault is it? The Gas
company for turing off the gas after the bill wasn't paid for 6 months?!
The climber who is out soloing only because he thinks it's cool and all
the other climbers will say "ooooohhh, aaaahhhh". Well, I guess we'll see
just how cool that guy really is. Yelp, whistle, splat.
Everyone wants to go to heaven, but no one wants to die. Everything has
it's price. With climbing, as with other risk/reward activities - it's
strictly pay-as-you-go. Sorry, no credit.
I agree that many people do many things for all he wrong reasons, but it's
not my job to be sure you're not in over your head, no matter what you do.
That's your job.
Lest any of you think I am someone is just uncaring or doesn't know about
death and injury firsthand, I assure you I do. I know or have been with a
number of friends who have been injured and/or killed while engaged in the
activity of their/our choice. I have seen even more total strangers
killed and maimed by their ego and/or ignorance. I am deeply saddened by
these events and I certainly always try to prevent these tradgedies by
offering advice and experience when I can. Ultimately though, I am a mere
spectator to anyone's life but my own.
I do not believe in the elimination of risk. I do believe in risk
management.
If you want to play the game, you had better know the rules.
Lv2turn
Lv2turn
md...@jabra.com (Med Dyer) wrote:
>The latest issue of Climbing magazine mentions three deaths that could
>be considered rock climbing deaths (i.e. not mountaineering related).
>Of the three deaths, two were free-soloers.
Uh huh... and your point is?
So what? Each year 70,000 people are killed in automobile collisions. So
do we stop driving? Why not? It obviously kills more people than
climbing ever will.
What's rare? What's frequent? Compared to what? In what time period?
What's your definition of "free solo". What's the point? Who cares?
Lv2turn
Med Dyer
karl...@inreach.com (Karl B.) wrote:
>...Solo deaths are pretty rare after all.
The latest issue of Climbing magazine mentions three deaths that could
be considered rock climbing deaths (i.e. not mountaineering related).
Of the three deaths, two were free-soloers.
Med Dyer
md...@jabra.com
tdonalek
On 16 Jan 1997, Linus wrote:
> "Raptor" <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
> >First, given this is a newsgroups about climbing...I was surprised to see
> >you "second" an outspoken individual that is rebutting someone that is
> >critical of soloing..... Ironic, don't you think... I'd think the "soloist"
> >would be quite capable of defending herself....So, on that point...you kiss
> >MY ass..
>
> Firstly, do you not think you've fallen into your own trap? You say Amanda should
> defend herself, so why doesn't that apply to your attack on her? Shouldn't Tom be
> able to defend himself as well?
Well, here I am, not that I think I need to do much defending - perhaps
just a bit of clarifying and commenting.
> Secondly, why the surprise that someone else seconded her? As you said, this is
> a newsgroup about climbing, which usually includes soloing. Amanda pointed out
> that she didn't think Tom's opinion of soloing as 'stupid' was valid. Rick
> agreed. So do I. Soloing would be stupid if you went off to do it without
> considering the consequences first, but as long as you've thought about it
> carefully it's not 'stupid'. I will agree it may be unwise, even irresponsible to
> risk death in this manner, but no more 'stupid' than any other form of climbing.
My response was based on a certain gut reaction I have to soloing
(specifically unroped) Part of that reaction is to the times that I've
gotten myself out onto ledges et. al. unroped and just kept going. This
is the sort of unintened and unconsidered 'soloing' that I really kick
myself for. The other thing I consider 'stupid' on my part is times I've
intentionally gotten into situations where even though I'm roped, a fall
would be really serious - sure this is just par for the course for many
climbers, so I should clarify my point. For myself, I consider it stupid
to get into a situation where a fall will likely kill me - roped or
unroped - solo or with others. I like redundancy. It turns my stomach to
watch tape of Dan Osman in a situation where one problem (popped hold,
slipped foot, etc.) means he will die. (I'm not someone who watches car
racing for the crashes) Sure it's a personal opinion, but I think that it
represents a lapse in judgement (a.k.a. stupidity) to put one's self in
such a situation.
> This leads neatly on to point three: the report said that the Inspectors
> believed the soloist had summited, then fallen on the descent. So, is it stupid
> to safely climb to the top just because you're alone? Does this mean it's stupid
> to rap down a climb after you've gone up it? AFAICS the main point to Amanda's
> piece was that Tom seemed to assume the guy was free soloing and reacted
> accordingly, when it doesn't appear that this was the case.
Good point. I did gather from the article that he died while descending
by rappel, but I didn't put all the pieces together when I spued my gut
reaction. Given that I come from a primarily sigle-pitch non-aid
background I don't think much about roped soloing - it is certainly more
sensible than unroped high climbing, IMHO.
Part of my reaction to soloing in general (and this applies to any mode of
climbing) is to take into concideration the effect that fucking up has on
public perception of climbing. Keep in mind that this all started not
from the climber's death, but from the newspaper article about it. The
general public can't distinguish between alpinism and technical climbing,
let alone between unroped soloing and aid-soloing. When one of us bites
it, we're all given dirty looks by the masses (insurance underwriters
included). On top of this, my impression is that public reaction is less
harsh when a death is caused by 'acts of god' (e.g. a block shifting
causing a TR anchor to give, or rockfall) than ballsy stuff like screwing
up soloing. Just my impression.
Cheers,
Tom
tdonalek
On Thu, 16 Jan 1997, Chris Weaver wrote:
> We might find a quote by Peter Croft useful here:
>
> "I wouldn't say soloing is stupid, but for some people, soloing IS
> stupid and they shouldn't do it. If soloing just gave me a mild buzz or
> something, it wouldn't be worth it."
>
> Croft said this in an interview in the video "The Painted Spider." This
> is paraphrasing because I can't recall the exact words he said, but I
> think its pretty close. Granted, he is talking about FREE soloing, but I
> think we might be able to gain some insight anyway. What Croft was
> saying was that whether soloing is stupid or not should be completely up
> to the individual to say in reference to his/her own climbing. For one
> person (from that person's perspective) soloing might not be stupid. For
> another person, it might be insane.
I'm sorry that I'm not responding to Chris' entire post, but that would
get me going in too many directions. I would just like to say that I
think Chris is off target in his interpretation of the quote (thanks for
bringing in a good reference like this) I think that what Croft is saying
is that there are some absolutes - some people are just not capable of
unroped soloing. I don't believe that I can climb consistently without
possibly goofing, therefore I shouldn't put myself in a situation where a
slipped hold will kill me.
For some people the distinction is that they are simply physically not
consistent enough for the odds of making a mistake to be slim enough to
make unroped high climbing anything but stupid. This isn't the idea of
personal assessment of one's situation, this is the idea that there are
simply some people who should never free solo. Dan Osman is an example of
someone for whom the odds are quite slim that his mind/body will goof on a
route that he has chosen to 'boulder'. For most of us this is not the
case, and some more than others. I just hope that we all keep in mind our
own potential falability, in general, and especially while climbing.
Cheers,
Tom
tdonalek
On Fri, 17 Jan 1997, Clyde Soles wrote:
> Linus <JN...@le.ac.uk> wrote:
>
> > Amanda pointed out that she didn't think Tom's opinion of soloing as
> > 'stupid' was valid. Rick agreed. So do I. Soloing would be stupid if you
> > went off to do it without considering the consequences first, but as long
> > as you've thought about it carefully it's not 'stupid'. I will agree it
> > may be unwise, even irresponsible to risk death in this manner, but no
> > more 'stupid' than any other form of climbing.
>
> For a different view point on a similar subject, check out the "Solo
> Diving" thread currently on rec.scuba. It basically boils down to the
> same lame arguements against soloing spoken by people who are either
> unqualified or lack the mentality to do it. Of course that doesn't stop
> them from attacking others who realize that both solo climbing and solo
> diving have their rewards (equal IMHO) as well as their risks (high).
> Both can be practiced with a reasonable level of safety given proper
> training and experience.
While I don't dive, I am generally familiar with the arguments about
solo diving - it is a fairly similar argument. The idea is that one puts
one's self in a situation where any minor problem could kill that person.
Either situation seems like a really shitty way to die. Then again the
chance that one could die with partners around certianly exists in both
pursuits. Why does that (lesser) risk seem more accepetable to me? I
honestly don't know.
I am quite willing, though, to accept Clyde's distinction between
'stupid' and 'irresponsible'/'unwise' when soloing is well concidered
beforehand. Personally, I still frown on it - but plenty of people frown
on climbing and diving. I seem to have deadlocked my self in my own
debate, thus I'll shut up for a wile on this.
Cheers,
Tom
Lv2turn
tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> wrote:
>Keep in mind that this all started not from the climber's death, but from
the newspaper article about it.
No flame intended here but I thought it started because one or two of you
misunderstood the article about this climbers death and then made
broad-brush statements condeming the practice of solo climbing for
everyone - based on the fact that some of you feel it is unwise.
Am I wrong? Maybe it's the those cheese boulders I've been eating. They
don't fit in the fridge very well.
Lv2turn
Amanda Tarr
Jeffrey Papen <jpa...@youbet.com> wrote:
>Obviously to score with chicks. Why else would someone climb? It's
>all so dangerous and scary.
>
Uh...so will I catch me a Betty if I solo? Rad!!!!!
;)
Amanda
Paul Tieslau
I agree. I feel that if I want to raft the south fork of the American (class 3) in a
2-man Kmart raft ("rubber ducky"), I should be able to do it without getting fined. I am
accepting the added risk. And if the raft sinks half-way down and I can't get out of
there, then I should pay for any rescue operation.
We definitely have a different way of dealing with risk in our judicial system, than,
say a country like Guatemala. Down there, any risk is taken as a personal
responsibility. There's a volcano called Pecaya that spews out lava every couple of
minutes. You climb up this path to within 200' of the crater and watch lava shoot up
300' and then fall down one side. Many have died taking this trip when the lava decided
to fall over the trail that day. Still, no one keeps you from hiking up today.
The same situation in the US would result in lawsuits and boundaries put up or who
knows what. I heard the legal sito in NZ or AU has much more freedom and
personal-responsibility than the US. Is this true?
I suppose laws that protect you from yourself are in place because it's cheaper for the
government to enforce such laws like the helmet law, instead of paying the hospital
bills. And avoid any liability. Is this correct?
All of the former is going to affect the future of rock climbing adversely, but I
suppose I won't get much response because this topic has probably been spoken of on this
newsgroup after the Austrians got fined for the Shield climb.
Paul
hmpe...@aol.com
What is SOLO AID? Without a cable to clip into, how can you use a rope
alone, without first going to the top to set it up?
Lv2turn
Paul Tieslau <Tie...@oakweb.com>
>I suppose laws that protect you from yourself are in place because it's
cheaper for >the government to enforce such laws like the helmet law,
instead of paying the >hospital bills. And avoid any liability. Is this
correct?
Only in a society where it is already accepted that someone other than the
responsible party should actually pay those bills or assume that
liability.
>... after the Austrians got fined for the Shield climb.
The Austrians were only fined after they told the Magistrate that they had
insurance to cover such an event.
Lv2turn
Dave Newton
hmpe...@aol.com wrote:
> What is SOLO AID? Without a cable to clip into, how can you use a rope
> alone, without first going to the top to set it up?
Solo lead climbing. It's not too hard. Just anchor for an upward pull
at the bottom and have at it.
--
Dave Newton | TOFU | (voice) (970) 225-4841
Symbios Logic, Inc. | Real Food for Real People. | (fax) (970) 226-9582
2057 Vermont Dr. | -- | david....@symbios.com
Ft. Collins, CO 80526 | Armed Radical Liberal | Free America
Eric Coomer
In article <5c0fkt$d...@lace.colorado.edu>,
Amanda Tarr <ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>
>Uh...so will I catch me a Betty if I solo? Rad!!!!!
>
>;)
>
>Amanda
>
Uh... I thought you already had one...
Cheers
Betty in a one piece
Eric Coomer
In article <5bj6v0$b...@lace.colorado.edu>,
Amanda Tarr <ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU> wrote:
>Raptor <rap...@conterra.com> wrote:
>>> tdonalek <tdon...@enteract.com> wrote:
>>> >I'll spare everyone from my grumbling about the stupidity of soloing
>>> >(myself included at times) - I'm sure this guy was a better climber than
>>> >I'll ever be - he's also deader than I plan to be anytime soon. It's
>>> >partners and ropes for me, thanks.
>>> >
>>Tell me with an honest heart that too many good young climbers aren't lured
>>by some bullshit mystique passed on by the "pro's" that got into soloing
>>just because it was the last frontier left for them.... I know all too well
>>how climbers in the 60's let their damned ego's turn climbing into some
>>egotistical one-upmanship....and far too often, soloing is an extension of
>>that mind set.
>
>Or, soloing may be a form of meditation. Of finding internal peace. Of trying
>to challenge oneself both emotionally and physically. For me, soloing means
>all this and more.
>ps. makes me recollect the feeling of sitting on your portaledge, last
>night on the wall, just watching the canyon go to sleep. No one to interrupt
>the quiet. No one to thank but yourself for bringing you to this unreal
>perch. Tell me that's all for ego.
Here's the deal. What follows is a very personal trip report. One I wrote
for me and a couple of very close friends. I never thought I would post
it. And even now have some reservations of doing so. Maybe some out there
will get the fucking point, the rest of the cattle can just keep chewing
the cud of the day and pleasantly pass it by. Yeah, rope soloing isn't
free soloing, but it's not climbing with a partner. But, stop trying to
kid yourself, climbing is dangerous, we all need to figure that out real
quick. You can buy it just as quickly with a trusted partner on the other
end as you can by yourself. I'm sick of seeing these posts cropping up
every now and again calling soloers- roped and free, ego chasing boneheads.
Not everyone climbs for glory or praise. Not everyone climbs just because
it's fun. There can actually be some personal meaning wrapped up in this
meaningless, pointless, absolutely stupid fucking game we all play.
Eric
The Tribute.
One of the hardest question anyone can ask me is, "How many brothers and
sisters do you have?"
I can readily answer, "Two brothers and two sisters." It's the next question
that inevitably follows that hurts so much.
"How old are they?"
I always pause at this point, a little unsure of how to answer. "Well,
I have a sister who's 32, a brother 30, another brother 10, and well,
my other sister would have been 13 this year." My face twisting ever
so slightly as I look away. Even after almost 4 years, the death of my
sister still pains me.
When Rachel was born, my father was doing the 70 hour a week career
military move, and my mom was working full time in real estate. My sister
was in college and my brother was heading that way too. That left me, all
of 13 years old, to do the babysitting. But more than that, I bacame
very close to my sister, more so than anyone else in my family.
She ran from my mom to me when she took her first steps. I was there
when she spoke her first words. She used to think she could turn herself
into Peter Pan by spinning in circles. She'd do that every night before
bed and I would then lift her in my arms and "fly" her up the stairs to
her room.
Eventually, my mom had my little brother, Michael, and quit working, but I still
did a lot of babysitting until I went away to college. When I moved, it was
hard only seeing Rachel and Michael a few days out of the year, but we talked on
the phone occaisionally. It still amazes me to this day how fast kids grow.
When I moved back home for two months after graduating from college, I was
amazed at how hard it was to pick Rachel up and fly her around the house. She
was becoming a young adolescent quickly. We sat up late at night talking about
my first 2 week cross-country climbing trip and looking at pictures of the Black
Hills, Devil's Tower, Seneca Rocks. I spent a day trying to teach her how to
do flips off the diving board. She was now becoming more of a friend than
anything. If I knew then what I know now, I would have spent even more time
with her those two months. I never imagined that the day I left for California
would be the last time I ever saw her.
The night before the accident, my mom called to tell me she was leaving for the
drive from Virginia to Massachussetts where my father was already
working at his new job. I was busy at work, and for some reason never asked to
speak to either Michael or Rachel. The next phone call I got from that side of
the country was from my ex-girlfriend asking if anyone had called me yet. I
instantly knew something was wrong. No one had been able to get in touch with
me to tell me that Rachel was dead and that my mother and little brother were in
intensive care. The last thing I ever did for my sister was to help carry her
casket out of the church.
Every year on the anniversary of the accident, my wife Emily and I have headed
out to Yosemite alone, usually without any climbing gear. We just spend a few
days taking in the splendor and awesome views of the valley. For one reason
or another, the valley has become intertwined with the memories of my sister.
When my little brother came out to visit recently, he and I spent two days
there. I showed him all of the things I wished I could have also shown to
Rachel.
Her birthday is only one week after mine. As I already said, she would have
been 13 this past July. Thirteen, it's hard for me to imagine. I can't
even get over the fact that my little brother is now 10! I remember when I
turned 13. I felt like I was finally becoming an adult. I was one year away
from High School- among the oldest kids in middle school. It was a big time.
I felt the need to do something special for the memory of my sister, for her
13th birthday. I don't know why, I just did.
Some people paint, or sculpt, or have other lasting artistic talents. I have
been blessed with no such luck. All I can do is solve calculus equations and
on some weekends pretend that I'm a climber. I decided that I would solo a
wall- solo a wall that was at the highest end of difficulty for me. In some
way, this would be a personal celebration of my sister's 13th birthday. It's
unfortunate that her birthday comes in such a hot month. I failed on my first
attempt at Wet Denim due to heat, and more importantly, depression and fear.
The wall had ceased to become a climb. A hasty decision had me asking a friend,
Bob Ternes, if he wanted to do the wall with me. I instantly regretted this.
But I couldn't back out on him. I was glad when we both decided to bail due to
the heat and after effects of a full bottle of Jager. It wouldn't be right for
me climb this wall with a partner. I had to solo it.
I stashed my food and water, vowing to return when the weather cooled. The
next several weeks were hell. I felt like I had let my sister down. I
failed. It's the only wall that I've ever backed off of. It sat in my
stomach, heavey and full of fat. I know those around me could sense something
was wrong. But I couldnt' talk about it. It was just something I had to do.
I spent the weekend before the climb in the valley with many friends, but
everything seemed so distant. I didn't want to be around anyone. I just
wanted to be alone. I wanted to be on the climb instead of just hiking water
back up to the base after the first load was destroyed by a small fire.
Finally, the day came. I loaded the car and said good-by to Emily. I was
at last on my way. As I walked the two loads to the base of the climb, the
many memories of my sister filled my head. It was nice and quiet in the valley.
The hordes of mid-week tourists were finally starting to dwindle. I rolled
out my ridge rest and sleeping bag at the base of the 4th class traverse
ledge, drank my oil can of beer, and stared at the starlit sky as tears began
to stain my cheeks once again. On top of it all, the climb itself was
starting to scare me. I had heard so many negative comments about this route.
It seems that one either loves this climb, or loathes it. Of the four
opinions I received on the climb, two thought it was a great climb, two thought
it was a death trap that one should never gaze upon.
As I loaded the pig and set off on the first pitch, I
told myself not to rush. I would do this wall in a completely relaxed and
slow pace. I had water and food for at least four days. There was no need
to hurry. Rushing now could only lead to error or that familiar hectic
feeling. By the day's end I was sitting alone at awhannee ledge once again
watching the beautiful postcard sunset on the western end of the valley.
Tomorrow, my first real A4 lead awaited. I was somewhat consoled by the
knowlede that a chicken bolt had been placed halfway through this lead.
But all I could think of was how Conrad Anker had taken a huge whistler
somewhere on this climb just a few months ago.
As I climbed the next morning towards the start of the thin crack, I was already
more worried by the low fifth class scrambling I needed to overcome first. My
mouth was dry as I finally reached the first head placement. This pitch is
one of two truly spectacular pitches on this route. A white swath of granite,
hard and clean with the tiniest of seams capped by a slanting roof. I worked
my way along slowly and deliberately. I hesitated at the chicken bolt. I
wanted to pass it by and pull it as I cleaned but my conscience failed me as I
clipped a screamer into it. This bolt is really unecessary. I know that it has
saved at least one possibly injurous fall, but the fact is, if you are
careful, the pitch can be safely climbed without it. Besides, with all of the
slack in my lines due to soloing, it wouldn't have kept me from decking on
the death flake below. The "A1" crack towards the top opened my eyes to some
demented soul's concept of aiding. Thin arrows and a bugaboo or two pulled
me over the lip to two more copper heads and the waiting belay.
I figured that at only A3, the next lead would go a little faster than the
A4 pitch. I would soon learn my folly. Ten feet from the belay I found
myself hooking a completely fractured flake wondering what glue was holding
this decrepit piece in place. A few heads placed in more rotting rock
had me on my way up the next crack. Time slowed as I reached
the belay, I had enough daylight to drill one bomber bolt and set up my camp
and eat before dark. I was still on my pace enjoying the climbing, enjoying
the pain and fear. Radio reception was rapidly improving. My gramicci
ledge was even cooperating as I spent the night in unparalleled slumber.
Twenty feet into the next morning's lead had me staring at another belay. I
guess I stopped too early the day before, but there were plenty of old bolts
below. I clipped and kept moving carefully looking for the major loose block
rumored to be lurking on this pitch. I soon found what I was searching for
as I gingerly hammered a small angle behind its massive form. The rock all
around me shudderd with every slight tap. I stopped hammering for fear of
ripping the block loose. I sill had one more placement to make before getting
to the next rotting crack. I hand placed, and with one tap of the hammer
set the thick arrow on top of the loose block. Below there was finally life as
two climbers were starting the last pitch to awhannee ledge. It felt odd to see
other climbers below me. The end of my pitch was a supreme struggle up an
overhanging slot reminiscent of the days on the 'shroom. Inch by inch I finally
forced myself into the bowels of the next belay. Staring above I could see the
radically flexing flake that marked the next lead.
The hours slipped by as I neared the top of the flake. Once again, I was
in awe of what force was holding all of this climb in place. I was in a corner,
but nestled with me was a flake 40 feet tall, perfectly triangular in cross-
section, seemingly unnattached to anything else. Suspended by the will of
all previous climbers to pass by. Ten feet from the apex a clear fracture
line ran its full width. I placed a large alien near the top and watched in
horror as the cams flared open as I stood in my aiders. I rapidly transferred
back to my lower piece. I moved the cam lower but the flake still expanded
too much. I was afraid that I would finally free this rock from its
imprisonment if I applied full body weight. Instead, I lasooed the top, exhaled
and stood. I was now just in reach of the next crumbling pin placement.
The huge roof of the last pitch was now life size as I slugged my way up another
awkward overhanging corner. Three cheery bolts heralded my arrival. I looked
at my watch. By the time I rapped and cleaned the pitch, I would have enough
time to either lead the final pitch, guaranteeing that I would have to clean
in the dark, or comfortably set up one final bivy on this spectacular wall.
I chose the easier option and was soon feasting in my ledge. The bright
azure sky marked stark contrast with the rust coloured overhang looming above.
As the sky turned to a brilliant pink, I realized that soon my climb would
be over. On the one hand I wanted this climb to last forever; I wanted it
to be an never ending tribute to my sister. The millions of visitors that
would pass through the valley in the years to come could look upon the Leaning
Tower and see me and know. But what difference would it make to them. I
was the only one who knew the significance of this climb. I understand
the pain others feel when someone close to them dies. But I cannot understand
the mobs of sobbing spectators who cry for someone they never knew. Death is
a very personal thing.
My sleep that night was not as restful as before. I would wake and slowly
fix my stare to the roof above. It was massive. A dark brooding locomotive
carreening down the steep grade. Its shadow haunting me, tuanting me to
climb. I felt relieved and frightened as the sky once again brightened with
the dawning light of the next day. I soon found myself at the first of eight
placements I would make along the underbelly of the beast. Halfway through the
roof I would swing and twist with the fate of the wind. Hammering upside
down I dropped a 'biner and watched as it drifted towards impact completely
unimpeaded by anything but the air rushing past. It floated and tumbled
on its way to the ground. Finally, it hit, a slight ping echoed back up to
my ears. As I had helped Rachel do all those nights, I was flying. A big
fat bird suspended on the ether. At times I couldn't even feel the harness
biting into my hips. I could only feel the weightless wonderous feeling.
I pulled over the lip and dispensed with the final difficulties of the climb,
belly flopping my way onto the final ledge. I would eventually be back at my
car, looking blankly at the passers-by who could only stare at the filthly half
human that stood before them.
I took no pictures of this climb. Instead, like the many memories I have of
my sister, the memories of this climb will forever remain only in my mind.
Inez Drixelius
In article <5c37mg$5...@agate.berkeley.edu>, coo...@nuc.berkeley.edu (Eric
Coomer) wrote:
>
> Here's the deal. What follows is a very personal trip report. One I wrote
> for me and a couple of very close friends. I never thought I would post
> it.
Thank you, Eric. Nothing on this forum has ever moved me quite like your
post. I embrace, applaud and honor you for sharing this tribute with us.
Respectfully yours,
Inez
Chris Weaver
> > for me and a couple of very close friends. I never thought I would post
> > it.
If someone could please e-mail me the post from which the above quote comes, I
would appreciate it. My lame ISP can't seem to ever get their news server
problems ironed out and I frequently miss posts such as this. Thanks.
Chris Weaver
P.S. I will check dejanews as well.
FlameHeart
Hay,
I am going climbing in Robber's Roost canyon, Utah. It is near
GreenRiver.If anyone has any idea of some good data E-mail it to me
Thanx,
Nate Drexler
John Byrnes
FlameHeart (drex...@bvsd.k12.co.us) wrote:
> Hay,
Moo,
> I am going climbing in Robber's Roost canyon, Utah.
How very special.
> It is near GreenRiver.
That's nice.
>If anyone has any idea of some good data E-mail it to me
4134849, 380940238.0, 999878.087, 3.1459
> Thanx,
You're welcome.
-Lord Slime
Jeff Batten
TEST
Chris Weaver
Thanks to those who forwarded Eric's post to me. Like Inez, I was very
moved by the story. I hope that it will show us that the people we
interact with here are real and not just a name on an email address.
This realization would make rec.climbing (and the internet as a whole) a
much more meaningful place to communicate. Thanks for sharing it
with us, Eric.
Chris Weaver
Chris Weaver
Thanks to all who sent me the post. Please refrain from sending it again,
my ISP is screaming! :)
Chris Weaver
Radman
>Good question. I believe that the article mentioned that it appears that
>another group saw the desceased descending, as I understand it, by rappel.
>It is possible that his fall was due to an accident while rappelling.
>We'll have to wait for the invesigation to get a conclusion based on
>facts, though.
Salt Lake news stated yesterday that: the climber fell while rapping the route, This
was the first technical climbing fatality in the history of the park. So far the
news has been unclear as to weather it was an anchor failure or a human error that
caused the accident.
Radman
Anthony James Fitzsimons
hmpe...@aol.com writes: > What is SOLO AID? Without a cable to clip into, how can you use a rope
> alone, without first going to the top to set it up?
Solo aid is leading an aid climb with a self belay technique, such as a clove hitch,
or using a commercially made solo belay device such as Rock Exotica's Solist and Soloaid.
But what is this about death, did someone die while solo aiding?
tony
phil stuart-jones
It appears that Stone (nen...@earthlink.net) wrote:
> byr...@fc.hp.com (John Byrnes) wrote:
>
> >FlameHeart (drex...@bvsd.k12.co.us) wrote:
> >> Hay,
>
> >Moo,
No, *cows* moo, asses bray. City slicker, huh?
Geez, LS, you're having a ball at the moment! You've even got TB sniping
at you for sniping. All this chain yanking is cabin fever induced or are
you training for September?
A mere 27 degrees yesterday. Celcius. And we still had full winter snow
conditions in the mountains at the solstice. Go green, you northerners...
phil
* NO COMMERCIAL EMAIL. I pay for ALL email (in AND out); please respect it *
* Any commercial email received by me will be proofread at $NZ100 per line *
* Posting email to this address denotes total acceptance of this condition *
Stone
byr...@fc.hp.com (John Byrnes) wrote:
>FlameHeart (drex...@bvsd.k12.co.us) wrote:
>> Hay,
>Moo,
You are an ass whoever wrote this
>> I am going climbing in Robber's Roost canyon, Utah.
John Byrnes
phil stuart-jones (ph...@hyphen.southern.co.nz) wrote:
> No, *cows* moo, asses bray. City slicker, huh?
> Geez, LS, you're having a ball at the moment! You've even got TB sniping
> at you for sniping. All this chain yanking is cabin fever induced or are
> you training for September?
No, Cayman Brac in two weeks. Mort, et al, has put in about two dozen
new routes on a new wall down there. Several of them are 15 to 17 clips
plus anchors. We now have a 5.8 :-), some 9s, a whole bunch of 10s and
11s, many 12s and what appears to be a 13.
- Lord Slime
Greg Opland
tdonalek wrote:
> Dan Osman is an example of
> someone for whom the odds are quite slim that his mind/body will goof on a
> route that he has chosen to 'boulder'.
I think Dan Osman and Peter Croft are worlds apart. Croft seems to
be soloing for personal enjoyment and a love of movement while Dan
Osman has always been out there sucking up the spotlight doing crazy
stunts for the camera. He always struck me as someone who thought it
was cool that everyone thinks he's so "rad". I think Croft could care
less if anyone is even aware that he solos at all.
My $ .02
G.
John Young
Don't laugh, that 5.8 is for me!
After next week there will probably be a few more.
Slime's timing his trip perfectly :)
Mad Dog
Jeff Batten wrote:
>
> TEST
Wow, Batten's showin' off his testes again.
Mad "First Church of Slimatology" Dog
Robert Ternes
In article <5c60rl$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
bat...@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) wrote:
#
#TEST
Ahhh! Now they're BOTH BACK!!!!
Run for yer laives, lads!
Robert "Oh no, man, oh no" Ternes
rte...@u.arizona.edu
Greg Opland
hmpe...@aol.com wrote:
>
> What is SOLO AID? Without a cable to clip into, how can you use a rope
> alone, without first going to the top to set it up?
A few of the possible ways:
Clovehitch.
Gri-Gri (they say)
Jumar (people that do this scare me)
Rock Exitica Microscender (some guy on here said he did)
Rock Exotica Soloist(tm)
Rock Exotica Soloaid(tm)
$225!!! Rock Exotica Silent Partner(tm) Not on the market yet.
As for your next question, which undoubtably will deal with the
details of how exactly you use these items to perform some sort
of self-belay...uh...forget it. It's one of those things. If you
have to ask...
Happy Soloing!
G.
Jeffrey Papen
Yes we're both back but there are only two problems.
1. After my inexcusable flames last spring we won't be doing any
routers together again.
2. It's PAPEN with only two Ps. (pronounced like paper). I know
it's nice to have the whole change the B to a P and the two T's to P's
thing, but it's a sore spote with me.
Thanks,
- Jeffrey
P.S. LET'S GET READY TO RUUMBLLEEE!!!
Bring out your extinguishers boys, it's time to flame!
Amanda Tarr
Robert Ternes <rte...@u.arizona.edu> wrote:
>In article <5c60rl$r...@gap.cco.caltech.edu>,
> bat...@seismo.gps.caltech.edu (Jeff Batten) wrote:
>#
>#TEST
>
>Ahhh! Now they're BOTH BACK!!!!
>
>Run for yer laives, lads!
>
>Robert "Oh no, man, oh no" Ternes
>rte...@u.arizona.edu
Muhahaha! And we're _still_ gonna spell it pappen! :)
Amanda
Jeffrey Papen
ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU (Amanda Tarr) wrote:
>Amanda
Oh God NO! The humanity. All those years of good German upbringing
shot to hell. To be foiled and debased like this. The agony, the
shame, the self-loathing.
Oh well, guess I'll go get trashed.
- Jeffrey "Happiness is not at the bottem of a bottle. Happiness is
the journey from the bottom of one bottle to another" Papen
Jeffrey Papen
Not even close. Twice time rain and snow stopped us (cool rescues to
watch though). On another attempt, Batten slipped on a pendulum on
pitch 4 and dislocated his shoulder. (It was storming like crazy the
day before). We also didn't do Leaning Tower because my brain was on
getting dumped by my ex-girlfriend and totally not on climbing. No
better way to piss of a partner than to bag a route after schleping
everything to the base. I think my wall record is a contender for the
worst record ever. He had better luck going solo.
Good luck on Moonlight Batten.
- Jeffrey
big...@netcom12.netcom.com (Evan Bigall) wrote:
>Maybe I missed it amongst the flames and general stupidity, but did they
>get up the nose last spring?
>Evan
Evan Bigall
Tony Bubb
> ta...@refuge.Colorado.EDU (Amanda Tarr) wrote:
> >Muhahaha! And we're _still_ gonna spell it pappen! :)
> >Amanda
Patten, not Pappen.
-T.
P.S., I wonder what Bapen thinks about this?
hmpe...@aol.com
Then is it correct to assume that a roped solo only goes as high as the
length of your rope?
HP
Dave Newton
hmpe...@aol.com wrote:
> Then is it correct to assume that a roped solo only goes as high as the
> length of your rope?
Ah, yeah, sorta like any other roped climb.
--
Dave Newton | TOFU | (voice) (970) 225-4841
Symbios Logic, Inc. | Real Food for Real People. | (fax) (970) 226-9582
2057 Vermont Dr. | -- | david....@symbios.com
Ft. Collins, CO 80526 | Armed Radical Liberal | Free America
Pamela Holly Pack
You mention the Rock Exotica "Silent Partner" here--have you tried it
or anyone you know ? I hear it is excellent...and do you know anything
about the "modified" Gri-Gri for soloing--I'm hesitant to modify gear
like that generally, but I hear that the modified Gri-Gri is also
excellent for soloing...anyone have any info ?
Mad Dog
Evan Bigall wrote:
>
> Maybe I missed it amongst the flames and general stupidity,
>but did they get up the nose last spring?
The only thing Bappen got up his nose was his finger.
Mad "and Paten ate it!" Dog