Seneca Rocks TR (Long): Whose Idea Was This Anyway?
chriscl...@my-deja.com
was off work on Friday to honor Miners' Day, which falls on April 1
annually. It is a holiday to commemorate the first collective
bargaining agreement establishing an eight-hour work day. As far as I
know, the UMWA and the UMWA Health and Retirement Funds, where I work,
are the only celebrants of this holiday. You would think that working
an eight hour day might prove a more fitting tribute to the occasion
than an extra vacation day. It's a union thing, I guess. Still, I'm
happy to have the holiday just the same.
On Friday morning, Brian arrived to get me in Adams Morgan and we made
our way to Seneca. It was 10:25 as we began hiking to the crag. We
had discussed doing ten 5.10s or trying to do as many pitches as
possible in a day. I had mentioned that, someday, I would like to
accumulate a "gross" of climbing in a day. This feat would involve
climbing enough pitches so that their numerical suffixes would have a
sum of 144. Given our late start, I pretty much wrote off our chances
for completing either project.
Conditions were prime. Sunny and mild with virtually no wind. We
slowly ascended the East Face Trail. There was not a single party
visible on the rock. A chainsaw buzzed somewhere above the Southern
Pillar where a logging operation was underway. Periodically, a falling
tree crashed and rolled down the steep hillside. Once, a five foot
section of fat log tumbled over 1000 feet from above the Southern
Pillar all the way to Roy Gap Road.
Brian began our adventure with a lead of Psychoprophylaxsis (5.10).
Once, in a fit of pique over the crowds, I had rather pompously
announced that Psychopro was "the easiest 5.10 at Seneca" and then,
much to the amusement of my partners and assorted onlookers, I promptly
pitched off the crux. I guess I couldn't bear the weight of all that
extra hubris. Anyway, Brian had to hang once at the crux to figure out
the devious move. So it wasn't the most auspicious start in the
history of rock climbing. From the safety of the toprope, I managed to
pull the move.
Next, I led Unrelenting Verticality (5.10-). I've done this short
route several times in the past year so I was able to dispatch it
fairly quickly. Nevertheless, I was pleased to reach the safety of the
upper section where the gear improves markedly. Brian had no trouble
following it. After that, we moved to the East Face proper where I led
the short but sweet crack routes Castor and Pollux (5.10). After
finishing Pollux, I continued to the base of Organgeaid (5.10-) which
Brian led smoothly. Although we had lost the sun, we finished our East
Face sojourn with a fine bolted route called Hidden Assets (5.10).
This route required more finger strength and less crack technique than
the other routes that we had done. I worried that I spent too much of
my rapidly dwindling power following Brian's lead.
With six pitches of 5.10 done, we followed Broadway Ledge around to the
West Face and the sun. Neither Brian nor I have much love for that
exposed traverse but it beats walking down and around. I roped up for
the short first pitch of Sidewinder (5.10+) and launched into it before
I had a chance to reconsider. Relying on momentum and muscle memory, I
did the tricky mantle/sidepull crux. The gear placement above was
somewhat more disappointing than I recalled but I knew that the finish
wasn't too bad. I had Brian lower me to the ground from draws in the
shuts and belayed him from there. He made the route look easy.
Seven 5.10 pitches down and three to go. I led Cottonmouth (5.10)
which I had done the previous weekend so the moves and gear were fresh
in my mind. As it turned out, I needed all the help that I could get.
I milked the stems for all they were worth and groaned to reach the
shuts. Brian did not appear to have any problems while following. He
took the lead for Venom (5.10) and, after a little hesitation getting
established in the flake, blasted to the top.
While we were doing these routes, Brad, one of the Gendarme guides, led
Hit the Silk (5.11R/X) after toproping it to spot the gear. I had
belayed Graham Dower on that route several years ago when he led it in
perfect style and find it pretty impressive when anyone does it on
lead, previewed or otherwise. Actually, Brad and Adam, another guide,
had been working the same route last weekend when I led Cottonmouth so
it was like deja vu all over again for all of us.
It was 5:45. We had one pitch of 5.10 left to reach ten. I was wasted
and didn't want to lead anything else. Although toproping would
diminish the style of our day, I suggested Brian lead Marshall's
Madness and then we could toprope Mongoose (5.10) for our last route.
Brian correctly opined that we would regret this proposed lapse later.
Broken Neck (5.10), another option, seemed a bit stout at this point in
the day. In the end, Brian chose to lead Marshall's to Crack of Dawn
(5.10-). As I belayed him, the sun dipped below the ridge and the wind
picked up. Soon I was cold. Brad and Adam left. Brian made steady
progress and reached the shuts high above with time enough for me to
clean the route and rappel before dark.
I let Brian rap the single rope to the ground and, instead of hauling
up our extra line, figured that I would just rappel to the station atop
the first pitch of Marshall's and then rappel to the ground. I had
done this before and didn't think it would be a problem. Well,
apparently, I had forgotten what a major hassle it is to reach the
Marshall's station. Also, I suddenly remembered that I had used a 210'
rope in my previous rappel. After rappelling to within 3' of the end
of the rope, I was hanging in space far to the right of the station.
At Brian's urging, I tied a knot in the rope ends. After some rather
comical gyrations, I got a finger on the wall and began to pendulum
gradually towards the station. Finally, I thrust my leg in the
offwidth next to the station and managed to clip into the shuts. As a
bonus, I successfully retained one end of the rope as it exited my
ATC. I reached the ground at 7. We stumbled back to the car in total
darkness.
After a few celebratory beers and a pizza at Harper's, we crashed at
the 4-U Motel. When I awoke, I was certain that I wasn't going to do
any climbing whatsoever that day and, frankly, I didn't really see any
particular reason to climb again ever. My shoulders and back ached.
After a few cups of coffee, I was willing to go up to the East Face to
soak up some sun and see how things went. In contrast to Friday,
Saturday was very crowded. There was no one on High Test (5.9+) so I
led it. Physically, I was okay, but my head just wasn't into it. From
the High Test anchors, I toproped Low Octane (5.11). I managed to do
the crux one way but figured that there had to be an easier way so I
tried it another way which proved just as hard. Strangely, the hard
toproping got me motivated. Yet, I knew that, if I sat still for
awhile, the spell would pass.
Brian was similarly suffering from malaise. We lounged in the sun and
I smoked a cigarette. Someone dropped a nut pick from Orangeaid which
struck the foot of a guy belaying his partner on Castor. Rock wasn't
called and tempers flared. Curses were exchanged. Maybe the party who
dropped the nut pick didn't know that it had come unclipped. Who
knows? Still, he might have apologized after the fact. On the other
hand, the Castor belayer claimed that there was some rule at Seneca
that dropped gear belongs to the finder even if the dropper promptly
acts to retrieve it or, maybe, belongs to whomever it strikes. Or
maybe the rule is that you lose it if you don't call rock and it hits
someone. I don't know but I think they both acted like ding-a-lings.
I heard a ruckus from the West Face and later learned that someone had
died in No Dalley Alley. The rescuers from above knocked at least one
large rock down upon those rescuers coming from below. At the time, we
didn't know that a rescue was underway and assumed that either lost
tourists or wayward climbers wandering in the no man's land of loose
rock below the North Peak caused the rockfall. I imagine that the
extrication was extremely difficult.
Finally, Brian and I decided to set up a top rope on the Changeling
(5.11) and Terra Firma (5.11). I mismanaged my feet and fell reaching
past the first bolt on the Changeling. Drat. I did, however, find a
circuitous path through the slopers of the direct finish. Brian had a
similar foot hold problem near the second bolt and misread the direct
finish. We both successfully climbed Terra Firma but, even after
toproping it cleanly many times, I still don't have the urge to attempt
a lead. To finish our mental rest day, we toproped Spock's Brain
(5.11) which felt positive and moderate after Terra Firma.
As we marched down Roy Gap Road towards the parking lot, a large group
of climbers and assorted medical personnel was gathered around an
ambulance. The body of the person who perished in No Dalley Alley was
loaded into a body bag and then placed into the ambulance. An uneasy
quiet embraced the gap. As we passed, I shuddered at the sight of the
blood stained litter, a sober reminder of the risks inherent in our
sport. Questions came to mind but went unanswered.
The rest of the story is familiar. A pit stop at Harper's for
refreshment before the road home. As we drive, we talk of climbs both
done and still to come. The talk grows more bold as the crag shrinks
in the distance. Finally, we reach the Strasburg Inn and eat. It was
a great two days of climbing with a really solid partner.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Bob Austin
the climbing on the East Coast and particularly a great place like Seneca.
I've never been there but by all reports, it's certainly a place that I want
to visit.
--
Regards,
Bob Austin
<chriscl...@my-deja.com> wrote in message
news:8cak1o$dj2$1...@nnrp1.deja.com...
Mike Sofranko
It's been a couple years, and I'm longing to get back there.
chriscl...@my-deja.com wrote:
> Although we had lost the sun, we finished our
> East Face sojourn with a fine bolted route
> called Hidden Assets (5.10).
Where is this route? I don't have the guidebook in front of me, but
it doesn't sound familiar. Recent addition?
> Brad, one of the Gendarme guides, led Hit the Silk
> (5.11R/X) after toproping it to spot the gear.
A Robin Erbesfield (sp?) FA. Pre world cup days, I suppose.
Interesting trivia, nonetheless. Where exactly is that line? That
wall is really lichen-covered as I remember. I've TRed Broken Neck
and the wall just to the right (within an arms reach of the crack),
but it didn't feel 5.11 to me.
-mike
rick
>I continued to the base of Organgeaid (5.10-) which
>Brian led smoothly.
The easiest 5.10- on the East coast. I thought when I first did it in
'85 it was 5.8. Came back in '94 and did it again only to feel it was
easier (except the bat living there).
"everythings cake"
d
chriscl...@my-deja.com
rick <cone...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> The easiest 5.10- on the East coast. I thought when I first did it in
> '85 it was 5.8. Came back in '94 and did it again only to feel it was
> easier (except the bat living there).
>
> "everythings cake"
> d
>
guidebook. I think it was rated 5.9 when I first did it during the mid-
80s. But so was almost every alleged 5.10 that we did on Friday.
I agree that it's not very hard but it's a pretty nice route. I found
many of the 5.10 routes at the New River Gorge and a few Gunks routes
easier for their grade.
Steve Miller
accident was certainly a shame though. ...Steve
Mike Sofranko
>
> Nice TR, Chris. Your Saturday would be a
> dream day at Seneca for me.
I of course meant 'Friday.' Unions got me all confused. If I ever
make it back to Seneca, I'm not going to toprope stuff.
-mike
Scott Grimes
by Bill Webster. With the FA in 1966 by Carpenter/Wallen, puts the aid in
Orange'aid', & the FA by Stannard 1971. From what I remember its a great
finger crack with ample pro, stoppers/TCU's on dead vertical rock for about
125' with great exposure over looking the east face of the south peak. Call
it 5.whatever its a great climb that can be very challenging
--
Regards,
Scott Grimes
Live Mean Climb Clean
or Vise-Versa'
sgr...@inet.net
rick
Short bastard started slamming me in front of his clients for his own
ego. I have no repect for that piece of shit.
Anyway, I still say Orangeaid is not 5.9 and never should have been
rated 5.10-. Too bad weak people want to modernize all the grades
around the country.
d
chriscl...@my-deja.com
> Anyway, I still say Orangeaid is not 5.9 and never should have been
> rated 5.10-. Too bad weak people want to modernize all the grades
> around the country.
>
Why does this phenomenon bother you so much? The routes are still the
same regardless of what it says in the guidebook.
rick
>Why does this phenomenon bother you so much? The routes are
>still the same regardless of what it says in the guidebook.
I dislike people searching for an ever higher grade. Climbing should
ideally be a self challenge and not a numbers chasing game. 10+ years
ago many guide authors tried to normalize grade nationwide with poor
success. Seneca, for the better part of it's glory days (1970's) was
known to have stiff ratings which could have been a good thing. It
might have taught humility to the climbing masses. When ratings are
placed on a similar scale (or attempts made toward that end) areas and
the routes loose this aura. As has been churned over and over in
wreck.climbing and in campfire discussions ratings are purely
subjective. When a guide author sets down his interpretation of ratings
in print it is instantly open to critique. Daugherty's Canadian rockies
guide is the classic sandbag. Layne Kopiska's (sp here) first attempts
at Vedauwoo's guides were all over the scale. Bjornstad's first Desert
Rock was filled with misinformation (leading to an adventure in finding
the routes....). But there are far more padded guides floating about.
Maybe it is simply more fun to read and laugh at what is different.
...now Orangeaid
Saying it's 5.8 would attract a number of novice leaders to it. In this
day that may be inviting disaster as too few know how to safely place
gear. Good thing it is a crack and eats whatever you could throw into
it. So Joe Bob 5.9 leader gets on the route. Hangs once and sez "damn,
that was stiff for 5.8". What harm has been done? Now rate it 5.10-,
half of the gym trained climbers won't touch it. "Seneca trad 5.10, oh
my god". Jesus Christ it's not Nip and Tuck. Many will never know if
they could have succeeded. It sits, and sits until some brave lassie
(or lad) jumps up and does it. "I've done a Seneca 5.10" he/she/it
proclaims as he sits on the Gendarme's porch. Well I've eaten Spam so
what?
d
Ken....@alumni.cs.cmu.edu
> Fuck Tony Barnes and the horse he rode in on.
>
> Short bastard started slamming me in front of his clients for his own
> ego. I have no repect for that piece of shit.
Oh yeah?
You must have screwed up pretty badly to raise Tony's Ire.
Care to tell us what happened? Be honest - I have Tony's phone number.
Ken
blyslv
<cone...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
SNIP
>success. Seneca, for the better part of it's glory days
(1970's) was
>known to have stiff ratings which could have been a good thing.
It
>might have taught humility to the climbing masses.
SNIP
One of the masses here. I'm not sure what you mean by "glory
days". I learned to lead at Seneca and have always been in awe
of the place. It humbled me on more than one ocassion and I
consider myself lucky to have worked through most of the 5.easy
grades there. This was in the mid to late 90s. My only regret
is that I never got to climb the Gendarme.
blyslv
* Sent from RemarQ http://www.remarq.com The Internet's Discussion Network *
The fastest and easiest way to search and participate in Usenet - Free!
chriscl...@my-deja.com
understanding of where you're coming from now.
rick
I was at the base of a 5.7 route belaying a friend. Barnes strolls up
with two clients. Starts saying "my belay has the lowest coefficient of
friction, blah blah blah". Then he blurts out "ever caught any
falls?". I said "yes, several 20 footers" in a mild responsive tone
(which is true, both in intonation and the fact that I have caught
falls). He then said "well, works for you" (in a baaaaadddd tone). The
proceeds to walk off telling the clients how that method is very
dangerous and unsafe and my partner is going to die, etc etc. all in
such an extremely pompous way making sure I can hear him as he continues
on his tirade for the next 5 minutes.
...then, my partner KM starts giving me shit about how he's falling off
and gonna deck.... Needless, KM's first day at Seneca (in a typical
drizzle for the East Coast) was his last at the rock quality and
attitudes of the locals drove him off.
I have survived enough climbing adventures over the last 20 years
(including my mentorship by Seneca local Hunt "Adonis" Prothro) to know
when I'm right and a prick guide is wrong.
rick donnelly
"the gimp"
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Ken-
>
> I was at the base of a 5.7 route belaying a friend. Barnes strolls up
> with two clients. Starts saying "my belay has the lowest coefficient of
> friction, blah blah blah". Then he blurts out "ever caught any
> falls?". I said "yes, several 20 footers" in a mild responsive tone
> (which is true, both in intonation and the fact that I have caught
> falls). He then said "well, works for you" (in a baaaaadddd tone). The
> proceeds to walk off telling the clients how that method is very
> dangerous and unsafe and my partner is going to die, etc etc. all in
> such an extremely pompous way making sure I can hear him as he continues
> on his tirade for the next 5 minutes.
Oh, you belay with a figure-8 device in death rappel mode!
It all makes sense now.
There's no mystery as to why Tony questioned your technique - more
people are dropped by use of it than with other devices, and Tony is
frequently involved in the cleanup. Petzl says "DANGER!" in their
graphic depicting the technique, though it could be worse as some
really bad methods earn a skull-and-crossbones.
Basically, your method slips at around 3/4 the force of belay plates,
and is not advisable when high fall forces are likely.
In any event, it doesn't sound like Tony was on an ego trip. More
likely he was trying to help you learn safer techniques, not to
mention teach his class appropriately.
> I have survived enough climbing adventures over the last 20 years
> (including my mentorship by Seneca local Hunt "Adonis" Prothro) to know
> when I'm right and a prick guide is wrong.
And who was you said had the ego problem?
Ken
Scott Grimes
had many a casual conversation with him on & off the rocks and he's always
been very social. Perhaps it was just a bad day. Ever have one?
Scott Grimes
perception of the FA & FFA accentors. During this time period a 5.9 was
consider to be very difficult. As climbing grew in membership, quality &
type of gear, training regimes etc. the bar was & is still being raised.
Therefore, what was "very difficult" yesterday is moderate today. Seneca,
just like almost any other climbing areas, rich in history is going to
suffer through some growing pains, Uh' is it a 5.9+ or a 5.10- no man it's
no harder than a 5.8. I seriously doubt that Stannard contemplated the
rating of the climb as much as you have or any of the guide book authors and
their subsequent revised editions.
Climbers who use the rating of a climb as a yardstick to judge the ease or
quality of route are being a bit shortsighted. That said, I do not support
the idea of throwing yourself at a 5.11 with good pro and your best lead to
date is 5.3. But the learned climber, if they remove the blinders of
apprehension, will find a list of routes that are well within their
abilities and speaking from experience this can be harder than the crux on
any climb.
Try not to split hairs over the ratings it will jade your experience.
rick
>Basically, your method slips at around 3/4 the force of belay plates,
>and is not advisable when high fall forces are likely.
God damn I can read you know. You need the belay of Alex Karr to put the
fear of god in you. It's called grip and technique. Obviously not for
the novice.
It also appears that Petzl's site supports only the munter (barely, but
hey it's free) and avidly promotes their own gri gri. All the belays
get the death mode for a downward force when belaying a second except
their Almighty gri.
Yea, well let Tony keep his mouth shut. I really don't like being
lectured to especially by some no name Seneca guide. A simple hello is
all I wanted, not some gurn by 'the educator'. Still fuck him!
So high fall forces...
I don't use such a system for big air potential nor for aiding. When I
do run up an easy route I will use it. No need for anything else. I
don't carry a stitch unless I'm double roping and sometimes use a munter
but try to avoid because of the kinking issue. Never owned a tuber or
such, and would certainly never use a gri-gri nor buy one. I'd rather
return to hip belaying with a bowline on a coil. But hey, I was trained
in a true dynamic belay system. A figure 8 can provide an adequate
belay and a smooth decent device. Having rapped with stitches and other
modes on poor anchors I'm really not too found of ripping things out and
taking the fast way to the ground. But then again I also support the
free/cheap ideas in climbing. No one should be allowed out without
learning a biner brake and how to use slings. Another bad taste in my
mouth about Barnes et al is the instruction they give on cordolettes.
That is the most fucking worthless advise anyone can provide. "Here
boy, carry this perlon all spooled up an use it ... just here" What?
It is more important to be creative and knowledgeable about all the gear
you have floating on you rack. Know how to make cheaters with 2+ nuts,
know how all the gear you have goes in (including using biners and knots
as pro). They said of Bill Forrest that he could build a belay on a
scree slope. Well, everyone should be able to do that.
as for the last comments-
I felt I needed to ad something in the way of qualifications. I'm not
some smedley with 2 years of climbing in a gym (but I did burn down the
gym in Baltimore....)
d
Ross
... the belay of Alex Karr to put the fear of god in you.
Is he climbing again? He still owes me 20$ the fuck.
--Ross
rick
>>the belay of Alex Karr to put the fear of god in you.
>Is he climbing again? He still owes me 20$ the fuck.
Glad to somebody with a sense of humor. Last I heard he moved off eto
the midwest or something.
d
rick
Well John Stannard climbed in different boots (not sticky soles), with
different gear (harder to place nuts vs active camming?).
jade my experience?
i just said to Chris that he was having a wonderful el cap day at Seneca
(right on Chris) doing 5.10's and made comments on the easiest of the
bunch which in my all glowing opinion does not warrent the grade below
it's latest tag.
d
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Ken-
>
> It also appears that Petzl's site supports only the munter (barely, but
> hey it's free) and avidly promotes their own gri gri. All the belays
> get the death mode for a downward force when belaying a second except
> their Almighty gri.
Look again, Petzl is suggesting that those techniques are very
dangerous when used for direct belays. Off the harness is a different
matter.
> Yea, well let Tony keep his mouth shut. I really don't like being
> lectured to especially by some no name Seneca guide. A simple hello is
> all I wanted, not some gurn by 'the educator'. Still fuck him!
Tony is a good guy and it is pretty clear he was trying to help. You
may not agree with him, but that doesn't make him a jerk. By the way,
I've heard some very knowledgeable voices basically agree with Tony on
this call.
> So high fall forces...
>
> I don't use [the figure 8 death belay] for big air potential nor for
> aiding. When I do run up an easy route I will use it. No need for
> anything else.
The funny thing is that I usually run it out on easy routes and need a
more secure belay rather than less. I have been belayed with your
technique, but only in circumstances with lots of good gear. The
difference is I wouldn't take offense if someone tried to make sure I
knew what I was doing.
> I don't carry a stitch unless I'm double roping and sometimes use a
> munter but try to avoid because of the kinking issue. Never owned a
> tuber or such, and would certainly never use a gri-gri nor buy one.
> I'd rather return to hip belaying with a bowline on a coil. But
> hey, I was trained in a true dynamic belay system.
You're a true reactionary, huh?
> Another bad taste in my mouth about Barnes et al is the instruction
> they give on cordolettes. That is the most fucking worthless advise
> anyone can provide. "Here boy, carry this perlon all spooled up an
> use it ... just here" What?
My god man! A guide teaching a technique that has gained wide
acceptance - I can't believe it!
Maybe you should take this one up with the AMGA. I'd enjoy watching
them laugh in your face, except they are pros and would more likely
politely accept your comments and laugh when you weren't around.
The bottom line here is Tony doesn't deserve your criticism. You
don't have to like him, but he is far from being the arrogant jerk
that you portrayed.
Sheesh.
Ken
Mike Sofranko
>
> I was at the base of a 5.7 route belaying a friend.
> Barnes strolls up with two clients. Starts saying
> "my belay has the lowest coefficient of
> friction, blah blah blah".
Don't let Tony get to you too much. Just picture him as a little
terrier that won't quit barking, the runt of the litter. Works for
me.
Yeah, he's a dork with sub-par people skills, but he's also usually
right. My partners and I incurred the Wrath of Barnes a few years
ago... Don't take it too personally and you might learn something.
-mike
chris
Seneca's ratings, AGAIN.
Yeah rick, you're right. Orangeaid was originally graded 5.9, so why
not leave it there?... Oh yeah, and Spocks brain, Muscle Beach, Terra
Firma, The Changeling, Sidewinder, Autumn Fire, and a whole slew of
others were rated 5.10 when their first ascents were made, so that means
that we shouldn't change those either, right? As for The Bell, Dracula,
Bansai, Innocence, etc, the YDS once said that no route can be harder
than 5.10, so those should all be down rated too. Drop Zone used to
have an aid rating, so why call it .11b now? it should be A2. You can
spray on and on about how much of a hard man you are and how Orangeaid
should be rated 5.8, but unless you want to rewrite the entire guidbook,
listing the original ratings, you're arguing a mute point.
-Chris-
Scott Grimes
I originally wrote in support of Mr. Barnes:
>Sorry that you had a bad experience with the aforementioned Barnes. I've
>had many a casual conversation with him on & off the rocks and he's always
>been very social. Perhaps it was just a bad day. Ever have one?
I also gleaned the following from one of your responses to Rick:
>Maybe you should take this one up with the AMGA. I'd enjoy watching
>them laugh in your face, except they are pros and would more likely
>politely accept your comments and laugh when you weren't around.
&
>The bottom line here is Tony doesn't deserve your criticism. You
>don't have to like him, but he is far from being the arrogant jerk
>that you portrayed
If you care to, please respond to the following:
On numerous occasion while climbing at Seneca I seen guides under Mr.Barnes
tutelage/employment use very questionable belay/safe climbing techniques
while working with clients.
Example (1)
Guide belaying two climbers up Front "C" using a direct belay off of the
Front "C" rappel tree. The belay device was an ATC. & the guides position
in reference to the tree/belay device was behind his left shoulder. Now I
may be splitting hairs here, mainly because there did not seem to be a high
potential for shock loading but it just seemed a bit unorthodox to use an
ATC on a direct belay.
Example (2)
Guide working with to very obvious first timers on the south end. Proceeds
to give the obligatory basics..."this is a Carabineer" etc. then proceeds
to solo, trailing a rope behind him, up to the shuts at the belay at the
base of the Totem Roof to set up a TR, 5.5 I think. Would this be a good
practice to do in front of such beginners.
Although these questionable practices were not conducted by Barnes, wouldn't
the guides who work with/under him be subject to the same set of standards &
practices he was rattling off when he had his run in with Rick. And if he
new of these practices would he object to them as strongly as he did Rick's
technique. Do you think guides wear there titles on their sleeves
sometimes?
In both cases I just kept my mouth shut. (perhaps I should continue too do
so) Based on what I saw, both instance were probably not endangering the
clients but were the guides using the best technique or system. Why is it
then when Rick and, maybe others, who have been scathed by guides have to
tolerate what I hope is meant to be constructive criticism....what's good
for the goose is good for the guide.
Sometimes its not the message, but it is who & how it is delivered.
Inez Drixelius
<sgr...@inet.net> wrote:
>
> On numerous occasion while climbing at Seneca I seen guides under Mr.Barnes
> tutelage/employment use very questionable belay/safe climbing techniques
> while working with clients.
Is Barnes the guy they call "The Mouth of Seneca?"
--
Inez Drixelius
Berkeley, California
rick
I'm not. Cline wanted the full details and I presented them. I though
Barnes was an ass. I really don't care what anyone else offers. I'll
make my own analysis and determine if some technique should be accepted
into my system. I resent being told how to do something. Now if say,
you see some guy leapfroggng friends in an unstable manner on sandstone
without leaving any pieces behind it is probably ok to say "dude, your
gonna die".
..anyway keep that little rat fucking terrier Barnes away from me.
d
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> Ken-
>
> If you care to, please respond to the following:
>
> On numerous occasion while climbing at Seneca I seen guides under Mr.Barnes
> tutelage/employment use very questionable belay/safe climbing techniques
> while working with clients.
My first comment is that this isn't a particularly good place to
discuss the safety practices of a guide service that doesn't have
representation here. If you have concerns, take them to to Tony or
the AMGA.
I hold both guide services at Seneca (Tony's and Tom's) in high
esteem. They are AMGA affiliated, and routinely go through
re-evaluation to maintain their status. Their safety records speak
for themselves. My personal experience with Tony (as a friend, not
client) at Seneca leads me to believe he both practices and recommends
safer techniques than most climbers use.
> Example (1)
>
> Guide belaying two climbers up Front "C" using a direct belay off of the
> Front "C" rappel tree. The belay device was an ATC. & the guides position
> in reference to the tree/belay device was behind his left shoulder. Now I
> may be splitting hairs here, mainly because there did not seem to be a high
> potential for shock loading but it just seemed a bit unorthodox to use an
> ATC on a direct belay.
There's nothing wrong with using an ATC in a direct belay if the
device can be properly locked off. Of course if rigged too high, an
ATC direct belay provides very little braking power.
> Example (2)
>
> Guide working with to very obvious first timers on the south end. Proceeds
> to give the obligatory basics..."this is a Carabineer" etc. then proceeds
> to solo, trailing a rope behind him, up to the shuts at the belay at the
> base of the Totem Roof to set up a TR, 5.5 I think. Would this be a good
> practice to do in front of such beginners.
You asked for *my* opinion, and I think this is perfectly acceptable.
Guides don't fall on familiar 5.5's - it just isn't part of the
program. Having the guide place intermediate pro for the purpose of
fooling clients seems to me to be a pile of political correctness. No
thank you - I'd rather have the honest truth.
Let me digress... Derek Hersey was one of my heroes when I learned to
climb. He was a guide, a notorious free soloist, and a sandbagger of
the highest caliber. I met him in Yosemite, where I watched him use
textbook technique tying in short as he jugged up towards the seagull
pitch on (what?) Mescalito. He influenced me in at least two ways:
First, I firmly adopted the practice of tying in short while jumaring;
and second I try to be as warm and friendly as he was while
sandbagging me mates. Honesty is more important to me than some
safety patrol image.
> Although these questionable practices were not conducted by Barnes, wouldn't
> the guides who work with/under him be subject to the same set of standards &
> practices he was rattling off when he had his run in with Rick.
Again, this is a better question for the guide service or the AMGA.
However, having seen Tony climb, I do not believe he was being
hypocritical in the least. It is also important to understand that
some climbers will take offence when you question their (sometimes
very) dangerous technique no matter how politely you do so. My best
guess is that Rick is overreacting.
By the way, I talked to Tony today and told him how to read this
thread on Deja News. He does not recall the incident, and so didn't
have a lot of ego invested in it.
> In both cases I just kept my mouth shut. (perhaps I should continue too do
> so) Based on what I saw, both instance were probably not endangering the
> clients but were the guides using the best technique or system. Why is it
> then when Rick and, maybe others, who have been scathed by guides have to
> tolerate what I hope is meant to be constructive criticism....what's good
> for the goose is good for the guide.
You seem to care about these specific issues a lot more than I do, so
I recommend that you discuss them with Tony. You can often find him
at the Gendarme or on the rocks (Seneca isn't that big of a place!),
or contact me for his email address.
The main issue for me is not safety: Rick's belay method works
acceptably if fall forces remain low; the guides were probably acting
within an acceptable margin of safety. No - I'm more concerned with
Rick's strong reaction to a very modest bit of advice. I called him
on it because I doubted that Tony acted outrageously enough to warrant
the abuse:
Fuck Tony Barnes and the horse he rode in on.
Short bastard started slamming me in front of his clients for his own
ego. I have no repect for that piece of shit.
What do you think?
Ken
rick
Uh, I think you missed the point. We are discussing guides and their
PhD's in bullshit.
rick d
Stylianos Perissakis
> Guides don't fall on familiar 5.5's - it just isn't part of the
> program. Having the guide place intermediate pro for the purpose of
> fooling clients seems to me to be a pile of political correctness. No
> thank you - I'd rather have the honest truth.
and then:
> Let me digress... Derek Hersey was one of my heroes when I learned to
> climb. He was a guide, a notorious free soloist, and a sandbagger of
> the highest caliber. I met him in Yosemite, where I watched him use
> textbook technique tying in short as he jugged up towards the seagull
> pitch on (what?) Mescalito. He influenced me in at least two ways:
> First, I firmly adopted the practice of tying in short while jumaring;
So Derek influenced you to tie in short frequently, but the other guy
wouldn't influence you to solo on "familiar ground". Great. You have
excellend judgement and you are obviously a thinking individual. Do you
think everybody is ? How about the impressionable kid that will be
wowed to see his fearless guide solo ?
Demonstration of safe practices goes hand in hand with teaching. Nothing
to do with hypocrisy or political correctness.
Stelios
chris
Rick-
Uh, I think you missed the point. Are you not the one who started this
mess by stating that Orangeaid should be downrated to 5.8?
-Chris-
rick
let us do some cruching.
Without ratings, what is comparable to the line Orangeaid in difficulty
at Seneca? At the Gunks? At Eldorado? At Rifle? At the Grand Canyon?
The Grand Teton? Ruth Gorge? Towers de Paine?
I feel Orangeaid is similar to Triple S and nowhere near as strenuous as
Breakneck, Crack of Dawn, Caster, or Pollux. ...and not close to Nip
and Tuck or High Test. I forget the names of the 5.9's in the area but
if you can name a few I bet Orangeaid falls below them in energy output.
Now let us take something like Generic Crack, I know its hands (and two
pods) and Supercrack. They are both 5.9/5.10- for the first crack bits
and I'd say they are stiffer than the putzaly little Orangeaid, would
you knot? [ ; ) ].
Then say Bishop's Terrace, same? harder? waaaaaay easier? Reed's
direct? Luna's?
ok ok, fingerish, 5.10-...uummmmmmmmmmm
10- range...3rd pitch of Reunion (prescott), naw a wee tad harder than
Orangeaid. Finger Banger (catalina's), harder. Ok, 5.9 range Hangover
at East wall (aahhhhhh, splat, ouch that hurts my legs-oh that was
Layback or Layover or something?). Sucubus? No, no, I got it Easy
Chair!!!!!!!
can some people out there come up with what they believe to be true a
few 5.8's, 5.9's and 5.10-'s, finger sized about 60 - 80 feet in length?
rick d
chriscl...@my-deja.com
inez...@uclink4.berkeley.edu (Inez Drixelius) wrote:
>
> Is Barnes the guy they call "The Mouth of Seneca?"
>
I've never heard anyone call Tony by that name. I think Tony's an
extremely capable guide and a really super person. I'm sorry that my
offhanded reference to him as the author of the guidebook has turned
into a slanderfest.
Maybe the poor fellow who died last weekend could have used some timely
intervention from Tony or someone else who is not afraid to point out
dangerous practices.
Emil Briggs
>
>
> Guides don't fall on familiar 5.5's - it just isn't part of the
> program. Having the guide place intermediate pro for the purpose of
> fooling clients seems to me to be a pile of political correctness. No
> thank you - I'd rather have the honest truth.
>
Wrong -- guides do fall on familiar easy stuff -- all it takes is a
broken hold. There was a recent case where a guide
died in the Tetons on something familiar and easy. I also seem to
remember an article by a woman climber (Alison Osius maybe?)
where she fell on an easy familiar route when a hold broke -- she
wasn't soling though and her client caught her fall.
Emil
Christian
Mike Sofranko <mi...@remove.this.fc.hp.com> wrote:
> Yeah, he's a dork with sub-par people skills, but he's also usually
> right. My partners and I incurred the Wrath of Barnes a few years
> ago... Don't take it too personally and you might learn something.
>
> -mike
Sounds like Slime.
Christian ;?)
Mike Sofranko
>
> I think Tony's an extremely capable guide
> and a really super person. I'm sorry that my
> offhanded reference to him as the author of
> the guidebook has turned into a slanderfest.
I agree with this. I know I participated in the slanderfest, but the
guy isn't even here to defend himself so this is all kind of lame (me
included). Sounds like Rick needs some anger management or self
esteem counseling or something, but I've seen Tony Barnes in action
and his delivery of good free advice could be a little better. Tony
*is* an extremely capable guide and I *highly* recommend him to any
new climber.
> Maybe the poor fellow who died last weekend
> could have used some timely intervention from
> Tony or someone else who is not afraid to point
> out dangerous practices.
Agreed.
-mike
chris
rick wrote:
>
> Ok Chris,
>
> let us do some cruching.
Sounds good to me
> Without ratings, what is comparable to the line Orangeaid in difficulty
> at Seneca? At the Gunks? At Eldorado? At Rifle? At the Grand Canyon?
> The Grand Teton? Ruth Gorge? Towers de Paine?
> I feel Orangeaid is similar to Triple S and nowhere near as strenuous as
> Breakneck, Crack of Dawn, Caster, or Pollux. ...and not close to Nip
> and Tuck or High Test. I forget the names of the 5.9's in the area but
> if you can name a few I bet Orangeaid falls below them in energy output.
I'd have to disagree with you about Castor, Pollux, Crack of Dawn, and
Madmen only. In my opinion these are the easiest 10s at Seneca, and ,
Nip and Tuck is nowhere near as hard as people pump it to be. Orangeaid
is strenuous.
>
> Now let us take something like Generic Crack, I know its hands (and two
> pods) and Supercrack. They are both 5.9/5.10- for the first crack bits
> and I'd say they are stiffer than the putzaly little Orangeaid, would
> you knot? [ ; ) ].
Never been to the 'creek yet so I can't say too much about this. I do
know that the climbing is different there, IC being pure jamming where
on OA you do some face moves as well. This makes the two area's rating
incomparrable , IMO.
The answer to our question is that there is no answer. Where a
particular route that caters to your particular strnegths, style, etc
will feel easier to you, someone who does not have the same
characteristics as you will feel it is harder, and Vice-versa. I got on
the Changeling a couple months ago and felt like it was one of the
easiest .11s I've ever been on. Why? Not because it's easer than .11c,
but because the crux is a technical reach move which caters perfectly to
my tall lanky body. My friend got on the same route a few day ago and
got totally shut down. Why? Not because hes not as strong as me or
that it's stiff for the grade, bu because his short legs and arms made
that move feel more like 5.13. Ratings are so subjective that you have
to take the consensus of what people agree on as a whole. The consensus
as a whole feels that Orangeaid(and the Changeling) are right on for the
grade.
Who cares anyways? It's an incredibly beutiful route and thats all the
matters in the first place!
Peace,
-Chris-
John Byrnes
> Mike Sofranko <mi...@remove.this.fc.hp.com> wrote:
> My partners and I incurred the Wrath of Barnes a few years
> > ago... Don't take it too personally and you might learn something.
>
Beware of imitations.
- Lord Slime
rick
So are any of the 10- grouping deserving of THAT grade? If so, then
drop them all down. And with Orangeaid ask Tony Lorenzo and Pat Andrews
what they thought of it climbing as my partners. Neither had trouble
with it or frankly at the time thought it was hard.
...when it all comes down to it Seneca is a pile of rotting rubble that
just so happens to be near Washington DC. There are no classic high
quality lines to be found there although some (easier) have exposure (if
that counts).
...and for that matter, the entire fucking east coast sucks (with
exception of only Looking Glass) so there is no argument to be made.
see you all later suckers living east of the Mississippi.
d
Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, battenBatten, Batten, batten,
batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten,
batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten,
batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten,
batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten,
batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
where are you when we all need you?
chris
rick wrote:
>
> Chris-
>
> So are any of the 10- grouping deserving of THAT grade? If so, then
> drop them all down. And with Orangeaid ask Tony Lorenzo and Pat Andrews
> what they thought of it climbing as my partners. Neither had trouble
> with it or frankly at the time thought it was hard.
Do you mean Patrick Andrews of Gettysburgh, PA and the Tony who worked
for Earth Treks(where I work now)? I don't know about Tony, but I know
for a fact that Pat thought it was pretty hard-he's a regular climbing
partner of mine. I'm sure he didn't struggle on it, but I don't think
he just walked it and called "5.8". Like I said before, it doesn't
really matter all that much anyways-It's a great route and who cares
about anything else?
Cheers, enjoy that westcoast rock!
-Chris-
Michael A. Riches
<cone...@nospam.worldnet.att.net> wrote:
> <snip>
> batten, Batten, batten Batten, Batten, batten, batten, Batten, batten
> where are you when we all need you?
Consensus seems to be that see-ins how Batten's your brother, you ought to
be the one to keep track of him...
--
The Rockrat
Dan Goodman
>
> Ken-
>
> I was at the base of a 5.7 route belaying a friend. Barnes strolls up
> with two clients. Starts saying "my belay has the lowest coefficient of
> friction, blah blah blah".
Curiosity killed the cat; satisfaction brought him back to
life. What device were you using?
Don't forget the guy who made the saddle, too.
Dan Goodman
Dan Goodman
>
> "Scott Grimes" <sgr...@inet.net> writes:
>
> > Ken-
> >
> > If you care to, please respond to the following:
> >
> > On numerous occasion while climbing at Seneca I seen guides under Mr.Barnes
> > tutelage/employment use very questionable belay/safe climbing techniques
> > while working with clients.
>
> My first comment is that this isn't a particularly good place to
> discuss the safety practices of a guide service that doesn't have
> representation here. If you have concerns, take them to to Tony or
> the AMGA.
Or why not call him at his number and invite him to come on
over and defend himself. If he is willing to speak out about
others who have not elected to employ him in public, he
should be willing to have his say over here.
Dan "I love the smell of napalm in the morning" Goodman
Dan Goodman
> Maybe the poor fellow who died last weekend could have used some timely
> intervention from Tony or someone else who is not afraid to point out
> dangerous practices.
Or maybe he saw one of the guides soloing up an "easy 5.5"
or a chimney?
WHOOOOSH! [ the sound of erupting flames? ]
Dan "should have been climbing, stayed home for my son's
birthday today, now won't get to see him till tomorrow night
= feeling feisty" Goodman
Dan Goodman
>
> Ken....@cs.cmu.edu wrote:
> >
> >
> > Guides don't fall on familiar 5.5's - it just isn't part of the
> > program.
>
> broken hold. There was a recent case where a guide
> died in the Tetons on something familiar and easy. I also seem to
> remember an article by a woman climber (Alison Osius maybe?)
> where she fell on an easy familiar route when a hold broke -- she
> wasn't soling though and her client caught her fall.
Didn't Warren Hollinger write that a hold broke on him on a
relatively easy, for him, section?
Nothing personal with the people who are on the other side
of this, but I've got to agree with this, and with rick
(yeah the same one I didn't agree with a couple of weeks
ago, which is prehistory on the net, sort of) on the idea of
fundamentals first and know lots of ways of doing things.
[ Now do I get to see a 1970 Conestoga, rick? :-) ]
Dan Goodman
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
Dan, that's not logic it is flame-baiting and explains one of the
primary reasons I would not advise a guide service to enter a debate
about their conduct in this forum. Looking at your responses to this
thread, I can tell it is pretty easy to piss you off, and frankly,
Tony doesn't stand to gain anything by engaging in a game of "when did
you stop beating your wife" with the likes of you.
Comprende?
Also, the questions raised were pretty mild in my book, and may or may
not be consistent with good guiding practice (I think they are, but
I'm happy to debate the point if you like). They involved employees,
not Tony, and so the issues really should be taken to the head of the
guide service who can explain the policy and/or take appropriate
action.
This may seem like innocent fun to you, but Tony takes his guide
service very seriously. He knows that he isn't likely to win the
respect of a loose cannon and has more to lose (in terms of public
relations) by fueling a flame war than he is likely to win in this
volatile arena. If you are truly interested in following up on this,
I recommend calling Tony or sending him email - let me know if you
want contact info and I'll look it up.
Ken