Jon Krakauer: An Epic Coward
Into Thin Air
read "Climb" to get the true picture of Jon Krakauer--what a coward.
I think he must be the biggest coward I've ever heard of. I did read
"Climb" too. If Anatoli Boukreev is telling the truth about Krakauer
faltering and being saved--that just makes Krakauer even more
deserving of his nightmares--Krakauer got saved by someone else, but
Krakauer couldn't lift a finger for anyone else. When he could have
helped Beck Weathers, he refused. According to Beck Weathers, who is
much more credible than the lying coward Jon Krakauer--according to
Beck Weathers, Krakauer refused to help. Krakauer tells it different,
but Krakauer is a proven liar. There is enough on record that if
Krakauer had made the statements he's made in "Into Thin Air" and in
other places under oath, he could easily be convicted as a perjurer.
After the way he behaved, after what he did and didn't do, after all
his lies, no wonder he can't sleep at night.
Paul W
Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote in message
news:31lgpsckb24m4pcbr...@4ax.com...
Let it go, man. You weren't there either.
PW
Into Thin Air
wrote:
Uh, I know I wasn't there. But I read Krakauer's own words on it.
I'm kind of shocked, to tell you the truth, having never seen or heard
of cowardice of this proportion. And besides his totally yellow
belly, he's also plainly a liar. I mean, you can see all that without
reading "The Climb". That he seeks to destroy the reputation of
others, that a man who acted as cowardly as a man could possibly
act--that he seeks to destroy the reputation of others says a lot
about what a bad character this guy is, which goes beyond ordinary
cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
Christian
Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote:
> which goes beyond ordinary
> cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
Would you demonstrate some of your own courage and use your real name so
that we may wish you well on your journey into thin air?
Christian
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Robert Williams
What a shame.
Rob
jeremy p
>Lame-ass attempt at a troll. And so much effort put into
it. . .
>
>What a shame.
>
>Rob
>
It's awfully hard to catch folks with at troll that most here
agree with (at least to a certain extent).
- Sumo
-----------------------------------------------------------
Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
Up to 100 minutes free!
http://www.keen.com
Brad Brandewie
> >Let it go, man. You weren't there either.
>
> Uh, I know I wasn't there. But I read Krakauer's own words on it.
> I'm kind of shocked, to tell you the truth, having never seen or heard
> of cowardice of this proportion. And besides his totally yellow
> belly, he's also plainly a liar. I mean, you can see all that without
> reading "The Climb". That he seeks to destroy the reputation of
> others, that a man who acted as cowardly as a man could possibly
> act--that he seeks to destroy the reputation of others says a lot
> cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
Is that the same type of coward that posts without using their real name or
is that a different kind of coward? I figured you could tell me since you
obviously know everything.
PS. Have you climbed an 8000 meter peak? I thought not.
Brad
A.MacNair
On a side note I just finished reading Krakauers "Eiger Dreams" and
there were some very good stories in there, especially Devils Thumb
(which was regurgitated in "Into the Wild"). I like his writing style.
I'm not going to judge the man personally.
"Into Thin Air" <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote in message
news:gjmgpsou1sgrkjslk...@4ax.com...
> >Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote in message
> >news:31lgpsckb24m4pcbr...@4ax.com...
Into Thin Air
<br...@the1vision.com> wrote:
>
>> >Let it go, man. You weren't there either.
>>
>> Uh, I know I wasn't there. But I read Krakauer's own words on it.
>> I'm kind of shocked, to tell you the truth, having never seen or heard
>> of cowardice of this proportion. And besides his totally yellow
>> belly, he's also plainly a liar. I mean, you can see all that without
>> reading "The Climb". That he seeks to destroy the reputation of
>> others, that a man who acted as cowardly as a man could possibly
>> act--that he seeks to destroy the reputation of others says a lot
>> about what a bad character this guy is, which goes beyond ordinary
>> cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
>
>Is that the same type of coward that posts without using their real name or
>is that a different kind of coward? I figured you could tell me since you
>obviously know everything.
Rather than addressing the issues, you've elected to address a
nonissue--which is not surprising. If you're a supporter of the
coward Jon Krakauer, you'd want to stay away from the issue of Jon
Krakauer's epic cowardice.
Like what would you do if you knew my real name?
That wouldn't change a thing about what Krakauer did and didn't do,
would it? If you knew my name, it wouldn't make Krakauer any less of
an epic coward, would it?
It wouldn't make Krakauer any less of a liar, would it?
And it wouldn't help Krakauer sleep any better at night, would it?
>PS. Have you climbed an 8000 meter peak? I thought not.
Lots of people have climbed 8000 meter peaks, but do you know any
example of cowardice among that group that surpass Krakauer's
cowardice?
Into Thin Air
wrote:
>Apparently this topic has been debated to death here.
>
>On a side note I just finished reading Krakauers "Eiger Dreams" and
>there were some very good stories in there, especially Devils Thumb
>(which was regurgitated in "Into the Wild"). I like his writing style.
>I'm not going to judge the man personally.
If you read "Into Thin Air", you can't help but judge him personally.
His cowardice is an affront to the sensibilities of anybody except
perhaps folks who are as cowardly as he is--and there aren't many who
can match him in that department.
Into Thin Air
<rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Lame-ass attempt at a troll. And so much effort put into it. . .
>
>What a shame.
It's not a troll, dude.
Into Thin Air
>In article <gjmgpsou1sgrkjslk...@4ax.com>,
> Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote:
>
>> which goes beyond ordinary
>> cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
>
>Would you demonstrate some of your own courage and use your real name so
>that we may wish you well on your journey into thin air?
>
>Christian
Uh, before you go whining about me not using my real name, maybe you
might think to use your real name. Otherwise, you're open to your own
complaint.
Whether I use my name or not, does that make Krakauer any less of an
amazing coward?
Can you tell me one thing Jon Krakauer did to help anybody?
Can you justify Jon Krakauer's slander of Anatoli Boukreev?
Can you tell me me how many people Boukreev saved?
Did Krakauer save anybody?
Did Krakauer even lift one finger to help anybody?
Is it any wonder to you why Krakauer can't sleep at night?
Brent Ware
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 14:01:17 -0700, Robert Williams
> <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
The heck with Krakauer and Everest. I want to rehash the 1986 K2
disaster. Those people were all experienced mountaineers, no guides
and no clients, and a bunch of them managed to die anyway.
How about Wiessner on K2 in 1938? Boy, did those guys screw up.
Or lets go back even further, to Whymper on the Matterhorn.
Plenty of room for armchair mountaineering without beating the 1996
Everest season dead horse once again.
-bw
"Climb if you will, but remember that courage and strength are nought
without prudence, and that a momentary negligence may destroy the
happiness of a lifetime. Do nothing in haste; look well to each step;
and from the beginning think what might be the end."
Edward Whymper
Scrambles Amongst the Alps
Mike Garrison
>
> I just read "Into Thin Air"
Trollin', trollin', trollin',
Though the bandwidth's swollen;
Keep them flames a rollin' --
Rawhide!
Into Thin Air
You wouldn't know a troll if it bit you in the ass.
Into Thin Air
<d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> writes:
>
>So tell us. W#hat situation of similar ugliness have you been in
>where you have shown yourself to be more valiant?
Have you ever been in one where you showed yourself more cowardly?
Brad Brandewie
Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote
> Rather than addressing the issues, you've elected to address a
> nonissue--which is not surprising. If you're a supporter of the
> coward Jon Krakauer, you'd want to stay away from the issue of Jon
> Krakauer's epic cowardice.
Actually I avoided the issue because everyone in this group (except you
aparently) has been through this subject matter numerous times before and
did so at a much higher level of intelect.
>
> Like what would you do if you knew my real name?
I would respect the fact that you stated your opinion and were willing to be
accountable. (even if I did not agree with your opinion)
>
> That wouldn't change a thing about what Krakauer did and didn't do,
> would it? If you knew my name, it wouldn't make Krakauer any less of
> an epic coward, would it?
You are missing the point.
>
> It wouldn't make Krakauer any less of a liar, would it?
You are still missing the point.
>
> And it wouldn't help Krakauer sleep any better at night, would it?
Repetition will not win a debate in a group of free thinkers such as
rec.climbing.
>
> >PS. Have you climbed an 8000 meter peak? I thought not.
>
> Lots of people have climbed 8000 meter peaks, but do you know any
> example of cowardice among that group that surpass Krakauer's
> cowardice?
I will take that as a NO. How about a 7000 meter peak? 6000? 5000? 4000? I
am guessing you made the cut at 4000. "Look ma, I climbed Long's peak. Now
let me tell you about expedition climbing on the highest mountain in the
world".
Have you ever seriously considered the fact that you have not been in that
type of situation and thus, you have no idea what you are talking about?
Brad
Scott Presho
Kaminski
states in his book, on his way down, he was hallucinating and didn't
recognize folks. I'm actually surprised he made it down at all. It was
the responsibility of the guides to get their clients down safely. Not
sure Krakauer had anything left to help anyone, and as you weren't there,
you can't say he did/didn't. By the way, how many 8000 meter summits
have you attempted/completed?
Into Thin Air
wrote:
>I agree with the others - you need to let this one go. As Krakauer
>states in his book, on his way down, he was hallucinating and didn't
>recognize folks. I'm actually surprised he made it down at all. It was
>the responsibility of the guides to get their clients down safely. Not
>sure Krakauer had anything left to help anyone, and as you weren't there,
>you can't say he did/didn't.
In his book, did you read where he said he did anything to help
anybody?
>By the way, how many 8000 meter summits
>have you attempted/completed?
Quoted from this address:
http://www.salon.com/wlust/feature/1998/08/cov_03feature4.html
:Krakauer says, "Why was Anatoli the only person to go back out?
:He may have been fearless. But he was also pretty goddamn motivated.
:He was having tea when a lot of people died.
:It wouldn't have looked too good."
Like I said earlier, you don't have to look any further than what
Krakauer himself says to see what a weasel he is. He can understand
the heroism of Boukreev only in totally self-serving terms. He
apparently cannot understand somebody doing something for someone else
unless there's something in it for the person doing it.
In this case, there was nothing at all in it for Krakauer, so he
stayed in his tent. Krakauer did not do one thing to help anyone, not
one thing.
His response to the actions of Boukreev are that the only reason
Boukreev did what he did is because his ass was on the line. Those
are the only terms in which a low life coward like Jon Krakauer can
understand such actions.
Mike Garrison
>
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:00:09 GMT, Mike Garrison
> <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> >>
> >> I just read "Into Thin Air"
> >
> >Though the bandwidth's swollen;
> >Keep them flames a rollin' --
> >Rawhide!
>
> You wouldn't know a troll if it bit you in the ass.
One has bit me in the ass, actually. Nasty brutish thing
that was living in a dark cellar in my castle. Pissed me off
to no end. I had to slay it.
-Mike
Dingus Milktoast
Into Thin Air wrote:
>
>
>
> Is it any wonder to you why Krakauer can't sleep at night?
When you personally confronted Krakauer with your
convictions, what was his response?
DMT
J Smith
to say, this thread has provided me with much entertainment tonight. I
vacillate between wondering why ANYBODY bothered to respond to this tripe,
to howling with laughter at the whole thing. Whoever you are "into thin
air" (you little weenie) thanks for a thoroughly entertaining and useless
bit of reading. Now go away, and leave us alone you twit.
Dingus Milktoast
David Kastrup wrote:
>
>
> You have struck out. Now let go of the ball. You are making yourself
> ridiculous.
Hey, baseball is a puritan sport. Go persecute elsewhere.
DMT
David Kastrup
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 21:23:05 GMT, "A.MacNair" <amac...@elyrium.com>
> wrote:
>
> >Apparently this topic has been debated to death here.
> >
> >On a side note I just finished reading Krakauers "Eiger Dreams" and
> >there were some very good stories in there, especially Devils Thumb
> >(which was regurgitated in "Into the Wild"). I like his writing style.
> >I'm not going to judge the man personally.
>
> If you read "Into Thin Air", you can't help but judge him personally.
> His cowardice is an affront to the sensibilities of anybody except
> perhaps folks who are as cowardly as he is--and there aren't many who
> can match him in that department.
So tell us. W#hat situation of similar ugliness have you been in
where you have shown yourself to be more valiant?
--
David Kastrup Phone: +49-234-32-25570
Email: d...@neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de Fax: +49-234-32-14209
Institut für Neuroinformatik, Universitätsstr. 150, 44780 Bochum, Germany
David Kastrup
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:00:09 GMT, Mike Garrison
> <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote:
>
> >Into Thin Air wrote:
> >>
> >> I just read "Into Thin Air"
> >
> >Trollin', trollin', trollin',
> >Though the bandwidth's swollen;
> >Keep them flames a rollin' --
> >Rawhide!
>
> You wouldn't know a troll if it bit you in the ass.
But I recognize an ass if it is trolling.
Kaminski
really read the book, then you would realize that he probably wasn't capable
of helping anyone at that point, and that he was lucky that he made it down
to camp. And again, I will ask the question - from what experience base are
you speaking from. Unless you have been in a similar situation, you cannot
predict how you would react. It is one thing to be an arm-chair critic and
another to actually be a doer. In terms of Anatoli going out, as a lead
guide, that was his responsibility - not Krakaeurs - and by the way, that is
what you sign up for the moment you take money from a client - their well
being is your responsibilty. Saying that Krakaeur is a weasel is a
rediculous statement as you don't know the man.
cj
even if Jon Krakauer is a coward, he had at least enough courage and
conviction to sign the book with his real name.
Christopher Jain
In article <31lgpsckb24m4pcbr...@4ax.com>, Into Thin Air
Bob Ternes
Into Thin Air
wrote:
>No, I didn't read anything where he said that he helped anyone.
You got that right.
>But if you
>really read the book, then you would realize that he probably wasn't capable
>of helping anyone at that point, and that he was lucky that he made it down
>to camp.
No, I didn't get that at all. Krakhauer seems to report that he was
in better shape than anybody except perhaps Boukreev.
>And again, I will ask the question - from what experience base are
>you speaking from. Unless you have been in a similar situation, you cannot
>predict how you would react.
Have I said one word about how I would react?
I've never pitched in a major league baseball game, never played in a
major league baseball game, but I know when somebody strikes out.
>It is one thing to be an arm-chair critic and
>another to actually be a doer. In terms of Anatoli going out, as a lead
>guide, that was his responsibility - not Krakaeurs - and by the way, that is
>what you sign up for the moment you take money from a client - their well
>being is your responsibilty. Saying that Krakaeur is a weasel is a
>rediculous statement as you don't know the man.
Above all else, Krakhauer is a weasel, and he knows he's a weasel. He
knows as well as you do that he didn't do one thing to help a single
person.
Into Thin Air
>One thing you'll have to concede to Jon Krakauer, Mr. "Into Thin Air,"--
>even if Jon Krakauer is a coward, he had at least enough courage and
>conviction to sign the book with his real name.
But he ain't got the guts to come out here in the open in public
forum, does he?
Into Thin Air
wrote:
Uh, I don't think I'm inclined to take orders from you, bud.
David Kastrup
> Have I said one word about how I would react?
>
> I've never pitched in a major league baseball game, never played in a
> major league baseball game, but I know when somebody strikes out.
You have struck out. Now let go of the ball. You are making yourself
ridiculous.
David Kastrup
He probably could not care less. As opposed to you. From you we
*know* you haven't got the guts to come out in an open forum without a
disguise.
Bob Ternes
#
#
#David Kastrup wrote:
#>
#>
#> You have struck out. Now let go of the ball. You are making yourself
#> ridiculous.
#
#Hey, baseball is a puritan sport. Go persecute elsewhere.
#
#DMT
Yeah, especially if that Crucibilian George F. Will serves as its main guest
intellectual entreviste.
Just joking. It's rare, if ever, that he lets his objectionable, and otherwise
overriding, politics bleed into our national pastime.
Bob 'nothing like a neopropism' Pitcher
race...@yahoo.com
Michael Riches
his first taste of the Usenet will be trying to stir the pot...gets kinda
boring after awhile, they'll move on...
The Rockrat...
> On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:00:09 GMT, Mike Garrison
> <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote:
>
>> Into Thin Air wrote:
>>>
>>> I just read "Into Thin Air"
>>
Lon Harter
"Mike Garrison" <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote in message
news:39986BE9...@boeing.com...
rick++
> But he ain't got the guts to come out here in the open in public
> forum, does he?
Jon's been around the lecture circuit.
So have half the other people from that fateful year.
The audience trolls them with questions (from both sides)
just like this poster.
Sent via Deja.com http://www.deja.com/
Before you buy.
Christian
>
> >In article <gjmgpsou1sgrkjslk...@4ax.com>,> >> which goes beyond ordinary
> >> cowardice, which goes beyond even Krakauer's epic cowardice.
> >
> >Would you demonstrate some of your own courage and use your real name
> >so
> >that we may wish you well on your journey into thin air?
> >
> >Christian
>
> Uh, before you go whining about me not using my real name, maybe you
> might think to use your real name. Otherwise, you're open to your own
> complaint.
That is my real name. I presume Into Thin Air is not yours.
>
> Whether I use my name or not, does that make Krakauer any less of an
> amazing coward?
It makes you a coward for not even being able to stand behind your own
accusations.
> Can you tell me one thing Jon Krakauer did to help anybody?
Sure, he left a draft of one of his first stories hanging around my
college (where he went too) and picking that up one day between widdling
away my work study time fixing old Primus stoves, I learned about the
Moose's Tooth. And then I learned about the Great Gorge, then Brad
Washburn, etc. etc.
Vanish!
Christian
Shilajit T Gangulee
: Like what would you do if you knew my real name?
Make fun of it, for starters. Goddamn rednecks.
-t
--
--------------------------
finger -l to find me
"i moost retairn to me jig nah." -Anne E. McDonald
Robert Williams
Rob "Yeehawwwww!!!"
Robert Williams
Rob
jeremy p wrote:
>
> Robert Williams <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
> >Lame-ass attempt at a troll. And so much effort put into
> it. . .
> >
> >What a shame.
> >
> >Rob
> >
>
> It's awfully hard to catch folks with at troll that most here
> agree with (at least to a certain extent).
>
> - Sumo
>
> -----------------------------------------------------------
>
> Got questions? Get answers over the phone at Keen.com.
> Up to 100 minutes free!
> http://www.keen.com
Junior
<rock...@earthlink.net> wrote:
>Mike...school just started and guess what??? Every low class puke that gets
>his first taste of the Usenet will be trying to stir the pot...gets kinda
>boring after awhile, they'll move on...
Or I might just hang around for good.
I might even start posting from my alt.net account. Imagine that, a
usenet newbie who's already got an alt.net account.
Something, ain't it?
Junior
rob
Into Thin Air wrote in message ...
>>Lots of people have climbed 8000 meter peaks, but do you know any
>example of cowardice among that group that surpass Krakauer's
>cowardice?
Nice troll, but it's been done before.
I've never done an 8000 metre peak, or anywhere near, but I've been caught
out in such a blizzard on a piddly little one that it was everything I could
do to save *myself*....I wouldn't have had the physical or mental resources
to save anyone else had it been required, full stop. There comes a time when
an individual just has nothing left to give, and that time is different for
everyone. It has no bearing on whether you're a coward or not. In fact,
from what I've seen during my forays into the hills, it's often those who
are big of mouth and quickest to criticise who are the first to fold when
the going gets tough.
Sure, lots of people have done 8,000 metre peaks, and a very significant
number of them have died in the attempt, too. Was Hall a "coward" for
sitting up there with his client's body when he should have just shoved his
ass into gear and got down to the col? Was the guide (forget which? Groom?)
who let Yasuko Namba become detached from his arm a "coward"?
Get real and get a life, you sad individual.
Rob
Junior
<d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> writes:
>
>> Have I said one word about how I would react?
>>
>> I've never pitched in a major league baseball game, never played in a
>> major league baseball game, but I know when somebody strikes out.
>
>You have struck out. Now let go of the ball. You are making yourself
>ridiculous.
The plain fact is that you don't have to have necessarily walked a
mile in somebody's shoes to be able to get a picture of what's going
on.
We could take this thing even further than the question about the
8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
Imagine if we allowed only judges who had committed the crimes in the
cases they hear to hear those cases. Like, unless you've been
involved in an armed robbery, you aren't qualified to pass judgment on
an armed robber.
Junior
Junior
<d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> writes:
>
>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 02:13:34 GMT, cjai...@yahoo.com (cj) wrote:
>>
>> >One thing you'll have to concede to Jon Krakauer, Mr. "Into Thin Air,"--
>> >even if Jon Krakauer is a coward, he had at least enough courage and
>> >conviction to sign the book with his real name.
>>
>> But he ain't got the guts to come out here in the open in public
>> forum, does he?
>
>He probably could not care less. As opposed to you.
Yeah, I think he's a yellow bellied coward and beyond that.
>From you we
>*know* you haven't got the guts to come out in an open forum without a
>disguise.
What would you do if you knew who I was? Threaten to beat me up?
I don't know who you are. Until you post your drivers license and
other identification somewhere, you can apply your accusations about
identity to yourself.
Junior
rob
Brent Ware wrote in message ...
>Or lets go back even further, to Whymper on the Matterhorn.
>
>Plenty of room for armchair mountaineering without beating the 1996
>Everest season dead horse once again.
>
And let's not forget that the incompetent asshole Whymper *fell off the
platform edge at Blackburn railway station*... not even a 5.1!!!
Rob
David Kastrup
> On 15 Aug 2000 07:49:55 +0200, David Kastrup
> <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>
> >Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> writes:
> >
> >> Have I said one word about how I would react?
> >>
> >> I've never pitched in a major league baseball game, never played in a
> >> major league baseball game, but I know when somebody strikes out.
> >
> >You have struck out. Now let go of the ball. You are making yourself
> >ridiculous.
>
> The plain fact is that you don't have to have necessarily walked a
> mile in somebody's shoes to be able to get a picture of what's going
> on.
As soccer fans will tell you. They know better than the players from
sitting just in front of the TV.
> We could take this thing even further than the question about the
> 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when
> people were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
Do you have an idea how hard it is to lift a finger above 8000m?
> Imagine if we allowed only judges who had committed the crimes in
> the cases they hear to hear those cases.
Imagine if we allowed judges that were too cowardly to sign their name
under their judgment. That judged by reading some book. That never
heard a single eye witness.
Brad Brandewie
> We could take this thing even further than the question about the
> 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
> were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
I have $100 that says EVERY regular poster in this NG would rather tie in
with Krakauer than your punk ass. Are you ever going to tell us how high you
have climbed?
Brad
celia...@my-deja.com
Wow, your sure are worked up about this. You
seem to have a real hangup about cowards. Makes
me wonder about what your own personal history in
the cowardice department.
Regarding Krakauer, I don't know about whether or
not he was a coward on Everest, but I think his
book is the most accurate honest account of what
happened up there by far. And so do most of the
people who were on Everest in 1996, including
most of the members of Boukreev's own team.
I have seen now seen slide shows by Klev
Schoening, Neal Beidleman, and Beck Weathers, and
each of them said, in response to questions from
the audience after the show, that Krakauer's book
was by far the most accurate and honest account
of the disaster. When Beck was asked about
rumored discrepancies between his account and
Krakauer's, he said he didn't think there were
any real differences in their accounts, and he
suggested people read what he wrote in his book
if they doubted this. He also credited Krakauer
with saving his life by finding him in his
collapsed tent on the morning of May 12 when
everyone else had abandoned him.
So go ahead and keep slandering Krakauer (while
hiding like a REAL coward behind the anonymity of
the web) if it makes you feel more manly or
something, but don't expect all of us to buy into
it.
Signed,
Cecelia O'neal
Mike Garrison
>
> That's got a nice ring to it! Very well done Mike....
> > Trollin', trollin', trollin',
> > Though the bandwidth's swollen;
> > Keep them flames a rollin' --
> > Rawhide!
Second verse:
All the things I'm missin':
A life, some friends, and kissin',
Are leadin' me to sacrifice my pride.
Post it here! Flame it there!
Post it here! Flame it there!
Post it here ... rawwwww hide!
brmiller
>Boukreev did what he did is because his ass was on the line. Those
>are the only terms in which a low life coward like Jon Krakauer can
>understand such actions.
You sound like the typical armchair quarterback. Your failure to
answer the question on how high you've actually climbed is a clear
indication of your type. In fact, you probably read about gym
climbing, somewhere, and are suddenly an expert on climbing!
I'm surprised that you aren't off blowing up abortion clinics,
somewhere! That's your type of crowd, isn't it?
D B FRAZ
Since you are too scared to sign your name, I'll call you jr. Let me give
you a piece of advice, you shouldn't respond to your own troll you look really
silly when you do.
David Frazier
D B FRAZ
>somewhere! That's your type of crowd, isn't it?
>
Hey what's wrong with blowing up abortion clinics? Don't lump jr. in with us,
he's way to much of a coward to blow up an abortion clinic, he won't even sign
his name.
David
kk153
Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote:
> I just read "Into Thin Air", and it really wasn't necessary at all to
> read "Climb" to get the true picture of Jon Krakauer--what a coward.
I just read through all of your posts (had some time to kill).
And while you made no good points, I did note that you used the word
coward or a derivative thereof 17 times.
Therefore, I will provide a short list of synonyms to keep your posts
from being so God damn repetitive:
1. chicken
2. poltroon
3. yellow belly
4. ignoble
5. craven
6. dastard
7. gutless
Please feel free to use these at will throughout your mindless drivel.
kk153
quack
A good list, but thesauruses are too approximate, a shotgun approach to
language. A poltroon, for example, is not just a coward, but "a
mean-spirited wretch" as well, a reasonable appellation for many
throwers of brickbats on newsgroups. And "ignoble" doesn't mean coward
at all, but instead refers to "plebeian, base, low, mean or despicable .
. ." Good words, in their place.
kk153 wrote:
a short list of synonyms
> 2. poltroon
David Kastrup
Actually, I doubt that if I were into blowing up abortion clinics, I
would sign my name.
Paul W
Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote in message
news:7hbhpss5d446jpo3p...@4ax.com...
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 02:13:34 GMT, cjai...@yahoo.com (cj) wrote:
>
> >One thing you'll have to concede to Jon Krakauer, Mr. "Into Thin Air,"--
> >even if Jon Krakauer is a coward, he had at least enough courage and
> >conviction to sign the book with his real name.
>
> forum, does he?
Thin air,
Like I said, but with an addendum...
Let it go. You weren't there.
Shut up and go get some climbing experience; perhaps then you will gain the
right to comment on the experience of others. If you have not stared deep
into the eyes of death and felt the terrifying grip of life slipping from
your own tremulous grasp, then you have no idea how you would confront it.
Again...let it go. Get some respect. Get some experience. Shut the fuck
up and climb.
PW
Junior
wrote:
I can't remember if it was Groom or not. There can be points where
you've got to consider yourself first. When I took Red Cross
lifeguard training, I thought they were going to tell us how to get
out there and save people. About 50% of the training is knowing when
not to go, about 25% of it is learning to put yourself at less risk
when you do go. The rest is divided between techniques of saving
somebody without putting yourself at risk and techniques when you do
put yourself at risk. After lifeguard training, learning how many
people drown when trying to save somebody, I always said I'd never try
it unless I could do it by a low risk technique.
With Krakauer, we're talking about an individual who wouldn't do it
when there was NO risk.
Junior
Junior
<rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>Agreed; good point Sumo.
Would you mind explaining Sumo's point in a plain sentence?
Junior
Junior
<br...@the1vision.com> wrote:
>
>> We could take this thing even further than the question about the
>> 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
>> were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
>
>I have $100 that says EVERY regular poster in this NG would rather tie in
>with Krakauer than your punk ass.
That would be fine, as long as you don't mind being left for dead.
Junior
Junior
wrote:
>>His response to the actions of Boukreev are that the only reason
>>Boukreev did what he did is because his ass was on the line. Those
>>are the only terms in which a low life coward like Jon Krakauer can
>>understand such actions.
>
>You sound like the typical armchair quarterback. Your failure to
>answer the question on how high you've actually climbed is a clear
>indication of your type. In fact, you probably read about gym
>climbing, somewhere, and are suddenly an expert on climbing!
I'm not an expert on climbing. I'm an Everest and K2 junkie, on and
off, off for the last few years--I never wanted to read the 96 stuff.
I finally got around to it, and, like I said, I was shocked by the
person of Jon Krakauer. I've never read anything like it.
>I'm surprised that you aren't off blowing up abortion clinics,
>somewhere! That's your type of crowd, isn't it?
You reveal that you have a closed mind.
Junior
Dingus Milktoast
Junior wrote:
>
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:03:43 -0700, Robert Williams
> <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>
> >Agreed; good point Sumo.
>
> Would you mind explaining Sumo's point in a plain sentence?
>
What I wanna know is what was Krakauer's reaction to your
allegations when you confronted him? Did he run away?
DMT
Michael Hanford
tact...I'll be giggling the rest of the day.
-Mike
Mike Garrison wrote:
> Into Thin Air wrote:
> >
> > I just read "Into Thin Air"
>
Dingus Milktoast
Junior wrote:
>
> >
> >What I wanna know is what was Krakauer's reaction to your
> >allegations when you confronted him? Did he run away?
>
> Krakauer probably wouldn't like that too much, would you think?
>
What I think is irrelevant. What I would like to know is
what was Krakauer's reaction to your allegations when you
confronted him. Please answer the question!
DMT
alistair bruce
>
> With Krakauer, we're talking about an individual who wouldn't do it
> when there was NO risk.
>
> Junior
oops, almost managed not to trip yourself up...... right up to that point!
from someone who feels at risk walking out the front door
alistair
(-:~
D B FRAZ
>With Krakauer, we're talking about an individual who wouldn't do it
>when there was NO risk.
>
>Junior
>
This is possibly the most ignorant comment that has ever been posted on this
newsgroup. You are saying that leaving shelter at high altitude under extreme
fatigue and whiteout conditions is without risk. You officially qualify for
Moron of the Year.
BTW, before you make some smart comment. I am a Firefighter and I risk my life
everyday to try and save other people. I don't see anything in Krakauer's
writings or your rantings that makes him a coward. He's not a hero, Anatoly
probably was. But to call someone a coward with your limited experience and
your third hand knowledge makes you at very best an ignorant, judgemental,
self-involved, foolish man or more likely a boy. Only the most ignorant people
make it over the age of 18 with attitudes like yours. Now you have a nice day.
David Frazier
Barb & EJ Werner
//ejw
Brad Brandewie wrote:
>
> > We could take this thing even further than the question about the
> > 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
> > were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
>
> I have $100 that says EVERY regular poster in this NG would rather tie in
Michael Riches
identify with anyway....Ohhh, (yawn...), did he mention he had an Alt.net
account...I wonder why mommy lets little jr. troll the Usenet....could be
that it's daddy's account??? They have several alt.sites configured for just
your type, but then you knew that didn't you??? Plonk, Plonk??? Into thin
air...real amusing indeed, who read the book to you??? And where did you
steal it from to begin with???
The Rockrat...
> In article <31lgpsckb24m4pcbr...@4ax.com>,
> Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote:
>> I just read "Into Thin Air", and it really wasn't necessary at all to
>> read "Climb" to get the true picture of Jon Krakauer--what a coward.
>
> I just read through all of your posts (had some time to kill).
> And while you made no good points, I did note that you used the word
> coward or a derivative thereof 17 times.
>
> Therefore, I will provide a short list of synonyms to keep your posts
> from being so God damn repetitive:
>
> 1. chicken
Douglas Barnes
Brad Brandewie wrote:
> Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> wrote
>
> > Rather than addressing the issues, you've elected to address a
> > nonissue--which is not surprising. If you're a supporter of the
> > coward Jon Krakauer, you'd want to stay away from the issue of Jon
> > Krakauer's epic cowardice.
>
> Actually I avoided the issue because everyone in this group (except you
> aparently) has been through this subject matter numerous times before and
> did so at a much higher level of intelect.
>
> >
> > Like what would you do if you knew my real name?
>
> I would respect the fact that you stated your opinion and were willing to be
> accountable. (even if I did not agree with your opinion)
>
> >
> > That wouldn't change a thing about what Krakauer did and didn't do,
> > would it? If you knew my name, it wouldn't make Krakauer any less of
> > an epic coward, would it?
>
> You are missing the point.
>
> >
> > It wouldn't make Krakauer any less of a liar, would it?
>
> You are still missing the point.
>
> >
> > And it wouldn't help Krakauer sleep any better at night, would it?
>
> Repetition will not win a debate in a group of free thinkers such as
> rec.climbing.
>
> >
> > >PS. Have you climbed an 8000 meter peak? I thought not.
> >
> > Lots of people have climbed 8000 meter peaks, but do you know any
> > example of cowardice among that group that surpass Krakauer's
> > cowardice?
>
> I will take that as a NO. How about a 7000 meter peak? 6000? 5000? 4000? I
> am guessing you made the cut at 4000. "Look ma, I climbed Long's peak. Now
> let me tell you about expedition climbing on the highest mountain in the
> world".
>
> Have you ever seriously considered the fact that you have not been in that
> type of situation and thus, you have no idea what you are talking about?
>
> Brad
Junior
<crha...@midtown.net> wrote:
>
>
>Junior wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 09:03:43 -0700, Robert Williams
>> <rbw...@netscape.net> wrote:
>>
>> >Agreed; good point Sumo.
>>
>> Would you mind explaining Sumo's point in a plain sentence?
>>
>
>What I wanna know is what was Krakauer's reaction to your
>allegations when you confronted him? Did he run away?
Krakauer probably wouldn't like that too much, would you think?
Reese
Junior
>Junior the knucklehead wrote:
>>With Krakauer, we're talking about an individual who wouldn't do it
>>when there was NO risk.
>>
>>Junior
>>
>
>This is possibly the most ignorant comment that has ever been posted on this
>newsgroup. You are saying that leaving shelter at high altitude under extreme
>fatigue and whiteout conditions is without risk. You officially qualify for
>Moron of the Year.
No, that's not what I said. So you're the Moron of the Year.
I wasn't talking about going out at night in the storm, nitwit. I was
talking about Beck Weathers.
>BTW, before you make some smart comment. I am a Firefighter and I risk my life
>everyday to try and save other people. I don't see anything in Krakauer's
>writings or your rantings that makes him a coward. He's not a hero,
That has got to be the understatement of the millennium.
Krakauer is less than a coward.
We have what Krakauer himself said on the subject.
>Anatoly
>probably was. But to call someone a coward with your limited experience and
>your third hand knowledge makes you at very best an ignorant, judgemental,
>self-involved, foolish man or more likely a boy.
Wow, you must be the flamer of the newsgroup, perhaps in more ways
than one.
D B FRAZ
that's ok we don't expect much from children. BTW, zzzzzizizzzz, that's the
sound of the drag going out on my spinning reel since you swallowed that one
hook, line and the proverbial sinker.
David
D B FRAZ
while your behind then maybe change names and start over. Come back when you
are old enough to drive.
David
cj
>
>> We could take this thing even further than the question about the
>> 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
>> were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
>
>I have $100 that says EVERY regular poster in this NG would rather tie in
>with Krakauer than your punk ass. Are you ever going to tell us how high you
>have climbed?
>
>
>Brad
>
That's what's so funny. If "Junior" bothered to do a deja search he'd notice
that Jon Krakauer has plenty of detracters on r.c. and not one is lifting a
finger to defend him. I don't think it's because they don't agree with him
but rather because he's such wus that nobody wants to be associated with him.
He comes across in his posts as a wanna-be poser who's probably never held an
ice-axe.
Christopher Jain
Jay Cooley
rec.climbing for weeks at a time. Perhaps if we all just ignored the little
bugger ( Into Thin Air/Junior he would just go away.
Jay
Michael Riches wrote:
> Mike...school just started and guess what??? Every low class puke that gets
> his first taste of the Usenet will be trying to stir the pot...gets kinda
> boring after awhile, they'll move on...
>
> The Rockrat...
>
> > On Mon, 14 Aug 2000 22:00:09 GMT, Mike Garrison
> > <mike.g...@boeing.com> wrote:
> >
> >> Into Thin Air wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I just read "Into Thin Air"
> >>
> >> Trollin', trollin', trollin',
> >> Though the bandwidth's swollen;
> >> Keep them flames a rollin' --
> >> Rawhide!
> >
> > You wouldn't know a troll if it bit you in the ass.
David Kastrup
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:17:41 -0600, "Brad Brandewie"
> <br...@the1vision.com> wrote:
>
> >
> >> We could take this thing even further than the question about the
> >> 8,000 meter peaks and ask, "Have you ever been on a climb when people
> >> were dying and you never so much as lifted a finger?"
> >
> >I have $100 that says EVERY regular poster in this NG would rather tie in
> >with Krakauer than your punk ass.
>
> That would be fine, as long as you don't mind being left for dead.
Couldn't happen to you. The horse you're still beating has been dead
for years.
David Kastrup
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 11:37:26 +0000, brmiller <topg...@pacbell.net>
> wrote:
>
> >>His response to the actions of Boukreev are that the only reason
> >>Boukreev did what he did is because his ass was on the line. Those
> >>are the only terms in which a low life coward like Jon Krakauer can
> >>understand such actions.
> >
> >You sound like the typical armchair quarterback. Your failure to
> >answer the question on how high you've actually climbed is a clear
> >indication of your type. In fact, you probably read about gym
> >climbing, somewhere, and are suddenly an expert on climbing!
>
> I'm not an expert on climbing. I'm an Everest and K2 junkie, on and
> off, off for the last few years--I never wanted to read the 96 stuff.
> I finally got around to it, and, like I said, I was shocked by the
> person of Jon Krakauer. I've never read anything like it.
Sounds like somebody reading Marvel comics for half his life and then
being disgusted by the protagonists in "Grapes of Wrath".
David Kastrup
> On 15 Aug 2000 07:51:57 +0200, David Kastrup
> <d...@mailhost.neuroinformatik.ruhr-uni-bochum.de> wrote:
>
> >Into Thin Air <Jun...@junoor.org> writes:
> >
> >> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 02:13:34 GMT, cjai...@yahoo.com (cj) wrote:
> >>
> >> >One thing you'll have to concede to Jon Krakauer, Mr. "Into Thin Air,"--
> >> >even if Jon Krakauer is a coward, he had at least enough courage and
> >> >conviction to sign the book with his real name.
> >>
> >> But he ain't got the guts to come out here in the open in public
> >> forum, does he?
> >
> >He probably could not care less. As opposed to you.
>
> Yeah, I think he's a yellow bellied coward and beyond that.
>
> >From you we
> >*know* you haven't got the guts to come out in an open forum without a
> >disguise.
>
> What would you do if you knew who I was? Threaten to beat me up?
Perhaps think you less of an idiot that is hiding behind his anonymity
in order not piss in his pants for fear of all the courageous things
he is shouting.
> I don't know who you are. Until you post your drivers license and
> other identification somewhere, you can apply your accusations about
> identity to yourself.
My signature below explains my connotations, my Email address is of a
research institute and contains my real name, too. My driver's license
number is D 2469581. I have no need to be afraid about what I am
writing.
But you again show how hypocritical you are. Not daring to reveal
your real name, you scoff at me for not having posted my driver's
license number before.
I really recommend that you judge others with the same standards as
yourself.
Ken....@cs.cmu.edu
> On Tue, 15 Aug 2000 06:23:20 GMT, Michael Riches
>
> Or I might just hang around for good.
That's the funniest thing I've read this month!
You'll give up soon. They all do.
Ken
John Holladay
Mkword
The problem with Junior's assertion is just that ... it's an assertion and he's
provided nothing to back it up. His conclusion comes from Krakauer's own book,
but are we to assume that Krakauer wrote his book as a complete self-indictment
of his actions? Doubtful.
Junior claims that Krakauer is a coward. Yet he never proves Krakauer's
cowardice or even provides specific examples or moments. He stayed in his
tent. Yes. He stayed in his tent when he was himself a victim of fatigue,
exposure and altitude. He stayed in his tent after going out several times to
look for others in his party.
It's an indication of Junior's incredible lack of reading comprehension and
his self-centered agenda that he could read that book and single in entirely on
Krakauer's actions and completely ignore the mistakes made by others.
It's also a clear failure of simple comphrension that a self-described "Everest
and K2 junkie" doesn't seem to understand that high mountains are unforgiving
and that tiny errors in judgment can quickly snowball into catastrophe.
Assessing blame is possible in some circumstances, but it is rarely a cut and
dried, black and white thing. There have been other instances of climber's
wrongfully accused of cowardice in the past simply because those who weren't
there were motivated to make quick, expedient, self-serving judgments.
If one is to take anything away from Krakauer's book or that tragedy, it is
that mountains are an unforgiving terrain and that even minor mistakes will
often result in tragic circumstances. The point taken further is that Everest
is not to be taken lightly and not capable of being turned into a tourist
destination.
"There is the intense and beautiful hope that Hollywood writers themselves will
recognize that writing for the screen is no job for amateurs and half-writers
whose problems are always solved by somebody else."
-Raymond Chandler
Steven Cherry
>I don't know who you are. Until you post your drivers license and
>other identification somewhere, you can apply your accusations about
>identity to yourself.
Not because I think this idiot is deserving of a reply, but the topic
of identity is an important one. It's especially important for us as
climbers because we place our lives, literally, in each others' hands.
There are a number of ways to begin to establish an identity, even a
pseudonymous one, here on rec.climbing. Here are some examples.
. Hi, I'm Fred, I climbed next to Geoff and Karl a few weeks ago at
Church Bowl. They told me about rec.climbing and here I am.
. I didn't see the accident, but I helped with the carry-out. She had at
least a broken right leg and a big gash on her right side, but she was
coherent and I guess she'll be okay. I heard they kept her overnight for
observation. By the way, when I packed up I found a draw with a cam on it.
Describe it and we'll figure out how I can get it back to you. (I also put
a note up at the EMS.)
. Hi, I've been climbing at that area at least 20x/year for the last 15
years. You don't need tricams at all. Here's what my lead rack has always
been...
. Hi, my name is Mary. I've been lurking for a few months. I've never
met anyone here. I've been out of climbing for a long time, but
Undercling might know me as one of Bev Johnson's partners back in the
day.
. My name is Joe Smith, I'm 34 years old, I've done the following
peaks...
. I'm Ralph, for anyone who's been to Rock and Snow in New Paltz, I'm the
short guy who works on Saturdays.
. My name is Jim Jones. I've only climbed once, in the Catskills, but
I work at St Martins Press as an editor. I copyedited Anatoli Boukreev's
book and had lunch with his coauthor twice...
. My name is Jack, I'm a systems engineer for Rockwell. I have a web page
at http://members.aol.com/xyxyxy which lists my professional interests and
also has some photos and route info for Devils Lake.
. My name is Chris, I heard that someone was asking about the American K2
expedition. Well, we just got back. Here's what it was like on summit
day...
-steven-
--
<ste...@panix.com>
=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
As stewards of information, we must not betray the facts, unless
it's a part of a really stellar troll and we can hook 'em faster
than we can reel 'em in. -- Bob Ternes, rec.climbing
Dingus Milktoast
Steven Cherry wrote:
>
> There are a number of ways to begin to establish an identity, even a
> pseudonymous one, here on rec.climbing. Here are some examples.
>
> . Hi, I'm Fred, I climbed next to Geoff <snip>
There is another way you forgot...
Hi, I am Dingus, hear me roar.
DMT
Galen Hekhuis
This could all be avoided if people would only use insignia and ID
cards. Posts could be submitted to the proper authorities and if the
merit badges indicated sufficient experience, the person would be
permitted to post. People attempting to post inappropriately could be
reduced in rank. Of course, generals would be exempt.
Galen Hekhuis, NpD, JFR, GWA ghek...@earthlink.net
We are the Cro-Magnon of the future
David Kastrup
> Steven Cherry wrote:
> >
> > There are a number of ways to begin to establish an identity, even a
> > pseudonymous one, here on rec.climbing. Here are some examples.
> >
> > . Hi, I'm Fred, I climbed next to Geoff <snip>
>
> There is another way you forgot...
>
> Hi, I am Dingus, hear me roar.
Hi, I am David. I have read books about how to climb at the highest
level. I could go up Mt. Everest or K2 if my fingernails weren't as
brittle (pity that). But I know everything about anything, anyhow. I
can tell the long dimension of a straight rope from the short ones
without looking, by mere touch and feel.
I have a greater sense of humour than most because almost nobody else
succeeds with laughing about my jokes.
Group, meet David. Shake hands. Ouch. Not that wild. No, that
isn't his hand, it's his neck. His hands are down there. Now look
what you have done. You dented a fingernail. He'll have to call off
his expedition again.
Dingus Milktoast
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
>
> This could all be avoided if people would only use insignia and ID
> cards. Posts could be submitted to the proper authorities and if the
> merit badges indicated sufficient experience, the person would be
> permitted to post. People attempting to post inappropriately could be
> reduced in rank. Of course, generals would be exempt.
>
I'd use a fake badge, so splbltbltbltblt! (I'm sticking my
tongue out at you too)
DMT
Grant
>
> This could all be avoided if people would only use insignia and ID
> cards.
Man, you are really fixated on this "merit badge" idea. I know most of it
is in jest, but I think there is an undertone of seriousness that frankly
frightens me.
G- Keep climbing free & unfettered!
Galen Hekhuis
>I'd use a fake badge, so splbltbltbltblt! (I'm sticking my
>tongue out at you too)
Badges? We don' need no steeenkin' badges. At least if you climb in
Sierra Madre. Otherwise you'd better be a federale.
Galen Hekhuis
>Galen Hekhuis wrote:
>
>>
>> This could all be avoided if people would only use insignia and ID
>> cards.
>
>Man, you are really fixated on this "merit badge" idea. I know most of it
>is in jest, but I think there is an undertone of seriousness that frankly
>frightens me.
The idea is pretty scary. But the Forest Service or the Park Service
or someone is gonna look for some kind of "certification." It won't
be long before liability, if nothing else, forces them to do this.
The military insignia and merit badge stuff will probably not make it
(thank whatever) but I'll bet something like the ID card winds up
being required. I used to fly hang gliders and many launch sites got
kind of like that -- no certification, no launch. I think diving is
kinda like that now, either you have some kind of certification from
one of two groups or you can't get air. You can bet your sweet bippy
I'm gonna keep mentioning it from time to time. It's good to think
about it now and then, otherwise you get stuff like "demo" programs.
Think a bunch of climbers came up with that?
Dingus Milktoast
Galen Hekhuis wrote:
>but I'll bet something like the ID card winds up
> being required. I used to fly hang gliders and many launch sites got
> kind of like that
You may be right Galen.
I think the only case for climbing certification to be made
on public land is proof of rescue insurance. Unless and
until we climbers stop living off the public rescue dole, we
will be at the mercy of popular whim on the matter. The only
justification for competency certifications is to limit or
reduce the impact incompetent or unfortunate climbers have
on public coffers. When we pay our own way, arguments to
test for competency fade into meaningless blather. So if
competency tests ever do become the law of the land, we have
only ourselves to blame.
Should a certification demo program be initiated, we must
fight it. We have to refuse to register. But of course,
there are too many "good little citizen soldiers" who will
fall lock step into whatever their commissars tell them to
do for this type of revolt to ever truly work here again.
Just look at all the people who have been fooled into
participating in the Fee Demo program. We're too soft and
comfy to really risk our lard asses in the name of freedom.
The revolution will have to move to another arena, maybe
another country.
Damn, sometimes I'm just too cheerful.
DMT
Geoff Jennings
a ID badge of sorts. Of course, it says nothing about ability and only says
you paid your $$$....but those are both on non-government land.
The SCUBA example is an interesting one. Technically, you don't have to have a
C-card to dive. Most Resorts/dive boats will require it, most places require
one to fill your tank, and most shops require it buy certain equipment (you can
buy a snorkel without, but you have to have it to buy a tank or regulator).
Interestingly enough, none of the government controlled marine areas require
it, thought the boat operators do. AFAIK, and I'm pretty well versed in SCUBA
stuff, this is an entirelly voluntary program, with boat operators, store
operators and equipment manufactures participating in a self policing method.
I'm not advocating it, but a closer parralel to the scuba rules would be if no
one could by a harness/rope/biners or pro without a card.
Geoff
John Holladay
In SCUBA it is mostly private organizations with some government
involvement in some places (note among other cards I have a LA County
Dive card). And I don't think my LA card would be understood by many
non US dive shops.
Note, Reimers Ranch gives you a silly button to show that you signed
the waver or that you borrowed/stole the button from some one who once
did sign a waver.
Good start on the comparison, but.
JNH
Geoff Jennings
Did you read my post? I was never advocating the use of c-cards in climbing, I
was merely pointing out that SCUBA c-cards were non-governmental (Here I was
refering to NAUI, PADI, SSI etc, not LA county cards)
>And what certifying agency would issue such cards?
Hm..obviously one doesn't exist, although I'd imagine it would end up being an
extension of maybe the AMGA guide certifications, or something similar. Or it
could evolve if all the gyms in the country got organized and came up with a
national standard testing, that then you could take from gym to gym with you...
In the early days of diving, c-cards didn't exist, and evolved out of the
communities desire to self police.
> And I don't think my LA card would be understood by many
>non US dive shops.
What purpose does it serve? My Padi Divemaster card has got me onto every boat
I've tried in LA.
>Good start on the comparison, but.
but what? Everything I said was accurate. C-cards are not required for
diving by government entities (marine parks) but by the operators and dive
shops...That was my only point.
And, just to be abundantly clear, I'm not advocating a similar program for
climbing, I'm merely pointing out how it works in diving, it's VOLUNTARY, and
enforced only by dive shops,instructors, manufactures, and dive boats. These
entities choose to maintain a set of standards for their own good, and to
prevent liability. I don't advocate it, but I don't find it inconcievable that
climbing gear shops, guides, and manufactures COULD decide to do a similar
thing.
Geoff
>
>JNH
a random guy
> I just read "Into Thin Air", and it really wasn't necessary at all to
> read "Climb" to get the true picture of Jon Krakauer--what a coward.
> I think he must be the biggest coward I've ever heard of. I did read
> "Climb" too. If Anatoli Boukreev is telling the truth about Krakauer
> faltering and being saved--that just makes Krakauer even more
> deserving of his nightmares--Krakauer got saved by someone else, but
> Krakauer couldn't lift a finger for anyone else. When he could have
> helped Beck Weathers, he refused. According to Beck Weathers, who is
> much more credible than the lying coward Jon Krakauer--according to
> Beck Weathers, Krakauer refused to help. Krakauer tells it different,
> but Krakauer is a proven liar. There is enough on record that if
> Krakauer had made the statements he's made in "Into Thin Air" and in
> other places under oath, he could easily be convicted as a perjurer.
>
> After the way he behaved, after what he did and didn't do, after all
> his lies, no wonder he can't sleep at night.
Krakauer may be a selfish, callous egotistical prick, but I do not blame him for the deaths of anyone on Everest that night. He may have turned down Beck Weathers request for help but Krakauer was out of oxygen after almost a full day climbing in the death zone and as far as he knew there was a guide with vastly more skill and tools that would be infinitely more helpful than himself in that situation was not far behind hind. If he had tried to help beck its entirely possible they both could have taken a wrong turn or dragged each other 3 vertical miles into Tibet or Nepal. The same goes for him sleeping through the storm. The fact that Boukreev was able to go back out into that mess despite just finishing a climb is nothing short of superhuman and by all rights Fox, Pittman, and quite likely Madsen should have died that night. Krakauer's real criticism should be how he blames the expedition on the people least deserving of the whole fiasco, Boukreev, Lopsong, and Pittman, while glossing over the true causes that lead to the deaths: the decisions made by his self proclaimed good friends Rob Hall and Scott Fisher.
Cicero_Venatio
>
> Krakauer may be a selfish, callous egotistical prick
I would like to see an old fashion pistol duel between Krakauer and
Pittman. Put it on pay per view.
Iuxtae sed iustim
active...@gmail.com
> I agree with the others - you need to let this one go. As Krakauer
> states in his book, on his way down, he was hallucinating and didn't
> recognize folks. I'm actually surprised he made it down at all. It was
> the responsibility of the guides to get their clients down safely. Not
> sure Krakauer had anything left to help anyone, and as you weren't there,
> you can't say he did/didn't. By the way, how many 8000 meter summits
> have you attempted/completed?
> Into Thin Air wrote:
>
> > I just read "Into Thin Air", and it really wasn't necessary at all to
> > read "Climb" to get the true picture of Jon Krakauer--what a coward.
> > I think he must be the biggest coward I've ever heard of. I did read
> > "Climb" too. If Anatoli Boukreev is telling the truth about Krakauer
> > faltering and being saved--that just makes Krakauer even more
> > deserving of his nightmares--Krakauer got saved by someone else, but
> > Krakauer couldn't lift a finger for anyone else. When he could have
> > helped Beck Weathers, he refused. According to Beck Weathers, who is
> > much more credible than the lying coward Jon Krakauer--according to
> > Beck Weathers, Krakauer refused to help. Krakauer tells it different,
> > but Krakauer is a proven liar. There is enough on record that if
> > Krakauer had made the statements he's made in "Into Thin Air" and in
> > other places under oath, he could easily be convicted as a perjurer.
> >
> > After the way he behaved, after what he did and didn't do, after all
> > his lies, no wonder he can't sleep at night.
David Ryeburn
...(snip)...
And you waited almost 15 years to bring this up because ... ?
Perhaps Google Groups has a very long delay line. I wonder how many dB
attenuation there would be in a delay line of such length? Radio
amateurs who hike and climb want to know.
David
--
David Ryeburn
david_...@telus.netz
To send e-mail, change "netz" to "net"
