Changes to "Book of Changes"
tom donnelly
should take up fortune telling.
On the upper half, there used to be fairly tricky pro.
The climbing is great but the crack was not much for pro.
Now this whole section is sport bolted.
Five closely spaced bolts !!
It ain't what is used to be.
Now I think Dangling Woo Li Master is harder, since it's more
pumpy to place your own pro.
Apparently the bighorn have learned safer practices.
Nate B
"tom donnelly"
> The climbing is great but the crack was not much for pro.
I remember some spice, but still a bomber nut protecting the meat of it.
The start is interesting too, but still a boulder problem so no need for
pro. I don't think the climb even got an R rating.
> Now this whole section is sport bolted.
> Five closely spaced bolts !!
Yeah, like those will last the winter...
- Nate
Andy Gale
tom donnelly wrote:
> Whoever named this route at the Bighorn Mating Grotto in JTree
> should take up fortune telling.
> On the upper half, there used to be fairly tricky pro.
> The climbing is great but the crack was not much for pro.
> Now this whole section is sport bolted.
> Five closely spaced bolts !!
Damn! What's up with that? I do remember watching Brent spend some
time placing nuts that he wasn't thrilled with, but it protected. 5
bolts is unreal.
Andy
Bill Folk
Well, they've lasted a while already. They were in place when I did the
route last fall. Did seem like overkill.
I tossed the rope over a horn to protect the direct start.
Bill
Sue
<ag...@scripps.edu> wrote:
Whats up with the sport bolting in the wonderland anyway? Last
saturday Craig and I noticed a new bolt on the "cougar boulder" . I'm
not sure if that is its real name but its the rock that looks like cat
snarling with an open mouth. Really cool rock, now sports a bolt just
above its right "eye" . Since the eye is a hole which could be slung
seems unnecessary. Plus do we really need to climb every damn rock in
the Park?
Madbolter
> Whats up with the sport bolting in the wonderland anyway? Last
> saturday Craig and I noticed a new bolt on the "cougar boulder" . I'm
> not sure if that is its real name but its the rock that looks like cat
> snarling with an open mouth. Really cool rock, now sports a bolt just
> above its right "eye" . Since the eye is a hole which could be slung
> seems unnecessary. Plus do we really need to climb every damn rock in
> the Park?
>
That route was bolted at least a year ago, maybe 2. There is a photo
spread of an ascent of it online somewhere...I noticed the bolt before
I saw the page.
I always called it the "Yawning Hippo." The thing is cool looking,
sure, but it's only like 20' tall for Pete's sake and highly visible
from the trail. That's also off limits to bolting, so the bolt
really was placed illegally...what's new?
The addition of those bolt in the BHMG are a real shame. Wish we
knew the perps...
Chop n' Fill is the only way to stop the drill...bustin'
some kneecaps works too.
-Rex Pieper
Nate B
"Madbolter"
> Chop n' Fill is the only way to stop the drill...bustin'
> some kneecaps works too.
Dude - pick a side.
- Nate
Dingus Milktoast
"Nate B" <na...@nospam.com> wrote
>
> Dude - pick a side.
Yeah dude, pick a side...
Join the Milktoast Nation!
DMT
Madbolter
Ever hear of irony? The Mad part of my nick comes from bolting
from hooks, runout, ~crazy shit...not indiscrimate and prolific
bolting. I've placed (and replaced) a ton, but most of those
have been by hand. Makes you think twice about that bolt if
it goes in with 20 minutes of your own labor.
I don't oppose bolts. I don't even have a thing against
rap bolting -- done it myself, at sport climbing distances
I have.
But I still believe in respecting the local style/ethics/history
when it comes to bolting. These on "BoC" go against local ethics
of not bolting protectable cracks but worse, are illegally
placed in NPS Wilderness during a moratorium (which is great for
land manager relations) AND they're retrobolts.
Retrobolting is for pussies.
Figure out which side I'm on yet, genius?
-Rex Pieper
rick
Madbolter wrote:
>Makes you think twice about that bolt if
>it goes in with 20 minutes of your own labor.
yup.
drills kill plain and simple.
but in the words of Scott Ayres defending his tactics
"I am creating amusement parks for climbers"
no Scott, you are drilling the shit out of anything
20 minutes or closer to the road.
So why didn't Ayres fall onto the Hallucinogen
d
Nate B
"Madbolter"
> Figure out which side I'm on yet, genius?
You can't say rap bolting is for pussies, then talk about how you've rap
bolted without having others question your ego. You seem to take the best
image of both sides, not quite satisfied with a solid stance on one or the
other.
I'm happy to hear that you generally follow the rules of others - but in the
end, both you and the illegal rap bolter are sticking metal in the rock.
The least you could do is own that commonality, IMO.
- Nate
Dingus Milktoast
Lg
> Madbolter wrote:
>
> >Makes you think twice about that bolt if
> >it goes in with 20 minutes of your own labor.
>
> yup.
>
> drills kill plain and simple.
Well yea, just don't drop the thing on anybody and you're fine. I even
took the lanyard off my hand drill because it gets in my way so even
that is something you don't want to drop.
>
> but in the words of Scott Ayres defending his tactics
> "I am creating amusement parks for climbers"
Yea! I've been on some of his rides and as Tony says, "They'RE
GRREAT!!"
>
> no Scott, you are drilling the shit out of anything
> 20 minutes or closer to the road.
You think he or anyone cares about your lunatic ranting?
>
> So why didn't Ayres fall onto the Hallucinogen
>
>
> d
I think you've fallen once too many.
Lg
Lg
Even ground up with the FA's permission? Or what about if the first
ascentionist goes back and adds because they got feedback and felt it
was warranted? I think you mean if retro. is done without consent then
those that do or cowardly. But if they are deceased is it okay?
Lg
rick
Lg wrote:
>I think you've fallen once too many.
in the immortal words of rambo
"Murdock, Murdock, I am coming to get you.
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Madbolter
> "Madbolter"
>
>
>>Figure out which side I'm on yet, genius?
>>
>
> You can't say rap bolting is for pussies, then talk about how you've rap
> bolted without having others question your ego. You seem to take the best
> image of both sides, not quite satisfied with a solid stance on one or the
> other.
Geez Nate, I am surprised at your lack of reading skills.
I said retrobolting, not rap bolting is for pussies. I have no problem
with the method of bolt placement as long as they are quality bolts,
placed well. But adding bolts to a line years after the FA, when it is
fully protectable with traditional gear AND in a wilderness area of
Josh which has been under a bolting ban since 1993 is *indefensible* no
matter which side of the ground up, top down, sport vs trad vs gymbie
camp you're on. Ego has nothing to do with it. Getting climbing banned
from Josh, OTOH, has everything to do with it.
>
> I'm happy to hear that you generally follow the rules of others - but in the
> end, both you and the illegal rap bolter are sticking metal in the rock.
> The least you could do is own that commonality, IMO.
Your analogy is like comparing the hunter who has a license, during
open season taking only his legal limit versus a poacher, off season,
taking three times the normally legal limit and shooting a few
family pets just for the hell of it because he likes to kill things.
One is an upstanding member of society. The other, a criminal.
Yes, I place bolts, but those I place are legally placed (managed if
you will) and in keeping with long time valued traditions (such as
not adding bolts to routes done w/out them). I will also attach my
name to my work, not anonymously hiding my impact in the shadows.
The wilderness retrobolter and I are vastly different creatures.
-Rex Pieper
Nate B
"Madbolter"
> I said retrobolting, not rap bolting is for pussies.
Sorry - does this have something to do with pinkpoint? It's all so much at
times.
> Your analogy is like comparing the hunter who has a license, during
> open season taking only his legal limit versus a poacher
That's an interesting analogy - except I'm not sure I agree with the premis.
Where does this license to bolt come from?
> taking three times the normally legal limit
What is the normal limit? Does someone have a right to spend their entire
climbing career placing 100's of new bolts? My view is that the last 40
years of climbers have taken more than their share.
> The wilderness retrobolter and I are vastly different creatures.
I'm rattling your cage, as I hope you've figured. I'm glad there are people
out there who know the rules, ethics, etc. when they place bolts. I knew
where you stood long before this thread. However, the contrast of someone
who talks a lot about bolting, bashing someone else's bolts, struck me as a
little odd. Just me, though, I'm sure.
- Nate
MarkW
"Madbolter" <r...@REMOVETHISbigwall.com> wrote in message
> Chop n' Fill is the only way to stop the drill...bustin'
> some kneecaps works too.
How about talking to the offenders first, perhaps bustin' their kneecaps as
well. A little dialogue before action might shorten the bolt-war.
MarkW
Madbolter
Tell me how to talk to someone who hides in the shadows
and does this shit clandestinely.
Bolt wars suck, yes. But ultimately, the bolter will lose
the economics of the conflict vs the chopper.
Sadly, the rock is the innocent victim of all this hubris.
-Rex Pieper
Madbolter
Nate B wrote:
> "Madbolter"
>>I said retrobolting, not rap bolting is for pussies.
>>
> Sorry - does this have something to do with pinkpoint? It's all so much at
> times.
Ha...don't do the whine if you can't spend the time.
>
>>Your analogy is like comparing the hunter who has a license, during
>>open season taking only his legal limit versus a poacher
>>
>
> That's an interesting analogy - except I'm not sure I agree with the premis.
> Where does this license to bolt come from?
>
You mean the Constitution doesn't guarantee Life, Liberty and the
Placing of 3/8" fatties?
Dude, it's an analogy of working within the law/rules vs not. Don't
try to read everything into it.
>>taking three times the normally legal limit
>>
>
> What is the normal limit?
See above.
> Does someone have a right to spend their entire
> climbing career placing 100's of new bolts? My view is that the last 40
> years of climbers have taken more than their share.
>
So you only climb bolted routes 40 years old and older, right?
NO? Then pipe down ya fuckin' hypocrite.
>>The wilderness retrobolter and I are vastly different creatures.
>>
>
> I'm rattling your cage, as I hope you've figured. I'm glad there are people
> out there who know the rules, ethics, etc. when they place bolts. I knew
> where you stood long before this thread.
I know you're trolling me but I enjoy debating now and then. Otherwise
this place gets oh so dull.
>However, the contrast of someone
> who talks a lot about bolting, bashing someone else's bolts, struck
me as a
> little odd. Just me, though, I'm sure.
Irony is my middle name.
-Rex Pieper
Nate B
"Madbolter"
> Dude, it's an analogy of working within the law/rules vs not. Don't
> try to read everything into it.
I'm simply providing an interpretation to your own analogy.
> So you only climb bolted routes 40 years old and older, right?
> NO? Then pipe down ya fuckin' hypocrite.
? Let's take 40 years as the approximate age of mainstream climbing. How
many bolts are out there, and what percentage of the landscape is available
for the future - perhaps 100 years from now? Not much, IMO. Hypocrite?
Maybe if I was a sport climber or called myself some sort of developer. I
haven't climbed a sport protected route in over 2 years, and I've set belay
anchors on only a handful climbs over the past 6.
- Nate
rick
Nate B wrote:
>How many bolts are out there, and what percentage of the landscape is
available
>for the future - perhaps 100 years from now? Not much, IMO.
In 1995 I did a survey of routes on Mt Lemmon based on Steiger's 1985
guide and that of Rhicard in 1989. Of the routes put up prehistory to
1985, there were 2x that number stuffed in in the next 4 years. An
overwhelming majority were bolted sport routes by 4 activists. This
can only be attributed to the ease at which drilling became with the
advent of the electric drill. It is unfortunate that an established route,
repeated by many had any bolts period added to it.
nate and rex you guys are basically on the same team.
d
who did BoC in 5/94
MarkW
"Madbolter" <r...@REMOVETHISbigwall.com> wrote in message
> Tell me how to talk to someone who hides in the shadows
> and does this shit clandestinely.
Good point. Have you met any of these idiots? I never have (knowingly) but
still can't imagine someone with a hard-on for retro-bolting a line so far
from the road (as JT standards go anyway). That, and the fact that they are
probably going to climb it that one time or perhaps one other time. I
dunno, someone's making a statement maybe? What that statement is, I have
no idea.
> Bolt wars suck, yes. But ultimately, the bolter will lose
> the economics of the conflict vs the chopper.
Hopefully sooner rather than later...
> Sadly, the rock is the innocent victim of all this hubris.
Yup, can't we all just get along? I guess not, pry away!
MarkW
Madbolter
>
> Nate B wrote:
>
>
>>How many bolts are out there, and what percentage of the landscape is
>> available for the future - perhaps 100 years from now? Not much, IMO.
>>
Whoever said humans were good at saving things undone so
that others could do them later? We explore, we conquer, we
civilize. If your argument is that we should save things for
the future to do, realize that if we did such a thing, they'd never
be able to actually do it because they're being saved for
the future...
Tomorrow never comes, eh?
>
> In 1995 I did a survey of routes on Mt Lemmon based on Steiger's 1985
> guide and that of Rhicard in 1989. Of the routes put up prehistory to
> 1985, there were 2x that number stuffed in in the next 4 years. An
> overwhelming majority were bolted sport routes by 4 activists. This
> can only be attributed to the ease at which drilling became with the
> advent of the electric drill. It is unfortunate that an established route,
> repeated by many had any bolts period added to it.
Yep...same story everywhere. Only a handful of people do the majority
of the bolting. It's always been so. Hopefully they're putting up good
stuff, not crap. If they are bolting crap, shame them into improving
their act or chop them under.
>
> nate and rex you guys are basically on the same team.
So? When did such trivialities such as that ever stop r.c. before?
-Rex Pieper