Report: Fatal Accident at Ragged Mountain CT
Lanier Benkard
There was a fatal accident last night at the "Small Cliff" at Ragged
Mountain in Connecticut. Following is an account of what I believe
happenned. Keep in mind that I did not witness the accident itself
and I did not know the climbers involved. I was, however, the first
person to arrive on the scene so I can explain the scene with pretty
good detail and from a climber's perspective.
At approximately 7:10pm myself and my climbing partner were walking
down the Brierly's driveway (standard approach to Ragged) on our way
back to our car when we came accross the belayer (whose name was
John), who was visibly disturbed. We quized him and found that 1) an
accident had occurred, 2) the leader had fallen a good distance (40
ft.) from near the top of the cliff after running it out 3) he was
alone at the base of the right end of the cliff unconscious but
breathing and 4) the two of them were new to Ragged so that John at
least did not seem to know his way around too well. John had just
phoned the police from someone's house (not the Brierly's though they
were home and their house is much closer to Small Cliff) and was
waiting to lead them up. We knew that the situation demanded our help
so we grabbed a blanket from my car and sprinted to the Small Cliff.
My partner stayed on the driveway at the shortest trailhead to the
Small Cliff to show the rescue workers where to go and I ran to the
victim.
When I arrived, the victim (I believe his name was Paul) was face down
at the base of the cliff. As near as I can tell he had been leading a
route called Valhalla (5.7) and had run it out to somewhere near the
top of the cliff (50 ft. in this area) before falling. Valhalla goes
up about 15ft. to a large sloping ledge then goes over a small
overhang to a face with a thin crack to the top. He had very few
pieces in (either three or four) and the highest one was about half
way up in the overhang. The rope was still attached to his harness
when I arrived and there was nothing attached to it between the leader
and the last piece of pro so no pieces pulled. In addition, there was
no pro in the crack above the last piece so it wasn't a case of a
'biner failing either. (I've heard the upper crack is slightly
difficult to protect and may take only RP's.) I'm not sure whether
the leader fell and was initially stopped short of the ground (in
which case he would have hit the large ledge) and then lowered, or
whether he grounded out, but his knot was disturbingly easy to untie,
suggesting that the rope had not held a great deal of force.
Out of respect for the victim I will sum this up quickly. It was
obvious that the victim had sustained massive blows to the head. The
victim had a weak pulse when I got there, but by the time the rescue
workers arrived at the base of the cliff (probably 5-10 minutes later)
he did not. They performed CPR and evacuated him by ambulance and
then helicopter (It landed on the dam).
LESSONS:
1) WEAR A HELMET!!! Whatever led to this accident, my completely
uneducated opinion is that he would have lived if he had been wearing
a helmet. Certainly his head wounds would have been much less.
(Don't argue with me here. I SAW them.)
2) Know the rock you are climbing on. My understanding is that these
guys had not done much climbing (if any) at Ragged. Leading on
Traprock is VERY serious business. There is no fixed pro here and
many of the routes demand subtle protection. A G protection rating
may be conditional on your knowing or finding the one place where a
particular brand and size of micro-nut fits. If you don't own that
brand and size, it's R for you. In addition, the rock is soft and
very fractured giving it the tendency to break when you least expect
it. This may cause you to fall on easy terrain and cause your "bomber"
protection to fail -- earlier that evening my partner, who climbs easy
5.11, fell on a 5.8 section because the foothold she was standing on
crumbled. I don't know whether this guy was very experienced and
simply ran it out because he felt comfortable, or whether he was
inexperienced and ran out the upper face because he didn't know how to
protect it and was in over his head. I know that I am a pretty
experienced Traprock climber and I would never have put myself in that
position even though I would never fall on 5.7. I'm not sure I've
ever backed off a gunks route due to fear, but I've backed off many a
Traprock route, as has almost everyone I know who climbs here.
Climb Safe!!!
Lanier
Brutus of Wyde
> lan...@econ.yale.edu (Lanier Benkard) wrote:
[snip of sobering description of fatal accident on a 5.7 pitch at the
"Small Cliff" at Ragged Mountain in Connecticut]
> The victim had a weak pulse when I got there, but by the time the rescue
> workers arrived at the base of the cliff (probably 5-10 minutes later)
> he did not. They performed CPR and evacuated him by ambulance and
> then helicopter (It landed on the dam).
>
> LESSONS:
> 1) WEAR A HELMET!!! [snip]
> 2) Know the rock you are climbing on. [snip]
Good lessons.
[sadly]
I would add one more:
3) Know CPR. It may someday save a life.
Brutus of Wyde
Oakland, California
Lanier Benkard
Brutus of Wyde (bbin...@ebmud.com) wrote:
: > lan...@econ.yale.edu (Lanier Benkard) wrote:
: [snip of sobering description of fatal accident on a 5.7 pitch at the
: "Small Cliff" at Ragged Mountain in Connecticut]
: > The victim had a weak pulse when I got there, but by the time the rescue
: > workers arrived at the base of the cliff (probably 5-10 minutes later)
: > he did not. They performed CPR and evacuated him by ambulance and
: > then helicopter (It landed on the dam).
: >
: > LESSONS:
: > 1) WEAR A HELMET!!! [snip]
: > 2) Know the rock you are climbing on. [snip]
: Good lessons.
: [sadly]
: I would add one more:
: 3) Know CPR. It may someday save a life.
: Brutus of Wyde
: Oakland, California
Just for informational purposes regarding this... I do know CPR
(though I did have a moment where I wished I was more current) and I
think that this is an important additional lesson. I chose not to
perform it in this case based on his having a pulse initially and my
inability (without any equipment and given his face down position) to
verify when and if he was completely in arrest. I also could hear the
sirens and knew the equipment was coming up the hill. In this kind of
accident, it is imperative that the victim not be moved unless CPR
becomes a necessity and furthermore I was alone which would have made
safely turning the victim over difficult, especially because he was
resting on an uneven rock shelf. I discussed my actions with the
rescue workers afterward and they said that I did the right thing
given my equipment (nil) and information. They were very careful
about verifying arrest before starting CPR given my information that a
pulse had been previously detected and his belayer's information that
he had previously been breathing. If we were farther from the road I
probably would have called my partner over to do CPR prior to their
arrival.
Lanier
Pembquist
In article <51n22e$j...@lal.interserv.com>, bbin...@ebmud.com (Brutus of
Wyde) writes:
>Good lessons.
>[sadly]
>I would add one more:
>
> 3) Know CPR. It may someday save a life.
>
>
No emotional force behind this question. I am interested if anyone knows
of an instance where an accident victim (other than lightning) has ever
been saved by the application of CPR when there trauma was enough to stop
their heart. Also same situation where time from no pulse to ALS or
emergency room was greater than 20 minutes.
PAHaidri
Refering to trauma situations only; performing CPR has occasionally saved
lives in the specific case of trauma induced pericardial tamponade,
usually caused by a rupture of the one of the big blood vessels coming off
the heart or of the heart muscle wall itself. This causes blood to be
trapped around the heart, constricting the heart so much so that little or
no blood gets pumped. CPR may keep the perfusion to the brain and vital
organs going long enough for survival if, big if, the tamponade is reduced
quickly enough (done with a long needle and a steady hand!). Regarding the
other question re survival after 20 min pulseless secondary to trauma with
continual CPR: no, doing CPR statistically would seem to make no
difference; in my limited experience everyone dead on scene (pulseless)
due to traumatic injury remains dead 20 min later despite CPR (with the
rare exception noted above although 20 minutes is severely pushing it).
Does that mean I would not due CPR? No, I probably would: for the victim's
family ("they did everything they possible could"), for the 1 in a
1,000,000 exception to the rule, and selfishly, for my own practice in
CPR/ACLS skills.
Other experiences, opinions?
(part-time ER RN)
LISARanger
pahaidri Wrote:
<some snippage>
other question re survival after 20 min pulseless secondary to trauma with
continual CPR: no, doing CPR statistically would seem to make no
difference; in my limited experience everyone dead on scene (pulseless)
due to traumatic injury remains dead 20 min later despite CPR (with the
rare exception noted above although 20 minutes is severely pushing it).
Does that mean I would not due CPR? No, I probably would: for the victim's
family ("they did everything they possible could"), for the 1 in a
1,000,000 exception to the rule, and selfishly, for my own practice in
CPR/ACLS skills.
Other experiences, opinions?
(part-time ER RN)
* * * * * * *
*
Your statistics are correct, but there are exceptions...
hypothermia, the tamponade you spoke of, and the most important, yet least
effective... Doing it for the family...
It's hard to sit there in front of famillies and friends, and not do
anything. It's a comfort to the survivors to see "something being done'
even if they realize that it won't be effective. It also helps the
rescuer tell themselves "I did everything I could".
I've been a paramedic for 9 years, and have performed CPR on hunderds of
people, most are dead before you get there, but some do respond. There is
always that "one chance", and depending on circumstances (I HATE seeing
terminal patients coded, when they should just be allowed to die with
dignity) you need to try.
Another consideration (squeamsih people stop here) is organ harvest. The
signing of an organ donor card is useless if the organ isn't perfused.
They can still get skin and other things, but it they are going to harvest
a heart or liver, it needs to be perfused by CPR. I would personally be
pissed off if someone wasted my organs. I signed the card for a reason,
and want what ever's usable to go to good use!
LISAR...@aol.com (Lisa Lawrence)
The opinions expressed here are my own, and not that of my employer, blah
blah blah...
MalibuGrif
CPR on this poor guy: probably not a realilistic option. From the brief
description that we are given of his injuries, the best chance he may of
had would of come from a nurosurgeon happening by. Having worked as a
paramedic, I have seen first hand that very, very few people survive
traumatic cardiac arrests even with helecopters and stand-by operating
rooms. I never once saw a traumatic head injury arrest victem revived.
(Thats not to say it doesn't happen, it just doesn't happen often)
Thank you for an interesting and sobering report. The lessons are a good
reminder for all.
Patrick Culbert
CPR does however supply oxygen to the brain and rest of the body, so it
can delay brain death. There is still a good amount of oxygen in your
breath when you exhale, which is carried to the rest of the body through
the bloodstream by the compressing (pumping) of the heart.
Patrick Culbert
Clyde Soles
Pembquist <pemb...@aol.com> wrote:
> > 3) Know CPR. It may someday save a life.
> No emotional force behind this question. I am interested if anyone knows
> of an instance where an accident victim (other than lightning) has ever
> been saved by the application of CPR when there trauma was enough to stop
> their heart. Also same situation where time from no pulse to ALS or
> emergency room was greater than 20 minutes.
Numerous instances of near drowning and avalanche burial. The stats on
CPR are dismal (<10% ) but that is largely skewed by the chronic's who
killed themselves decades earlier and massive trauma where there wasn't
much hope to start with. Even if your efforts are not successful, it
will be much easier consoling yourself with the knowledge you tried and
failed rather than you didn't know what to do. Be sure to find an
instructor who still teaches 2-person CPR...and practice. Just like
using avalanche beacons, you MUST refresh your skills periodically. For
that matter, not much point in using beacons if you don't know CPR.
John Forrest Gregory
In 1980 I was hit in the head by rockfall and dead at the scene. The
woman standing next to me was an ER technician. She revived me almost
instantly using a technique that I believe was called precordial thump.
EMT's later told me it was a very effective technique for head trauma and
drug overdose, but it fell from favor because it is hard to perform
correctly and very hard to learn without seeing it done for real. I was
lucky, if you discount getting hit in the first place.
Andreas Lehnert
In article <51o04a$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
LISARanger <lisar...@aol.com> wrote:
>It's hard to sit there in front of famillies and friends, and not do
>anything. It's a comfort to the survivors to see "something being done'
>even if they realize that it won't be effective. It also helps the
>rescuer tell themselves "I did everything I could".
Lawyers tell me that most states have strong "Good Samaritan" laws,
which protect people on the scene trying to help, but none are
willing to state categorically that I would be immune from a civil
action as the result of making an error in judgment or treatment.
I'd run for help, get on the cell phone and direct professionals to
the accident scene, but there's no way I'd touch an unconscious
stranger. It's just asking for trouble.
>The opinions expressed here are my own, and not that of my employer, blah
>blah blah...
Andreas
--
Andreas Lehnert aar...@hilbert.spc.uchicago.edu
awle...@midway.uchicago.edu
Chicago Climber's Guide:
http://student-www.uchicago.edu/users/awlehner/chiclimb.html
conan
PAHaidri wrote:
>
snip
> Other experiences, opinions?
> (part-time ER RN)
I've performed CPR on 4 occasions under the most arduous conditions on
the ski slopes - on skis, in a toboggan, on steep terrain and in
inclement weather - snow, rain etc.
In spite of the relatively low survival rates that were alluded to, I
think there are other merits worthy of mentioning:
1. I like the organ donorship/perfusion issue that lisaranger raised
2. I like also, the need to satisfy the vicarious actions/urges of
family members, friends, or bystanders that she raised
3. for me and the ski patrol environment, it is important that many
responders are involved so that the incident becomes a learning
opportunity; we can review protocols, make recommendations, and
constantly evolve and improve our response tactics/logistics. Each
situation will contribute in different ways to the following variables:
extrication, transport, high vs low angle, need for a helicopter,
teamwork, mountain communications etc.
4. similarly, it is important for rescuers trained in CPR who have
never performed CPR, to perform it if they feel comfortable. This
provides the opportunity for rescuers to get the feel of CPR on a real
person rather than a manikin, in a controlled setting where there is
both quantitative (EKG) monitoring and qualitative feedback (experienced
rescuers, CPR instructors)
Cheers, Conan.
EMT, CPR-Inst.
conan
I once met a gentleman on a chairlift who was taking his first vacation
in 5 years. He had spent the last 5 years rehabilitating from a head-on
motor vehicle accident. He was in full arrest, and had CPR performed on
him by a trained bystander, and was one of the lucky ones to receive
early ACLS (defibrillator, drugs, intubation). I watched in awe as he
glided down the slope making perfect parallel turns. I was fortunate
enough to have met him, and to have heard his story. He renewed my
vigor for each patient I provided care.
Cheers, Conan.
EMT, CPR-Inst.
Chuck Spiekerman
Maybe this is a nitpicky point but....
many responders have replied to the question
of the value of CPR by acknowledging the rather low
usefulness of CPR in terms of victim mortality but
then posit one of the merits of performing CPR
on a victim as a good time to practice CPR in a
real-life situation. [The above is of course all
paraphrased, please feel free to correct me]
Anyway...if CPR doesn't save victims, what is the
need to get practice using it? It seems to me that
to raise "practice" as a reason to use something assumes
that that something has merit in the first place, which
makes the argument rather circular doesn't it?
Chuck
LISARanger
Chuck Wrote:
Anyway...if CPR doesn't save victims, what is the
need to get practice using it? It seems to me that
to raise "practice" as a reason to use something assumes
that that something has merit in the first place, which
makes the argument rather circular doesn't it?
Chuck
* * * * * * *
*
Because Chuck, if you were the family of, or the patient that was in that
percentage that responds, you'd think it was worth it. CPR does work, not
every time, and not in every situation, but when it does, it is truely
amazing.
LISAR...@aol.com (Lisa Lawrence)
PAHaidri
Shoot, I can't get my server to quote other posts! Chuck wrote to the
effect that if CPR does'nt help much why bother? Valid observation based
on what has been posted but... CPR has been shown to definately increase
survival when initiated within 6 minutes and Advanced Cardiac Life support
is started within 8-12 minutes in the case of cardiac arrest due to
medical (not trauma) causes, ie heart attack, blocked airway, overdose,
etc. Properly performed CPR world wide has helped to save countless lives,
just not many due to trauma, that is hitting the deck.
Emil Briggs
Pembquist wrote:
>
> In article <51n22e$j...@lal.interserv.com>, bbin...@ebmud.com (Brutus of
> Wyde) writes:
>
> >Good lessons.
> >[sadly]
> >I would add one more:
> >
> >
> >
>
> No emotional force behind this question. I am interested if anyone knows
> of an instance where an accident victim (other than lightning) has ever
> been saved by the application of CPR when there trauma was enough to stop
> their heart. Also same situation where time from no pulse to ALS or
> emergency room was greater than 20 minutes.
Drowning cases. But maybe this is not what you mean by physical
trauma.
--
Emil Briggs
Email: bri...@quinn.physics.ncsu.edu
Pete Hurd
Clyde Soles wrote:
> Just like
> using avalanche beacons, you MUST refresh your skills periodically. For
> that matter, not much point in using beacons if you don't know CPR.
Really? Pieps aren't much use without CPR? Really?!
--
Pete Hurd pe...@zool.su.se
Zoologiska Institutionen Ph# 46-8-16-40-37
Stockholms Universitetet Fax 46-8-16-77-15
Stockholm S-106 91 Sweden
http://ethology.zool.su.se/pete.html
Alex
Chuck Spiekerman wrote:
>
> Maybe this is a nitpicky point but....
>
> many responders have replied to the question
> of the value of CPR by acknowledging the rather low
> usefulness of CPR in terms of victim mortality but
> then posit one of the merits of performing CPR
> on a victim as a good time to practice CPR in a
> real-life situation. [The above is of course all
> paraphrased, please feel free to correct me]
>
> need to get practice using it? It seems to me that
> to raise "practice" as a reason to use something assumes
> that that something has merit in the first place, which
> makes the argument rather circular doesn't it?
>
> Chuck
Just thought I would throw in a comment. It is true that CPR often does
not save the victum. However I would like to piont out that in most of
the cases where the victum does die is when they have sustained other
injuries or are not in fitt condition. I have seen first hand CPR keep
soemone alive on two occasions, and that's two out of two. If on the
off chance that you save a life is that not worth it. I think it gives
you good piece of mind to, a least you can say with confidance that you
have done all that you could.
AK
Howard Thiery
lan...@econ.yale.edu (Lanier Benkard) wrote:
>1) WEAR A HELMET!!! Whatever led to this accident, my completely
>uneducated opinion is that he would have lived if he had been wearing
>a helmet. Certainly his head wounds would have been much less.
>(Don't argue with me here. I SAW them.)
As an employee at the local outfitter where many climbers from the
ragged range shop I found it interesting that we have sold three
helmets in the last 48 hours (usually lucky to seel three every two
months).......all 3 helmets were sold to experienced climbers who have
been customers for years.....while I congratulate them on their wisdom
(and as one put it his new found sense of mortality) I'm curious why
more climbers don't have similar feelings....
----.the excuse has always been that most of the loose rock has been
cleaned out at our local crags, which like anyplace is of course not
true...while they are pretty clean and in nice shape compared to many
crags there are many routes that are loaded with loose rock
(i.e.-mainstreet)
--secondly there is a well established hiking trail that runs along
the top of the entire climbing area, hikers may not be aware of the
fact that there are climbers around and the risk they pose....stones
and other assorted debris may be innocently picked up and tossed over
the edge.
---thirdly loose rocks is not the only reason for a helmet.....I have
personally experienced climbers accidently dropping pro when
leading,cleaning or just setting up anchors for top roping....a
locking biner poses just as large a threat as most rocks do
.....and of course head injury in a fall is always possible, even one
that does not go to the ground
----lastly while the chances of all these things are slim as we have
all so recently seen it only takes once...so unless you have nothing
to live for (and even then there is always the next day climbing!)
consider wearing a helmet.
thanks and climb safe!
see you at the crags
HT
Clyde Soles
Pete Hurd <pe...@zool.su.se> wrote:
> > Just like
> > using avalanche beacons, you MUST refresh your skills periodically. For
> > that matter, not much point in using beacons if you don't know CPR.
>
> Really? Pieps aren't much use without CPR? Really?!
So please tell me, if you don't know CPR, what you are going to do when
you finally uncover your friend who has been buried for ten or fifteen
minutes, snow is packed into their mouth and nose, and they blue. If you
only know how to dig them up, you've only done half the job...unless you
were just looking for booty.
Dell Long RL3-223
Andreas Lehnert (awle...@midway.uchicago.edu) wrote:
> In article <51o04a$6...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>,
> LISARanger <lisar...@aol.com> wrote:
> >It's hard to sit there in front of famillies and friends, and not do
> >anything. It's a comfort to the survivors to see "something being done'
> >even if they realize that it won't be effective. It also helps the
> >rescuer tell themselves "I did everything I could".
> Lawyers tell me that most states have strong "Good Samaritan" laws,
> which protect people on the scene trying to help, but none are
> willing to state categorically that I would be immune from a civil
> action as the result of making an error in judgment or treatment.
> I'd run for help, get on the cell phone and direct professionals to
> the accident scene, but there's no way I'd touch an unconscious
> stranger. It's just asking for trouble.
If it is the fear of being sued, as long as you don't get paid for
what you are doing, i.e. you are not a doctor, EMT, ski patrol, etc., you
can't get sued. If you're worried about infection from rescue breathing,
carry a CPR sheild. I have one on my key chain, it goes wherever I do. I
worry much more about hepititis, HIV, etc. than a lawsuit.
I understand the apprehension, but I certainly hope that if something happens
to me, someone will be there to help. Brain damage can happen in like 4
minutes. The "professionals" will not get there in time.
Dell
Dell Long RL3-223
> many responders have replied to the question
> of the value of CPR by acknowledging the rather low
> usefulness of CPR in terms of victim mortality but
> then posit one of the merits of performing CPR
> on a victim as a good time to practice CPR in a
> real-life situation. [The above is of course all
> paraphrased, please feel free to correct me]
> Anyway...if CPR doesn't save victims, what is the
> need to get practice using it? It seems to me that
> to raise "practice" as a reason to use something assumes
> that that something has merit in the first place, which
> makes the argument rather circular doesn't it?
> Chuck
10%-15% survival rate > 0% survival rate. That's pretty much why I'd
try it. If you are performing CPR, the victim is clinically dead.
Can't do much to make them worse.
Dell
Steve Branam
Andreas Lehnert wrote:
>
> Lawyers tell me that most states have strong "Good Samaritan" laws,
> which protect people on the scene trying to help, but none are
> willing to state categorically that I would be immune from a civil
> action as the result of making an error in judgment or treatment.
>
> I'd run for help, get on the cell phone and direct professionals to
> the accident scene, but there's no way I'd touch an unconscious
> stranger. It's just asking for trouble.
>
My wife is a nurse, and I vaguely remember her mentioning that something
about her licensing obligates to lend any aid she is trained for when she
comes upon an accident. She certainly knows CPR (is in fact trained as an
instructor). Anyone know for sure? Something about liability if she does
not lend a hand??? Imagine what a lawyer would do in the case of a trained
medical professional at the scene not taking action to help. This would
seem to be grounds for charges of professional negligence.
Anyway, I could never stand by and watch someone die when there's the
slightest chance I could actually do something for them. Of course,
there's always the danger of exacerbating injuries by trying too hard, so
it is important to know your own limitations and be able to judge the
risks *to the victim* of helping or not helping.
--
Steve Branam Hub Products Engineering 508-486-6043
bra...@dechub.lkg.dec.com Digital Equipment Corporation DTN 226-6043
Allan Chong
Murray Hamlet, director of the Army's environmental injury research
center always came to speak to us once a year.
a couple of points he always mentioned:
For cold injuries such as being buried in an avalanche,
breathe in the victim but don't thump on their chest.
the warm air really helps resucitate cold victims.
the chance of saving someone is often depressingly low if it is
a massive injury situation. Weigh the physical and
psychological cost to the rescuers of prolonged CPR if
you are in a remote location or at altitude.
allan
Alan Brunelle
In article <51sf75$f...@mwrns.boulder.noaa.gov>, lo...@bora.fsl.noaa.gov
(Dell Long RL3-223) wrote:
> If it is the fear of being sued, as long as you don't get paid for
> what you are doing, i.e. you are not a doctor, EMT, ski patrol, etc., you
> can't get sued. If you're worried about infection from rescue breathing,
> carry a CPR sheild. I have one on my key chain, it goes wherever I do. I
> worry much more about hepititis, HIV, etc. than a lawsuit.
>
In the course I took on mountain rescue and CPR, we were told that unless
we were current on our CPR certification, we were in fact at risk for
suit. That may be a state to state variation but....
I think that if the people who certify others on CPR feel the need to be
current (or risk doing the CPR incorrectly) then the courts could have
serious questions of someone who performs it without the proper training.
Even the instructors have to be recertified. The courses they teach don't
satisfy that requirement.
That said, I would be willing to risk a law suit to help someone anyway.
Alan Brunelle
Russ Schwartz
Howard Thiery wrote:
> As an employee at the local outfitter where many climbers from the
> ragged range shop I found it interesting that we have sold three
> helmets in the last 48 hours (usually lucky to seel three every two
> months).......all 3 helmets were sold to experienced climbers who have
> been customers for years.....while I congratulate them on their wisdom
> (and as one put it his new found sense of mortality) I'm curious why
> more climbers don't have similar feelings....
Nothing like witnessing an accident or the results of one to drive home
the point that the rock is much harder than our heads. After twenty
years of climbing, I bought mine last year after assisting in the
evacuation of a climber who's helmut saved his life. I still don't wear
it all the time, but I do use it frequently. - Russ
Steve Branam
I would call you lucky! Another reason to wear a helmet.
I believe it's "precardial", not precordial. Again, drawing from my wife's
nurse training, it fell out of favor because it involves banging on the
victim's sternum. You see it on old TV shows and movies, because it's a
dramatic technique. Problem is, someone who doesn't know what they are
doing (and *especially* if they've seen it on TV) will more than likely
really draw their fist back and pound away at the person's chest, cracking
the sternum and breaking ribs free, possibly puncturing a lung or tearing
up major blood vessels. CPR is much more controlled. You can still
cause cause additional damage, especially if the ribs are already
separated, but you are not (should not, anyway) putting so much force into
it.
Pete Hurd
> > Really? Pieps aren't much use without CPR? Really?!
> So please tell me, if you don't know CPR, what you are going to do when
> you finally uncover your friend who has been buried for ten or fifteen
> minutes, snow is packed into their mouth and nose, and they blue. If you
> only know how to dig them up, you've only done half the job...unless you
> were just looking for booty.
Well that's what I'm asking. I had always assumed that CPR was a bad
stats
long shot thing. But when I look at the stats for avalanche victims,
(from
a paper in _Nature_) and I see that survivorship for 15 minutes burial
after
avalanche is 95% and 50% for 30 minutes, then I assume that it's worth
packing the pieps and shovel without knowing CPR, because stats that
good
must mean that mouth-to-mouth resusitation and fractures is about the
sort of
followup needed.
But you know your stuff (or at least more than I do) if it's necessary
to do
CPR then I'm further out than I thought.
I've never seen numbers on what proportion of avalanche victims need
CPR, I'd
have assumed it was <10%, I get the impression you'd say it was 80-95%,
that's
a wake-up call for me, next time I'm in an english speaking country I'll
get
lessons.
Cheers,
-P.
Rawdomg
A very experienced (20+ yr) climber was injured yesterday while soloing at
the Gunks. Beverly Keith was soloing on the second pitch of Updraft to
set up a belay for her partner to climb CCK (she was trailing a rope but
used no protection) when she fell (no reason for the slip available) about
30 feet to the GT ledge. She was badly shaken but never lost
consciousness. She was lowered off in a litter and taken to the hospital
for evaluation. I think she was quite lucky - a witness said the noise of
her hitting the ledge was surprisingly loud. Her fall was a tumbling one,
and that apparently helped dissipate some energy. I don't believe she was
wearing a helmet.
Mike
Rawdomg
Do you need to be certified if you only perform the rescue breathing part
of a 2 man CPR?
Mike
Conan
Steve Branam wrote:
>
> I believe it's "precardial", not precordial.
Actually, it was/is known as the "precordial thump." Precordial is the
adjective which comes from precordium, or the region over the heart and
lower thorax.
CL.
Ghiz
Well I cut work to go climbing on Friday (9/20) and ended up helping with
running the rescue equipment up to CCK and helping with the litter carry
out to the ranger truck.
What a shitty way to end your climbing season...like the 'Reid' Yosemite
guide says "...being a 5.11 climber doesn't mean you can fly."
On the good side...a lot of people stopped climbing and helped with the
rescue. There were no climbing parties (at least in the immediate
vicinity) who felt that there were enough people working the rescue and
kept on climbing (i.e. Smith Rock). It was obvious that many parties left
their ropes at their high points and went to help.
Climb safe.
HMAN
Clyde Soles
Rawdomg <raw...@aol.com> wrote:
> Do you need to be certified if you only perform the rescue breathing part
> of a 2 man CPR?
No. But if you want to do it effectively, you should take the class (4
to 8 hours). They don't really teach 2-person anymore unless you request
it and even then the protocols have changed a lot.
Alan Brunelle
> Do you need to be certified if you only perform the rescue breathing part
> of a 2 man CPR?
>
I'm not sure. It might be enough for just one person to be certified. We
were trained to carry out the rescue and to lead a group in rescue. It
seemed pretty clear that not all involved would necessarily be certified.
But I get the feeling that attitudes are changing on this. The reason I
say this is that I have been seeing TV advertisements describing how to do
CPR on adults. If I see that ad again I'll try to see who is sponsoring
it.
One thing that I remember from the course is that you need to get a hands
on feel of the amount of pressure to apply when compressing the chest.
There is also a means of measuring accurately where to place the heal of
your hand to get the proper compression. I don't see how and ad can do
that, but they may be betting that a poor CPR is better than none.
Laws might be changing or are different from state-to-state.
Alan
Steve Branam
Howard Thiery wrote:
> ----.the excuse has always been that most of the loose rock has been
> cleaned out at our local crags, which like anyplace is of course not
> true...while they are pretty clean and in nice shape compared to many
> crags there are many routes that are loaded with loose rock
And the clean spots can get loaded back up when it rains heavily.
I was at a popular and crowded central Massachusetts location yesterday.
The day before I had been out in western Mass. Both places had a lot of
loose stuff at the top, with dried dirt running down the rock, due to
heavy rains within the past couple of weeks. The one I was at yesterday
is getting ready to lose a good anchor tree due to erosion undercutting
the roots. This is a pretty-heavily used top-rope spot, so there are
always plenty of feet scuffling around to keep it clear. But the runoff
erosion had left lots of little stuff loose at the top. I knocked several
small pieces down where my partner (with helmet!) was waiting. Standing
next to him was the instructor from the group who had just cleared their
setup, writing in a notebook (having watched them for 45 minutes, he was
clearly an experienced and competent group climber). He had taken his
helmet off, despite knowing I was setting up directly above. He gave a
rather annoyed "Thank you" when I somewhat belatedly called "rock!"
(sorry!). Fortunately I didn't bounce anything off them.
Having read this string, I was very conscious of the fact that this group
had several people climbing without helmets. I didn't say anything, just
being a top-ropin' newbie, but I was a little surprised to see someone
who did such a good job otherwise not be stricter on helmet use.
Scott Linn
Ghiz (gh...@aol.com) wrote:
: On the good side...a lot of people stopped climbing and helped with the
: rescue. There were no climbing parties (at least in the immediate
: vicinity) who felt that there were enough people working the rescue and
: kept on climbing (i.e. Smith Rock).
Would you care to elaborate on this? You've piqued my curiosity...
--
________________________________________________________________________
Scott Linn
CMOS IC Design Engineer
Hewlett-Packard Integrated Circuits Business Division - Corvallis, OR
e-mail: sc...@cv.hp.com phone: (541)715-4033 fax: (541)715-2145
________________________________________________________________________
Dell Long RL3-223
Rawdomg (raw...@aol.com) wrote:
> Do you need to be certified if you only perform the rescue breathing part
> of a 2 man CPR?
> Mike
Unless you are joining the search and rescue team, you don't _need_ to be
certified to do either part. If you want to do it
right with the least risk of further injuring the victim, yes, get certified.
When you are administering rescue breathing, how would you open the airway
if you suspect neck trauma (as I think all climbing accidents could assume)?
You can't just do a neck tilt, you'll paralize them. Besides, your partner
doing chest compressions is going to get tired and want to switch. What then?
Short answer: Yes, take a CPR class.
Dell
Ghiz
>sc...@cv.hp.com (Scott Linn) wrote:
>
>Would you care to elaborate on this? You've piqued my curiosity...
(re: Smith Rock rescues)
Well, a while back there was a thread about a rescue that took place at
Smith Rock. The primary message that I got out of the thread was a lot of
climbers in the immediate vicinity of the accident continued to climb and
did not help. They may have thought that there were enough people already
involved with the rescue. Who knows?
HMAN
Russ Schwartz
Scott Linn wrote:
>
> Ghiz (gh...@aol.com) wrote:
>
> : On the good side...a lot of people stopped climbing and helped with the
> : rescue. There were no climbing parties (at least in the immediate
> : vicinity) who felt that there were enough people working the rescue and
> : kept on climbing (i.e. Smith Rock).
>
>
I wasn't the original poster (but that doesn't stop anyone else from jumping,
so why should I be different). Several years ago at Smith and last year at
Vantage accidents happened close to where I was climbing. In both cases
there were so many people willing (and reasonably qualified) to help that it
quickly became appartent that everyone else should just stay back on give
them room to work. In the case at Smith the injury was serious, but not life
threatening - so many near bye, but not involved just kept climbing. IMO,
nothing wrong with that - rock time is precious.
- Russ
David B. Rogers
Dell Long RL3-223 wrote:
>
> Rawdomg (raw...@aol.com) wrote:
> > Do you need to be certified if you only perform the rescue breathing part
> > of a 2 man CPR?
>
> > Mike
>
> Unless you are joining the search and rescue team,
<snip>
In our outdoor emergency care class, the instructor (a paramedic
who does S&R) told us they don't even start CPR in the back country.
CPR is only to keep the brain & c alive until the ambulance comes...
and they can restart the heart.
Unless a helicopter is minutes away... you can't keep CPR up for hours...
It will wear out the rescuers to no avail... but could you just sit there?
john w. puziss
> >A very experienced (20+ yr) climber was injured yesterday while soloing
> at
> >the Gunks. Beverly Keith was soloing on the second pitch of Updraft to
> >set up a belay for her partner to climb CCK (she was trailing a rope but
> >used no protection) when she fell (no reason for the slip available)
> about
> >30 feet to the GT ledge. She was badly shaken but never lost
> >consciousness. She was lowered off in a litter and taken to the hospital
> >for evaluation. I think she was quite lucky - a witness said the noise
> of
> >her hitting the ledge was surprisingly loud. Her fall was a tumbling
> one,
> >and that apparently helped dissipate some energy. I don't believe she
> was
> >wearing a helmet.
I chatted with a friend of hers (possibly her climbing partner??) the day
after the accident, on the belay above the first pitch of Silhouette. The
reason she apparently gave for falling was that one of the holds was wet.
She decided to go for it anyway, and slipped. She was extremely lucky,
having only broken a small bone in her hand, plus cuts and bruises.
JP
--
The opinions expressed are my own and not those of my employer.
Dale Firmin
Can CPR be successfully performed by a layman? My answer is "yes". My
mother successfully performed the Heimlick maneuver (abdominal thrusts)
on my choking grandmother having only seen a commercial on TV !!!!
I am a degreed paramedic, American Heart Association CPR instructor,
ACLS (Advanced Cardiac Life Support) instructor and PALS (Pediatric
Advanced Life Support) instructor. Problems with layman CPR are usually
airway and overinflation (leading to gastric distention, which leads to
vomiting and then aspiration of emesis). The best bet is to take a CPR
course. You can probably take one for free from your local fire
department or Red Cross. If you have children, I highly suggest that
you take the healthcare provider course, which covers child and infant.
Invest in a small, cheap face sheild to protect you against
secreations. I have one in my pocket at all times. I call it my
"American Express Card" (apologies to AMEX) because I "never leave home
without it".
BTW, you are NOT "certified" in CPR. This implies agency responsibilty
for your training. Your card will read that you successfully completed
the course on that particular date according to their atandards.
AHA "Basic Life Support for Healthcare Providers" page 4-15 explains how
to get an untrained lay rescuer to assist in CPR.
Also, under normal circumstances, with cardiac arrest (no pulse), brain
damage begins in 4 mins and is certain after 10 mins. If cardiac arrest
is caused by heart disease or toxins, electrolyte imbalance or drug
overdose, the chance of CPR without electrical and/or pharmacological
intervention is slim. However, climbers should rarely fall into that
category. (Trauma and lightning strike more likely). As for the
paramedic, he probably has a "duty to respond" and NOT performing CPR
can get his license pulled, heavily fined and possibly arrested and
serve time in prison. A layman, even with a CPR card, has no duty to
respond (depending on your occupation) and does not have to start CPR.
Most states now have the Good Samaritan Law where a person cannot be
sued for providing CPR/First Aid to a victum.
So go get your card. When do you stop CPR? When the victum revives,
someone relieves you or you can no longer continue. You are not
expected to continue attempting to revive someone until you yourself are
a victum. Just have the peace of mind that you did the best that you
could and that despite some of the most heroic efforts, people die.
Unlike the TV show "Rescue 911", over 90% of patients requiring CPR
either die or are permenantly brain damaged. Our efforts are for the
other 10%.
Sincerely,
Dale Firmin NREMT P0869486, CPR, ACLS, PALS, BTLS, AD, BS.
Clyde Soles
David B. Rogers <sl...@lanl.gov> wrote:
> In our outdoor emergency care class, the instructor (a paramedic
> who does S&R) told us they don't even start CPR in the back country.
Bullshit! Your instructor is a moron if he made this as a blanket
statement. Lightening strikes are good examples where CPR has a high
revival rate; there are others too.
> CPR is only to keep the brain & c alive until the ambulance comes...
> and they can restart the heart.
Also preserves organs for donation.
> Unless a helicopter is minutes away... you can't keep CPR up for hours...
True for one person. Not true for two person, especially if there are
others around to cycle in. In some cases, it won't be worth the effort
but in others it may be.
Ross Simpson
On Thu, 26 Sep 1996 14:53:15 -0600, "David B. Rogers" <sl...@lanl.gov>
wrote:
><snip>
>
>In our outdoor emergency care class, the instructor (a paramedic
>who does S&R) told us they don't even start CPR in the back country.
>
>CPR is only to keep the brain & c alive until the ambulance comes...
>and they can restart the heart.
>
>Unless a helicopter is minutes away... you can't keep CPR up for hours...
>
>It will wear out the rescuers to no avail... but could you just sit there?
I know I probably couldn't.. i have been certified in the past and i
would probably make some effort to save the person.. how would it feel
to know that a person could have lived but you didn't try?
maybe you could find some other people who know cpr and rotate until a
rescue team arrives...
good question...
Scott Linn
Clyde Soles (cso...@rmi.net) wrote:
: > Unless a helicopter is minutes away... you can't keep CPR up for hours...
: True for one person. Not true for two person, especially if there are
: others around to cycle in. In some cases, it won't be worth the effort
: but in others it may be.
There was a case this year where 4 doctors did CPR on a colleague for 4-5
HOURS after a heart attack during a fishing trip, and he lived.
Peter Wollan
>
> There was a case this year where 4 doctors did CPR on a colleague for 4-5
> HOURS after a heart attack during a fishing trip, and he lived.
>
Actually it was 6 hours, and at the end the guy got up, smiled, picked up
his bed, and walked away.
I guess you can't call this an urban legend, since it was a fishing trip.
Peter Wollan