More fuel for the old helmet debate...
Brad
Saturday with my partner, Lothar. We climbed the usual stuff -- Cheap
Thrills, Let It Bleed, Mind Bender,etc. Lothar decided he wanted to lead a
climb called The Roof before we called it a day. The Roof is rated around
5.8 but has some run out sections on easier ground. He got through the crux
moves before the actual roof and was able to surmount the overhang using the
large jugs above it. He was now about 10 feet above the last bolt. From
this stance, the next pro is a bolt about 15 feet up and slightly left. The
climbing is this section is not hard, but is it run out. This is where the
story gets a bit fuzzy as Lothar has no recollection of the following
events. Out of the corner of my eye, I suddenly see him airborne heading for
the deck. I instinctively lock my break hand and he comes to a stop about
30 feet below his last stance. He's hanging upside-down and blood starts
streaming down the rock from his head. Lothar is unconscious and hangs
completely motionless for at least 15-20 seconds. I didn't want to lower
him head first, but was about ready to just as he started groaning. I was
quite relieved to hear his voice and see him slowly gain consciousness once
again. I started talking to him and got him to rotate his body sideways so
I could lower him to the deck without worrying about his head being dragged
down the rock. Lothar had a two inch gash in the back of his head and I
quickly placed gauss pads from the first aid kit over the wound and applied
pressure. The bleeding stopped fairly quickly and I secured the pads with
tape. He was now quite coherent, although a bit dizzy, and he passed all
the standard questions -- what's your name?, etc. Today was his lucky day,
it appeared he would be ok. I took him to the hospital where they stitched
him up and ran a few cat scans. He had some blood pooling between his skull
and brain and remains in the hospital as a precaution.
I figure posting this event serves as a reminder to us all that even on
easy, unprotected territory, mistakes or acts of god can and do happen.
I've been climbing without a helmet for 26 years and basically got Lothar
into this sport. Lothar is no amateur as he has climbed for over 5 years
and can lead 5.10 face all day. I suppose I "lead by example" and he does
not own a helmet as well. We fall all the time as we climb pretty close to
our max capabilities. However, these falls always occur at well protected
crux sections resulting in no more than a little road rash. I've never hit
my head in all these years of climbing (or had anything land on it!).
Climbing is dangerous. Man, I just had a wakeup call.....
-Brad
Tyto
protect against rockfall - a helmet here would likely have eliminated this
situation entirely. I bet you wear a seatbelt though......
glad to hear he'll be ok.
David Kastrup
Yesterday was climbing in the Eifel (yes, wearing a helmet). Was
leading when a sizable "pebble" I tried standing on shattered into two
(I really should lose weight) and the broken off part landed *very*
close to my belayer (not wearing helmet). If it had hit home, both
of us would have been in serious trouble.
I usually put my helmet on when in the area, and take it off when
leaving again.
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de
Madbolter
> Lothar decided he wanted to lead a
> climb called The Roof before we called it a day. The Roof is rated around
> 5.8 but has some run out sections on easier ground. He got through the crux
> moves before the actual roof and was able to surmount the overhang using the
> large jugs above it. He was now about 10 feet above the last bolt. From
> this stance, the next pro is a bolt about 15 feet up and slightly left. The
> climbing is this section is not hard, but is it run out.
Sorry your friend got hurt.
He was offroute. "The Roof" goes straight up, not up to the left after
the route's namesake. While the climbing might not have been difficult,
less travelled ways tend to still have friable flakes, dirt or other
complications. It's been over 10 years since I've been to Big Rock
but doesn't that section right after the roof take some pro? I think it
does, and that would've helped too. Big Rock was developed back before
sport climbing's all bolt routes.
-Rex Pieper
Christopher Brian Colohan
> I think people that lead without helmets are total fools. Helmets dont just
> protect against rockfall - a helmet here would likely have eliminated this
> situation entirely. I bet you wear a seatbelt though......
What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. If you flip
through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
hell not?
The majority of people at my local crags do not wear helmets, but they
are definitely not rare... Personally, I always wear a helmet, even
when toproping.
> glad to hear he'll be ok.
Me too.
Chris
--
Chris Colohan Email: ch...@colohan.ca PGP: finger col...@cs.cmu.edu
Web: www.cs.cmu.edu/~colohan Phone: (412)268-4751
Brad Cooke
Christopher Brian Colohan wrote:
> What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
> you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. [...]
Sport climbers and boulderers, maybe. Can't say I've too many pics of
alpine/ice climbers w/o helmets on.
BC
Michael E. Gordon
I'm too sexy for my shirt
Too sexy for my helmet
Too sexy for this rope
Too sexy
elmar
Man, I just had a wakeup call.....
better late than never...
e.stefke
Cartman
If you don't have anything nice to say don't say anything at all.
David Kastrup
Would it have been nicer if he had been unhappy to hear the leader
will be ok?
Guido
> > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
We need to judge such madness within the context of history, the spirit of
the day, and the skillset of safety.
I like to think that folks who are growing, cultures which are emerging, and
sports which are developing --- all provide one similar pattern.: the
oldsters in each of these groups appear neanderthal when viewed through a
modern lens. It's as though the previous age's golden boys were clueless
when evaluated with the perspective of today's today.
It wasn't long ago, for example, that NHL hockey players wore no headgear,
that NBA basketball players wore no mouth protectors, and that few
rockclimbers wore helmets. Those folks weren't fools; theirs was just the
dress and hardware which enjoyed currency in its day, an expression of
accepted practice.
As the management of risk has grown and each sport matured, players have
grown to better understand the risks and the tools at hand to ensure
longevity. But this is an emergence, a morph'ing of the culture of
climbing, and a hard-fought acknowledgement of the obvious which only
hindsight affords.
Still, many older climbers continue to dismiss the need for a helmet,
choosing to mitigate the risks of rockfall and leader falls with:
* making early starts
* choosing ridgeline ascents over open faces
* never climbing below others
* climbing within their abilities
* avoiding freeze-thaw cycle days
* moving quickly through likely rockfall zones
* seeking protected belays
* moving fast
These methods mitigate risk regardless of helmet usage but have remained the
hallmark of oldsters who continue to climb without head protection.
Obviously, they should appeal to the helmeted climber as well.
The game is not just to climb. It's to climb safely; ergo, it's to manage
risk.
Guides, the posterchildren of moderation, have long worn helmets as have
their clients, not just to mitigate liability issues or to reduce risk, but
to demonstrate commitment to the safest of standards. Were guides perhaps
leading the movement, ahead of the curve?
If so, then those who elect helmets may do well to continue their study of
safety by embracing modern rescue methods, again following the lead of
guides. That a helmet has spared your partner more serious injury from a
fall doesn't ensure that one's inability to manage the rescue may not do him
further damage. If Hippocrates was still climbing, he might admonish:
"Partner, do no further harm."
I wonder if those same safety-conscious, helmeted climbers who preach the
benefits of such safety would be able to escape the belay to assist an
injured leader, reach and secure an injured climber who is more than
half-rope out, or stabilize and rappel with an injured partner?
It's all one, very sophisticated complex of skills and decision-making
which, in the end, promote and perhaps, in some minor way, ensure safety.
While the helmet may be a fine addition, its inclusion is likely
begrudgingly necessary, but not sufficient, to ensure bragging rights back
in town.
Guido
Tyto
climbing. Even toproping. I bet this newsgroup could come up with 6 dozen
serious and legitamte sounding reasons why a helmet isnt necessary. They'd
all be bunk though.
Scott Grimes
"Michael E. Gordon" wrote
......it hurts.
Meow
Madbolter
Pop quiz hotshot: Do you wear one bouldering?
This question is not rhetorical.
Tell us you practice what you preach.
-Rex "bouldering: where every fall is a groundfall" Pieper
x15x15
Number one reason is if I wore a helmet then I would not be who I am on
wreck.climbing. Every group needs a good person to rip a part due to his
logic......................... or lack of.....................
x15 easy pick'ns x15
Brad
> Sorry your friend got hurt.
>
> He was offroute. "The Roof" goes straight up, not up to the left after
> the route's namesake. While the climbing might not have been difficult,
> less travelled ways tend to still have friable flakes, dirt or other
> complications. It's been over 10 years since I've been to Big Rock
> but doesn't that section right after the roof take some pro? I think it
> does, and that would've helped too. Big Rock was developed back before
> sport climbing's all bolt routes.
>
> -Rex Pieper
>
Actually, I meant slightly right -- not left. And yes, I suppose you could
put more pro in. However, he's been up this route a million times and could
probably free solo it. He fell after all the hard moves. Something went
terribly wrong -- he just doesn't remember. Maybe there's another lesson
about putting in some pro in the easier sections.....just in case. On
second thought, if you need pro on all the easy sections, you'd never be
able to lead half the stuff at Suicide or Tuolumne.
-Brad
Christopher Brian Colohan
> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned:
>
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
Please be careful how you quote. If you read my message, you will see
that I quoted someone else saying that, and I never said that myself.
Tyto
Tyto
while toproping? No, I didnt. WHy dont I do either, dumbass machismo "Ive
climbed here enough I know theres little dnager of rockfall blah blah blah"
and "Im only 6 feet off the ground with a spotter"
I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when I
dont wear one.
Bill Zaumen
<str...@hotmail.com> wrote:
> I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
> and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
>
> But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when I
> dont wear one.
While it was a freak incident, I once heard a story from a climber who
had a close call due to wearing a helmet. He was on a short climb
in the 'Gunks (Keyhole ?), and went up a crack that first widened,
and then narrowed at a spot where you could go out onto the face.
Although only following the pitch, he moved his head up a bit and
leaned back to rest, and got his helmet got stuck in the crack.
He didn't feel comfortable letting go of the handholds, which meant
he couldn't unfasten the buckle, and the rope was running to the side
just enough that his partner couldn't support him on tension. The
possibility of hanging by the neck until dead did come to mind.
He described the situation and after what seemed like a minute his
partner, who was kind of taciturn, said, "hmmm." A minute or so later,
the suggestion that the crack was wider on the outside presented itself
and the climber shook his head back and forth, getting the helmet to
'walk' towards the outside of the crack.
Names have been deleted to protect the guilty.
Bill
--
As an anti-spam measure, my email address is only provided in a GIF
file. Please see <http://home.pacbell.net/zaumen/email.gif>.
Spammers can try mailto:s34...@aol.com mailto:sdkj34...@aol.com
Mike Shutters
news:y_yl8.8587$To6.2...@e420r-atl1.usenetserver.com...
>
> I never said I wasnt a foolish victim of the testosterone gotta look cool
> and helmet arent sexy(as soneone has pointed out).
>
> But I am intelligent and honest enough to admit that Im a damned fool when
I
> dont wear one.
>
At least it's still a choice.
Guido
context:
>> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned (oops):
>>
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
> Please be careful how you quote. If you read my message,
> you will see that I quoted someone else saying that,
> and I never said that myself.
> Chris
> Tyto also added:
> ditto, just backing up with more opinion what you said.
Yes, my apologies to you Chris for alluding the reference to you. And my
assurance to Tyto that next time I'll cut and paste more context in
fairness.
The effort was not intended to criticize, but to invite a broader picture of
issues in safety. And the "total fools" reference served as a perfect hook!
See the "self-rescue" thread which has resulted.
Now, in normal conversation, one might have just led the topic to rescue
methods. But, in the time-honored traditions of RC, I "punished the
published" instead!
Towards a kinder and gentler rec.climbing,
Guido
David Collins
> What amazes me is if you look in an issue of Rock & Ice or Climbing,
> you will not see a single person wearing a helmet. If you flip
> through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
> hell not?
You must mean the first of John Long's books. In "Advanced Rock
Climbing" there is at least on picture of Steph Davis wearing a helmet.
David
--
David Collins, Department of Physics
Carnegie Mellon University, Pittsburgh PA 15213
Voice: (412) 268-2779 email:
coll...@andrew.cmu.edu
webpage: http://www.andrew.cmu.edu/user/collins5/index.html
Gnarling
> Christopher Brian Colohan may have spoken for many when he penned:
> > > I think people that lead without helmets are total fools.....
Guido pontificates:
> We need to judge such madness within the context of history, the spirit of
> the day, and the skillset of safety.
Geez, Guido, you talk a lot!
> I like to think that folks who are growing, cultures which are emerging, and
> sports which are developing --- all provide one similar pattern.: the
> oldsters in each of these groups
Always talking about "oldsters..."
> As the management of risk has grown and each sport matured, players have
> grown to better understand the risks and the tools at hand to ensure
> longevity. But this is an emergence, a morph'ing of the culture of
> climbing, and a hard-fought acknowledgement of the obvious which only
> hindsight affords.
Blah, blah, blah.
> Still, many older climbers continue to dismiss the need for a helmet,
more talk about "older climbers"
> These methods mitigate risk regardless of helmet usage but have remained the
> hallmark of oldsters
more old...
If Hippocrates was still climbing, he might admonish:
> "Partner, do no further harm."
Man, that is deep, real deep.
Sorry to flame you but you're getting on my nerves with all these
pearls of wisdom. Like we haven't talked about helmets, helmuts and
likes here for years. Why don't you post a trip report of a recent
climb instead of always talking about old climbers.
Inez
Old
George Marsden
it irritates me more to hear people making blanket statements about
what is the only safe way to climb. Historically climbing has been
about self reliance and decision making, and moves towards "rules"
really run counter to that. Wearing a helmet is a personal choice.
Each climber must be responsible for managing their own risk, whether
that means wearing a helmet or trusting fixed gear.
With the above disclaimer having been said, I never leave the ground
on lead or top rope without a helmet. I resolved to follow this
personal policy 4 years ago. I do not do this because I think that a
helmet is required for all of these climbs, I do it because if I
always wear my helmet I will never NOT be wearing it when I need it.
It is all too easy to start up a climb you need your helmet on
without it if you have not made it a standard part of your kit. I had
done this more than once before commiting myself to always wear a
helmet. I have personaly never found myself in a situation where I
thought "If I just wasn't wearing my helmet I would feel/be safer".
When I climb with others I always encourage them to wear helmets and
even offer one of my extra helmets if they want to borrow one. Most of
the people I have climbed regularly with or taught how to climb have
adopted my personal approach to helmets ( well at least most of the
time). I personal subversive plan is that if I show up a crag with
friends and we are all wearing helmets it will make the other folks
wonder if they are missing something. Subvert the dominant paradigm.
As a point of discussion, what role if any do think the outdoor retail
industry should play in encouraging helmet ownership/use?
When I worked as the climbing buyer for an outdoor shop I encouraged
the staff to present helmets as a standard part of the gear a beginner
needs. To support this I also got helmets included in the items for
which the customer got a discount when purchasing a basic set of
climbing gear (shoes, harness, chalkbag, belay device).
There is a dangerous irony in the fact that falls on lower angle
"beginner" climbs have a greater potential for flipping over and
hitting your head than steeper, harder climbs. It seems that many
people figure that a helmet is something you get when you are more
experienced. In many ways it is experience that would inform you when
a helmet is likely to be necessary, making them even more essential
for beginners.
-George Marsden
PS: And just in case you are wondering I do not wear a helmet
boudering. With graying hair and a growing gut one must have his
sacrifices to vanity. I am however a very conservative boulderer.
Dave Buchanan
> If you flip
> through John Long's book, you will not see a single helmet. Why the
> hell not?
John Long's *Advanced Rock Climbing* has helmets everywhere.
Hardman Knott
Guido
> Sorry to flame you but you're getting on my nerves with all these
> pearls of wisdom. Like we haven't talked about helmets, helmuts and
> likes here for years. Why don't you post a trip report of a recent
> climb instead of always talking about old climbers.
Yeah, I've been overdoing it. Dunno whether it's middle aged alz' settling
in early, or those busted ribs I'm resting after crashing down one chute too
steep in a recent BC ski tour. Likely both.
'Just too much time on my hands...and no trips 'til April and June. Argh!
Gotta control that coffee intake. Now where'd I put that cup?
Guido
Erik Sandelin
independently thinking than average people" and "Climbing is about
risk-management and each climber carefully evalutes the risks before
venturing onto a climb".
In my opinion vanity and "not want to be different" is as widespread
in climbing as anywhere. When it comes to the helmet issue I am fine
with helmless climbers who carefully evaluates the situation: Solid
rock, no people above, clean falls, ..... But the problem is that the
majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
I think showing more pictures of good climbers wearing helmets would
make a difference ( for the better ). Isn't it for example true that
the density of helmets on El Cap has changed in the last couple of
years ?
I also agree that for safe climbing ther's more to it than helmets.
Self rescue and first-aid are things all climbers should learn but
helmets is a first and easy step in the right direction.
Erik
brooke
> There is no good reason why _not_ to wear a helmet when
> climbing. Even toproping. I bet this newsgroup could come up with 6 dozen
> serious and legitamte sounding reasons why a helmet isnt necessary.
1) Helmets are hot.
2) Helmets are uncomfortable.
3) Helmets cost too much.
4) Helmets look stupid.
5) My girlfriend won't give me head if I wear one.
6) I don't really care if I die.
7) I don't really care if my partner dies too.
8) I forgot it at home.
9) I forgot it in the car.
etc.
> They'd all be bunk though.
Sez you. During our daily lives we make countless decisions regarding
acceptable risk. One of the decisions regarding acceptable risk you
have made is that you climb. There are lots of people out there ready
to condemn you as a total fool for climbing. Because my level of
acceptable risk (and my partner's too if they climb with me when I
don't wear a helmet) is different than yours doesn't make me a total
fool.
Before you try to blindly label me a total macho fool, take the
following quiz:
1) Do you drive above the speed limit?
2) Do you smoke?
3) Do you drink alcohol?
4) Do you eat foods high in saturated fat?
5) Do you engage in unprotected sex?
If you do even one of those things, you are putting yourself at risk
for an early grave. And I'll be the first one to call you a total
macho fool.
Brooke "totally x-treeem" Hoyer
Tim Stich
Yes indeed, all bunk. However, here's a short list why I don't wear my
helmet sport climbing in town:
1. I forgot my helmet.
2. It's too hot outside.
3. I have a headache and the helmet makes it worse.
4. My helmet is too big and looks silly.
5. My helmet is bright green and ugly.
6. My helmet has too much dead skin and dirt worked into the chin
strap.
7. No one else is wearing one, so I don't need it.
8. My helmet won't fit in the pack and it bothers me to carry it
dangling around.
9. Someone might take a picture of me in my stupid helmet.
10. My butt itches.
On the other hand, I *always* wear a helmet leading trad and climbing
in areas with loose rock, ie. Potrero Chico, Continental Ranch, TX, or
any wilderness area. Some day, I'll buy a cool looking helmet to wear
sport climbing, one with range-finding lasers and a camera. That's the
ticket.
-Tim
Tyto
the one thing you listed, which is driving above the speed limit, I am being
a dumbass. I dont hide behind wording like "acceptable risk". Is it so hard
to admit that you're a fool for doing something thats dangerous?
Mike Garrison
>
> the one thing you listed, which is driving above the speed limit, I am being
> a dumbass. I dont hide behind wording like "acceptable risk". Is it so hard
> to admit that you're a fool for doing something thats dangerous?
You are asking this in a climbing forum? Who's the fool
here?
-Mike
N42461
>But the problem is that the
>majority of helmless climbers are so because it doesn't look sexy,
>their friends doesn't wear them and none of the cool climbers in the
>magazines wear them (except for alpinists and ice-climbers).
"Got Proof" or you just think so? The mag pix we'll make a gimme.
I'd venture (with as little proof) many folks who climb helmetless do so
because they prefer to. Not because they are ignorant of risk, or want to look
sexy, but perhaps because they damn well please to. And perhaps they don't feel
the need to give a reason to anyone.
'Course you could always have the 'Gate Rangers' take away their belay
licences. Better yet, throw in using a hip belay or a bowline tie-in or a
single sling anchor to the list of offences........
nathan sweet
