Simul-climbing with double ropes
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
- - I've looked around for an answer to this question
and haven't found anything very useful. The possible
options I see are
1. Just use one rope.
Pros: Easier to manage, use less gear
Cons: One sharp edge between you and certain death
2. Use both ropes in double mode.
Pros: Multiple independant anchors on each rope.
Cons: Complicated, rope drag issues, how do you
minimize slack on both ropes.
3. Use both ropes in twin mode.
Pros: Simpler to manage, safer than one.
Cons: I don't know...
- - Anyway, I'd like to hear what other people think. I'd probably
only ever be brave enough to do this in the context of low
angle ice and snow, but maybe forth class rock.
- - Booker C. Bense
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQCVAwUBO7C4pgD83u1ILnWNAQHHnwQAs+lHEatWyhB5Ji02gIIN90CYtm2VH+/i
5FAh2S924N6CYqScnCU2I133NhNHHHhfFfAv6bzsW+NixD0urx7KeanNYiWGQ2J3
SXKkhE1UOwqz1+s7a0vD4+b1hDBg+kYM3NOkKEeywoLtMyH44WFc5Q+jQRHmi/Ch
AC8QToPIjeg=
=4+5k
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Dingus Milktoast
>
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
> - - I've looked around for an answer to this question
> and haven't found anything very useful. The possible
> options I see are
>
> 1. Just use one rope.
>
> Pros: Easier to manage, use less gear
>
> Cons: One sharp edge between you and certain death
>
> 2. Use both ropes in double mode.
>
> Pros: Multiple independant anchors on each rope.
>
> Cons: Complicated, rope drag issues, how do you
> minimize slack on both ropes.
>
> 3. Use both ropes in twin mode.
>
> Pros: Simpler to manage, safer than one.
>
> Cons: I don't know...
>
> - - Anyway, I'd like to hear what other people think. I'd probably
> only ever be brave enough to do this in the context of low
> angle ice and snow, but maybe forth class rock.
I have and would continue to exercise option 3. I use double
ropes in twin configuration almost exclusively, ie. treat
the 2 ropes as one. Someone here once suggested there is a
potential problem with the 2 lead ropes rubbing against one
another in a fall where both ropes are clipped to once piece
through one biner. Their solution was to use 2 pieces or two
draws (or biners). Personally I thought that concern was
laughable, but ceding there is always something new to be
learned, I asked the question of two mfg. test people I
know, who are also very experienced ice and mountain
climbers. Neither had ever hard of a problem with my method
(both ropes through same biner on one piece) and neither had
a problem using the technique themselves. Your results may
vary (mountain climbing is DANGEROUS!).
Option 2 is, in my opinion, unnecessary and time consuming.
Option 1 doesn't lend itself to the mountain climbing
conditions I expect you're interested in.
DMT
Eric D. Coomer
"Dingus Milktoast" <crha...@midtown.net> wrote in message
news:3BB0BE17...@midtown.net...
> Someone here once suggested there is a
> potential problem with the 2 lead ropes rubbing against one
> another in a fall where both ropes are clipped to once piece
> through one biner.
This "situation" is only a *possibility* if you're using standard double
rope technique and decide to clip both ropes into one biner ala twin
technique somewhere along the route. The *theory* is that since the two
ropes by virtue of the double technique take different paths (as opposed to
twin tech) in a fall the ropes will stretch differently and hence may lead
to friction between the two strands if clipped into one biner on the same
piece. If you climb with twins and clip every piece with both ropes, the
path lengths are the same and hence both ropes being "identical" will not
stretch differently etc.
It's a convoluted theory, but if I'm climbing with doubles and end up
clipping both ropes to one piece, I'll use two biners- why not. But, if I'm
using twins, I'll always clip both ropes to a single biner.
e
Mike
lines are. Double ropes are almost as thin and light as a twin setup, but
you get the huge advantage of lower rope drag with more edge cut resistance
since the ropes will running separately. If you really want to clip through
same pro everytime, why not lead on a 9.4 mm X 60 m single and carry a 6 mm
rap line in your pack for full length raps? Less mess rope management at
belay's too. Also cheaper to buy.
<bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu> wrote in message
news:9oqdb7$8g8$4...@usenet.Stanford.EDU...
Nate
; wrote in message:
>- - Anyway, I'd like to hear what other people think. I'd probably
>only ever be brave enough to do this in the context of low
>angle ice and snow, but maybe forth class rock.
Are you asking about how to use two ropes, or how to simul-climb?
If you're good enough to be out simul-climbing, then the above terrain
should be trivial to you. In fact, 5.8 or 5.9 should also be trivial to
you, IMO. If this is the case - then I recommend option 4 - fold a single
strand in half and go for it. A pair of full length ropes will be a
nightmare on the terrain typically simuled. If I'm using a thicker rope, I
still shorten it considerably before taking off.
Basically, simul-climbing is high risk. You should learn how to operate a
rope long before attempting it.
- Nate
Mark Heyman
> I use double
> ropes in twin configuration almost exclusively, ie. treat
> the 2 ropes as one. Someone here once suggested there is a
> potential problem with the 2 lead ropes rubbing against one
> another in a fall where both ropes are clipped to once piece
> through one biner. Their solution was to use 2 pieces or two
> draws (or biners). Personally I thought that concern was
> laughable, but ceding there is always something new to be
> learned, I asked the question of two mfg. test people I
> know, who are also very experienced ice and mountain
> climbers. Neither had ever hard of a problem with my method
> (both ropes through same biner on one piece) and neither had
> a problem using the technique themselves. Your results may
> vary (mountain climbing is DANGEROUS!).
>
>
> DMT
In general the rule is if you are going to use twin rope technique clipping
both ropes to a single biner, then always do it (on that pitch). The danger
in using half rope technique or single rope clips, and then clipping both
ropes through one biner is that during a fall, one rope may be stationary in
the biner, while the other is pulled through the biner, across one point in
the stationary rope with sufficient tension to abrade the stationary rope at
that point.
Dawns FAQ has some stuff as does Blue Water and Beal's site. Nothing I saw
right off hand went into detail of why, they just say do it right.
Mark Heyman
Milkdud
if you really want to clip through same pro everytime, why not lead on
a 9.4 mm X 60 m single and carry a 6 mm rap line in your pack for full
length raps?
I may be reading this wrong, but the query sounds like alpine..in
which a single 9.4 is scary at best.
Option 3 can be done with a single 60m alpine line doubled over for
shorter sections. It addresses the weight/safety concerns, you carry
less hardware, but you move slower in general.
You didn't ask, but IMO, the Sterling Marathon 8.8's are very nice and
durable.
Cheers, -M
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <9oqhiu$egcu9$1...@ID-82914.news.dfncis.de>,
Nate <na...@nospam.com> wrote:
>
>; wrote in message:
>
>>- - Anyway, I'd like to hear what other people think. I'd probably
>>only ever be brave enough to do this in the context of low
>>angle ice and snow, but maybe forth class rock.
>
>Are you asking about how to use two ropes, or how to simul-climb?
- - I'm asking about how to simul-climb with two ropes.
>
>If you're good enough to be out simul-climbing, then the above terrain
>should be trivial to you.
- - Well, I'm a cautious bastard. I'm thinking of situations where
the terrain is trivial, but with the potential for a really long
fall.
> In fact, 5.8 or 5.9 should also be trivial to
>you, IMO.
- - I'm not thinking of the typical rock climb, but
more of a mountaineering situation. Say a 3rd -4th
class gully with a long painful fall if you miss.
Or a maybe a moderately sloped snowfield with no
chance of self-arrest if you trip. Terrain that
I would solo for a 100ft, but not for a 1000.
> If this is the case - then I recommend option 4 - fold a single
>strand in half and go for it. A pair of full length ropes will be a
>nightmare on the terrain typically simuled. If I'm using a thicker rope, I
>still shorten it considerably before taking off.
>
>Basically, simul-climbing is high risk.
- - Well, I've simul-climbed with a single rope on
5-easy terrain. I'm trying to figure out how it
works with double ropes.
> You should learn how to operate a
>rope long before attempting it.
>
- - I'm trying to find a balance between risk and speed
that I'm confortable with. 20 years ago I would just
solo such terrain, but I was immortal then...
- - Booker C. Bense
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQCVAwUBO7HuewD83u1ILnWNAQGEygP/esiO0Jw97RQWiCgUq29cWpb6diryT09A
fVVf5M5Oeqoc2Lxb7qM5XjgKw8kTo/Zai051K91pm441eoA/0bYZY2AzPA1vH6Zz
Kvy33eCkzo93Omt93i16+uBaQQUKMZR9fNlm1C3W4GufiXg23Va7qPLXnfZzMbB5
A0KdwfIcneI=
=RyET
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
Crotch Robbins
Try one rope doubled over in twin mode. I find 60m to be too long
when simulclimbing. Communication is difficult at this distance and
rope drag can be a pain around gendarmes. 30m seems to be about
right.
Crotch
Frank Stock
> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>
<Snipped stuff>
> - - I'm not thinking of the typical rock climb, but
> more of a mountaineering situation. Say a 3rd -4th
> class gully with a long painful fall if you miss.
> Or a maybe a moderately sloped snowfield with no
> chance of self-arrest if you trip. Terrain that
> I would solo for a 100ft, but not for a 1000.
Interesting. I don't think I've ever looked at something and made a
differentiation between 100 feet and 1000. Always looks like
different speeds of dead to me. Glad to hear the feeling of
immortallity has left you though.
> > If this is the case - then I recommend option 4 - fold a single
> >strand in half and go for it. A pair of full length ropes will be a
> >nightmare on the terrain typically simuled. If I'm using a thicker rope, I
> >still shorten it considerably before taking off.
> >
> >Basically, simul-climbing is high risk.
>
> - - Well, I've simul-climbed with a single rope on
> 5-easy terrain. I'm trying to figure out how it
> works with double ropes.
With half ropes, in a gully filled with choss, boulders etc., it will
work like shit with full lengths out, especially if they are 60's. If
you've been climbing 20 years you can recognize that with that much
rope out, especially with skinny ropes, the snag potential is going to
be pretty high in low angle stuff whether they are clipped as half's
or twins. Us em like half's and you are going to hang up twice as
much and be putting up with all sorts of shit, if you don't pull off a
rock and kill your belayer first.
If you are only carrying half ropes so you can use them to climb
steeper 5th class, coil one up, throw the other in the pack or coil
on your back, and climb with the remaining doubled as a twin rope.
Cheers,
Frank
sportherz
> - - I'm not thinking of the typical rock climb, but
> more of a mountaineering situation. Say a 3rd -4th
> class gully with a long painful fall if you miss.
> Or a maybe a moderately sloped snowfield with no
> chance of self-arrest if you trip. Terrain that
> I would solo for a 100ft, but not for a 1000.
I think there are some important things (independent of rope
diameters) to consider when you simul climb.
In the situation you describe "moderately sloped snow gully", the
question arises how you would protect at all? When I am simul climbing
(and that is really rare, I prefer to solo or belay) I make sure that
there is an excellent piece of protection in between climbers, e.g. on
a ridge you could put the rope around big pieces of rock so that both
partners are essentially on different sides (this works only if the
terrain is horizontal). Some other occasions were I would simul-climb
is when you do some long ice gully and one of you is much stronger
than the other. I then leadclimb, when I am at the end of the rope i
put a screw, and attach a ropeman to it. I then take a small loof of
the rope in one hand and ask the person to start climbing with me.
When he gets to the screw, I first put another screw in again with a
ropeman, then he takes the screw out....
I do similar stuff on easy rock climbs, but usually then with a
shorter rope (you coil the rope from both ends around the climbers,
tie it off and short tie..).
Even though I generally like double ropes I think for this particular
occasion they are not very favorable, since handling is kind of
complicated...
If you have to use a double rope, you would have to use similiar
reasoning as in normal climbing situations...
hope this helps,
sportherz
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <102578e3.0109...@posting.google.com>,
Frank Stock <fts...@msn.com> wrote:
><bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu> ; wrote in message
>news:<9osqps$fv1$2...@usenet.Stanford.EDU>...
>> -----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
>>
>
><Snipped stuff>
>
>> - - I'm not thinking of the typical rock climb, but
>> more of a mountaineering situation. Say a 3rd -4th
>> class gully with a long painful fall if you miss.
>> Or a maybe a moderately sloped snowfield with no
>> chance of self-arrest if you trip. Terrain that
>> I would solo for a 100ft, but not for a 1000.
>
>Interesting. I don't think I've ever looked at something and made a
>differentiation between 100 feet and 1000.
- - I've always approached soloing easy ground[1] this way.
If you pull the trigger enough times it goes bang.
You're pulling it 10 times more often in a 1000ft
than a 100. Plus fatigue both mental and physical
comes into the picture.
> Always looks like
>different speeds of dead to me. Glad to hear the feeling of
>immortallity has left you though.
>
>
>With half ropes, in a gully filled with choss, boulders etc., it will
>work like shit with full lengths out, especially if they are 60's. If
>you've been climbing 20 years[2] you can recognize that with that much
>rope out, especially with skinny ropes, the snag potential is going to
>be pretty high in low angle stuff whether they are clipped as half's
>or twins. Us em like half's and you are going to hang up twice as
>much and be putting up with all sorts of shit, if you don't pull off a
>rock and kill your belayer first.
>
>If you are only carrying half ropes so you can use them to climb
>steeper 5th class, coil one up, throw the other in the pack or coil
>on your back, and climb with the remaining doubled as a twin rope.
>
- - So the concensus seems to be use one rope as a short
twin. Makes sense to me.
- - Booker C. Bense
[1]- I've never soloed hard ground.
[2]- I was climbing 20 years ago, but I haven't been climbing
for 20 years. I stopped doing it in '85 when I got really
into windsurfing. I picked it back up again in '99. I'll
probably give it up again once I get over turning 40 and
just accept the fact the person I was when I was 25 would
despise the person I am today.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQCVAwUBO7KIAAD83u1ILnWNAQHBsAP6AqnC8kGiPANKbyhNbW6tSVLny6wMJ6nu
PnZq/vwVrNlJjXMQ1ZDzTV3N5GkFW9THUEQD845W/6120wCEaOjd1MWh+7mj0OES
plynDi4752QkZCC9EOJ3CWEDzPRC/urKzzEgKxOvljdpk/k8L1KM4DWTp5S1xI3p
PhE4e0QztSw=
=plko
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
N42461
>[2]- I was climbing 20 years ago, but I haven't been climbing
> for 20 years. I stopped doing it in '85 when I got really
> into windsurfing. I picked it back up again in '99. I'll
> probably give it up again once I get over turning 40 and
> just accept the fact the person I was when I was 25 would
> despise the person I am today.
>
Or you might find you like the person you are today, keep climbing and not give
a damn what any 20 somethings think.
Funny, but I climb alot better now at 40 than I did when I was 25. I still
suck, but I am less competitive and self-critical. I feel a lot more at ease in
dodgy situations than when I was young. I have more money for gear. The only
real drawback is that I don't recover/heal as fast.
I wonder how I would do windsurfing now.....I REALLY had no talent for that....
nathan sweet
Dingus Milktoast
>
>
> - - So the concensus seems to be use one rope as a short
> twin. Makes sense to me.
No offense Booker, but the consensus is crap. A single short
rope will work best in some situations. In others doubles
will be the better bet. Sometimes simul climbing with a
short rope is best. But what happens when the leader can't
find any pro at all betwixt the two climbers? Won't be so
fond of that short rope then, eh? And what of the bulk and
utility of a 200' 8.8? What are you gonna use that expensive
sucker for, other than the odd route or two? How fast will
that skinny shit wear out? What happens after you drag it
over sharp rocks in that gully? What happens when rock fall
hits it on your first outing? What if there are multiple
full length raps involved? Do you like rapping on 6 mil
clotheslines? I don't.
I find the notion of a single 200' 8.8 or 9.1 cord to be
wildly expensive and far too specialized, for me. I picked
up my 165' doubles for less than $200 combined and they
serve in far more situations that this doubled up strategy.
Now I'm not saying those other folks are wrong. I'm saying
their strategies will not be as effective for me, my
climbing and my pocket book. And I've simul climbed A LOT.
With singles. With doubled up singles. With doubles. With
200' between the climbers. With 100' between the climbers.
With pro. Without pro. Dozens and dozens of pitches.
Perhaps, um... 30 or more pitches in the past 3 months for
example.
The answer is... it depends.
DMT
maohai huang
: I use double
: ropes in twin configuration almost exclusively,
Doing this or double a single rope will increase the maximum
impact force on the top pro (and on the climber) by about 40%.
could be important.
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
- - 40% of what force though? What's the fall factor in a
simul-climbing fall? I'd be more worried about the rope
being cut than impact forces.
- - Booker C. Bense
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQCVAwUBO7XwDgD83u1ILnWNAQHUugP/XVcGBsPZkIHOxMLMJjWho18SkWIE3oxG
EeBhaefXF5R0Tkkz2FquLW2cAktHXgbzzF1+zzP/FwfOY0oGa0edjA0fljb43Gt2
g5P7lIc1GznFrmmX8EVdmz4pHw2AcaSiMh5JMA1RgI40kNIEmBzqBAnt2n9dqkx1
lmwOipbFLFE=
=240G
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
maohai huang
: >: ropes in twin configuration almost exclusively,
: >
: >Doing this or double a single rope will increase the maximum
: >impact force on the top pro (and on the climber) by about 40%.
: >could be important.
:
: - - 40% of what force though?
The force on the top pro when you fall and get caught by that piece.
: What's the fall factor in a
: simul-climbing fall? I'd be more worried about the rope
: being cut than impact forces.
gee how can you be so sure? there were certainly times when i
could not find any pro except with tiny nuts or doubtful ice/snow
placement, but not worrying about rope cut because there wasn't
anything sharp enought to cut it.
bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu
In article <9p6j4j$rkg$1...@news3.bu.edu>, maohai huang <mhu...@bu.edu> wrote:
>; (bbense+rec.cli...@telemark.stanford.edu) wrote:
>: >: ropes in twin configuration almost exclusively,
>: >
>: >Doing this or double a single rope will increase the maximum
>: >impact force on the top pro (and on the climber) by about 40%.
>: >could be important.
>:
>: - - 40% of what force though?
>
>The force on the top pro when you fall and get caught by that piece.
- -Of course, what I meant to ask was how does this force
compare to the force in a belayed situation? It would
seem like simul-climbing is a pretty dynamic belay.
1.4 times a small number is still a small number, but
I have no idea what the number actually is.
- - I suspect nobody has a good feel for what happens in
simul-climbing falls, since that's not supposed to happen.
>
>: What's the fall factor in a
>: simul-climbing fall? I'd be more worried about the rope
>: being cut than impact forces.
>
>
>gee how can you be so sure?
- - I can be damn sure what I'm worried about, what I'm not sure
about is whether I'm worried about the right things. When I
use "I" I mean I in the most personal sense. It seems to me
that a big part of simul-climbing protection is for the mind
not the body. If it keeps you calm and relaxed then it's
probably the correct thing to do.
> there were certainly times when i
>could not find any pro except with tiny nuts or doubtful ice/snow
>placement, but not worrying about rope cut because there wasn't
>anything sharp enought to cut it.
- - Well, all the places that I have been were I would concieve
of doing this are either real sharp chossy alpine gullies or
I have two excellent rope cutting tools in my hands. But
the reason I asked was to get things I haven't thought of
and I had not thought of the above, thanks.
- - Booker C. Bense
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.2
iQCVAwUBO7h53QD83u1ILnWNAQHUZwP/R23P7xwMUgZxbiFR10dfGk71eioxtj9s
HUFmLSe9oat3Owlsq+rl3TjQyBOP83NuR9pNXWpgDs+vUv4/WTR7HlHW+0YUlq2M
Qqb+wclCpe94GJ/8uPoMFH89bqfoJdLl+8YdpOmjf1aN/i8O2TYSLKf9LzYT0bjy
JXAxpUoE20g=
=ybsi
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----