How to climb 5.11/5.12 trad?
Ben Craft
If you want to lead 5.11/5.12 sport you can generally find several people at
the crag/gym to offer advice on how to do it or start training with one of
several sport climbing books available. I've looked at a few of those books
and they generally recommend blundering and previewing to get better. It
seems that trade climbers usually like to get competent at a grade and
slowly move through the grades as they get better.
So my question for you 5.11/5.12 trad climbers is that to start leading at
5.1/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades or
actually applying a sport type training regime to trad climbing?
Thanks,
Ben
Ben Craft
Here's the correction
> Here's a question for all the 5.11/5.12 trad climbers in the group.
>
> If you want to lead 5.11/5.12 sport you can generally find several people
at
> the crag/gym to offer advice on how to do it or start training with one of
> several sport climbing books available. I've looked at a few of those
books
> and they generally recommend bouldering and previewing to get better. It
> seems that trade climbers usually like to get competent at a grade and
> slowly move through the grades as they get better.
> So my question for you 5.11/5.12 trad climbers is that to start leading at
> 5.11/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades or
bill folk
"Ben Craft" <bcra...@mediaone.net> wrote in message
news:AqE_7.83880$fo5.21...@typhoon.we.rr.com...
> So my question for you 5.11/5.12 trad climbers is that to start leading at
> 5.1/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades or
> actually applying a sport type training regime to trad climbing?
Yes.
My first trad 11 was an onsight of the first 11 I tried. I had been climbing
10s pretty solidly for a year or so, and toward the end of a three week road
trip, I got on an 11 and surprised myself. I didn't do any specific
training, just climbed a lot and moved up through the grades. Now that I'm
fat and old, I have to train to get up 5.11.
Hidetaka Suzuki told me he got good at crack climbing by going to Yosemite
and TRing every 11 till he had it wired, then leading it, then moving on to
the 12s, then the 13s. This approach initially offended my trad
sensibilities, but I've come to accept the fact that I'm neither talented
nor fit enough to get up hard stuff in good style, so I may have to try this
approach. The problem for me is finding someone else interested in going to
the Valley and dogging routes into submission. Most people would rather just
go climbing, and I don't blame them. If you are talented or don't have a job
and can climb all the time, maybe you can reach that level by just climbing,
but most of us mere mortals will have to train.
Jim Herson's girlfriend Ann told me that sport climbing was what really
boosted their trad abilities. 11-12 cracks are a lot easier if you have the
strength and technique to climb sport 13.
Hope this helps.
Bill
Lord Slime
> > 5.1/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades or
> > actually applying a sport type training regime to trad climbing?
> Yes.
I'd say "yes and yes". For Trad leading (onsighting) you need to train
both your mind and body. This is not to say that sport climbing doesn't
require mental abilities, it does, but trad leading requires different mental
abilities that you will never develop sport climbing.
> My first trad 11 was an onsight of the first 11 I tried. I had been climbing
> 10s pretty solidly for a year or so, and toward the end of a three week road
> trip, I got on an 11 and surprised myself. I didn't do any specific
> training, just climbed a lot and moved up through the grades. Now that I'm
> fat and old, I have to train to get up 5.11.
Hell, when I was thin and young I still had to train to climb 11s! But Bill's
right overall. Lead a lot of 9s & 10s, do specific training to get better, and
go on a trad road-trip. I recommend Devils Tower for this, since the routes
stress endurance, almost always have good pro, and there are pure crack
routes of every size.
> Hidetaka Suzuki told me he got good at crack climbing by going to Yosemite
> and TRing every 11 till he had it wired, then leading it, then moving on,,,
> This approach initially offended my trad sensibilities...
Mine too, and I don't believe this is the most efficient way to
learn to lead hard cracks. In order to climb hard multi-pitch routes
in good style you must be able to *onsight* the grade of the climb. You
can't TR to get the pitches wired first (under most circumstances). So
you should practice onsight climbing all the time! This, in my opinion, is
the most difficult challenge.
> Jim Herson's girlfriend Ann told me that sport climbing was what really
> boosted their trad abilities. 11-12 cracks are a lot easier if you have the
> strength and technique to climb sport 13.
I disagree. In general person who has only a sport climbing
background will not be able to lead trad 11, or even 5.10. I know
several 12/13 sport climbers who freak on 5.8 trad, and anecdotes
about this type of thing abound. Strength helps, but the mental aspects
dominate.
- Lord Slime
Andy Gale
Lord Slime wrote:
> "bill folk" <wf...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>>Jim Herson's girlfriend Ann told me that sport climbing was what really
>>boosted their trad abilities. 11-12 cracks are a lot easier if you have the
>>strength and technique to climb sport 13.
>>
>
> I disagree. In general person who has only a sport climbing
> background will not be able to lead trad 11, or even 5.10.
Well, he never said ONLY a sport climbing background. Suppose you do a
lot of trad climbing and you mix in sport climbing training to get
stronger. IMO that helps your trad climbing abilities. Sport climbing
is more efficient for strength training. Keep in mind that this is
exactly what gym climbing is (sport climbing) and it is pretty clear
that training in the gym can help one's trad climbing ability. (in
conjunction with a healthy dose of actual trad climbing to keep the
mental aspects in tune)
I know
> several 12/13 sport climbers who freak on 5.8 trad, and anecdotes
> about this type of thing abound. Strength helps, but the mental aspects
> dominate.
Then there is the anecdote of Sharma's first trad climb. Day one he
rapped in and TR'd the top (crux) pitch of the Rostrum (I forget the
name of the route, but it is 12d). The next day he started at the
bottom and led the whole route, including the top, 12d pitch. The day
after that he went back and led the 13b variation of the top pitch. I'm
guessing that his strength,developed by sport climbing and bouldering,
had something to do with this.
Sure, Sharma is unique. But any anecdote is just that, one single
example.
Andy
john r baker
Lord Slime wrote:
> "bill folk" <wf...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
>
> > Hidetaka Suzuki told me he got good at crack climbing by going to Yosemite
> > and TRing every 11 till he had it wired, then leading it, then moving on,,,
> > This approach initially offended my trad sensibilities...
You can't use Suzuki as an example for normal humans to follow !
> > Jim Herson's girlfriend Ann told me that sport climbing was what really
> > boosted their trad abilities. 11-12 cracks are a lot easier if you have the
> > strength and technique to climb sport 13.
>
> I disagree. In general person who has only a sport climbing
> background will not be able to lead trad 11, or even 5.10. I know
> several 12/13 sport climbers who freak on 5.8 trad, and anecdotes
> about this type of thing abound. Strength helps, but the mental aspects
> dominate.
Your points are good. Yes, one should have a solid trad
base (measured in years) before trying hard trad routes.
Yes, some climbers freak out on trad.
But Ann's statement still contains a kernel of truth.
If you build the endurance to do 5.13 sport climbs, it pays off in having
more time to fiddle with gear on 5.11/12 trad. Or even do the sequence
wrong but have the strength to do it anyway.
And some climbers don't freak as easily as others. I know several
guys who started as sportos, but can lead very hard trad if they want
to. They just have naturally fearless personalities. I just hope they
survive !
jb
bill folk
"Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> wrote in message
news:xRF_7.42$V3.170...@news.frii.net...
> "bill folk" <wf...@pacbell.net> wrote in message
> > Hidetaka Suzuki told me he got good at crack climbing by going to
Yosemite
> > and TRing every 11 till he had it wired, then leading it, then moving
on,,,
> > This approach initially offended my trad sensibilities...
>
> Mine too, and I don't believe this is the most efficient way to
> learn to lead hard cracks. In order to climb hard multi-pitch routes
> in good style you must be able to *onsight* the grade of the climb.
Right. I guess the theory is that if you can redpoint x, then you should be
able to onsight x-y. So the approach is improving your onsight ability by
attacking the redpoint side of the equation. Onsighting is key, but I think
dogging harder routes could also be useful. It worked for him, anyway,
although I don't know how strong he is at onsighting.
> > Jim Herson's girlfriend Ann told me that sport climbing was what really
> > boosted their trad abilities. 11-12 cracks are a lot easier if you have
the
> > strength and technique to climb sport 13.
>
> I disagree. In general person who has only a sport climbing
> background will not be able to lead trad 11, or even 5.10.
Agreed. I believe Jim and Ann were "tradding" in the solid 11 range when
they took up sport climbing. Ann felt that the strength and technique gained
from sport got them over a plateau into harder trad. When someone who has
climbed Rostroman, Crucifix, etc, and whose partner holds or held speed
records on Halfdome RR, Salathé, and the Nose gives me advice about
improving my trad climbing, I listen. But yes, sport climbing alone isn't
going to get most people up hard trad climbs.
For someone like me (and, I suspect, Ben) who almost never sport climbs or
works routes, I think the above approaches could be part of a balanced plan
to improve. A sport climber looking to improve their trad climbing would
find them less useful. But yeah, lots of onsighting trad routes is the most
important part of the equation.
Bill
rkelman
leading at
> 5.11/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades »
I don't believe it is a simple matter. I've been climbing for decades and
still find that thin, overhanging 5.12 finger cracks with scanty protection
are difficult.
cheers,
rob.calm
Nate
rkelman wrote in message ...
>I don't believe it is a simple matter. I've been climbing for decades and
>still find that thin, overhanging 5.12 finger cracks with scanty
protection
>are difficult.
Yeah - I eventually got over those. It's the steep 5.13c kitty litter with
a little verglass that vexes me from time to time.
- Nate
PFW
or something like that) was almost entirely protected by fixed pitons,
even though the route could have been easily protected by clean gear
(.75 Camalots according to the person who removed them). While Sharma
is clearly at the end of the bell curve if not unique, his "trad"
climb has a different ring to in light of the fixed pins.
Andy Gale <ag...@scripps.edu> wrote in message
Steelmnkey
>
>I disagree. In general person who has only a sport climbing
>background will not be able to lead trad 11, or even 5.10. I know
>several 12/13 sport climbers who freak on 5.8 trad, and anecdotes
>about this type of thing abound. Strength helps, but the mental aspects
>dominate.
Obviously this is basically a given, but I can't help but mention in the recent
book "50 Favorite Climbs", there's a section where Chris Sharma talks about
leading the Alien finish to the Rostrum (5.12b). Don't know whether this was
just a load of hooey, but obviously having abnormally strong fingers doesn't
hurt a bit.
I tend to doubt the veracity of the claim that the north face of the Rostrum is
Sharma's favorite climb, however. Maybe his favorite trad climb.
G.
Steelmnkey
>
>Then there is the anecdote of Sharma's first trad climb. Day one he
>rapped in and TR'd the top (crux) pitch of the Rostrum (I forget the
>name of the route, but it is 12d). The next day he started at the
>bottom and led the whole route, including the top, 12d pitch. The day
>after that he went back and led the 13b variation of the top pitch. I'm
>guessing that his strength,developed by sport climbing and bouldering,
>had something to do with this.
Ooops...I sent my original reply before reading this.
Fifty Favorite Climbs says Alien finish is 12b.
Yosemite Free Climbs seems to confirm that grade.
Still mighty impressive.He must have been high.
G.
Andy Gale
Steelmnkey wrote:
>>Andy Gale ag...@scripps.edu wrote:
>>
>>Then there is the anecdote of Sharma's first trad climb. Day one he
>>rapped in and TR'd the top (crux) pitch of the Rostrum (I forget the
>>name of the route, but it is 12d). The next day he started at the
>>bottom and led the whole route, including the top, 12d pitch. The day
>>after that he went back and led the 13b variation of the top pitch.
> Ooops...I sent my original reply before reading this.
>
> Fifty Favorite Climbs says Alien finish is 12b.
> Yosemite Free Climbs seems to confirm that grade.
> Still mighty impressive.He must have been high.
Oops. My bad. I was going on memory as I don't have the book in front
of me.
Andy
Mad Dog
That overhanging shit is for pussies. The last time I bounced down a runout 12d
slab in North Carolina, I looked at the raspberries, compound fractures, spinal
corruptions, abrasions and contusions and said: "That's it! I'm taking two days
off this time."
Shilajit T Gangulee
: That overhanging shit is for pussies. The last time I bounced down a runout 12d
: slab in North Carolina, I looked at the raspberries, compound fractures, spinal
: corruptions, abrasions and contusions and said: "That's it! I'm taking two days
: off this time."
Where's a 12d slab in NC? I've only done a couple of whitesides
routes, and i don't recall a 12d slab there. I can't think of one at
looking glass, stone, rumbling bald either. So linville? I was just
arguing with a friend about hard, runout climbs in NC outside of
whitesides, so i'd like more info.
Nate
"Shilajit T Gangulee"
> Where's a 12d slab in NC?
Why don't you ask Bill. I think it's stuck in his ass.
- Nate
Michael Creel
Speaking as an ex 11 (not 11 X) trad leader , I'd say it's mostly the first
and some of the second. You need extra endurance to fiddle with gear and a
cool head to decide when to climb above pro that you won't get from sport
climbing, but sport climbing makes you develop rythm and some finesse with
odd moves that can help. Backstepping, Egyptians, figure 4, etc. were not
widely known techniques before the sportclimbing boom. Of course,
bouldering is just as good a way to learn finesse as is sport climbing.
Michael
Chris Clarke
I would recommend a simple strategy. Pick a couple of 5.11 routes
with good protection and jump on them. See how it goes. I recall
that there are a fair number of easy 5.11 trad routes at Owens River
Gorge that take bomber gear and offer fun climbing. Also, they'll
probably not have anybody climbing them! At Joshua Tree, I think that
Wangerbanger has great gear and I'm sure you can find many others. I
can't remember too many pure trad routes with bomber gear in the easy
to mid 11 range at Josh but it's been a long time since I was there.
Rubicon isn't 11 but it's really fun anyway. I found most of the 11s
that I did in the Valley to be pretty burly.
Anyway, I doubt that there's any better way to develop skills for
onsighting hard trad than trying it on routes that shouldn't kill you
if you fail. If you want to redpoint hard routes for fun, top rope
practice will get you there in a hurry.
-Chris
Lord Slime
> Ben Craft wrote:
> > So my question for you 5.11/5.12 trad climbers is that to start leading at
> > 5.1/5.12 is it a simple matter of time moving through the lower grades or
> > actually applying a sport type training regime to trad climbing?
> cool head to decide when to climb above pro that you won't get from sport
Michael, you are my sacrificial goat. An 11/12 trad leader does not
"fiddle" with gear. They place gear rapidly and get it right the first
time. There isn't a pure sport climber in the world who can do this
in a variety of situations without years and years of practice. This
does not happen TRing cracks or clipping bolts. The other aspect
of this skill is deciding, on the fly, *where* to place said gear. In your
best jam? In the middle of the crux? There's a hell of a lot that goes
into a safe trad lead that has no corollary in sport climbing.
> but sport climbing makes you develop rythm and some finesse with
> odd moves that can help. Backstepping, Egyptians, figure 4, etc. were not
> widely known techniques before the sportclimbing boom.
Bullshit. Backstepping isn't all that useful on vertical or less-than-vertical
rock or where you must jam your feet in a crack to keep them on.
And exactly what is an Egyptian and why would I want to use it on a
crack climb? And could we see a show of hands for the number of
people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
- Lord Slime
john r baker
Lord Slime wrote:
John, I agree with the thrust of your argument and yet
the situation is complex enough that I must say I've seen
counter-examples to almost every point...
I don't do much trad these days. Last time I went out to
do trad routes was a day of 10s and 11s. Some I had done
a long time ago, some were on-sight. The day was an eye-
opener for me. In every case, I found that my much-improved
endurance (sport-training) and increased awareness of my
center of gravity gave my time to: fiddle (my eye for gear
selection isn't what it was), worry, try a wrong sequence,
etc. My resting strategies were better. I hardly got pumped.
It was kind of exciting actually. I haven't led a trad 12 in
many years, but now I'm considering it again.
> does not happen TRing cracks or clipping bolts. The other aspect
> of this skill is deciding, on the fly, *where* to place said gear.
You can always skip the placement. One of my buddies does it
on the rare occasions when he leads hard trad. It's terrifying to watch,
but he makes it work.
> In your
> best jam? In the middle of the crux? There's a hell of a lot that goes
> into a safe trad lead that has no corollary in sport climbing.
Oh ! A *safe* trad lead ! Well, that changes things.
> Backstepping isn't all that useful on vertical or less-than-vertical
It isn't ? I better stop it then. Maybe my definition of
backstepping differs from yours.
> And could we see a show of hands for the number of
> people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
On a trad route ? No. On a sport climb ? Well ...my partner told me
to use one on Disfigured Foreigner (get it -- disFIGUREd FOUReigner).
She claimed it was essential. I didn't like the feel of it though, so I
unwrapped and did the move another way.
jb
Lord Slime
> Lord Slime wrote:
> I don't do much trad these days. Last time I went out to
> do trad routes was a day of 10s and 11s. Some I had done
> a long time ago, some were on-sight. The day was an eye-
> opener for me. In every case, I found that my much-improved
> endurance (sport-training) and increased awareness of my
> center of gravity gave my time to: fiddle (my eye for gear
> selection isn't what it was), worry, try a wrong sequence,
> etc. My resting strategies were better. I hardly got pumped.
I won't argue that sport climbing will help you become a better
trad climber. My point, pertainent to the thread, is that someone who
can now lead 5.10 trad, and is striving to lead 11/12 trad, is not going
to benefit as much from more sport climbing as doing more trad climbing.
In other words, improve your worst weakness and you'll see large
improvements in your performance. In general, it isn't lack of strength
that is preventing improvement but the lack of specific crack technique
and gear/leading skills.
In your case, you were strong enough to hang out and fiddle with the
pro. Wouldn't you agree that better advice would be to learn to place
gear more efficiently, instead of hanging out?
> > does not happen TRing cracks or clipping bolts. The other aspect
> > of this skill is deciding, on the fly, *where* to place said gear.
> You can always skip the placement. One of my buddies does it
> on the rare occasions when he leads hard trad. It's terrifying to watch,
> but he makes it work.
John, I MUST disagree. You can skip particular placements, but you
can not say "you can *always* skip the placement". That is bad advice.
> > There's a hell of a lot that goes
> > into a safe trad lead that has no corollary in sport climbing.
> Oh ! A *safe* trad lead ! Well, that changes things.
You know as well as I that there are many, many safe trad leads in the
11/12 range, assuming you don't always skip the placements!
> > Backstepping isn't all that useful on vertical or less-than-vertical
> It isn't ? I better stop it then. Maybe my definition of
> backstepping differs from yours.
You took this out of context. I backstepped in the early 80's, just not
very much, because it really isn't that useful for crack climbs where
your feet are in the crack. Not putting your feet in the crack is the
most consistant mistake I've seen sport climbers make; over and
over and over again, by almost every single one of them.
> > And could we see a show of hands for the number of
> > people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
> On a trad route ? No. On a sport climb ? Well ...my partner told me
> to use one on Disfigured Foreigner (get it -- disFIGUREd FOUReigner).
> She claimed it was essential. I didn't like the feel of it though, so I
> unwrapped and did the move another way.
I rest my case.
- Lord Slime
Jay Tanzman
Lord Slime wrote:
> You took this out of context. I backstepped in the early 80's, just not
> very much, because it really isn't that useful for crack climbs where
> your feet are in the crack. Not putting your feet in the crack is the
> most consistant mistake I've seen sport climbers make; over and
> over and over again, by almost every single one of them.
Mistake?
-Jay, who found a bomber drop-knee the other day in lieu of a supposedly perfect handcrack
Mad Dog
>And could we see a show of hands for the number of
>people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
I used one to turn a big-assed roof once, just to demonstrate it for one of my
partners. Messed up tendons in my wrist and elbow for about 2 months (this must
be a skinny person move?).
Note that you didn't say "HAD to use one on a real rock climb".
john r baker
Lord Slime wrote:
>
> I won't argue that sport climbing will help you become a better
> trad climber.
Okay.
> My point, pertainent to the thread, is that someone who
> can now lead 5.10 trad, and is striving to lead 11/12 trad, is not going
> to benefit as much from more sport climbing as doing more trad climbing.
And I guess my point is: a 50/50 mix *might* be even better. Do I
know for sure ? No. But my experience is telling me it's worth
considering.
Like I said, I don't really disagree with what you are saying. It
just seemed to me that you were cutting the lines of the argument
a bit too cleanly. So I was thinking "Well yeah, but...".
BTW congrats on the retirement. I gotta do that soon.
jb
Dave Buchanan
> And could we see a show of hands for the number of
> people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
Dan Osman on Slayer (13d) at Cave Rock - Lake Tahoe Ca
(Masters Of Stone)
Not a trad climb, but pretty cool nonetheless.
Hardman Knott
N42461
>And could we see a show of hands for the number of
>people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
Does bouldering count?
nathan sweet
Michael Creel
Lord Slime wrote:
> "Michael Creel" <michae...@uab.es> wrote in message
>> ...You need extra endurance to fiddle with gear and a
>> cool head to decide when to climb above pro that you won't get from sport
>> climbing,...
>
> Michael, you are my sacrificial goat. An 11/12 trad leader does not
> "fiddle" with gear. They place gear rapidly and get it right the first
Baaah, in both senses of the word. I didn't see Peter Croft lead Excellent
Adventure, but I doubt that he just slammed the gear in. Some of the
gritstone headpoints are another example. I once did an 11b or so very thin
crack over near Royal Arches, the name of which escapes me. I took my time
placing the RP's and thin nuts, since I thought that the thinness of the
wires and the quality of the placements required it. You're right about
plugging friends into good cracks or dropping nuts into the 11/12
version of Reeds Direct, but it is a fact that some routes are simply hard
to protect well.
>
> > but sport climbing makes you develop rythm and some finesse with
>> odd moves that can help. Backstepping, Egyptians, figure 4, etc. were not
>> widely known techniques before the sportclimbing boom.
>
> Bullshit. Backstepping isn't all that useful on vertical or
> less-than-vertical rock or where you must jam your feet in a crack to keep
> them on.
Not all routes are less than vertical cracks. The issue is not whether
backstepping is always useful, it's whether it's ever useful.
>And exactly what is an Egyptian and why would I want to use it on a
> crack climb? And could we see a show of hands for the number of
> people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
If you don't know what an Egyptian is, go to the Pie Shop at Lake Tahoe,
and do the route "Walk Like an Egyptian". Or maybe the question is worth a
thread of its own. When I mentioned figure 4's and the other tricks I was
just pointing out that some techniques were either developed or at least
became much more widely known after the advent of spo' climbin'. They're
probably easier to learn and master on sport routes, since more
opportunities to learn them present themselve on overhanging faces, but
they are occasionally useful on trad routes.
I once tried a figure 4 just to see what it was. My bicep almost did the
John Gill maneuver.
Michael
Lord Slime
> Lord Slime wrote:
> > "Michael Creel" <michae...@uab.es> wrote in message
> >> ...You need extra endurance to fiddle with gear and a
> >> cool head to decide when to climb above pro that you won't get from sport
> >> climbing,...
> > Michael, you are my sacrificial goat. An 11/12 trad leader does not
> > "fiddle" with gear. They place gear rapidly and get it right the first
> Baaah, in both senses of the word. I didn't see Peter Croft lead Excellent
> Adventure, but I doubt that he just slammed the gear in.
You could be wrong? So why did you bother to bring this up?
> Some of the
> gritstone headpoints are another example.
Another example of what? Obfuscation, apparently.
> I once did an 11b or so very thin
> crack over near Royal Arches, the name of which escapes me. I took my time
> placing the RP's and thin nuts, since I thought that the thinness of the
> wires and the quality of the placements required it. You're right about
> plugging friends into good cracks or dropping nuts into the 11/12
> version of Reeds Direct, but it is a fact that some routes are simply hard
> to protect well.
And what the hell is your point? Sure, *some* climbs (at every grade) are
hard to protect, but a good trad leader doesn't "fiddle" with the gear even
on those climbs. There's many strategies one can use instead of hanging
out at one spot (usually strenuous) and trying a half-dozen pieces before
you blow out!
Remember that the original point of argument was that you said you "need
more endurance" to "fiddle with gear" and I said that developing better
leading skills is a better solution. Also, if you follow my advice and do lots
of crack routes, you will develop better crack climbing skills and specific
strengths that won't develop on a sport climb.
> > > but sport climbing makes you develop rythm and some finesse with
> >> odd moves that can help. Backstepping, Egyptians, figure 4, etc. were not
> >> widely known techniques before the sportclimbing boom.
> > Bullshit. Backstepping isn't all that useful on vertical or
> > less-than-vertical rock or where you must jam your feet in a crack to keep
> > them on.
>
> Not all routes are less than vertical cracks. The issue is not whether
> backstepping is always useful, it's whether it's ever useful.
NO Michael, the issue is, if you read what you wrote, is that backstepping
(for example) was "not widely known" before sport climbing. Bullshit.
I used backsteps in the early 80's and I was just a novice climber at the
time. And most of the routes were crack routes, where your hands and
feet are in the crack. So backstepping was widely know, but it wasn't
widely USED.
> >And exactly what is an Egyptian and why would I want to use it on a
> > crack climb? And could we see a show of hands for the number of
> > people who have actually used a Figure-4 on a real rock climb?
>
> If you don't know what an Egyptian is, go to the Pie Shop at Lake Tahoe,
> and do the route "Walk Like an Egyptian". Or maybe the question is worth a
> thread of its own.
It's not. I assume you mean a drop-knee/twist-lock. Somehow, I've
missed all the people doing these on Valley crack routes and at Indian
Creek.
> When I mentioned figure 4's and the other tricks I was
> just pointing out that some techniques were either developed or at least
> became much more widely known after the advent of spo' climbin'. They're
> probably easier to learn and master on sport routes, since more
> opportunities to learn them present themselve on overhanging faces, but
> they are occasionally useful on trad routes.
Yes, *occasionally* I've used them on trad routes. So what? This does in
no way validate your contention that sport climbing is the best way to
prepare for hard trad routes.
> I once tried a figure 4 just to see what it was. My bicep almost did the
> John Gill maneuver.
Yes, of course. Thus you admit it was just bullshit.
- Lord Slime
Brian in SLC
> Obviously this is basically a given, but I can't help but mention in the recent book "50 Favorite Climbs", there's a section where Chris Sharma talks about leading the Alien finish to the Rostrum (5.12b). Don't know whether this was just a load of hooey, but obviously having abnormally strong fingers doesn't
> hurt a bit.
>
> I tend to doubt the veracity of the claim that the north face of the Rostrum is Sharma's favorite climb, however. Maybe his favorite trad climb.
Note that long time trad climber Ron Kauk's favorite is a long boulder
traverse...had to be some design there, eh?
Great book. Some interesting background and selection is alluded to.
Be nice to know some of those details (like the folks who didn't want
to be included and why...). I came in late to a conversation betwixt
Chris and Tom Frost whilst waiting for both of them to sign the fifty
fav's book. Wished I'd a queried Chris about that route
selection...(hind site being what it is...!).
I'd say that some of the selection in the book was more oriented at
favorite climbs that you'd recommend to a personal friend but some of
those routes would be good "enemy" candidates! Hmmm....(maybe someone
can talk Slime into repeating a Tackle route perhaps...har har...).
Brian in SLC
Dave Condit
20 minutes about how sand-bagged the route was, my partner pointed out that we
were on the 5.11b next to our intended route.
I also found that leaving the guidebook at home & climbing routes I thought I
could do often led to climbing at my highest ability. Since trad is very
mental, just the 5.11a notation in the book may cause mental problems. I
wandered along the crag until I saw a route that looked tough but do-able.
After a couple days, I checked the guidebook to discover I had climbed a few
5.11s. Of course, this was offset my the fact that I had struggled up a few
5.8s that felt like 5.12.
Dave
Michael Creel
<snip>
>
> Yes, of course. Thus you admit it was just bullshit.
No I don't. I'll give you an example of a crack climb where good face
climbing skills will help. Drive By Shooting on the Church Wall in the
Valley. Admittedly it's a sport climb, but you do place some pieces on it
too, and if I recall correctly, you could probably do it all on gear
(possibly with a little fiddling). It's a climb where I think someone who
does both straightforward crack climbing as well as sport face routes will
have an easier time than someone who does only one of the two. BTW, not all
trad routes are crack climbs. How do you classify the DNB, for example? To
wrap up my contribution, YMMV. Happy New Year.
> - Lord Slime
Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
> any anecdote is just that, one single example.
I agree! In marketing, there is a saying:
"The plural of anecdote is not data."
Several, or even dozens, of anecdotes do not constitute evidence
supporting or refuting a premise. Anecdotes are useful for
illustrating a premise.
With respect to the original subject, there are many ways to become a
solid 5.11 or 5.12 trad leader. The most important thing is to find
the way that's harmonious with the climber's style and ethics.
Christian :?
> With respect to the original subject, there are many ways to become a
> solid 5.11 or 5.12 trad leader. The most important thing is to find
> the way that's harmonious with the climber's style and ethics.
>
> http://www.braithwaite-lee.com/
You know this? With 3 whole trad leads under your belt?
Amazed,
Christian :?)
"I got to get harmonized"
David Kastrup
Got a terminology question: if you have a single-pitch route which has
only bolts at the belay station, but copious opportunities for placing
friends and rocks in between (so that I did not actually realize the
lack of bolts until I arrived at the top, just sprinkling occasional
"reassurance" pieces as usually when bolts being more than, say, 12
feet apart are making me nervous), is it trad or still sport?
--
David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
Email: David....@t-online.de
Jay Tanzman
Reginald Braithwaite-Lee wrote:
> With respect to the original subject, there are many ways to become a
> solid 5.11 or 5.12 trad leader. The most important thing is to find
> the way that's harmonious with the climber's style and ethics.
Om....
-Jay
Dingus Milktoast
> is it trad or still sport?
It's a tort. Or sprad. I can never get it straight.
Does it matter what you call it? If I were at a sport climbing area, I'd be
tempted to call it sport crack climbing (or whatever...). At a sport area I
frequent, there are several of these kinds of climbs. One or two of them has
bolts right next to a crack. The others use bolt anchors. The cracks...
always felt like sport climbing to me, even though you have to place gear.
Is sport climbing the inevitable result of clipping top down bolted routes?
Or is it something more, including a social dynamic too? Is it the focus that
makes sport climbing (once the bolts are in that is)?
DMT
Julie
>
> Got a terminology question: if you have a single-pitch route which has
> only bolts at the belay station, but copious opportunities for placing
It's the Gunks.
JSH
Karl Baba
<David....@t-online.de> wrote:
> Got a terminology question: if you have a single-pitch route which has
> only bolts at the belay station, but copious opportunities for placing
> friends and rocks in between (so that I did not actually realize the
> lack of bolts until I arrived at the top, just sprinkling occasional
> "reassurance" pieces as usually when bolts being more than, say, 12
> feet apart are making me nervous), is it trad or still sport?
>
>
> --
> David Kastrup, Kriemhildstr. 15, 44793 Bochum
> Email: David....@t-online.de
How do you NOT notice that a climb you expect to be a sport pitch
doesn't have any bolts? If it doesn't have any bolts at all (the belay
doesn't count if you ask me) why are you asking if it is sport or trad?
Just because you thought it had bolts it might be sport?
That reminds me of stories of women who all of a sudden have a baby but
didn't realize they were pregnant! ;-)
Peace
Karl
--
Guide Guy
http://member.newsguy.com/~climbing/
David Kastrup
> In article <x5n0zhdj...@tupik.goethe.zz>, David Kastrup
> <David....@t-online.de> wrote:
>
> > Got a terminology question: if you have a single-pitch route which
> > has only bolts at the belay station, but copious opportunities for
> > placing friends and rocks in between (so that I did not actually
> > realize the lack of bolts until I arrived at the top, just
> > sprinkling occasional "reassurance" pieces as usually when bolts
> > being more than, say, 12 feet apart are making me nervous), is it
> > trad or still sport?
> >
>
> How do you NOT notice that a climb you expect to be a sport pitch
> doesn't have any bolts? If it doesn't have any bolts at all (the
> belay doesn't count if you ask me) why are you asking if it is sport
> or trad? Just because you thought it had bolts it might be sport?
Well, it was not multipitch, and just 20m or so.
> That reminds me of stories of women who all of a sudden have a baby
> but didn't realize they were pregnant! ;-)
You can get pregnant without intercourse... Perhaps you can get up a
boltless route without being "trad"? How about if the pro you place
is ridiculous? Just kidding.
This was Ith, basically a sport climbing area notorious for not
bolting where it is "not necessary". While you can get along on many
routes without additional pro, nobody climbs there without a bunch of
rocks/nuts/slings, since some routes can get pretty ugly without. The
added pro does not take up much weight: friends are mostly useless,
since the rock is, well, small-featured.
So you get used to placing a nut or sling or whatever else offers
itself when you are feeling uncomfortable.
I think I realized that this particular route ("Mad mathematician" or
so) had had no bolt whatsoever only when I was back on the ground.
Being a UIAA VI (IIRC), it was more or less supposed to be a warmup,
anyway.
So I might have missed noticing my first trad route, if the "no bolts
anywhere" criterion is decisive for a route being trad.
Daniel.D.Eubank
of the route takes pro, I would call it a trad route. If the route is
a sport route, but does not have bolts placed where features allow pro
placements, I would call it a mixed sport and trad route. At Suicide
in California, the Wailing Wall has a lot of bolted face routes, but
none of which I would call sport climbs. The bolts are sometimes 20+
feet apart and are placed at good stances after pulling crux moves.
In general, sport routes have bolts protecting you moving into cruxes.
Bolted belay anchors, especially on big walls, add to route safety
and if the rest of the route is sewn up with pro, still qualifies the
route as a trad route. Even routes that have bolt ladders to work
through blank faces are still considered trad routes.
Daniel
Christian :?
> Is sport climbing the inevitable result of clipping top down bolted routes?
> Or is it something more, including a social dynamic too? Is it the focus that
> makes sport climbing (once the bolts are in that is)?
>
> DMT
No Dingus, its all about the clothes.
Sheesh,
Christian :?)
David Kastrup
> Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net> wrote in message news:<3C430239...@midtown.net>...
>
> > Is sport climbing the inevitable result of clipping top down
> > bolted routes? Or is it something more, including a social
> > dynamic too? Is it the focus that makes sport climbing (once the
> > bolts are in that is)?
> >
>
> No Dingus, its all about the clothes.
Is a paint-stained sweatshirt over blood-stained and somewhat ripped
light cotton trousers (darn those knees) more on the sport or the trad
side?
Lord Slime
> If the route has a few bolts to protect some face moves and the rest
> of the route takes pro, I would call it a trad route. If the route is
> a sport route, but does not have bolts placed where features allow pro
> placements, I would call it a mixed sport and trad route.
...and yadda, yadda, yadda.
I said this years ago:
"A sport route is a climb which is bolted in such a manner as to allow
the climber to focus on the moves and not the consequences of a fall."
And it's still the best definition.
- Lord Slime
stinkwagen
"David Kastrup" <David....@t-online.de> wrote in message
news:x5hepn4...@tupik.goethe.zz...
> cj...@my-deja.com (Christian :?) writes:
>
> > Dingus Milktoast <crha...@midtown.net> wrote in message
news:<3C430239...@midtown.net>...
> >
> > > Is sport climbing the inevitable result of clipping top down
> > > bolted routes? Or is it something more, including a social
> > > dynamic too? Is it the focus that makes sport climbing (once the
> > > bolts are in that is)?
> > >
Isn't there a FAQ about THIS? YET? I'm sure it could start Lord Slime's
definition and end with somebody else parroting it. In between could be
this one:
http://groups.google.com/groups?q=fonda+ternes+bolts&hl=en&btnG=Google+Searc
h&meta=
[if this link doesn't work search google for "fonda ternes bolts"]
BTW to apply LS's definition to real life, you can perform this test. If
whenever you are pausing at a move, worried that you might fall, and you
compose yourself to realize that there is a bolt at your chest. Then, it is
a sport climb [I think this is basically what D Eubank wrote].
I think gear could fit into a sport climb if it's one of those where there's
only ONE piece of gear on the climb and it specifies exactly what piece in
the guidebook [and calls it "optional"].
> >
> > No Dingus, its all about the clothes.
>
> Is a paint-stained sweatshirt over blood-stained and somewhat ripped
> light cotton trousers (darn those knees) more on the sport or the trad
> side?
Trad dude! Of course those Euro fashions could be different than ours.
Sounds to me like you have been doing trad climbs for as long as you've been
climbing at Ith, if I read you correctly that the bolts are spaced far apart
(perhaps led ground up?).
So now that we see you've been tradding all this time without even knowing
it, is that a good thing or bad thing? Like finding money in your pocket
that you didn't know you had or perhaps it's like walking around all day
with a booger hanging out your nose?
Chuck
Jason Kester
news:140120020852524249%gu...@NOSPAMnewsguy.com...
>
> How do you NOT notice that a climb you expect to be a sport pitch
> doesn't have any bolts? If it doesn't have any bolts at all (the belay
> doesn't count if you ask me) why are you asking if it is sport or trad?
> Just because you thought it had bolts it might be sport?
They have one of those in Portland. Somebody tried to chop it, but couldn't
get the bolts out, so he just sabotaged most of them to the point where they
were unclipable. He skipped the first two, so it looks fine from the
ground. The guidebook shows it having bolts, so there is plenty of reason
to believe that it is a sport route when you leave the ground.
Does this count?
David Kastrup
That would mean that any route where you felt different about leading
it and following or toproping it would not qualify as a sport route.
I have had sport routes here with loose bolts, and some with fixed pro
that you basically clipped mostly because there was no point in
dragging up more draws than necessary. Do sport routes transmogrify
into trad as their protection deteriorates?
Ith is basically a sport climbing area, but leading there requires a
considerable "lead head": pro is sparse as compared to other areas,
and you often have to augment it with self-placed stuff. On routes
like "Anaconda", taking a dive on the rather continuously strenuous
main passage can easily mean a 20feet plunge or more. Not only is
there some basic ground fall potential, also taking a fall means
rather certainly that your attempt is finished for the day. It will
take considerable time before you get as far next time, and you
probably won't take the risk again if your form is such that you
failed the first time.
According to your definition, the route would not be sport. Yet it is
clearly bolted as such. It is a dare-devil sport route.
I am probably not making much sense to you. For me sport vs. trad
revolves more about the mental investments you have to spend for
placing pro. "Anaconda" may scare the shit out of you, but it does
not offer opportunity for wasting thought on pro. You have to make do
with what is there. People know there are no good placements in the
main passage, and people know that wasting any time looking for them
in that pumping passage is a sure way to fall off.
Mike Yukish
David Kastrup wrote:
> "Lord Slime" <jbyr...@SPAMfriiPLEASE.com> writes:
> > I said this years ago:
> >
> > "A sport route is a climb which is bolted in such a manner as to allow
> > the climber to focus on the moves and not the consequences of a fall."
> >
> > And it's still the best definition.
>
> That would mean that any route where you felt different about leading
> it and following or toproping it would not qualify as a sport route.
I would say that it is a route where you would feel minimally different.
Leading is leading, no? There will always be some diff.
> I have had sport routes here with loose bolts, and some with fixed pro
> that you basically clipped mostly because there was no point in
> dragging up more draws than necessary. Do sport routes transmogrify
> into trad as their protection deteriorates?
No, they would become just bolted routes. Maybe even poorly bolted.
> Ith is basically a sport climbing area, but leading there requires a
> considerable "lead head": pro is sparse as compared to other areas,
> and you often have to augment it with self-placed stuff.
That would would make it a bolted climbing area, not a sport climbing area.
> On routes
> like "Anaconda", taking a dive on the rather continuously strenuous
> main passage can easily mean a 20feet plunge or more. Not only is
> there some basic ground fall potential, also taking a fall means
> rather certainly that your attempt is finished for the day. It will
> take considerable time before you get as far next time, and you
> probably won't take the risk again if your form is such that you
> failed the first time.
>
> According to your definition, the route would not be sport. Yet it is
> clearly bolted as such. It is a dare-devil sport route.
Which makes it not a sport route. That makes it just a bolted route. Or
something else.
> I am probably not making much sense to you. For me sport vs. trad
> revolves more about the mental investments you have to spend for
> placing pro.
I interpreted John's statement to imply that there are routes where all pro
are bolts, but they are not sport routes. It's all in the definition, no?
"When I use a word, it means just
what I choose it to mean, neither
more nor less."
Humpty Dumpty
Reginald Braithwaite-Lee
Yes I do!
I don't know what the most efficient way to become a solid 5.11 or
5.12 trad leader, or the fastest way, or the way with the least work
involved, or the safest way, or, or, or...
I'll know some of those when I have three hundred trad leads going ;-)
But I do know the most important way :-)
David Kastrup
> I interpreted John's statement to imply that there are routes where
> all pro are bolts, but they are not sport routes. It's all in the
> definition, no?
Quite so, and that's the reason I try to nail down some definition
that would agree with the opinion of most rec.climbers. I get enough
flak without needing additional one just because my terms happen to
disagree with anybody else's.
> "When I use a word, it means just
> what I choose it to mean, neither
> more nor less."
> Humpty Dumpty
--
Lord Slime
> > "A sport route is a climb which is bolted in such a manner as to allow
> > the climber to focus on the moves and not the consequences of a fall."
> That would mean that any route where you felt different about leading
> it and following or toproping it would not qualify as a sport route.
No, it doesn't mean that at all.
> I have had sport routes here with loose bolts, and some with fixed pro
> that you basically clipped mostly because there was no point in
> dragging up more draws than necessary. Do sport routes transmogrify
> into trad as their protection deteriorates?
No. It changes into an unsafe sport route since, at least in most areas, the
rock doesn't even offer trad gear placements.
> Ith is basically a sport climbing area, but leading there requires a
> considerable "lead head": pro is sparse as compared to other areas,
> and you often have to augment it with self-placed stuff. On routes
> like "Anaconda", taking a dive on the rather continuously strenuous
> main passage can easily mean a 20feet plunge or more. Not only is
> there some basic ground fall potential...
> According to your definition, the route would not be sport. Yet it is
> clearly bolted as such.
If it's not bolted such that falling is safe, then it's not a sport route.
> I am probably not making much sense to you.
This is nothing new.
> For me sport vs. trad
> revolves more about the mental investments you have to spend for
> placing pro. "Anaconda" may scare the shit out of you, but it does
> not offer opportunity for wasting thought on pro. You have to make do
> with what is there. People know there are no good placements in the
> main passage, and people know that wasting any time looking for them
> in that pumping passage is a sure way to fall off.
And so... what's your point?
- Lord Slime
john r baker
Christian :? wrote:
And....AND...did you check out his web-site ? He gives
tips on both training and foot-work ! Cool.
jb
Dawn Alguard
>
> Isn't there a FAQ about THIS? YET?
Of course there is.
http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/starting.htm#sportvtrad
> I'm sure it could start Lord Slime's definition and end with somebody else parroting it.
Well, his definition is the second one, but almost.
Dawn
David Kastrup
> stinkwagen wrote:
> >
> > Isn't there a FAQ about THIS? YET?
>
> Of course there is.
>
> http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/starting.htm#sportvtrad
Thanks. Seems that according to the criteria most of the group here
employ (and probably much to their chagrin) I have more "trad"
experience under my belt that I would have reckoned before.
Well, taking a look at my set of rocks, none of them is in mint
condition, all looking pretty battered. Hmmm. When did that happen?
Rex Pieper
>> http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/starting.htm#sportvtrad
>Thanks. Seems that according to the criteria most of the group here
>employ (and probably much to their chagrin) I have more "trad"
>experience under my belt that I would have reckoned before.
>
>Well, taking a look at my set of rocks, none of them is in mint
>condition, all looking pretty battered. Hmmm. When did that happen?
David, by now you should realize there's been a long line of people
who've kicked you in the nuts, hence all the wear and tear. I'll wager
there's more still waiting for their turn, so my advice: Buy a cup.
-Rex Pieper
remove ".XSPAM" from signature to reply
stinkwagen
> stinkwagen wrote:
> >
> > Isn't there a FAQ about THIS? YET?
>
> Of course there is.
>
> http://www.tradgirl.com/climbing_faq/starting.htm#sportvtrad
Hmmm...guess I better get more studied up on that'tair FAQ.
I tried using your little search box but all I got was
"Look for Sport vs Trad on Ebay!"
Chuck
Dawn Alguard
>
> I tried using your little search box but all I got was
>
> "Look for Sport vs Trad on Ebay!"
Those are the ads that the free search engine throws on top of my
results. They're pretty funny sometimes. Someone had done a
search on "fear while leading," so I did the search myself to see
what results came up. The first ad on top read "Looking for fear
while leading? Find it at . . . "
Maybe I'll pay the money to get rid of the ads.
Dawn
David Kastrup
> stinkwagen wrote:
> >
> > I tried using your little search box but all I got was
> >
> > "Look for Sport vs Trad on Ebay!"
>
> Those are the ads that the free search engine throws on top of my
> results. They're pretty funny sometimes.
Well, I am author of a text editing package for the LaTeX document
processing system and checked its visibility with Google. Perhaps I
should have chosen a name different from preview-latex...
Quite a few "hot" references.