EVEREST DEATHS
david lim
From what I hae been able to glean from the South African Everest website ( better for hourly
type updates ) and the two US ones ( Outsideand NBC Everest Assault 96 ), there are 8 deaths.It
has been a deadly weekend on Everest.
The story from what I have been able to piece together is that a window of good weather on
Thursday night meant that the camps on the South Col were loaded with climbers.Thenews focused on
Scott Fischer's US group, the Taiwanese and Rob Hall's group.
Scott Fischer's group summitted at 230pm on Friday. Rob Hall's group joined a bit later. Half his
group had turned back because of building wind/fatigue. Rob's group summitted.For Rob, it was his
5th record time on Everest's summit. Then at 4pm a freak snowstrom hit the summit area. Base Camp
was reported to be in sunshine.
The groups began the retreat and as the storm worsened, the weakened climbers were picked off.
Scott Fischer turned around once his group
was at a safer altitude to go back to help the laggards. Rob Hall was frostbitten badly and
pinned above the Hillary step. He stopped responding to radio calls by Saturday morning and
declared officially dead on Sunday. Scott Fischer was found ater clipped onto the same rope as
Gao, the Taiwanese later. Gao was brought down as Scott was already in a coma and had less of a
chance of making it. He was left wrapped in more warm clothing and extra oxygen. Gao is reported
in a critical condition. Scott Fischer is now also declared dead. 3 Indian climbers who were the
first Indians to summit via the North Col route were later found dead by some Japanese
climbers. From Rob's group. Andy Harris ( NZ ), Y.Nanba ( Japan ) were found dead on Sunday.
Douglas Hansen's whereabouts is unknown but his chances of survival are not good.
Details are sketchy but this is about the best picture I have been able to get.Today ( Monday GMT
), a rescue/search operation is underway. Certainly,
those at Everest BC are trying to break the news ( good or bad ) to the direct relatives of those
concerned first.
Rob Hall was a friend of mine and like those who have lost friends or loved ones, we will mourn
their passing as we shared their triumphs.
a...@capecod.net
From what I hae been able to glean from the South African Everest website ( better for hourly
> type updates ) and the two US ones ( Outsideand NBC Everest Assault 96 ), there are 8 deaths.It
> has been a deadly weekend on Everest.
Can you post the URL's fothese sites? Thanks
Bhushan Khanal
Hope this helps.
http://outside.starwave.com:80/outside/online/news/th01.html
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nds3.htm
http://www.south-asia.com/news-ktmpost.html
http://outside.starwave.com/outside/online/peaks/fischer/rpt0512.html
http://www.nbc.com/everest/e1a.html
http://everest.cadmus-i.com/door.cgi?name=guest&pass=everest&area=9&room=0
Bhushan Khanal
Seattle WA.
Dave Newton
david lim wrote:
> Rob Hall was a friend of mine and like those who have lost friends or
> loved ones, we will mourn their passing as we shared their triumphs.
From the NBC website:
> The well-respected climber was holed up in a crevasse near the summit.
> Low on oxgyen and a walkie-talkie in hand, he spent his last moments
> speaking to his pregnant wife Jan, who was in New Zealand. Hall died of
> hypothermia.
This truly takes my breath away... At least they had the opportunity to
talk to each other...
Dave "Do Real Hardmen(tm) cry at work?" Newton...
Hugh Grierson
In article <4n7hq2$8...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, dav...@cyberway.com.sg says...
>Rob Hall was frostbitten badly and
>pinned above the Hillary step. He stopped responding to radio calls by Saturday morning and
>declared officially dead on Sunday.
>Douglas Hansen's whereabouts is unknown but his chances of survival are not good.
For the benefit of those who are not completely up to date the story so far
seems that Rob was descending with Doug who was having difficulty. Rob stayed
with him and they bivvied together between the summit and the Hillary step.
Doug died during the night. The next day Rob stayed in radio contact but was
too weak to continue further. He died on the 2nd night.
As David said, it looks like Scott also died trying to help others.
I really can't imagine a more heroic death.
Bruce Hildenbrand
In article <4ndno7$5...@baldrick.trimble.co.nz> hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:
>In article <4n7hq2$8...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, dav...@cyberway.com.sg says...
>>Rob Hall was frostbitten badly and pinned above the Hillary step. He
>>stopped responding to radio calls by Saturday morning and
>>declared officially dead on Sunday.
>[...]
>>Douglas Hansen's whereabouts is unknown but his chances of survival
>>are not good.
>For the benefit of those who are not completely up to date the story so far
>seems that Rob was descending with Doug who was having difficulty. Rob stayed
>with him and they bivvied together between the summit and the Hillary step.
>Doug died during the night. The next day Rob stayed in radio contact but was
>too weak to continue further. He died on the 2nd night.
This brings up an interesting point. If Rob was guiding Doug, does he
have an obligation to stay with his client? If Rob and Doug were just
two friends on the same expedition would the situation have been any
different?
It is a tragic accident which will most likely cause a major investigation
into the practices of commercial guiding on Mount Everest.
Bruce Hildenbrand
ps - my condolences to all those touched by this unfortunate incident.
Lee Owen Fleming
In article <4ndno7$5...@baldrick.trimble.co.nz>,
The last paragraph in the NY times said, on Monday I believe, that Rob Hall
died without food, oxygen, water, a sleeping bag, or tent. Is this true?
I can't believe that someone that experienced would not be prepared for a
serious bivy, especially with clients.
Lee
Hans Lehmann
Correct if I'm wrong (I've never been *close* to 8000m), but at that altitude
I imagine that bringing along sleeping bags, etc., would pretty much
guarantee that you *won't* make the summit.
Bruce Hildenbrand
I think the more important question here is that this was a commercially
guided party. Does the guide accept more responsibility here and because
of this, does the guide come more prepared for unexpected difficulties?
As I said before, the tragic events of May 10th will most likely offer
more questions than answers when it comes to commercially guiding in
the big mountains.
Bruce Hildenbrand
dh5...@goodnet.com
From: bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce Hildenbrand)
Newsgroups: rec.climbing
Subject: Re: EVEREST DEATHS
Date: 16 May 1996 18:32:29 GMT
Organization: Sun
Message-ID: <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>
References: <4n7hq2$8...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg> <4ndno7$5...@baldrick.trimble.co.nz>
dh5...@goodnet.com
Andrew Slater
Hugh Grierson wrote:
>
> In article <4n7hq2$8...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, dav...@cyberway.com.sg says
> >pinned above the Hillary step. He stopped responding to radio calls by
> > Saturday morning and
> >declared officially dead on Sunday.
> [...]
> >Douglas Hansen's whereabouts is unknown but his chances of survival
> >are not good.
>
> For the benefit of those who are not completely up to date the story so far
> seems that Rob was descending with Doug who was having difficulty. Rob stayed
> with him and they bivvied together between the summit and the Hillary step.
> Doug died during the night. The next day Rob stayed in radio contact but was
> too weak to continue further. He died on the 2nd night.
>
>
Hmm, heroic maybe but it also seems silly. What are people doing on Everest and
at that altitude if they need a guide ?? Not that I've been to any such
altitude, but it sounds like it's hard enough to take care of yourself let alone
others.
I'm actually suprised that something like this didn't happen earlier. Funny how
the guides were able to help others .. if they'd been on their own, they
probably would have made it down (or at least if they were with more experienced
climbers). To their credit, they stayed and looked after their clients as best
they could, but it just seems such a silly thing to take people needing guides
up that big a mountain.
In the end it's just a waste. I only ever met R.H. for 5 min in the Mt.Cook pub,
but he seemed a pretty good bloke who didn't suffer from the "I'm so good"
syndrome and no doubt will be missed by many.
Drew
PS. This isn't flame bait, just an opinion on something which I think is sad,
and might be worth discussion.
-- ~~ /\
Andrew Slater /\ / \/\ ,
/ \/ \ \ ()/
School of Earth Sciences / /\/ \ \ <||
Macquarie University / / \ \ \ ||/\
Sydney, N.S.W, Australia / / \ \ \ / "
\
asl...@penman.es.mq.edu.au "
http://atmos.es.mq.edu.au/~aslater/ Climb it, Ski it, Live it ......
RKuehn3226
I don't know that a major investigation is required..however the
business of guided climbs on Everst has placed climbers there that do not
have the nessecary skills. May 10 proved that. There is also the issue
of overuse on Everst, particularly at Base Camp and up the Khumbu. There
are good arguments for a minimum 5 year moritorium on any climbing on
Everst...the argument against this is spelled M O N E Y. Yes, bagging
Everst is big business; for guides and the Nation of Nepal.
I don't know how exactly one would go about qualifying clients, but what
is going on now is inexcusable.
R. Kuehn
Stephen Meier
In <4ngdfv$9...@news1.goodnet.com> dh5...@goodnet.com writes:
>
>From: bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce Hildenbrand)
>Newsgroups: rec.climbing
>Subject: Re: EVEREST DEATHS
>Date: 16 May 1996 18:32:29 GMT
>Organization: Sun
>Message-ID: <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>
>References: <4n7hq2$8...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>
<4ndno7$5...@baldrick.trimble.co.nz>
>
>In article <4ndno7$5...@baldrick.trimble.co.nz>
hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:
dav...@cyberway.com.sg says...
>>>Rob Hall was frostbitten badly and pinned above the Hillary step. He
>>>stopped responding to radio calls by Saturday morning and
>>>declared officially dead on Sunday.
>>[...]
>>>Douglas Hansen's whereabouts is unknown but his chances of survival
>>>are not good.
>
>>For the benefit of those who are not completely up to date the story
so far
>>seems that Rob was descending with Doug who was having difficulty.
Rob stayed
>>with him and they bivvied together between the summit and the Hillary
step.
>>Doug died during the night. The next day Rob stayed in radio contact
but was
>>too weak to continue further. He died on the 2nd night.
>
>have an obligation to stay with his client? If Rob and Doug were just
>two friends on the same expedition would the situation have been any
>different?
>
>It is a tragic accident which will most likely cause a major
investigation
>into the practices of commercial guiding on Mount Everest.
>
>Bruce Hildenbrand
>
>ps - my condolences to all those touched by this unfortunate incident.
>
ohh come on now...... whats a major investigation going to tell us?
That climbing 8000 meter peaks is dangerous? Quick show of hands
please, anybody here think climbing everest or K2 or any other 8KM
peak is not more dangerouse then say uhmm hanging out at the beach.
Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
your life then stay off them.
A friend of mine once said that Alpine climbers are the most self
centered people there are, cause they only care about their own
thrills... ya know i think he was right.... but it works for some.. my
sympathies to those who were left behind...
But this is no reason to bash guided climbs...
steve m
ps. just for the record i am not a guide i have never used a guide and
i never expect to. But if you want to, well thats your choice. And
if you dont like guides, more power to you. And if your a park service
employee choosing who has the right to Guide, get a real job.
I just dont see any logic to blaiming this accident on the exsistence
of guides.
BillFoote
sfm...@ix.netcom.com(Stephen Meier) writes:
>Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
> chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
> not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
> Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
> no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
> high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
> your life then stay off them.
Yup. How many times have you heard someone say something like "no
mountain is worth dying over"? Anyone who believes that is not very
accurately evaluating the risks and shouldn't be on a big mountain. The
possible reward is always weighed against the perceived risk. Most people
just don't think it can happen to them. Until, that is, the perceived
risk (emminent death, perhaps) becomes too great. THEN they decide "no
mountain is worth dying for". Given last year's K2 deaths and the recent
Everest deaths it's obvious that accidents can happen to anyone,
experienced or not, guidED or not, and guidING or not.
> ps. just for the record i am not a guide i have never used a guide and
> i never expect to. But if you want to, well thats your choice. And
> if you dont like guides, more power to you. And if your a park service
> employee choosing who has the right to Guide, get a real job.
BTW, at one point does the expedition member with the most experience
become a "guide" and the member with the least become a "client"? Does
this have something to do with money exchange? I've seen very experienced
and capable mountaineers being guided, and I've seen some pretty incapable
"guides". A common perception is that clients are generally incapable of
taking care of themselves and the guide's job is to babysit. While this
may often be true, it is still an unfair generalization.
Wolfgang Soergel
In article f...@nile.com, Clyde...@nile.com (Clyde Soles) writes:
>In message ID <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM> on 5/17/96, Stephen Meier
><sfm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
>
>> Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
>> chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
>> not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
>> Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
>> no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
>> high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
>> your life then stay off them.
>>
>at the South Col when the shit hit the fan). He was under the impression that
>quite a few of those people did not belong up there and really did not have a
>clue about what they were getting into. Though he didn't say it outright, it
>sounded like those clients probably did result in the death of three guides.
Exactly my impression. When i read the various web pages days >before<
the disaster (see for example
http://www.starwave.com:80/outside/online/peaks/features/krakauer.html),
i had some bad feeling about sentences like ".. but the guides make it possible.."
and so on. These people may do fine as long as everything goes smooth.
But as soon as something goes wrong, they (and their team /guides) get into
trouble. Remember, this was not a major storm, blowing for days on end.
(If i did not miss any information on the web pages, the storm started
around 6pm and the weather cleared at around midnight. This kind of
weather is certainly not unussual for the area).
>I doubt there will be a major investigation or that guided trips will stop --
>just too much money involved. Hopefully some lessons will be learned by future
>parties. Expect a detailed story in Outside soon.
I fear there won't be much change at the mountain but i also fear there
will be some greedy layers (not that i think all layers are greedy ...)
bringing things to courts...
Wolfgang
P.S. Condolence to the friends and families of all victims. I did not want
to start this discussion that early but i think als, things should be said.
---
Wolfgang Soergel, M.S. (C.U.)
Chemin Benjamin-Dumur 6 Pirckheimerstrasse 4
1008 Prilly D-91207 Lauf
Switzerland Germany
wsoe...@desun1.epfl.ch wsoe...@cip.e-technik.uni-erlangen.de
Bruce Hildenbrand
>chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
>not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
>Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
>no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
>high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
>your life then stay off them.
Jon Krakauer did an interview yesterday on US TV and he basically said
that a number of the clients had no business being on the mountain.
I think the "guided versus non-guided" nature of this tragedy is very
relevant.
Bruce Hildenbrand
ps - Krakauer had never been above 17,000 feet but was allowed to go
on the expedition. Just how does that qualify him for being competent
at altitude (even Krakauer admits that he was very concerned)?
Clyde Soles
In message ID <4ni385$e...@newsbf02.news.aol.com> on 5/17/96, BillFoote
<bill...@aol.com> wrote:
> A common perception is that clients are generally incapable of
> taking care of themselves and the guide's job is to babysit.
Anyone who believes this needs to read "My Climbs in the Alps and Caucasus" by
Mummery. Mountaineering as we know it today is a direct result of British
climbers hiring local guides -- a lot of impressive climbs were made as a result
of this partnership.
Peter G. Green
>>>
>>> The last paragraph in the NY times said, on Monday I believe, that Rob Hall
>>> died without food, oxygen, water, a sleeping bag, or tent. Is this true?
>>> I can't believe that someone that experienced would not be prepared for a
>>> serious bivy, especially with clients.
Clients aside, one cannot pitch a tent on the south summit of Everest in
a storm. One can dig a hole in the snow, and he may indeed have had a
shovel. Water and bottled oxygen ran out. Without water, food is
unswallowable. (And without much air, tough to digest.) The down suit
many wear up there is nearly a walking sleeping bag.
>>
>>Correct if I'm wrong (I've never been *close* to 8000m), but at that altitude
>>I imagine that bringing along sleeping bags, etc., would pretty much
>>guarantee that you *won't* make the summit.
>
Carry spare headlamp batteries and bulb and a decision in your head to turn
back in time.
-Peter
Clyde Soles
In message ID <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM> on 5/17/96, Stephen Meier
<sfm...@ix.netcom.com> wrote:
> Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
> chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
> not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
> Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
> no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
> high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
> your life then stay off them.
>
Listened to Jon Krakauer (sp?) on NPR last night talking about the storm (he was
at the South Col when the shit hit the fan). He was under the impression that
quite a few of those people did not belong up there and really did not have a
clue about what they were getting into. Though he didn't say it outright, it
sounded like those clients probably did result in the death of three guides.
Eric Hirst
Clyde...@nile.com (Clyde Soles) writes:
>Anyone who believes this needs to read "My Climbs in the Alps and Caucasus" by
>Mummery. Mountaineering as we know it today is a direct result of British
>climbers hiring local guides -- a lot of impressive climbs were made as a
>result of this partnership.
Agreed. I doubt anyone has climbed Everest without either hiring
guides and/or porters or without being hired or sponsored in some
way. Try earning enough money to finance a big Himalayan climb
on your own while also gathering the skills and experience to
do the whole thing unsupported. It just doesn't add up -- the
peaks require more cooperation than that, and the guiding system
is one form of that cooperation.
From everything I know (all 2nd hand) about Scott Fischer, he
loved to guide. Getting clients up was part of the game for
him. One of his goals was to someday guide K2, and was lobbying
hard for a share of the Rainier concession this spring. For
him, getting somebody like Sandy Pittman up Everest was a much
bigger personal accomplishment than climbing a harder route with
stronger partners.
On another note, I suspect last year's press on Alison Hargreaves'
status as an irresponsible parent will not be applied to Fischer or
Hall. (I certainly hope their families don't have to put up with the
same crap hers did.)
--
Eric Hirst
er...@u.washington.edu
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~eric/
Bob Cormack
>
>Correct if I'm wrong (I've never been *close* to 8000m), but at that altitude
>I imagine that bringing along sleeping bags, etc., would pretty much
>guarantee that you *won't* make the summit.
Anybody that reaches the summit of Everest (or any 8000m peak) with so
little reserve that another 5 - 10 lbs in the pack would have stopped
them is on the edge of death anyway -- if you're that close to being
stopped, then a lot of other things could kill you: a 10 mph increase
in the wind speed, deteriorating snow conditions, running out of water
a couple of hours before you reach camp, etc. True, less weight lets
you move faster, thus increasing your chances of making the summit --
but you're betting your life that nothing goes wrong.
On the other hand, the climbing history of Everst suggests that your only
real chance against bad weather is to get down -- high bivouacs are rarely
successful except in good weather.
A lot of people hang it out on Everest -- it's pretty hard to turn back
400 ft. from the summit, even if all your experience says to.
Given the psychological pressures of climbing Everest and the fatalism
required by a rational assesment of the dangers and history of the peak,
it's hard to say what the best course of action is -- except that you
and your rope partner should agree on it. My personal inclination is
to be as prepared as possible
Bob Cormack
Stephen Meier
In <4nie3v$d...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM> bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce
Hildenbrand) writes:
snip
>>>This brings up an interesting point. If Rob was guiding Doug, does
he
>>>have an obligation to stay with his client? If Rob and Doug were
just
>>>two friends on the same expedition would the situation have been any
>>>different?
>>>
>>>It is a tragic accident which will most likely cause a major
>>investigation
>>>into the practices of commercial guiding on Mount Everest.
>>>
>>>Bruce Hildenbrand
>>>
>>>ps - my condolences to all those touched by this unfortunate
incident.
>>>
>>
>>ohh come on now...... whats a major investigation going to tell us?
>>That climbing 8000 meter peaks is dangerous? Quick show of hands
>>please, anybody here think climbing everest or K2 or any other 8KM
>>peak is not more dangerouse then say uhmm hanging out at the beach.
>>
>>Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
>>chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided
or
>>not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
>>Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves
cause
>>no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble
that
>>high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
>>your life then stay off them.
>
>Jon Krakauer did an interview yesterday on US TV and he basically said
>that a number of the clients had no business being on the mountain.
>
>I think the "guided versus non-guided" nature of this tragedy is very
>relevant.
>
>Bruce Hildenbrand
>
>ps - Krakauer had never been above 17,000 feet but was allowed to go
>on the expedition. Just how does that qualify him for being competent
>at altitude (even Krakauer admits that he was very concerned)?
Concidering last years deaths on K2 it could be argued no one has any
buisness being on Everest or any other high mountain. But rather then
having a government choose who should or who should not be there, I
would prefer to have individuals make that choice for them selves.
So Bruce, do you suppose that those who got blown off of K2 were also
not competent. Hey I'm easy, if your so bright, maybe you should be
sole judge of who is competent and who isn't... but with that power
then comes the responsibility when events turn disasterous. Thats one
job i wouldnt want and I dont want some non-climbing Government
Employee doing it either.
I base compentence on the ability to make an informed rational
descision (mental competence). If Jon Krakauer didn't think he was
competent then why did he choose to be there. Again we are talking
Everest, this wasn't some unknown peak or an unknown route. This isn't
a case of selling some unsuspecting fool the Brooklin Bridge. The
risks are well know.
Concidering the extream dangers of climbing high would you be willing
to be tied to some one lacking minimal technicle compitence for any
amount of money?
steve m.
Dingus Milktoast
About 600 people have summitted Everest. About 125 people have died trying. So,
regardless of how prepared, how experienced, how benign the weather; there is still a
1 in 6 chance that a summit bid will result in death. I think it's something that has
to be taken at face value. People die on those big mountains. Doesn't mean we
shouldn't mourn them. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure out what went wrong.
But perhaps it isn't really necessary to find scapegoats. The mountain itself is the
biggest scapegoat of all.
DMT
david lim
Further to Clyde Soles views, I think a balance has to be struck:
guides have a need to make a living and clients owe it to others and
themselves to face-up to their own experience level.
What has happened since 1985 is a significant increase in guiding
non-technical routes on 8000m peaks and others which are part of the 7
Summits quest. This kind of situation attracts a whole lot of people
including peak-baggers
of every variety.These are sometimes merely strong walkers with little
technical ability or experience who just yank on fixed ropes andleave
everything to the guides. I guess this must be one of the things that
rankle - where experienced but-broke alpinists are concerned.
I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of endorsement
from his respective national alpine association saying he's
got what it takes to do the peak.
Quang-Tuan Luong
Dingus Milktoast wrote:
>
> About 600 people have summitted Everest. About 125 people have died > trying. So,
> regardless of how prepared, how experienced, how benign the weather; there is still a
> 1 in 6 chance that a summit bid will result in death.
This conclusion is not exact. The
fatality rate (= dead climbers / climbers attempting)
is actually about 5% (1 in 20), like for the other
8000m peaks.
Tuan.
--
Quang-Tuan LUONG, Computer scientist, SRI +1(415)859-5138
333 Ravenswood av. EK231, Menlo Park, CA 94025-3493, USA
lu...@ai.sri.com http://www.cs.berkeley.edu/~qtluong/
Stephen Meier
In <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg> david lim
<dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
>
This is what i expected to be proposed. And This is what i feared.
>I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of
endorsement
>from his respective national alpine association saying he's
>got what it takes to do the peak.
The American Alpine Club is made up of only 2000 members am I expected
to believe that this is proportional representation of the american
climbing comunity? I currently don't climb with any members of the AAC
so how can they judge me and my abilities?
What i fear is that if given this POWER the AAC will then intentionally
or not coerce climbers into joining. Then they can claim they
represent an even larger proportion of the comunity.. What comes next?
required AAC endorsment to climb in the rockies or the sieras? AAC
endorsmant to climb on the small local crags near your house. Perhaps
registration and required climbing courses and so forth and so on.
Don't let this happen. Don't let the freedom of the hills be forever
destroyed. Yes support the AAC when it comes to keeping access to the
crags open but oppose the AAC when it comes to manditory registration
and licensing.
Thanx for letting me vent.
steve m
RKuehn3226
>I forsee, on Everst anyway, a requirement that each climber
>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtain a letter of endorsement
>from his respective national alpine association saying he's got what it
>takes to do the peak.
Oh great! That's just what we need, a license to climb! How does one
go about "qualifying" for this letter? Come on...we don't need more
control of climbers, we need to control where guiding belongs. 8000 meter
peaks have no "easy" routes. May 10 pretty much proved this. There are
plenty of other options guiding. Keep the gapers off the high peaks.
R. Kuehn
Bruce Hildenbrand
First off, this Steve guy is putting words in my mouth and attributing
things to me that I never said. I don't think the goverment should
step in here and judge climbers and I don't even for a minute think
I can say anything about the feelings or motivations about what
happened since I was not there. The first hand accounts of a climber
who was on the mountain, Jon Krakauer, said that some of the clients
should not have been there, I am not passing judgement, I am simply
passing on Krakauer's comments.
And lastly, I am not advocating one side or another, I am just asking
some questions that I feel should be asked.
I would refute your claim that clients completely understand the risks
that they could possibly encounter on the mountain. If this really was
the case and everybody on the expedition understood the risks completely,
then I think it would be much easier to leave climbers that were clearly
dying on the mountain to save yourself. Read Greg Child's piece on K2
called "Margin of Luck". Four people started for the summit, but they
were basically climbing as individuals. Steve Swenson even admitted that
when he was going down and Greg was still going up, Steve never expected
to see Greg again. That is a pretty strong statement!
However, it appears that in this Everest tragedy, the guides who died
stayed with their clients and the guides who left their clients lived.
Why did some guides feel the responsibility to stay with their clients
while others felt it was OK to leave them? Again, I am not saying who
is right and who is wrong, I am just asking the question.
Bruce Hildenbrand
Stephen Meier
masive snipping this this is getting way to long.
I said the following in responce to a posting from Bruce
more snipping sorry go back reread the thread if you care.
>And lastly, I am not advocating one side or another, I am just asking
>some questions that I feel should be asked.
more snipping
>
>Bruce Hildenbrand
Bruce,
Im sorry if i have offended you. I don't think that I put any words in
your mouth. At least I can't find any quotes that I put in that I
attributed to you. I did ask you a question though. Well ok, i was
sarcastic when i asked it. The question was do you think that those
who died on K2 last year were compitent? And if you had the power to
grant permits would you have given the K2 party a permit? And if you
had would you not have taken on some resposibility for their lives?
This is the nature of Government intervention in Dangerouse activities.
If they have the responsibilty for determening who can climb then they
become resposible for deaths and rescues.
An investigation, sure thing do it, might be some thing about the risks
could be learned. Are you going to pay for this investigation? No? ok
shall we soak the taxpayers agin?
Place any restrictions on the free will of individuals to determine who
they climb with, what they climb and wether or not they pay each other
is none of the governments buisness. Bruce, and its none of yours
ether.
That is my Posistion.
sincerly yours,
this steve guy
Hugh Grierson
In article <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com says...
>This brings up an interesting point. If Rob was guiding Doug, does he
>have an obligation to stay with his client? If Rob and Doug were just
>two friends on the same expedition would the situation have been any
>different?
It is an interesting question, and I have wondered the same thing.
I remember also when Mark Whetu bivvied above 8700m on the North
ridge with his friend and client Mike Rheinberger. Mike died the
next day, and Mark survived with the loss of his toes.
It must be the hardest decision to make to have to leave a friend
and climbing partner behind to die in order to save yourself, but
at altitude it happens sometimes and you'd have to be prepared to
make that decision if necessary. But how much harder it must be
for a guide to leave his client (and friend) behind. I think
things may well have been different.
I wonder also about Scott Fischer who apparently was very tired and
possibly sick during the ascent. If he wasn't guiding would he have
turned back? We'll never know.
>It is a tragic accident which will most likely cause a major investigation
>into the practices of commercial guiding on Mount Everest.
Maybe. Guides also must accept the risks in their chosen profession.
Tom McMillan
Stephen Meier wrote:
>
> In <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg> david lim
> <dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
> >
>
> This is what i expected to be proposed. And This is what i feared.
>
> >irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of
> endorsement
> >from his respective national alpine association saying he's
> >got what it takes to do the peak.
>
> to believe that this is proportional representation of the american
> climbing comunity? I currently don't climb with any members of the AAC
> so how can they judge me and my abilities?
>
> What i fear is that if given this POWER the AAC will then intentionally
> or not coerce climbers into joining. Then they can claim they
> represent an even larger proportion of the comunity.. What comes next?
> required AAC endorsment to climb in the rockies or the sieras? AAC
> endorsmant to climb on the small local crags near your house. Perhaps
> registration and required climbing courses and so forth and so on.
>
> Don't let this happen. Don't let the freedom of the hills be forever
> destroyed. Yes support the AAC when it comes to keeping access to the
> crags open but oppose the AAC when it comes to manditory registration
> and licensing.
>
> Thanx for letting me vent.
>
> steve m
Glen Porzak (who has done Everest) doing the SW face of Alpamayo on
jumars? On the other hand there is Enric Lucas and Nil Bohigas who did an
outrageous alpine style ascent of Annapurna South Face in 1984, then
descended a different route by rappel. And they were total unknowns!
David Smale
I know one of the members who decided to turn back 400 ft from the summit
thus probably saving his life. His previous climbing experiences
including experience above 20,000 probably made him a good candidate for
Everest. But isn't it up to the guide to determine whether the client
has the appropriate experience to make the expedition. And almost
certainly ability to pay enters into this equation. How many clients are
motivated, capable and have the financial where withall to make the trip.
The guide makes the decision in the same way, I suppose, as the
expedition leader did in early expeditions when my readings suggest that
some members, then, appeared to have less experience than some of the so
called clients of recent events, but brought sponsorship or some other
desired attriburte. The ability to function successfully at high
altitude was equally iffy then as well.
Lars Johansson
>Agreed. I doubt anyone has climbed Everest without either hiring
>guides and/or porters or without being hired or sponsored in some
>way.
Reinhold Messner came pretty close, didn't he?
--Lars
ZeebraTwo
In article <4npiuc$o...@newsy.ifm.liu.se>, Lars Johansson
<la...@ikp.liu.se> writes:
Messner is one in a billion, the Wayne Gretzky of mountaineering.
Susann
"Life is better at 14,000 feet"
/\--soon to be 20,360 feet ~~}:->
Douglas S. Jones
sfm...@ix.netcom.com(Stephen Meier) said May 17:
>ohh come on now...... whats a major investigation going to tell us?
>That climbing 8000 meter peaks is dangerous? Quick show of hands
>please, anybody here think climbing everest or K2 or any other 8KM
>peak is not more dangerouse then say uhmm hanging out at the beach.
>Guided or not guided we are talking Everest... EVEREST... Anybody who
>chosses to go high on Everest is taking a very major risk... Guided or
>not guided they better well be damn competent at climbing at
>Altitude.... This implies taking responsibility for them selves cause
>no guide is gona be able to save their ass if they get in trouble that
>high up... Big mountains Kill Quickly if you are not willing to loss
>your life then stay off them.
The odds are one in six you'll die attempting Everest. Considering Hall
and Fischer's deaths it not an advantage being experenced or being a
guide. You'll risking all for the big ones. Everyone that climbs those
mountains knows that, the guides amnd the clients. If we make the leap
that we can formaly control access to any mountain becases of too little
experence (=> BECAUSE they might get killed) then it's a short leap to
stopping all such climbing because it's all dangerous.
Douglas Jones
Rupert, Idaho
Chris Weaver
crha...@ix.netcom.com (Dingus Milktoast) wrote:
>About 600 people have summitted Everest. About 125 people have died trying. So,
>regardless of how prepared, how experienced, how benign the weather; there is still a
>to be taken at face value. People die on those big mountains. Doesn't mean we
>shouldn't mourn them. Doesn't mean we shouldn't try to figure out what went wrong.
>But perhaps it isn't really necessary to find scapegoats. The mountain itself is the
>biggest scapegoat of all.
>
>DMT
>
Sorry Dingus, but your logic is wrong on the numbers. True, about 600
people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget about the
vast majority (3/4 or 4/5 or something, I cant recall) that ATTEMPT the
peak, but do not summit. If you consider these into the equation, the
chances of dying in an ATTEMPT are much lower than one in six. That said,
it is still sickeningly dangerous, and I agree with your other assertions.
Chris Weaver
Rawdomg
In article <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, david lim
<dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
>I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of endorsement
>from his respective national alpine association saying he's
>got what it takes to do the peak.
>
Would this have prevented the storm that took those lives?
Mike
Melville@hpdesk.hp.com Mark Melville
Wolfgang Soergel
No but it could have prevented some of the victims (and the ones saved under
live-threatening conditions) from being in the storm at all.
Not that i would think that this kind of regulations would be a good ting,
but we need to realize that these mountaines are not a playground for
the ones who can afford it but a (often enough deadly nevertheless)
challange for the ones who have the experience and physical strength
required. So it would the job of the ones guiding on the mountain
to select their clients and to decide. Tough call.
Wolfgang
je...@nacm.com
david lim wrote:
<snip>
> I forsee, on Everst anyway, a requirement that each climber
> irrespective of what group he belongs to obtain a letter of endorsement
> from his respective national alpine association saying he's got what it
> takes to do the peak.
Then RKuehn wrote
> Oh great! That's just what we need, a license to climb! How does one
> go about "qualifying" for this letter? Come on...we don't need more
> control of climbers, we need to control where guiding belongs. 8000
> meter peaks have no "easy" routes. May 10 pretty much proved this.
> There are plenty of other options guiding. Keep the gapers off the high
> peaks.
An finally, on the Accident Statistics thread, Taylor Shull implied that
climbing was safe because you could control everything (ha!):
<snip>
> Hell yes driving is more dangerous than climbing, YOU CAN'T CONTROL
> THE VARIABLES!!!
We don't need a license to climb!!!
Ranger: "Excuse me, M'am, can I see your license??"
Me: :o "Uhhh, I, ahhhh, it's in my chalkbag..." greasing off a tiny
hold "Can you wait to the next belay?"
Why add a layer of corruption, rules and overhead where it isn't needed?
After we regulate climbing, what next?? Walking? Surfing the net?
Writing?? Thinking?? :o
I don't believe that guiding is what needs to be stopped or controlled. I
would hire a guide in a foreign country to assist my climb - if only to
assist with cultural differences.
The issues here are the abilities of the individual. CLIMBING IS A
DANGEROUS SPORT. So is Mountaineering. People -ADULTS- need to make up
their own minds as to whether they can or should engage in an activity -
any activity: climbing, peak bagging, J-walking, whatever. Same goes for
the Guides. Nobody held a gun to anyone's head and told them to stay
behind or wait for someone on Everest. And nobody was forced up there,
either. The ultimate decision to risk your life cannot be made by anyone
other than yourself. You always have the last say. Yes, it's always a
tragedy when the odds stack against you, but you knew the odds going in,
and perhaps that is why you played.
If we're smart we learned from this, or at least we were reminded that
there will ALWAYS be things we can not control. Rock fall, sudden storms
(snow or rain)... SOMETHING!
Stepping off my soapbox to do a little J-walking...
-jean
FirstCrow
In article <4nqkr4$u...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, raw...@aol.com (Rawdomg)
writes:
>In article <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, david lim
><dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
>
>>I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
>>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of endorsement
>>from his respective national alpine association saying he's
>>got what it takes to do the peak.
That would be absofuckinglutely ridiculous. Is this what climbing is
coming to? It is insulting enough that climbers have to pay the
government (any government) to climb a mountain simply because that
mountain lies within the temporary political boundaries of their country.
Now take it a step further and force each climber to be endorsed to their
alpine assoc. --- shit, man, let's just invite red tape, shall we?
The only person who knows how well I climb is me. I choose what I climb
and when I climb it. If I get scared, I bail. If I am confident, I
continue. That's all. I don't need the alpine club telling me I'm good
enough or not good enough to do a route.
By the way, I'm not saying that what you say won't happen, I'm just saying
fight it if it does.
Christian
Nate
Chris Weaver wrote:
>
> Sorry Dingus, but your logic is wrong on the numbers. True, about 600
> people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget about the
> vast majority (3/4 or 4/5 or something, I cant recall) that ATTEMPT the
> peak, but do not summit. If you consider these into the equation, the
> chances of dying in an ATTEMPT are much lower than one in six. That said,
> it is still sickeningly dangerous, and I agree with your other assertions.
>
> Chris Weaver
So how about this: There you are standing on the summit. You have a 1
in 5 chance of returning alive...
--
Nathanial Beckwith
New E-mail: beck...@tc.umn.edu
New Website: http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/g032/beckw007
Dingus Milktoast
Chris pointed out my error...
> crha...@ix.netcom.com (Dingus Milktoast) wrote:
> >About 600 people have summitted Everest. About 125 people have died trying. So,
> >regardless of how prepared, how experienced, how benign the weather; there is
> still a
> >1 in 6 chance that a summit bid will result in death.
>
> people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget about the
> vast majority (3/4 or 4/5 or something, I cant recall) that ATTEMPT the
> peak, but do not summit. If you consider these into the equation, the
> chances of dying in an ATTEMPT are much lower than one in six. That said,
> it is still sickeningly dangerous, and I agree with your other assertions.
>
Thanks for pointing out my error. I was a little over zealous in attempting to make a
point (when has that ever happened before?). I believe the correct stat is more like
1 in 20. K2 is much closer to the 1 in 6 mark though.
DMT
Ross Burnett
The odds are one in six you'll die attempting Everest. Considering Hall
and Fischer's deaths it not an advantage being experenced or being a
guide. You'll risking all for the big ones. Everyone that climbs those
mountains knows that, the guides amnd the clients. If we make the leap
that we can formaly control access to any mountain becases of too little
experence (=> BECAUSE they might get killed) then it's a short leap to
stopping all such climbing because it's all dangerous.
Douglas Jones
Rupert, Idaho
I thought the 1 to 6 ratio was dead-climbers to successfull climbers.
(i.e. 600 have bagged it, 100 have died trying, XXX went home before
they joined the death-or-glory stage of the game). I imagine XXX is
a rather large number, making Everest a wee bit safer than 1/6.
Of course, this is all just statistics. If you end up on a big one in
that sort of storm, best not to be relying on mathematics (or a guide!).
--
______________
ross burnett CiTR Pty Ltd
r.bu...@citr.com.au PHONE: +61-7-3259-2222
Stephen Meier
In <31A11D...@itlabs.umn.edu> Nate <beck...@itlabs.umn.edu>
writes:
>Chris Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Dingus, but your logic is wrong on the numbers. True, about
600
>> people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget
about the
>> vast majority (3/4 or 4/5 or something, I cant recall) that ATTEMPT
the
>> peak, but do not summit. If you consider these into the equation,
the
>> chances of dying in an ATTEMPT are much lower than one in six. That
said,
>> it is still sickeningly dangerous, and I agree with your other
assertions.
>>
>
>So how about this: There you are standing on the summit. You have a
1
>in 5 chance of returning alive...
>--
>Nathanial Beckwith
>New E-mail: beck...@tc.umn.edu
>New Website: http://www.umn.edu/nlhome/g032/beckw007
Hehe so if you stop 1 step short of the summit you get the lower odds
and if you make that last step you get the higher odds of dieing. Any
got a death distribution chart for Everest you know some sort of plot
that displays odds of dieing for altitude gained by a particular route?
Hey we could make this multi dimensional. How can we display
additional info about climbing experience, nationality, sex etc...
Uhmm has anybody applied for a government grant to do this yet?
steve m
Chris Mellor
In article <4nqmlv$t...@info.epfl.ch>, Wolfgang Soergel
<wsoe...@desun1.epfl.ch> writes
<Various bits snipped>
What's the problem with the Everest accidents? People die climbing.
People die climbing BIG mountains. It's a fact of the sport. Some of those
people are fathers, some are mothers, some are dickheads, some are
professionals, some behave heroically, some behave badly. They're
human beings so what else is new?
Climbing is risky - that's the point. So a lot of people die in a horrific storm
on Everest. There's no need for all this naval-gazing. It is very tough on
the partners, friends and families of the people involved but, hey, that's
climbing.
Tomorrow more people will try the big hill. If it weren't so dangerous
people wouldn't try it. Are climbers nuts? Sure. Is the Pope a catholic?
Croydon, UK.
Chris Mellor. Tel: +44 (0) 181 656 8846 Fax: +44 (0)181 662 1176
Lars Johansson
>Chris Weaver wrote:
>>
>> Sorry Dingus, but your logic is wrong on the numbers. True, about 600
>> people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget about the
>> vast majority (3/4 or 4/5 or something, I cant recall) that ATTEMPT the
>> peak, but do not summit. If you consider these into the equation, the
>> chances of dying in an ATTEMPT are much lower than one in six. That said,
>> it is still sickeningly dangerous, and I agree with your other assertions.
>>
>> Chris Weaver
>
>So how about this: There you are standing on the summit. You have a 1
>in 5 chance of returning alive...
>
to total number of summit attempts.
I recall reading somewhere that the death probability is 4% on average above
8000 m, i.e. of all the people making a summit attempt on one of the
8000+ mountains, 4% die either on the way up or down. I don't know how
well founded this figure is or where I saw it (I might have been Rock & Ice).
If someone knows for sure, please post it.
--Lars
Brian Knoth
hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) wrote:
>In article <4nfsbt$4...@engnews1.Eng.Sun.COM>, bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com says...
>>This brings up an interesting point. If Rob was guiding Doug, does he
>>have an obligation to stay with his client? If Rob and Doug were just
>>two friends on the same expedition would the situation have been any
>>different?
>
>It is an interesting question, and I have wondered the same thing.
>I remember also when Mark Whetu bivvied above 8700m on the North
>ridge with his friend and client Mike Rheinberger. Mike died the
>next day, and Mark survived with the loss of his toes.
>
>It must be the hardest decision to make to have to leave a friend
>and climbing partner behind to die in order to save yourself, but
>at altitude it happens sometimes and you'd have to be prepared to
>make that decision if necessary. But how much harder it must be
>for a guide to leave his client (and friend) behind. I think
>things may well have been different.
I cringe to even think of this, but do guides have _legal_ obligations
to stay with their clients ? For example, if the guide comes off the
mountain and in addition to the loss of some limbs or whatever, can the family
of a client serve him with a (bad word coming up) lawsuit ? Or do the
clients pretty much sign their lives away with a waiver ?
Brian.
Ed Douglas
It's not accurate to say that one in six dies climbing Everest.
There are around 630 people who have climbed Everest, some more than
once giving a total of more than 750 ascents. Thousands of people
have tried, however, and some of those that died did so without
succeeding. To get a meaningful statistic you have to divide the
number of people who have been there by the numbers of successful
climbers. It probably works out at one in a hundred.
Cheers
Ed Douglas
Steven Deem
On 19 May 1996, Bruce Hildenbrand wrote:
>
> However, it appears that in this Everest tragedy, the guides who died
> stayed with their clients and the guides who left their clients lived.
> Why did some guides feel the responsibility to stay with their clients
> while others felt it was OK to leave them? Again, I am not saying who
> is right and who is wrong, I am just asking the question.
>
>
>
I don't think you can draw this conclusion. It sounds like Scott Fisher
was sick, and was left behind by both clients and other guides in his
party, and eventually by his sherpa (we could certainly debate how or why
that happened). The guide in Rob Hall's party who died near camp (can't
remember his name, sorry) was alone (again, how this happened is unclear).
Neil Biedlman, a guide in Fisher's party, stayed with the clients and
lived, even though the descent sounded disorganized, with behaviour in the
group bordering on panic. The whole thing sounds like a mess, with more
than weather factoring in, including an ascent that took some 18 hours.
Hopefully this tragedy will give other guides pause before taking on
private clients for attempts on Everest.
Steve
Greg Opland
bhi...@stelvio.eng.sun.com (Bruce Hildenbrand) wrote:
>However, it appears that in this Everest tragedy, the guides who died
>stayed with their clients and the guides who left their clients lived.
>Why did some guides feel the responsibility to stay with their clients
>while others felt it was OK to leave them? Again, I am not saying who
>is right and who is wrong, I am just asking the question.
Now Bruce, having your long experience with this newsgroup, you
should know that posing a hypothetical question that might cause
someone to think, is simply not allowed. You're only allowed to
slam and flame here. Discussions are for alt.sex.bondage.
Of course I agree with you completely and think it is an interesting
thing to think about.
--
\ Greg Opland
o/\_ Honeywell, Inc., Phoenix, Arizona
<\__,\
">. | e-mail: opl...@saifr00.ateng.az.honeywell.com
` .-|
. \
. \ "...look to the memory of the ones gone before
.-| the light and the meaning of the voices on the wind."
. | - Voices on the Wind, Little Feat, 1986
Chris Mellor
In article <4nshat$o1s$1...@mhadg.production.compuserve.com>, Ed
Douglas <10042...@CompuServe.COM> writes
>It's not accurate to say that one in six dies climbing Everest.
I think it is Ed. It's probably also accurate to say one in a hundred dies
attempting Everest. The chances of getting chopped on or near or
returning from the top are much greater than just (!) getting through the
icefall.
I think the 1 in 6 statistic sums it up nicely. It is a bloddy dangerous peak.
Chris.
Chris Weaver
Those interested in a fairly detailed account of the Everest
tragedy should check out the cover story on the current issue of
Newsweek. There aren't many quotes from those involved, but it
describes the chronology of what happened pretty well. (as far as
I know)
I think that there is too much blame being tossed about, without
taking into account the real reason for the tragedy. According
to the different accounts of the story that I have heard, the
weather was unexpected and incredibly severe and there were
extremely heroic acts performed by numerous people. It seems petty
and pointless to lay blame in these circumstances.
Chris Weaver
Hugh Grierson
In article <4npt8p$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, zeeb...@aol.com says...
>Messner is one in a billion, the Wayne Gretzky of mountaineering.
Huh? Who's Gretzky (he asks rhetorically)?
David Lim
Ed Douglas wrote:
>
> It's not accurate to say that one in six dies climbing Everest.
> once giving a total of more than 750 ascents. Thousands of people
> have tried, however, and some of those that died did so without
> succeeding. To get a meaningful statistic you have to divide the
> number of people who have been there by the numbers of successful
> climbers. It probably works out at one in a hundred.
> Cheers
> Ed Douglas
Based on Liz Hawley's records at the Ministry of Tourism, Nepal, the
statistics of dying on Everest if you take climbers vs deaths is about
2-3%, a statistic echoed by similar studies done. There's an interesting
though outdated ( 1986 ) one done at the back of Reinhold Messner's
All the Fourteen Eight-thousanders which has similar stats.
The interesting thing is that on K2 ( an exception in a MAJOR way ),
your chances of getting killed as a climber shoots up to about 10%.
If you are a successful summitter, your chances of then dying ( this
often happens on the descent ) is one in seven; almost as bad as playing
Russian roulette with a revolver. For women on K2, its worse. For the
FIVE women ( heaps have done Everest ) who have climbed K2, three died
on it - Julie Tullis, Wolf Mrufka and Alison Hargreaves
K2, anyone?
Mike Perry
Hugh Grierson wrote:
> I remember also when Mark Whetu bivvied above 8700m on the North
> ridge with his friend and client Mike Rheinberger. Mike died the
> next day, and Mark survived with the loss of his toes.
For the record, Mike Rheinberger wasn't a client and although Mark Whetu is a guide by
profession, he was a member of a film crew rather than a guide on that expedition.
In general, my experience of obligations and responsibilities while climbing above 8,000m has
been that it was clearly understood by all involved that nobody could expect a climbing
partner to add to the already considerable risks of merely being at those altitudes by taking
on the burden of rescue. Of course, when things went off the rails people did put themselves
in extreme danger to help fellow climbers in trouble but team mates never expected that to
extend to dying as a consequence.
In my opinion, guiding adds no contractual obligation in this respect - after all it's a job
(and not a very well paid one, in some cases).
There was a responsibility that was clearly understood on every occasion I went above 8,000m:
'if you're getting into difficulty, turn around while you can still get down on your own'. It
was seen as completely unfair to proceed in those circumstances as it would at the least ruin
summit chances of team mates and possibly far worse.
And of course, almost nobody who gets into big trouble high on Everest survives.
Mike Perry
Craig Roberts
Halleluja Christian !
Struan Gray
Hugh Grierson asks:
>Huh? Who's Gretzky
Landowner in the Gunks area. Lets people sneak in to ice
climb. Dunno what he does for a living.
Struan
go...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Wolf. Mrowka was her nickname. It means 'ant' in Polish.
Cheers,
--Krzysztof
> K2, anyone?
go...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
Miodowicz-Wolf. Mrowka was her nickname. It means 'ant' in Polish. She
was kind of small.
Cheers,
--Krzysztof
> K2, anyone?
Steven Deem
On 21 May 1996, Chris Weaver wrote:
> I think that there is too much blame being tossed about, without
> taking into account the real reason for the tragedy. According
> to the different accounts of the story that I have heard, the
> weather was unexpected and incredibly severe and there were
> extremely heroic acts performed by numerous people. It seems petty
> and pointless to lay blame in these circumstances.
>
Its certainly much easier to blame it on the weather and ascribe heroism,
when in fact, mistakes may have been made that resulted in multiple
fatalities. The reason to discuss the issue is so that future climbers
avoid repeating any fatal miscues that may have been made.
Steve
Wolfgang Soergel
In article 63...@montage.co.nz, Mike Perry <mi...@montage.co.nz> writes:
[snip]
>In my opinion, guiding adds no contractual obligation in this respect - after all it's a job
>(and not a very well paid one, in some cases).
>
>There was a responsibility that was clearly understood on every occasion I went above 8,000m:
>'if you're getting into difficulty, turn around while you can still get down on your own'. It
>was seen as completely unfair to proceed in those circumstances as it would at the least ruin
>summit chances of team mates and possibly far worse.
>
>And of course, almost nobody who gets into big trouble high on Everest survives.
>
>Mike Perry
not in possession of the experience required) climbing at these altitudes
as well.
The problem then only is:
What about people who have not the ability to negotiate the area alone,
without guide, to return when they are in difficulty ? Should the
complete group abandon the attempt ? Should one guide go back with
the person in question , leaving the rest of the clients with
fewer assistance ? Just leave the person and hope the best ?
(The same could be applied to the question: What about when a guide
runs into trouble himself, such as Scott Fisher. It seems however
that at this occasion his team was well organized and lucky as they
made it all back, except Scott.)
For me , it is clear that i should not go to places, even with a guide,
where i would not be able to escape (go back, rapell,...) on my
own in case s::t happens. This does not devaluate the concept of guiding
in general or at 8000s in this case. But it requires responsibility
of guide and client to prevent such situations. Accidents will happen
nevertheless but lets reduce the stupid ones.
Donald Morley (Berkshire S)
Struan Gray (strua...@sljus.lu.se) wrote:
: Hugh Grierson asks:
:
: >Huh? Who's Gretzky
:
: Landowner in the Gunks area. Lets people sneak in to ice
: climb. Dunno what he does for a living.
Nah, that's Griffey! Gretzky's a hermit said to be living up on the
back side of Katahdin. Let's keep our facts straight on rec.climbing.
:
: Struan
--
Don Morley Don_M...@berkshire.sheffield.ma.us
Ritt Kellogg Mountain Program fax 413 229 3178
Berkshire School voice mail 413 229 8511 ext. 649
Sheffield, MA 01257
Eric Hirst
hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:
He's a well-known ice climber. I've seen him on television a bunch
of times, but they never seemed to show him on anything very steep,
so I never quite saw what the big deal was.
--
Eric Hirst
er...@u.washington.edu
http://weber.u.washington.edu/~eric/
Brendan Mumey
Eric Hirst (er...@u.washington.edu) wrote:
: >Huh? Who's Gretzky (he asks rhetorically)?
:
: He's a well-known ice climber. I've seen him on television a bunch
: of times, but they never seemed to show him on anything very steep,
: so I never quite saw what the big deal was.
The remarkable fact was that he used a single long alpenstock
with (get this) a wooden blade.
Hugh Grierson
In article <31A2DC...@montage.co.nz>, mi...@montage.co.nz says...
>For the record, Mike Rheinberger wasn't a client and although Mark Whetu is a guide by
>profession, he was a member of a film crew rather than a guide on that expedition.
Oops, apologies for my misunderstanding.
Thanks for the post. It's good to hear the opinion of someone who has been
there.
Rob Gendreau
In article <1996May22.114420.9316@ohstpy>, go...@ohstpy.mps.ohio-state.edu
wrote:
[snip Everest stats]
>> The interesting thing is that on K2 ( an exception in a MAJOR way ),
>> your chances of getting killed as a climber shoots up to about 10%.
>> If you are a successful summitter, your chances of then dying ( this
>> often happens on the descent ) is one in seven; almost as bad as playing
>> Russian roulette with a revolver. For women on K2, its worse. For the
>> FIVE women ( heaps have done Everest ) who have climbed K2, three died
>> on it - Julie Tullis, Wolf Mrufka and Alison Hargreaves
>>
>Just a little correction. The name of the second woman was Dobroslawa
>Miodowicz-Wolf. Mrowka was her nickname. It means 'ant' in Polish. She
>was kind of small.
>Cheers,
>--Krzysztof
>> K2, anyone?
I heard Kurt Diemberger speak about K2 last night; he showed slides
detailing his climbs on K2, including the awful summer of 1986 when Tullis
and Mrowka died. It was incredibly moving. Does anyone know where to get
his relatively recent book on K2? Marmot, the sponsor, didn't have it.
--
Rob Gendreau
gend...@holonet.net
hol...@xroads.com
Lars Johansson <la...@ikp.liu.se> wrote:.
>I recall reading somewhere that the death probability is 4% on average above
>8000 m, i.e. of all the people making a summit attempt on one of the
>8000+ mountains, 4% die either on the way up or down. I don't know how
>well founded this figure is or where I saw it (I might have been Rock & Ice).
>If someone knows for sure, please post it.
Rock and Ice, issue # 58 has an article "Is Climbing Really
Dangerous?" by Jeff Smoot, which has a table that shows that the
Fatality rate for peaks over 8000 meters is 4% (plus or minus). The
accident rate is over 5%.
Chris Weaver
Don't forget the funky crampons he uses!
Chris Weaver
David Harris
er...@u.washington.edu (Eric Hirst) wrote:
>hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:
>
>>In article <4npt8p$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, zeeb...@aol.com says...
>>>Messner is one in a billion, the Wayne Gretzky of mountaineering.
>
>>Huh? Who's Gretzky (he asks rhetorically)?
>
>He's a well-known ice climber. I've seen him on television a bunch
>of times, but they never seemed to show him on anything very steep,
>so I never quite saw what the big deal was.
I think he modified his crampons for speed, and uses some kind
of wood handled thing instead of an axe. Doesn't work well on the
steep, but sure is fast on the low-angle stuff. Heard he never uses a
rope when he's on ice either.
Don't understand the attraction myself, but it seems to appeal
to a lot of people. Sort of like competition climbing -- spectators,
prizes, hoopla...
D
Struan Gray
Donald Morley body checks:
>I wrote:
>: Hugh Grierson asks:
>:
>: >Huh? Who's Gretzky
>:
>: Landowner in the Gunks area. Lets people sneak in to ice
>: climb. Dunno what he does for a living.
>:
> Nah, that's Griffey! Gretzky's a hermit said to be living up
> on the back side of Katahdin. Let's keep our facts straight on
> rec.climbing.
Well I could have sworn my native bearer (Rich, I think he was
called: he runs a nice little shop in the local bazaar) said 'Gretzky'
but he had such a quaint accent it wouldn't surprise me to learn that
he meant something else. I find this a common problem in the more
primitive parts of the globe.
Struan
p...@vms.cis.pitt.edu
In response to Bruce Hildebrand's statement that:
>> However, it appears that in this Everest tragedy, the guides who died
>> stayed with their clients and the guides who left their clients lived.
Steven Deem <sd...@u.washington.edu> writes:
>
> I don't think you can draw this conclusion. It sounds like Scott Fisher
> was sick, and was left behind by both clients and other guides in his
> party, and eventually by his sherpa (we could certainly debate how or why
> that happened).....
I seem to have gotten two somewhat different stories on this. First I
heard that Scott Fisher went back (or stayed back) to help other parties
once his own clients were out of the storm. Then I heard the account
Steven Deem gives. Is the first account incorrect? Was it ever
reported that way or did I just misinterpret what I read? I would
appreciate any clarification that can be provided.
Phil Sidel
Paul R Kennedy
Chris Weaver <cwe...@erols.com> wrote:
>crha...@ix.netcom.com (Dingus Milktoast) wrote:
>>About 600 people have summitted Everest. About 125 people have died trying. So,
>>regardless of how prepared, how experienced, how benign the weather; there is still a
>>1 in 6 chance that a summit bid will result in death. I think it's something that has
>SNIP<
>Sorry Dingus, but your logic is wrong on the numbers. True, about 600
>people have SUMMITTED, and about 125 have died, but don't forget about the
>SNIP<
Yes I believe the actually percentage of deaths per climber is about 1:20. BTW, this is about average for the 8,000 M peaks.
Cheers
Paul
Paul R Kennedy
hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) wrote:
>In article <4npt8p$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, zeeb...@aol.com says...
>>Messner is one in a billion, the Wayne Gretzky of mountaineering.
>
>Huh? Who's Gretzky (he asks rhetorically)?
>
ZeebraTwo
In article <4o32sd$h...@newsstand.cit.cornell.edu>, Paul R Kennedy
<pr...@cornell.edu> writes:
>Subject: Re: EVEREST DEATHS
>From: Paul R Kennedy <pr...@cornell.edu>
>Date: 24 May 1996 01:20:13 GMT
He favors very low-angle ice ;> He uses the longest damned ice axe I've
ever seen, it's made of aluminum that looks like wood, and he carries it
with the business end dragging along the ground. Go figure. He also has
one really weird-looking set of crampons, which must be okay since he
never has to front-point.
Best of all -- he's turned his flat ice exploits into more than $6 million
a year not counting endorsements and royalties. Whatta guy!
Ice god...nawww. He and Meryl Streep could've been separated at birth.
Steve Yzerman--now there's an ice god!
Susann
"Life is better at 14,000 feet"
/\--soon to be 20,320 feet ~~}:->
Steven Deem
On 23 May 1996 p...@vms.cis.pitt.edu wrote:
>
> I seem to have gotten two somewhat different stories on this. First I
> heard that Scott Fisher went back (or stayed back) to help other parties
> once his own clients were out of the storm. Then I heard the account
> Steven Deem gives. Is the first account incorrect? Was it ever
> reported that way or did I just misinterpret what I read? I would
> appreciate any clarification that can be provided.
The first account was reported incorrectly. I suspect that people wanted
to believe that Scott died doing what he had done several times before:
going back to help other parties in distress. In fact, several
independent sources (Neal Biedlman, Jon Krakaur, Ed Viesturs) have
reported that Scott was having difficulty on the ascent, either due to
illness or severe fatigue from the previous days (weeks) of sheperding a
large group around. He was lagging behind everyone else (with a Sherpa),
and it sounds like he finally just laid down on the snow and gave up.
When he was found the next day, he was still alive but thought to be
unsavable, and therefore left to die.
Eric Breitenberger
In article <4nvr1q$l...@nntp4.u.washington.edu>, er...@u.washington.edu says...
>
>hugh_g...@trimble.co.nz (Hugh Grierson) writes:
>
>>In article <4npt8p$o...@newsbf02.news.aol.com>, zeeb...@aol.com says...
>>>Messner is one in a billion, the Wayne Gretzky of mountaineering.
>
>>Huh? Who's Gretzky (he asks rhetorically)?
>
>of times, but they never seemed to show him on anything very steep,
>so I never quite saw what the big deal was.
Speed. The big deal is his speed. On good water ice, Gretztky is at least
ten times as fast as Jeff Lowe.
Oh ... he does it all unroped, too.
One more thing - he only uses one tool. Two would slow him down, I guess.
No wonder they call him the Great One.
- EB
Dingus Milktoast
The most amazing thing about Gretzky was that he was able to do so much ice
work in Los Angeles! I'd like to see Greg Lowe or Marc Twight do that!
DMT
jppenner@undefined
>Hugh Grierson asks:
>
>>Huh? Who's Gretzky
The best hockey player who has ever lived so far. But let's get back to climbing now.
frederick a weihe
> > >In article <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, david lim
> > ><dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
> > >
> > >>I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
> > >>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of endorsement
> > >>from his respective national alpine association saying he's
> > >>got what it takes to do the peak.
> >
> > That would be absofuckinglutely ridiculous. Is this what climbing is
> > coming to?
> >
> > By the way, I'm not saying that what you say won't happen, I'm just saying
> > fight it if it does.
> >
> > Christian
Unfortunately, for many regulatory efforts, what starts out as well intentioned intervention would become personalized and politicized. Higher-ups in clubs like Alpine and Speleological organizations often get the big-fish-in-small-pond syndrome; they become petty tyrants whose personal likes and dislikes become law. Don't pretend that these organizations are magic black boxes from which impartial decisions eminate. Imagine instead trying to distribute permits by having a debate on this newsgroup. Imagine
applying for a permit from a committee, the traditionalist chair of which once cut all the bolts from your route at GeeWhiz Rock, or something like that. Or perhaps you want the same endorsement that is wanted by the committee's old pal from their young lion days in Boulder Canyon. Who'll get the endosement?
I assure you, this is how these things work...everywhere, from publising poetry in your college literary jounal, to getting $10 billion for a dam in your district.
Cheers,
Fritz Weihe
--
::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::
Frederick A. Weihe
we...@umich.edu
o...@acs.bu.edu
The problem then only is: What about people who have not the ability to
negotiate the area alone, without guide, to return when they are in
difficulty ?
What would the person have to do if the guide became incapacitated
(sp?), or in this case died. The person must still make their way back
without a guide. It all come down to the fact, each person is
responsible for their own safety first.
--
scared to death no reason why
do whatever to get me by
think about the things i've said
read the page, it's cold and dead
take me home...
JONATHAN DAVID WHITE
> > > >In article <4nl1uf$d...@newsvr.cyberway.com.sg>, david lim
> > > ><dav...@cyberway.com.sg> writes:
> > > >
> > > >>I foresee, on Everest anyway, a requirement that each climber
> > > >>irrespective of what group he belongs to obtains a letter of endorsement
> > > >>from his respective national alpine association saying he's
> > > >>got what it takes to do the peak.
> > >
> > > That would be absofuckinglutely ridiculous. Is this what climbing is
> > > coming to?
> > >
> > > By the way, I'm not saying that what you say won't happen, I'm just saying
> > > fight it if it does.
> > >
> > > Christian
I don't know if you're aware, but we've been fighting off the thin end of
the wedge in Europe this year. Some Italian MEP came up with the notion
that _everyone_ ought to pass a proficiency test before they could cross
the snowline or step onto a glacier. It seems that there was an attempt
to slip this through quietly, buried under some other proposed
legislation, but fortunately, someone noticed it (by accident).
The British Mountaineering Council got together with the other national
representative bodies and have lobbied MEPs to get the idea stopped. I'm
pleased to say that it seems to have worked (for the time being, until
someone else comes up with another idea like it).
Whether or not this will emerge outside the EU is difficult to say, but
anywhere that there are politicians with nothing better to, the risk is
present.
Make the best of it while you still can.
Cheers,
Jonathan
Real0eal
just another way to make some cash.